CB Watch 2014

[alpine_saint]

2 weeks to go, and at the moment we're playing Jos and Jose.

 

My son could go through them, let alone Sturridge, Sterling and Lambert.

[Sour Mash]

Not one of your better efforts.

[Greenridge]

It's been rubbish since it went over to Ch5. Except for Emma Willis that is.

[Matthew Le God]

2 weeks to go, and at the moment we're playing Jos and Jose.

 

My son could go through them, let alone Sturridge, Sterling and Lambert.

 

Not one of your better efforts.

 

Lets give him the rebuttal he craves...

 

Hooiveld is behind Yoshida in the pecking order. There are still 13 days until the first game, there is still time to buy another centre back.

 

In the successful part of 2012/13 we had a defence of Boruc, Clyne, Shaw, Fonte, Yoshida. Currently we are only one player different to that, plus we now have Wanyama as an addition and shield in front of the defence. Its not a defence that will get us to upper mid table, but likewise it isn't a relegation fodder defence some people are making it out to be as the latter part of 12/13 showed.

Last edited by Matthew Le God

; Today at 10:31 PM.

Edited 4 August, 2014 by Matthew Le God

[notnowcato]

My money is on this thread being dug up again in 2 weeks, to which Alpine will respond that the board should have sorted the CB out before selling Lovren.

 

Of course he is right and by all accounts he loves his ivory tower. Oh to be as perfect as Alpine - Football Genius.

[Heisenberg]

Think (hope) we will get a CB in this week, looks like either VVD or Vlaar.

 

Be happy with either, delighted with both

[Whitey Grandad]

Think (hope) we will get a CB in this week, looks like either VVD or Vlaar.

 

Be happy with either, delighted with both

 

Both will be good.

[hypochondriac]

My money is on this thread being dug up again in 2 weeks, to which Alpine will respond that the board should have sorted the CB out before selling Lovren.

 

Of course he is right and by all accounts he loves his ivory tower. Oh to be as perfect as Alpine - Football Genius.

 

That's exactly what the board should have done. It's not about being perfect, it'd about being vaguely competent.

[Dazza82]

Has anyone thought with the rumoured midfield strength we are getting that wanyama may be used an option for centre back

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Think (hope) we will get a CB in this week, looks like either VVD or Vlaar.

 

Be happy with either, delighted with both

 

This.

[Greenridge]

Has anyone thought with the rumoured midfield strength we are getting that wanyama may be used an option for centre back

 

Or sold?

[Saint Charlie]

Central defence is painfully weak at the moment. Suprised we still havent replaced Lovren as its about 2 months now since it became clear he was going.

 

Prediction: We need 2 centre backs but will get one. Hooiveld will be 4th choice instead of sent elsewhere and in the 7 or 8 league games he plays we will win once. Like last year.

 

Could be the same thread re strikers tbh.

Edited 4 August, 2014 by Saint Charlie

[notnowcato]

That's exactly what the board should have done. It's not about being perfect, it'd about being vaguely competent.

 

Bit early to judge for me.

Without knowing the exact timings of Lovren informing the club as opposed to informing the media that is head was in Liverpool we don't know if a replacement could have been found before the word was out.

For all we know replacements were identified and were either competing in the latter stages of the world cup or were part of a squad involved in UCL qualifiers, where the club wanted that player to be available for selection.

As I said, we just don't know. Without knowing we are not in a fantastic position to judge.

[hypochondriac]

Bit early to judge for me.

Without knowing the exact timings of Lovren informing the club as opposed to informing the media that is head was in Liverpool we don't know if a replacement could have been found before the word was out.

For all we know replacements were identified and were either competing in the latter stages of the world cup or were part of a squad involved in UCL qualifiers, where the club wanted that player to be available for selection.

As I said, we just don't know. Without knowing we are not in a fantastic position to judge.

 

Why does the word being out as you put it mean we are obligated to sell in his timescale and not ours?

[notnowcato]

Why does the word being out as you put it mean we are obligated to sell in his timescale and not ours?

Because the purchase that you desire will already be labelled as a replacement.

What good would it have done having Lovren around whilst we secure a CB?

[Wrensup]

[Toon Saint]

Will be concerned if we haven't signed a CB by the end of the week. Hopefully Celtic's probable CL exit on Wednesday will hasten things on that front...Van Dijk looks to be the kind of ball-playing CB that would flourish under Koeman's guidance.

[OttawaSaint]

In other news Betfair have stopped taking money on Alpine mentioning "one size" in a post in the next fortnight...

[hypochondriac]

Because the purchase that you desire will already be labelled as a replacement.

What good would it have done having Lovren around whilst we secure a CB?

 

It's what the majority of well run football clubs do, buy before you sell. This was particularly important for us as by this point we had already sold three Crown jewels and had gained a perception as a crisis club.

[Whitey Grandad]

In other news Betfair have stopped taking money on Alpine mentioning "one size" in a post in the next fortnight...

 

'One size'? I wondered what happened to him and I see that his contract with Watford ended at the end of last season. I also saw that as a 14 year old he appeared in the opening of The Fifth Element.

[SaintBobby]

OMG. This forum is now just beyond belief.

 

The trolls can't even really be arsed anymore.

[notnowcato]

It's what the majority of well run football clubs do, buy before you sell. This was particularly important for us as by this point we had already sold three Crown jewels and had gained a perception as a crisis club.

 

Haha. Opinion as fact with no consideration for individual circumstance.

[hypochondriac]

Haha. Opinion as fact with no consideration for individual circumstance.

 

What are these individual circumstances that meant we simply had to sell five of our best players before bringing in replacements?

[Dalek2003]

CB 'Fry' watch, he will be flattered.

[Saint_Tony]

I'd be very concerned at this stage .We probably need 2 cbs, who, looking at our targets are Vlaar and Van Dijk. Fonte has good experience at this level now, but Yoshida and Jos are nowhere near good enough and should not be anywhere near the team (cue several posters trying to claim Yoshida is a solid cb)

[notnowcato]

What are these individual circumstances that meant we simply had to sell five of our best players before bringing in replacements?

 

Without knowing the facts how can either of us actually know. You're happy to broad brush the board with an opinion, the FACT is you don't actually know what is going on. It could be that they are making an absolute horlicks of things, or they may be adapting to change really well.

 

IMO we can judge the board on 3 separate pieces:

 

1 - Sales and Purchases

2 - Squad for start of season

3 - Squad at end of transfer window

 

1 - the direct replacements - Tadic, Pelle and Bertrand aren't too shabby - time will tell but on the face of it there are signals for optimism here.

2 - 12 days to go but centre back was in need of improvement before the sale of Lovren. Hard to see us getting 2 centre backs in that are better than Jos and Yosh - would happily be proved wrong on this. Back up striker and right back would bridge the gap between first team and current youth players. I really would like to see Gallagher step up considering all that he went through last season, impressed by his attitude and application still need to see his quality.

3 - too early to comment.

[hypochondriac]

Without knowing the facts how can either of us actually know. You're happy to broad brush the board with an opinion, the FACT is you don't actually know what is going on. It could be that they are making an absolute horlicks of things, or they may be adapting to change really well.

 

IMO we can judge the board on 3 separate pieces:

 

1 - Sales and Purchases

2 - Squad for start of season

3 - Squad at end of transfer window

 

1 - the direct replacements - Tadic, Pelle and Bertrand aren't too shabby - time will tell but on the face of it there are signals for optimism here.

2 - 12 days to go but centre back was in need of improvement before the sale of Lovren. Hard to see us getting 2 centre backs in that are better than Jos and Yosh - would happily be proved wrong on this. Back up striker and right back would bridge the gap between first team and current youth players. I really would like to see Gallagher step up considering all that he went through last season, impressed by his attitude and application still need to see his quality.

3 - too early to comment.

 

I would argue that so far:

 

1) below average at the moment IMO. Not enough bodies in to replace those that have left. Tadic clearly a good buy on the face of it. Bertrand remains to be seen but potentially quite a poor option to my mind. Underwhelming for villa and after being linked to quality like Rojo, is a large step down from Shaw. Pelle could be good but again unproven in the prem and has looked ordinary for much of his career. Not really any resale value and remains to be seen if he is anywhere as good as rickie.

 

2) abysmal situation at cb. Inexcusable after we knew improvement was needed there before the end of last season. No cover at rb currently. Just one youth team player as backup striker who to my mind is not going to be good enough or certainly didn't suggest he would be last season. Mayuka and sharp don't count. Morgan still being linked with a move away before the window closes.

 

3) I would be amazed if they managed to address all of those weaknesses by the end of the window. Amazed and surprised. Concerned by the reports of all these loan signings with no long term commitment and that we have missed out on our first choice targets. Also concerned that we are being linked with dross now and also that many of our targets seems quite old? Hope this is not the case.

Edited 5 August, 2014 by hypochondriac

[notnowcato]

I would argue that so far:

 

1) below average at the moment IMO. Not enough bodies in to replace those that have left. Tadic clearly a good buy on the face of it. Bertrand remains to be seen but potentially quite a poor option to my mind. Underwhelming for villa and after being linked to quality like Rojo, is a large step down from Shaw. Pelle could be good but again unproven in the prem and has looked ordinary for much of his career. Not really any resale value and remains to be seen if he is anywhere as good as rickie.

 

2) abysmal situation at cb. Inexcusable after we knew improvement was needed there before the end of last season. No cover at rb currently. Just one youth team player as backup striker who to my mind is not going to be good enough or certainly didn't suggest he would be last season. Mayuka and sharp don't count. Morgan still being linked with a move away before the window closes.

 

3) I would be amazed if they managed to address all of those weaknesses by the end of the window. Amazed and surprised. Concerned by the reports of all these loan signings with no long term commitment and that we have missed out on our first choice targets. Also concerned that we are being linked with dross now and also that many of our targets seems quite old? Hope this is not the case.

 

IMO Bertrand has never been nothing but a solid left back, that is what Shaw was for us - Shaw was sold on potential and the probability of a lengthy service at a top club. We are a club that doesn't need a £30m left back. Bertrand is a proven left back and I expect him to be more than adequate for us.

 

I also think you should apply a large amount of salt to any "links" or reports of "deals falling through" - for your own good, also to be fair to the board it is an unfair stick to hit them with.

[Wrensup]

 

 

Us looking for a centre back.

[pangy]

Rojo,Vlaar and Van Dijk are the only CB's we have been linked with I believe

 

Rojo -Seems we wont pay the £16m that Sporting have put on him,seems like he is too good for us and we wouldnt be his first choice

 

Vlaar- We would have to pay him a hell of a lot to move here as he is on £45k a week at Villa

 

Van Dijk - Unproven at any level apart from the SPL,the most likely to move here

 

Unless we are pulling something out of the blue that has gone completely under the radar I am starting to get concerned.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Fonte needs a leader next to him. Fonte plays to the level of his partner. It's vital we get the right sort of CB for Fonte to also perform as he did last season.

[The9]

It's what the majority of well run football clubs do, buy before you sell.

 

No point debating this one hypo, it is the one point all summer on which you are correct and I'm surprised anyone is arguing.

[The9]

IMO Bertrand has never been nothing but a solid left back, that is what Shaw was for us - Shaw was sold on potential and the probability of a lengthy service at a top club. We are a club that doesn't need a £30m left back. Bertrand is a proven left back and I expect him to be more than adequate for us.

 

We are a club that will happily field a (basically) free left back for a couple of seasons until someone realises he's a £30m left back though, right? Ditto the £8m CB who turned out to be a £20m one, the basically free reserve right back who is actually a £16m Champions League CB/DM if you believe Wenger, the free tricky attacking midfielder who turned out to be a £25m England international, etc.

 

The trouble with Bertrand is there's no way we're paying £10m for him next summer. If he's good enough to merit it, someone else will buy him, and if he's not good enough we won't sign him. I guess we'll see if Targett is worth a place and having him floating around just in case will be a decent enough safety net.

Edited 5 August, 2014 by The9

[Wrensup]

 

The trouble with Bertrand is there's no way we're paying £10m for him next summer. If he's good enough to merit it, someone else will buy him, and if he's not good enough we won't sign him. I guess we'll see if Targett is worth a place and having him floating around just in case will be a decent enough safety net.

 

Yeah that's the way I see it, either a Spurs or an Everton will go in for him. Or I can imagine Newcastle/West Ham/QPR as they're the only teams outside the top 7 who pay big wages.

[Papa Shango]

Not as worried about our CB options as I am about other positions. Fonte is clearly good enough, and wasn't that far off the level Lovren was at for much of last season. People seem to have completely forgotten that Yoshida was excellent for much of 2012/13 too. Think his lack of match practice caught up with him a few times last season, but once he has a few games under his belt to get used to the pace, he's usually fine. Hooiveld has his faults, but it's not like he's never had a good game at this level. Stephens has impressed me recently too, and could be decent backup. We'll obviously sign someone else too, so I think we'll be ok.

 

Will add that as good as Lovren was last season, I think our brilliant early defensive record had as much if not more to do with the way we set up as a team, and the defensive midfielders we had protecting the back four. If both those areas are in order then we will cope. More pressing issues at the other end of the pitch IMO.

[hypochondriac]

Not as worried about our CB options as I am about other positions. Fonte is clearly good enough, and wasn't that far off the level Lovren was at for much of last season. People seem to have completely forgotten that Yoshida was excellent for much of 2012/13 too. Think his lack of match practice caught up with him a few times last season, but once he has a few games under his belt to get used to the pace, he's usually fine. Hooiveld has his faults, but it's not like he's never had a good game at this level. Stephens has impressed me recently too, and could be decent backup. We'll obviously sign someone else too, so I think we'll be ok.

 

Will add that as good as Lovren was last season, I think our brilliant early defensive record had as much if not more to do with the way we set up as a team, and the defensive midfielders we had protecting the back four. If both those areas are in order then we will cope. More pressing issues at the other end of the pitch IMO.

 

Eh? Cb is by far our weakest position.

[Greenridge]

Not as worried about our CB options as I am about other positions. Fonte is clearly good enough, and wasn't that far off the level Lovren was at for much of last season. People seem to have completely forgotten that Yoshida was excellent for much of 2012/13 too. Think his lack of match practice caught up with him a few times last season, but once he has a few games under his belt to get used to the pace, he's usually fine. Hooiveld has his faults, but it's not like he's never had a good game at this level. Stephens has impressed me recently too, and could be decent backup. We'll obviously sign someone else too, so I think we'll be ok.

 

Will add that as good as Lovren was last season, I think our brilliant early defensive record had as much if not more to do with the way we set up as a team, and the defensive midfielders we had protecting the back four. If both those areas are in order then we will cope. More pressing issues at the other end of the pitch IMO.

 

Let's hope we have no bookings / dismissal's or injuries. Whichever way you dress it up we are woefully short of cover at the CB position and one match could see us even more than threadbare. Of course, there is time to address this but time is not on our side.

[Papa Shango]

Eh? Cb is by far our weakest position.

 

We did fine with just Fonte, Yoshida and Hooiveld the season before last. They only struggled at the start of the season when they were ridiculously exposed.

[Pedro]

Lovren was a PL unknown quantity last season and people were "underwhelmed" by his signing and now a £20m player, we all knew Shaw was a good prospect but unsure about a full PL season, he's earned us £26m, Lallana was often criticised for not lasting 90 minutes, Ricky was taking some forum stick for being slow and rumoured to be going to Wetsham in January, Chambers was another prospect but not first choice for a start every game and Osvaldo was never coming back.

 

We are never going to replace some of them "like for like" because the top teams have bought them for being the best around so our replacements are going to be at least second best. Once Manu are back and LVG has said who are being released and if Celtic get knocked out the CL they will want to sell for cashflow then I think we will some movement, if nothing from those two clubs then actively recruiting elsewhere.

[Mouldy Coat]

Even if we have to go down the under 21 route, there must be a player in Spain, Germany, Holland, portugla, France at under 21 level who is better than we already have. I expect Koeman has a back up plan (I hope) but we are aiming for an experienced head to come in before deadline day. Otherwise imo, if we are not already doing so, we should look in the European u21 market

[SaintRobbie]

I would feel quite happy if Vlaar and Djik arrived together. But... I note Vlaar is likely to stay at Villa (if you believe Lambert) and we seem no closer of Djik.

[SaintRobbie]

Fonte needs a leader next to him. Fonte plays to the level of his partner. It's vital we get the right sort of CB for Fonte to also perform as he did last season.

 

Yep - he's Claus L to Michael Svensson. Similarities are shudderingly similar. I expect he'll fall apart without a rock next to him, just as Claus did when Killer's knee went.... and then we relegated. Key position. Losing Lovren will be high on the post season discussion forum if we go down.

[Saint Charlie]

Lovren was a PL unknown quantity last season and people were "underwhelmed" by his signing .

 

Not how I remember it.

[Mowgli]

Rojo,Vlaar and Van Dijk are the only CB's we have been linked with I believe

 

 

We've also been linked with De Vrij (now Lazio), Michael Keane, Davide Astori (now Roma), Lamine Sane, Stephen Caulker (now QPR), Geoff Cameron Terence Kongolo and Martin Indi (now Porto).

[Wes Tender]

Not how I remember it.

That's exactly how I remembered it. I seem to recall that there was a lot of research done as hardly anybody knew anything about him and that as a result there were murmurs about taking on a player who appeared to be out of favour and a bit of a bad apple. Doubts about his character have proven to be justified, although we got good service from him up until the time that he turned into an ungrateful greedy bastard.

 

The sensible way to look at his departure, is that he only cost us £8 million and proved himself to be worth an over-inflated £20 million a short while after. Therefore it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that there is another equivalent player out there somewhere. Up to our scouting network to find him.

[farawaysaint]

]That's exactly how I remembered it.[/b] I seem to recall that there was a lot of research done as hardly anybody knew anything about him and that as a result there were murmurs about taking on a player who appeared to be out of favour and a bit of a bad apple. Doubts about his character have proven to be justified, although we got good service from him up until the time that he turned into an ungrateful greedy bastard.

 

The sensible way to look at his departure, is that he only cost us £8 million and proved himself to be worth an over-inflated £20 million a short while after. Therefore it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that there is another equivalent player out there somewhere. Up to our scouting network to find him.

 

Yep, many were underwhelmed by Lovren.

[Clunge]

Signing at least one quality CB should be boards priority at the moment, ideally they should be looing for two. Our defence will leak goals as it is now, record breaking kind of leaking imo.

[Mowgli]

Yep, many were underwhelmed by Lovren.

 

Your point makes no reference to the quote at all so makes no sense whatsoever. I don't recall anyone being underwhelmed or claiming that other fans were. I think Lovren was the revelation of the season - one of the best centre backs I have ever seen (apart from the Spurs game when someone knew exactly how to get under his skin and expose that character flaw). But the fact remains that not many had heard of him when he first signed and those that did a bit of research found mixed views from his previous club.

[farawaysaint]

Your point makes no reference to the quote at all so makes no sense whatsoever. I don't recall anyone being underwhelmed or claiming that other fans were. I think Lovren was the revelation of the season - one of the best centre backs I have ever seen (apart from the Spurs game when someone knew exactly how to get under his skin and expose that character flaw). But the fact remains that not many had heard of him when he first signed and those that did a bit of research found mixed views from his previous club.

 

I was agreeing with you actually.

[Chez]

aren't we just waiting for Celtic to go out of the champions league and then we can go back and try to sign Van Dijk?