The Scottish Independence referendum

[OldNick]

Thats it, I reckon.

 

Westminster will give them a few more powers like an owner throws a bone to a dog.

 

By the time this gets anywhere near being on the table again (reckon 10 yrs), reduction in oil reserves will make Scotland even more unviable than it is now.

 

Laughing at Pie-Face and Wee Jimmy Krankie, but recognise the whinging and blaming the English for everything wont stop....

When the oil is close to running out, they will be raising their own finances through taxation and the Barnet formula will be redundant. Personally I want the Scots to be happy, they have voted for the Union and so need to be rewarded or not punished.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Well the Scottish people have spoken and they've said 'no' - and by a margin that was much more decisive that the final opinion poll's suggested. Although I'm more than a little disappointed to see quite so many Scots voting to break up this 300 year old union of ours I am pleased to see Alex Salmond accepting the result in good grace - he's a truly dangerous man but I don't think he's the villain some depict him to be. I can only hope that calls for another referendum on this same subject don't reappear for many decades to come because this nation needs to rediscover some sense of stability.

 

Why were the poll's significantly wrong? I think the aggressive assertion of Scots nationalism by the 'yes' camp intimidated many union supporters into silence. Pollsters might also need to reconsider the value of asking a 1000 people what they think and drawing broader conclusions based on a number quite that small.

 

Although poor old Alistair Darling did the leg work, much of the credit for this result will go to Gordon Brown. Okay he's not a popular politician in England of course, but his last minute injection of some much needed energy and passion into the faltering 'Better Together' campaign may have made a important difference. The Prime Minister also made an impressively statesmanlike contribution I think - indeed I'll bet a whole English £1 he will win next year's general election.

 

So the union endures then, a little bruised and battered perhaps, but still very much alive. Attention will soon turn to England and the notorious 'West Lothian' question ... and the answer to that nice little problem will have more profound consequences on these islands than anything we've seen today.

[buctootim]

Interesting debate now about being 'fair' to England. There are wider implications than simply stopping non English MPs voting on English issues. No party seems to want an English parliament, but its hard to see how real devolution can work without it.

[CB Fry]

Despite their very best efforts, the No campaign have won.

 

I am no fan of Farage, but he's just described it as a pig's ear by Cameron and Co which is pretty accurate, I'd say.

[scotty]

So, the Scots have voted the way we all expected.

 

With their wallets.

[alpine_saint]

When the oil is close to running out, they will be raising their own finances through taxation and the Barnet formula will be redundant. Personally I want the Scots to be happy, they have voted for the Union and so need to be rewarded or not punished.

 

Who suggested punsihing them ? I just think that whilst Westminster is taking more care about the Sweaties from now on, it has to give some attention to other areas of the Union, like the sense of injustice about the Barnett formula and the West Lothian question..

[alpine_saint]

So, the Scots have voted the way we all expected.

 

With their wallets.

 

[John Boy Saint]

In a different vein we won't have Salmond hijacking the Ryder Cup opening and closing ceremonies with smugness.

[saintbletch]

Selfishly, this is the best result for the UK. Months of uncertainty wouldn't have been good. But I can't help feel for the Yes voters, and when 40 odd percent of the population are opposed to the other 50 odd percent on something so fundamental, then it will surely create tensions and issues for years to come.

 

Interesting debate now about being 'fair' to England. There are wider implications than simply stopping non English MPs voting on English issues. No party seems to want an English parliament, but its hard to see how real devolution can work without it.

 

Yes BTT, if I were feeling particularly generous this morning I might say that team Cameron might just have salvaged something from what at the time looked like an embarrassing u-turn to offer a late-in-the-day Devo-max.

 

Forcing through an English-only vote on English-only issues would be very damaging for Labour.

 

If I were feeling incredibly generous, I might wonder if Dave and his strategist foresaw this when he corralled the other two nodding dog leaders to vow to give Devo-max powers.

 

It would be quite a sop to Tories annoyed at more powers for Scotland, if Dave could ensure that Labour lost the power of its Scottish MPs to vote in domestic English issues.

 

Has Dave played a blinder here?

 

How would Miliband and co vote on "English devolution" - Turkeys and Xmas and all that?

[Lorne Malvo]

At least the Scots gave it 110% to be fair.

 

[badgerx16]

As a direct descendant of a prominent reiver family, I am glad that the open borders will remain.

[ericofarabia]

At least the Scots gave it 110% to be fair.

 

 

LOL

[pap]

Where do we go from here, then?

 

I agree with the PM; no disputes, no reruns - but the fact remains that 1.6m Scots voted to get out. Difficult to tell how many people wanted extra powers devolved, and voted "no" because they were offered up last week.

 

There will be a lot of clamouring from people outside Scotland about the additional funding they'll get, and uproar from the Scots if we renege on our deal, so it'll be interesting to see how things pan out. Around 40% of English people (according to the polls) already think that Scotland gets too much funding, compared to around 10% of Scots that think the same.

 

I think one of the most depressing things about the campaign is seeing the English reaction to Scottish socially-oriented programs like free higher education. Too many ask "why do they get that?" instead of "why don't we get that?". In that sense, it's a shame that the Scots did not vote yes. A socially-oriented (as opposed to profit-oriented) sovereign state could have been a moderating influence down here.

[buctootim]

As a direct descendant of a prominent reiver family, I am glad that the open borders will remain.

 

People born 500 years ago typically have around 50m direct descendants.

[badgerx16]

People born 500 years ago typically have around 50m direct descendants.

 

Does that mean we're probably related ?

[buctootim]

Does that mean we're probably related ?

 

Yep. We're cousins in a family with Queen Lizzie, Lindsay Lohan and the fat freak from Big Brother. Christmas round at yours could be interesting.

[Polaroid Saint]

Well, that's got to be the result everyone 'expected' really, was a little touch and go for a bit there when the registrations to vote went through the roof (fears of an obama2008 style event) But all good and the youth vote was, it appears, a strong No too.

 

Give the Scots slightly increased powers on levying taxes, and leave it there (seriously, Cameron at al may have promised a quick timetable on this, but it will be watered down by the time it becomes legislation in late 2015; and that depends on the next government too) Iwill predict a fairly comfortable labour win at this stage and a stronger tie between all home nations. The only thing that will be an issue, for me, will be to stop the right wing clamouring for 'English Votes For English Issues'. No one wants an English executive.

 

What we want (need) is a British constitution and proportional representation to fully replace the FPTP system.

[farawaysaint]

People born 500 years ago typically have around 50m direct descendants.

 

I was proud of my relation to Robert the Bruce, don't ruin this for me

[bridge too far]

I was proud of my relation to Robert the Bruce, don't ruin this for me

 

I'm related to him too!

[farawaysaint]

I'm related to him too!

 

The one sky reporter also mentioned his relation to him, one big happy family

[Tony F]

 

Forcing through an English-only vote on English-only issues would be very damaging for Labour.

 

If I were feeling incredibly generous, I might wonder if Dave and his strategist foresaw this when he corralled the other two nodding dog leaders to vow to give Devo-max powers.

 

It would be quite a sop to Tories annoyed at more powers for Scotland, if Dave could ensure that Labour lost the power of its Scottish MPs to vote in domestic English issues.

 

Has Dave played a blinder here?

 

I think you'll find that, if things go in this direction, MPs from Wales and NI will also be excluded from votes on English issues which will completely overturn Labour's apple cart

[pap]

Well, that's got to be the result everyone 'expected' really, was a little touch and go for a bit there when the registrations to vote went through the roof (fears of an obama2008 style event) But all good and the youth vote was, it appears, a strong No too.

 

Give the Scots slightly increased powers on levying taxes, and leave it there (seriously, Cameron at al may have promised a quick timetable on this, but it will be watered down by the time it becomes legislation in late 2015; and that depends on the next government too) Iwill predict a fairly comfortable labour win at this stage and a stronger tie between all home nations. The only thing that will be an issue, for me, will be to stop the right wing clamouring for 'English Votes For English Issues'. No one wants an English executive.

 

What we want (need) is a British constitution and proportional representation to fully replace the FPTP system.

 

Don't think it'll happen, especially after the AV vote.

 

Quite depressing really. I often moan about the Conservatives not actually conserving much, but they've kicked two large constitutional questions into the long grass.

[Batman]

Well, it was interesting viewing. It's clear from the off that it was going to be a NO vote

 

As the reports on the ground was that Salmond was defeated in his own back yard, the SNP failed to in big in any ward (bar maybe Dundee)

 

Very early on SNP HQ was very gloomy and with the NO main gathering was "quietly confident" but interesting viewing all the same. More so when Glasgow was a great deal closer than predicted and sturgeon pretty much stormed off.

 

One Labour Party member was on facebook last night answering questions. She said that the libdems and Tories did well to secure their core votes up there. It was the real fight to get the undecided labour support back onside. The feedback she had was that Gordon brown and George Galloway were the main players in getting those people back. What they did not expect was to have Glasgow as close as it was, and to win outright in places where the SNP control everything, or in Salmonds own back yard.

 

The writing was on the wall for the SNP when Salmond refused to turn up down his local counting office as he got word he had lost that one

Edited 19 September, 2014 by Batman

[Halo Stickman]

I'm related to him too!

 

Are we or are we not related to Robert the Bruce?

 

Each of us has 2 parents, 4 (2x2) grandparents, 8 (2x2x2) great grandparents, 16 (2x2x2x2) great great grandparents … (rising 2 to the power of x for every generation)

 

Let’s say an average generation lasts 25 years.

 

Robert the Bruce died in 1329 (let’s say this is 27 generations ago)

 

So back then each of us had (2 to the power of 27) great, great … grandparents, which is 134,217,728, let’s round this to 134 million.

 

Hang on, the population of Britain c1329 is estimated as only 4 million!

 

This can only mean one or all of the following:

 

1/ We’re all probably related to Robert the Bruce.

 

2/ We’re all definitely inbred

 

3/ I’m sh1t at maths.

[Lorne Malvo]

Each of us has 2 parents, 4 (2x2) grandparents, 8 (2x2x2) great grandparents, 16 (2x2x2x2) great great grandparents … (rising 2 to the power of x for every generation)

 

Not in Portsmouth.

[Whitey Grandad]

I was proud of my relation to Robert the Bruce, don't ruin this for me

 

I share a name!

[alpine_saint]

Well, it was interesting viewing. It's clear from the off that it was going to be a NO vote

 

As the reports on the ground was that Salmond was defeated in his own back yard, the SNP failed to in big in any ward (bar maybe Dundee)

 

Very early on SNP HQ was very gloomy and with the NO main gathering was "quietly confident" but interesting viewing all the same. More so when Glasgow was a great deal closer than predicted and sturgeon pretty much stormed off.

 

One Labour Party member was on facebook last night answering questions. She said that the libdems and Tories did well to secure their core votes up there. It was the real fight to get the undecided labour support back onside. The feedback she had was that Gordon brown and George Galloway were the main players in getting those people back. What they did not expect was to have Glasgow as close as it was, and to win outright in places where the SNP control everything, or in Salmonds own back yard.

 

The writing was on the wall for the SNP when Salmond refused to turn up down his local counting office as he got word he had lost that one

 

"Scotland the Brave"

 

Pie-Face leaves Wee Jimmy Krankie to have the cameras shoved up her nose.

 

I think he may be fatally wounded. He's proven himself to be a bully and a bad loser; not the sort of First Minister they are going to need right now.

 

Regards to Galloway; Labour would be well-advised to build new bridges with him, I reckon they will need him in mainstream Scottish politics now.

[pap]

"Scotland the Brave"

 

Pie-Face leaves Wee Jimmy Krankie to have the cameras shoved up her nose.

 

I think he may be fatally wounded. He's proven himself to be a bully and a bad loser; not the sort of First Minister they are going to need right now.

 

Regards to Galloway; Labour would be well-advised to build new bridges with him, I reckon they will need him in mainstream Scottish politics now.

 

Has SNP enjoyed its peak? Interesting question. As long as they keep doling out decent entitlements, people will keep voting for them. Assuming that Westminster grants further devolution, they can spin this loss as a win over the long-term.

 

Labour won't build bridges with Galloway. He's one of Israel's fiercest critics, which is politically toxic in some circles. I do think that many in Scotland will abandon SNP for the 2015 General Election, swinging back to Labour. Couldn't get rid of the Tories through independence. The general election is the next big opportunity.

[badgerx16]

I think you'll find that, if things go in this direction, MPs from Wales and NI will also be excluded from votes on English issues which will completely overturn Labour's apple cart

 

It might depend on how effectively UKIP undermine the Tories.

[alpine_saint]

Has SNP enjoyed its peak? Interesting question. As long as they keep doling out decent entitlements, people will keep voting for them. Assuming that Westminster grants further devolution, they can spin this loss as a win over the long-term.

 

Labour won't build bridges with Galloway. He's one of Israel's fiercest critics, which is politically toxic in some circles. I do think that many in Scotland will abandon SNP for the 2015 General Election, swinging back to Labour. Couldn't get rid of the Tories through independence. The general election is the next big opportunity.

 

That's all Scottish politics is about, is it ? Getting rid of the Tories ?

 

How much more "getting rid" is needed, anyway ? They only have one seat.

 

Give it a rest, pap, and accept/respect the result.

[SuperMikey]

I think ultimately this vote was all about stick or twist, but without the real information on the table about what independence would actually mean for people they chose to play it safe. There will still be a lot of anti-Westminster sentiment within the Scottish populous which will need to be addressed in the run up for the general election in 8 months, but like Pap says we will probably see a swing away from the SNP back towards Labour - meaning that Miliband will have to pull his finger out and earn the votes that people will be willing to cast his way.

[pap]

That's all Scottish politics is about, is it ? Getting rid of the Tories ?

 

How much more "getting rid" is needed, anyway ? They only have one seat.

 

Give it a rest, pap, and accept/respect the result.

 

I do accept and respect the result, and am encouraged by some of the talk of constitutional change for the whole of Britain. This poll, originally a Scottish matter only, could have implications that change the way that this country is governed.

 

The Scots are re-engaged with democracy, although it remains to be seen where all the SNP votes will go in 2015, if anywhere.

Edited 19 September, 2014 by pap

[Whitey Grandad]

I do accept and respect the result, and am encouraged by some of the talk of constitutional change for the whole of Britain. This poll, originally a Scottish matter only, could have implications that change the way that this country is governed.

 

The Scots are re-engaged with democracy, although it remains to be seen where all the SNP votes will go in 2015, if anywhere.

 

How much should a vote taken in one small part of Britain affect constitutional change for the whole nation state if the rest of the people have not had a say in the matter?

[saintbletch]

I think you'll find that, if things go in this direction, MPs from Wales and NI will also be excluded from votes on English issues which will completely overturn Labour's apple cart

 

Yes, good point.

 

I'm guessing that if a Westminster vote relates to issues that are completely; fiscally, legislatively or geographically English, then the other nations of the Union will not be able to vote. The same would be true if that region already has separately devolved powers relating to the issue.

 

It will be fascinating to see how this plays out, because the Tories have certainly put Labour in a difficult position, and as was said below if you add UKIP into the mix, it's really spiced things up nicely.

[saintbletch]

How much should a vote taken in one small part of Britain affect constitutional change for the whole nation state if the rest of the people have not had a say in the matter?

 

Because in order to secure that result, funding and further autonomous powers have been promised to devolved Scotland?

 

These powers will re-raise the West Lothian issue, and without further recognition of England as a separate nation, I'm sure that the English electorate will feel it's unfair.

 

Cameron will have to appease the unrest in his party, and presumably counter the undoubted accusations from UKIP that the Tories have mollified the Scots at the expense of the English.

 

Both major parties are now stating that England should be treated as a separate case, so I can't see anything but wider constitutional change; perhaps even down at the city/county level.

[norwaysaint]

 

What we want (need) is a British constitution and proportional representation to fully replace the FPTP system.

 

Common misconception.

 

Britain has a constitution. It's different to that of the US and many other countries because Britain has never been liberated from another power. Whereas the US, France and Norway all declared themselves free and independent and had to draw up a new constitution, Britain has built up it's own constitution through a number of documents over the years, one of the first of such being the Magna Carta. It's not all in one document, but it's all there in writing, creating the foundation for the laws of the land and no worse for it.

 

PR may be more fair, but what you would never have again would be a strong government. If you've enjoyed having a coalition, it's for you, but it would often involve more than two parties as the vote gets split more and more once you know a vote for any party counts equally. The biggest winners of PR would be UKIP without a doubt.

[Batman]

It seems old one eye, Brooon is popular again up there. Can see him being first minister in the future.

[Torres]

Because in order to secure that result, funding and further autonomous powers have been promised to devolved Scotland?

 

These powers will re-raise the West Lothian issue, and without further recognition of England as a separate nation, I'm sure that the English electorate will feel it's unfair.

 

He's already promised exactly that for England.

 

Cameron will have to appease the unrest in his party, and presumably counter the undoubted accusations from UKIP that the Tories have mollified the Scots at the expense of the English.

 

This has given him the opportunity that he wanted - nay needed - to do exactly that. Expect to see the English promised more power to control what happens in England without "interference" from the rest of the UK and (true or not) Brussels in an attempt to win support and votes back from UKIP in advance of next May.

 

Far from being "done for" as people suggested here just 2 days ago, Cameron will probably come out of this strengthened both within his party and English (at least) politics.

[Ken Tone]

I do accept and respect the result, and am encouraged by some of the talk of constitutional change for the whole of Britain. This poll, originally a Scottish matter only, could have implications that change the way that this country is governed.

 

The Scots are re-engaged with democracy, although it remains to be seen where all the SNP votes will go in 2015, if anywhere.

 

It's a strange sort of democracy though, when the views of a mere 1.6 million people (the total yes vote) in part of the country appear to have caused major constitutional change to the other 50-60 million, who have had no say in the matter.

 

It makes you wonder what would happen if there was a referendum for independence for England, leaving the 'rump' UK as Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales. What sort of promises would be made to stop a yes vote there?

[Batman]

Just saying on sky news that in a perverse way, the yes campaign have probably saved the Union for countless years to come.

It needed change and now it is coming for everyone

[Wes Tender]

The only thing that will be an issue, for me, will be to stop the right wing clamouring for 'English Votes For English Issues'. No one wants an English executive.

 

What we want (need) is a British constitution and proportional representation to fully replace the FPTP system.

 

Well, we've already had our referendum on changing from the FPTP system and rejected it relatively recently, so a bit premature for you to be suggesting that we change it.

 

Regarding your assertion that it is the right wing of politics that wants "English votes for English issues", how do you reach that conclusion? The Scots have their own devolved Parliament and the Welsh have their own Executive through their Assembly. So please explain why it is so unreasonable for the English to have their own Parliament to have jurisdiction solely on English matters devoid of interference from MPs representing Scottish and Welsh voters.

 

On whose behalf are you talking when you say that "no one" wants an English Executive? I'm pretty sure that Labour don't want it, because without their Scottish and Welsh MPs, they would hardly ever achieve a majority in an English Parliament. The Lib Dems probably wouldn't want it either, but they're largely irrelevant, or at least they will be after the next General Election. But I see no reason why the Conservatives would not favour it, or indeed UKIP come to that. So it seems that nobody wants it, apart from two of the four main parties. I class UKIP as a main party, because they are probably now ahead of the Lib Dems.

 

But as the Scots have had the benefit of a Referendum, the ultimate tool of democracy, why shouldn't we English be allowed a Referendum on having our own devolved English Parliament? Rather than listening to the likes of you telling us what we do or don't want.

 

I can see this becoming a burning issue for the General Election, pushed initially by UKIP and forcing the Conservatives to join them in what will be a very populist policy.

[holepuncture]

F*cking yellow bellied Scottish independence cowards, all bluster and no action!

 

toothless pussies need to keep their mouths shut from now on, they had their chance and they f*cking bottled it.

 

Farage was gobbing off first thing this morning, heaping pressure on the overly spoilt scots

 

LOL

[Whitey Grandad]

Abolish the House of Lords and use the facilities for an English parliament. Easy.

[buctootim]

what would happen if there was a referendum for independence for England, leaving the 'rump' UK as Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales. What sort of promises would be made to stop a yes vote there?

 

The obvious answer is 'nothing' because the economics don't work. Presently England (c50 million) can subsidise Scotland (5m) without it costing too much per head. Getting Scotland, Wales and NI (c10m total) to provide meaningful sweeteners to England is clearly a non starter

Edited 19 September, 2014 by buctootim

[Lord Duckhunter]

There's already been a Sweaty on Radio calling for another vote if the UK vote to leave the EU.

[pap]

It seems old one eye, Brooon is popular again up there. Can see him being first minister in the future.

 

Did Gordon Brown do anything else than be partially sighted? Jibes at his ocular capacity seem pretty common.

[View From The Top]

Did Gordon Brown do anything else than be partially sighted? Jibes at his ocular capacity seem pretty common.

 

He's certainly no favourite of mine but I thought he spoke with force, passion, eloquence and common sense.

[pap]

He's certainly no favourite of mine but I thought he spoke with force, passion, eloquence and common sense.

 

I was being flippant anyway. Boiled down, Jamie was taking the píss out of the disabled.

 

He did well up there.

[View From The Top]

I was being flippant anyway. Boiled down, Jamie was taking the píss out of the disabled.

 

He did well up there.

 

I know. Just pointing out that I thought he'd delivered when required.

[Ohio Saint]

This result has thoroughly confused some of the people I work with who were convinced that the Scots would passionately follow Mel Gibson to the bitter end to finally break the chains of a domineering English tyranny.