The Scottish Independence referendum

[Whitey Grandad]

I don't know why you're responding to me when you could be selling Batman the Tower Of London.

 

I thought you liked conspiracies

[SuperMikey]

It's odd being described as bitter when I honestly do not give a toss about an independent Scotland. I think they are fools if they vote yes and I expect it to hurt but I'm certainly not bitter about it. The UK needs to look after their own interests and if that means hurting the Scots who have decided to go alone then so be it.

 

They will almost certainly vote no though, making this conversation irrelevant.

 

I don't think that it's in anyone's best interests to "inflict the most pain we can" on Scotland should they vote for independence. Completely pointless and needlessly aggressive comment to make.

[Torres]

Little Englanders must have their vengeance.

 

I'm pretty sure you're not that stupid, so stop being a tit.

[Torres]

I don't think that it's in anyone's best interests to "inflict the most pain we can" on Scotland should they vote for independence. Completely pointless and needlessly aggressive comment to make.

 

Rather Scottish pain than English, Welsh or NIrish though.

[Torres]

 

Either way Salmond has played a blinder (in a Francis Urquhart/Frank Underwood sort-of-a-way).

 

Entirely agreed - he wins regardless of the result tomorrow. A Yes makes him the master of all he surveys (and the being the arrogant, power-crazed, egotistical cock-wobble that he is, that's what he really really wants) whilsy a No gives him greater powers at the cost of the rest of the UK with no cost to Scotland.

[SuperMikey]

Rather Scottish pain than English, Welsh or NIrish though.

 

I don't think those are the only options..

[Torres]

I don't think those are the only options..

 

Which is where you're going wrong. There is no solution in the event of Scottish independence that is pain-free for all concerned.

[Hockey_saint]

No it isn't. Scotland getting screwed over is a consequence of it but the motivation- as has been pointed out above- will be to do what is best for the UK. If we had similar negotiations with other countries than that is what we would do so why should Scotland be any different simply because we had a shared history?

 

Well, if they do vote YES, Scotland will have screwed us over with a perpetual Tory government so I say screw them over as much as we can and with every opportunity we take; as you say, they'll be nothing to us then so why not?

[pap]

I'm pretty sure you're not that stupid, so stop being a tit.

 

Plenty of evidence to back it up. Check the "robust" positions of the No supporters on here.

 

Rather Scottish pain than English, Welsh or NIrish though.

 

Like the Poll Tax?

[pap]

Well, if they do vote YES, Scotland will have screwed us over with a perpetual Tory government so I say screw them over as much as we can and with every opportunity we take; as you say, they'll be nothing to us then so why not?

 

Untrue. Only two post-war general elections would have gone differently.

[Torres]

Like the Poll Tax?

 

Lab rats

[Whitey Grandad]

Which is where you're going wrong. There is no solution in the event of Scottish independence that is pain-free for all concerned.

 

This is the sad truth.

[pap]

Lab rats

 

Still a factor now. The PM called the experiment "egregious".

[Hockey_saint]

Untrue. Only two post-war general elections would have gone differently.

 

Well, you can find stats to prove and disprove that as much as anything else. Either way, I'd like to know who the magic fairy is going to be who's going to conjure up all this money they think they have for all these services they now can't get.

[CB Fry]

Little Englanders must have their vengeance.

Can you give us a quick precis of the mindset of all Yes voters and reassure us that bitterness or vengeance has not crossed any of their kind hearted positive minds?

[Hockey_saint]

Can you give us a quick precis of the mindset of all Yes voters and reassure us that bitterness or vengeance has not crossed any of their kind hearted positive minds?

 

Either way, if they win, there WILL be bitterness and vengeance on both sides.

[hypochondriac]

I don't think that it's in anyone's best interests to "inflict the most pain we can" on Scotland should they vote for independence. Completely pointless and needlessly aggressive comment to make.

 

By inflict the most pain I mean being the most aggressive that we can be to stand up for the UK and ensure that we get the best deal and therefore Scotland the worst. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

[pap]

Can you give us a quick precis of the mindset of all Yes voters and reassure us that bitterness or vengeance has not crossed any of their kind hearted positive minds?

 

Alas, no - but then, neither am I delivering up the universal set of English people either.

[Batman]

The pubs have been given extended license tomorrow night (apparently) up there

 

What can go wrong :-)

 

 

Either way, I expect reports of fighting, intimidation and general nastiness tomorrow

 

God know what will happen Friday and sat

Edited 17 September, 2014 by Batman

[pap]

By inflict the most pain I mean being the most aggressive that we can be to stand up for the UK and ensure that we get the best deal and therefore Scotland the worst. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

 

Nuke Edinburgh?

 

They prolly won't work, y'know

[SuperMikey]

Which is where you're going wrong. There is no solution in the event of Scottish independence that is pain-free for all concerned.

 

That's incredibly perspicacious of you. Why don't we wait and see a) if the vote passes and b) what the terms of independence are before deciding if it's going to be so painful.

[SuperMikey]

By inflict the most pain I mean being the most aggressive that we can be to stand up for the UK and ensure that we get the best deal and therefore Scotland the worst. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

 

I don't think automatically giving Scotland the worst deal gives the UK the best deal though. Would you rather have a doomed-to-fail country at the border or one that can actually give something back to the UK in terms of industry and trade in the future? The choices are there for both, but there's no point in being needlessly bullish when more reasonable terms could actually be in the UK's best interests going forward.

[Torres]

That's incredibly perspicacious of you. Why don't we wait and see a) if the vote passes and b) what the terms of independence are before deciding if it's going to be so painful.

 

Good idea Mikey. Mods, you can close this thread for the moment while we all go and have a cup of tea and wait and see what happens.

[SuperMikey]

Good idea Mikey. Mods, you can close this thread for the moment while we all go and have a cup of tea and wait and see what happens.

 

Good idea. Mine's a latte

[Torres]

Good idea. Mine's a latte

 

Alright. I'm not paying though, looks like I'm going to need all my money to pay for the free education of Scotch uni students :-(

[scotty]

 

Do you think we will agree to a shared pound? Whoever agrees to that will be committing political suicide.

 

That had occurred to me as well. Whatever nonsense salmond spouts about "common interests" and how the UK will suddenly come to their senses after a yes vote, all three parties have nailed their colours so firmly to the mast against any idea of currency union that I really don't see how any of them could back down now, regardless of pragmatism. Not just the leaders, but the party which did it would become unelectable. I honestly can't see that happening, so scotland would be left with the euro, or a quick transition to its own currency/central bank. Given salmonds wholehearted espousal of an independent scotland moving immediately into the eurozone a few years ago, and his subsequent massive u-turn which he glosses over whenever he's asked about it, I'm guessing it will be the latter.

[Batman]

He was asked again what would he do if a currency union did not go his way.

 

He dismissed it and said it would otherwise he would make sure Scotland defaulted on its debt obligations

 

When it was suggested that not having any say in your currency, and being an international debt defaulter would be suicide in international markets and business, he just dismissed it and said Scotland is one of the richest nations on earth.

[Whitey Grandad]

That had occurred to me as well. Whatever nonsense salmond spouts about "common interests" and how the UK will suddenly come to their senses after a yes vote, all three parties have nailed their colours so firmly to the mast against any idea of currency union that I really don't see how any of them could back down now, regardless of pragmatism. Not just the leaders, but the party which did it would become unelectable. I honestly can't see that happening, so scotland would be left with the euro, or a quick transition to its own currency/central bank. Given salmonds wholehearted espousal of an independent scotland moving immediately into the eurozone a few years ago, and his subsequent massive u-turn which he glosses over whenever he's asked about it, I'm guessing it will be the latter.

 

Joining the Eurozone will probably take longer than they might think:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11099167/Spanish-warn-independent-Scotland-would-get-euro-not-pound.html

[WindsorSaint]

Macedonia

 

Known as Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia or FYR Macedonia

 

Scotland (if there is a Yes vote)

 

Former UK...

[100%Red&White]

I want a 'Yes' vote if only so we don't have to put up with all the sucking up/apologising to the Jocks if they vote to remain.

 

But I fear a resounding 'No' and Westminster forever bending over backwards for them, they're going to get their cake and eat it too.

[Whitey Grandad]

Macedonia

 

Known as Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia or FYR Macedonia

 

Scotland (if there is a Yes vote)

 

Former UK...

 

I like the sound of that

[Viking Warrior]

Thanks Alpine your post made me laugh and cheered me up .

 

Im fed up with all they yes no bickering.

Salomnd and his vigelanties have a consistent strtegy of ridiculing any thing the better together campaign say, and use the sound bite it is scaremongering

along with the constant anti tory soundbite

 

we have the three main newspapers camped up here , as its thought we will be first area to declare the result.

 

 

 

You really are an odd bugger, Scousehampton.

 

Sometimes you really overplay the anti-establishment Millitant Tendency crap..

[Whitey Grandad]

we have the three main newspapers camped up here , as its thought we will be first area to declare the result.

That'll be a NO then.

 

How long before the Shetlands, Orkneys and outer Isles start pushing for self-determination?

 

From what I was told the Orcadians feel more affinity to Norway than they do to Edinburgh. Is this so?

[Batman]

Gordon brown has a shyte PM but he is a very good public speaker.

 

But none of them come close to Galloway on this matter

 

Some professor was on sky news just a now and he expects a NO vote

 

He analysed the data in the run up to the last 14 elections very similar to this and the equivalent to a YES vote in all of those were always the more vocal but their share of the vote was always exaggerated in the run up opinion polls. Where as those who would vote the same as tomorrow's NO voters are always more understated about it.

 

Unsure voters also tend to be more cautious. When it comes to it.

Edited 17 September, 2014 by Batman

[Lord Duckhunter]

That had occurred to me as well. Whatever nonsense salmond spouts about "common interests" and how the UK will suddenly come to their senses after a yes vote, all three parties have nailed their colours so firmly to the mast against any idea of currency union that I really don't see how any of them could back down now, regardless of pragmatism. Not just the leaders, but the party which did it would become unelectable. I honestly can't see that happening, so scotland would be left with the euro, or a quick transition to its own currency/central bank. Given salmonds wholehearted espousal of an independent scotland moving immediately into the eurozone a few years ago, and his subsequent massive u-turn which he glosses over whenever he's asked about it, I'm guessing it will be the latter.

 

If Salmond thinks the English will allow their central bank to be lender of last resort to a foreign country , he really is deluded.

 

The only credible option he had is to join the euro and the ECB fulfilling that function. I don't really understand why Salmond didn't propose joining the euro . I know its toxic, but the reason its toxic is that its a currency union without economic union. Which is exactly what salmond proposes by keeping the £. The only difference is that the eurozone nations won't turn round and say they can't join.

[hypochondriac]

I want a 'Yes' vote if only so we don't have to put up with all the sucking up/apologising to the Jocks if they vote to remain.

 

But I fear a resounding 'No' and Westminster forever bending over backwards for them, they're going to get their cake and eat it too.

 

Once they have voted to remain we must ensure that they get as little as possible. There will be no sucking up imo

[saintbletch]

That had occurred to me as well. Whatever nonsense salmond spouts about "common interests" and how the UK will suddenly come to their senses after a yes vote, all three parties have nailed their colours so firmly to the mast against any idea of currency union that I really don't see how any of them could back down now, regardless of pragmatism. Not just the leaders, but the party which did it would become unelectable. I honestly can't see that happening, so scotland would be left with the euro, or a quick transition to its own currency/central bank. Given salmonds wholehearted espousal of an independent scotland moving immediately into the eurozone a few years ago, and his subsequent massive u-turn which he glosses over whenever he's asked about it, I'm guessing it will be the latter.

 

It's a good question scotty - how would the party leaders explain a volte-face on the position of not sharing the currency with an independent Scotland?

 

I think the Bank of England would play a role here. I could see the Prime Minister (whoever that might be) talking about taking advice from the BoE, and that because the Scots have made such a mess of their economy, and because our economies are so closely interrelated, that we have no choice but to extend the currency to them - perhaps it would be sold as a temporary measure.

 

Salmond would also have his own credibility issues by the way - in accepting restrictions on their tax and spending plans.

 

I do agree that if Cameron carried out the move then he would be damaged goods, but if there is a Yes vote then Cameron surely is on borrowed time anyway. There's an argument that his Devo-max offer may make him damaged goods in the event of a No vote.

 

An incoming PM, especially if it were to be a from different party would have less trouble accepting the advice of the BoE, because as usual they could just blame it on the mishandling of the last government.

[saintbletch]

Gordon brown has a shyte PM but he is a very good public speaker.

 

But none of them come close to Galloway on this matter

 

Some professor was on sky news just a now and he expects a NO vote

 

He analysed the data in the run up to the last 14 elections very similar to this and the equivalent to a YES vote in all of those were always the more vocal but their share of the vote was always exaggerated in the run up opinion polls. Where as those who would vote the same as tomorrow's NO voters are always more understated about it.

 

Unsure voters also tend to be more cautious. When it comes to it.

 

Brown is better than Darling, but being better than Darling isn't necessarily a ringing endorsement. He's more statesmanlike, but otherwise I think Brown is a shocking speaker.

 

I think the only thing that could sway the vote to Yes, would be complacency from the No vote.

 

A Yes vote, being a positive vote for change where the voter has created an image of a better Scotland in their mind, would likely stand up better to voter apathy.

 

The mindset of some No voters will be for the status quo, and that's less of an emotional driver to force someone to action.

 

"I must make sure I vote so that things stay exactly the same"

 

Having said all of that, from what I've read voter apathy won't be a factor.

[saintbletch]

Entirely agreed - he wins regardless of the result tomorrow. A Yes makes him the master of all he surveys (and the being the arrogant, power-crazed, egotistical cock-wobble that he is, that's what he really really wants) whilsy a No gives him greater powers at the cost of the rest of the UK with no cost to Scotland.

 

Exactly so.

[Whitey Grandad]

Once they have voted to remain we must ensure that they get as little as possible. There will be no sucking up imo

 

Once they have voted no then the politicians will backtrack as far and as fast as they can. It's what they do.

[hypochondriac]

Once they have voted no then the politicians will backtrack as far and as fast as they can. It's what they do.

 

Good! We need to keep the union for the good of the entire UK but we shouldn't be offering the Scottish ridiculous powers to achieve it.

[Viking Warrior]

That'll be a NO then.

 

How long before the Shetlands, Orkneys and outer Isles start pushing for self-determination?

 

From what I was told the Orcadians feel more affinity to Norway than they do to Edinburgh. Is this so?

 

Whitey , we are . we have an initiative ( Ours and Our Future) and there have been various debates and conferences taking place

 

Its all gone quiet of Late with some of our elected members and specificully our Convenor who have piined their colours to the Yes Mast

thought they say it just their personal view poin and not as their elected members role.

[Viking Warrior]

Scotland is one of the richest nations on earth.

 

WEll Mr Salmond if that is the case, why am I so Poor?

[Batman]

Galloway with one of his speeches

 

 

[SuperMikey]

Galloway with one of his speeches

 

 

 

Do people think that Galloway has credibility now that he's aligned himself with the No campaign? They were very quick to dismiss what he had to say before this referendum.

[Batman]

Do people think that Galloway has credibility now that he's aligned himself with the No campaign? They were very quick to dismiss what he had to say before this referendum.

 

What does he have to lose credibility to want to remain in the UK?

[SuperMikey]

What does he have to lose credibility to want to remain in the UK?

 

I've tried deciphering that but i'm not having any luck. Can you rephrase the question?

[hypochondriac]

Do people think that Galloway has credibility now that he's aligned himself with the No campaign? They were very quick to dismiss what he had to say before this referendum.

 

Is it not possible to dismiss some of what he says but agree with other things?

[Batman]

I've tried deciphering that but i'm not having any luck. Can you rephrase the question?

 

Sorry mis-read your post

 

It is possible to agree with someone on certain things even if you don't on other?

 

Oh, for Viking

The MP for the Shetland isles has said that if his constituents vote no but Scotland go with a yes. He thinks there is a legal way for the islands not to be part of an iScotland.

 

Heard anything about that?

Edited 17 September, 2014 by Batman

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Those rubbing their hands at the prospect of a 'Yes' vote damaging a Tory Prime Minister they don't happen to much like will do well to remember that David Cameron is what the great Robin Day once described as a: 'here today, gone tomorrow' politician. PM's come and like Southampton managers. The big picture is that Scottish independence will almost certainly shift the balance of political power in England to the right - perhaps significantly.

 

So my lefty mates - if you want to see your political philosophy prosper again south of the border then you better swallow you pride and get behind Dave and the union you secretly despise so - and if that sticks in your craw then console yourself with the thought that you'd actually be on the right side of a argument for once.

Edited 17 September, 2014 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE