FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH . . . . .

[Dalek2003]

I know you're trolling but I did actually enjoy almost everything about lg1 and Championship more than the PL. Everything apart from the quality of the football.

 

Not trolling, what I said is true.

[Depressed of Shirley]

On top of the team based salary cap, and the restrictions on signing U21's, there are two other things that have brought us to where we are now. The first was the obligation to pay the visiting team a proportion of the gate money. It was this that allowed many sides such as us, Watford, Derby, Forest etc to compete with Liverpool and Man U. This will never be undone now, but it was the catalyst for the big five and the PL.

 

The second is to ban the loan system for all players over the age of 21. This would encourage players to think about who they are signing for, and whether they would actually get any game time. It is ridiculous for clubs to loan players out to different clubs for season after season, whilst continuing to buy other first team players.

 

In the interests of this post actually making sense, what I meant to say was the salary cap and no transfers of under 21's, + the re-introduction of gate receipt sharing and a ban on loans would make the league a bit more competitive.

[ENSKIED]

Wonder what the OP makes of some of the comments posted on the City, discussing the same subject.

 

 

 

 

 

http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=258733&start=570

 

Still I respect your sentiment - nothing against you personally.

Hey nothing personally taken shurlock, I appreciate the circumstances and emotions involved I really do - that's why I elected to write on your Forum in the first instance.

 

TBH I bit on the bullet to post here thinking I would get a FAR worse reception than I did - you've all been how can I say it - appreciative and welcoming. Those sentiments cover it anyway! And despite the circumstances it's been a pleasure exchanging views - this seems a very good Forum.

 

Just one observation I feel compelled to make in regard to the BlueMoon comment you post, is that Man City have been "capped" by EUFA FFP rules having broken them and fined £49 million, so if they has have done the "asset stripping" in this instance then they would in all probability been in deep ****. Nothing that Prince Mansour might not attempt to buy is way out of but they might well have been made a serious example of; especially once our Jose [Mourinho] starts his err wailing - which he probably would.

[angelman]

gordondaviesmoustache

 

Posts: 23192

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:12 pm

Location: Antediluvian rapscallion with a latent inferiority complex.

Re: The Southampton Thread!

Postby gordondaviesmoustache » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:08 pm

 

The silence from the media in respect of this systematic dismantling of this squad of players is deafening.

 

Liverpool and Arsenal managers have both, in recent times, been at great pains to differentiate what they claim is their morally superior way of doing business over the likes of City and Chelsea. By implication, a model that provides a route for other, what they would describe as 'well run clubs', like Southampton, to grow organically. This was always a lie. A lie they were instrumental in creating. united are a slightly different case in point, preferring instead to take pot shots at City via the spineless MO of utilising ex-players in plain sight, providing them with plausible deniability. The narrative, however, is the same.

 

They don't care about what's right, or what is fair. They don't actually give a flying **** about doing things 'the right way'. Just self-enrichment and self-interest.

 

Their hypocrisy is nauseating. The media's failure to report it as such, cowardly and dishonest.

 

Cockroaches.

 

This is a pertinent post from the Man City board.

[angelman]

Been reading a bit more of Bluemoon. It is quite an interesting thread. They are happy to see the situation for what it is, how football is ruined, while taking the moral high ground because they didn't buy any of the players leaving. Some are much more aware of things, and I suspect that those might be the supporters who have followed them from the top division to the fourth and back again.

[aintforever]

Where then do we go from here, can we place our hopes in the EUFA FFP rules or will they in turn become just another game for the Billionaires in terms of circumvention? It seems to be shaping up that way as I write.

 

Whilst I appreciate what you are trying to say, the FFP rules are only designed to help the traditionally dominant clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd become richer and more successful.

 

At the moment there is a glass ceiling for clubs like Saints because of the CL money but there is always a hope of a rich benefactor that means we could break in. FFP destroys any hope at all for clubs like Saints.

 

Personally I think it is fantastic that Man City and Chelsea consigning Liverpool, Arsenal and Man U to fighting for 3rd spot, this year the gap will grow IMO.

[ENSKIED]

Whilst I appreciate what you are trying to say, the FFP rules are only designed to help the traditionally dominant clubs like Liverpool and Man Utd become richer and more successful.

 

At the moment there is a glass ceiling for clubs like Saints because of the CL money but there is always a hope of a rich benefactor that means we could break in. FFP destroys any hope at all for clubs like Saints.

 

Personally I think it is fantastic that Man City and Chelsea consigning Liverpool, Arsenal and Man U to fighting for 3rd spot, this year the gap will grow IMO.

 

Well it's good that someone at least is getting some joy out of this, or at least appears to be, silver lining and all that. However, I'm not sure I totally follow the logic of the post I'd already questioned the validity of the EUFA FFP rules in the piece of my post you kindly highlight - but not to worry that might just be me and I'll give it some more thought later. The other confusing issue in that is why the "fighting for 3rd spot"? Has the Prem ECL qualification now been reduced to the top 3 this year? Using that latter point as a springboard to continue on with regard to the theme of Losing the Soul Of The Game, in reality it could be debated that actually winning the title itself in all this has also been somewhat devalued for example once again the ECL winners, this time Real Madrid did not win their domestic title. It seems all that matters now is finishing in the "Top 4" really and thus gaining the EXTRA money thereby generated.

[Wes Tender]

TBH I bit on the bullet to post here thinking I would get a FAR worse reception than I did - you've all been how can I say it - appreciative and welcoming. Those sentiments cover it anyway! And despite the circumstances it's been a pleasure exchanging views - this seems a very good Forum.

 

This is a good thought-provoking issue that you have raised and it is always refreshing to hear the views of sensible fans from other clubs on matters like this. This thread is all very pertinent to our current predicament, so it can be debated seriously without rancour, especially because you have some sympathy with our plight.

[aintforever]

Well it's good that someone at least is getting some joy out of this, or at least appears to be, silver lining and all that. However, I'm not sure I totally follow the logic of the post I'd already questioned the validity of the EUFA FFP rules in the piece of my post you kindly highlight - but not to worry that might just be me and I'll give it some more thought later. The other confusing issue in that is why the "fighting for 3rd spot"? Has the Prem ECL qualification now been reduced to the top 3 this year? Using that latter point as a springboard to continue on with regard to the theme of Losing the Soul Of The Game, in reality it could be debated that actually winning the title itself in all this has also been somewhat devalued for example once again the ECL winners, this time Real Madrid did not win their domestic title. It seems all that matters now is finishing in the "Top 4" really and thus gaining the EXTRA money thereby generated.

 

I said fighting for 3rd because now that Suarez is gone I don't think you, Man U or Arsenal have much chance of finishing above Chelsea or Man City.

 

I agree entirely with you opening post apart from the FFP bit. It good to see a fan of one of the big clubs accept that the soul of the game has gone, and it's refreshing that you see it from our point of view when all we get from glory supporters down here is **** taking.

 

It's interesting how fans of clubs like Man U and Liverpool seem to think there is something wrong with what City and Chelsea are doing when they themselves have been outspending other clubs for years though. I don't see any difference in spending money that's from a rich arab than from selling shirts in China.

[Junction 9]

As I've said before on here, my favourite season watching Saints was the league one promotion season. The grounds visited the people I met. The team that year felt like it had a connection with the fans, we were on a journey.

I have never and will never get a Sky or BT sports subscription, billionaires sucking every penny they can out of the average man by playing on their loyalty and emotion. it sucks big time and I want no part in it.

One day the whole thing will come crashing down, and we'll get our football clubs back.

 

Maybe.

[Whitey Grandad]

As I've said before on here, my favourite season watching Saints was the league one promotion season. The grounds visited the people I met. The team that year felt like it had a connection with the fans, we were on a journey.

I have never and will never get a Sky or BT sports subscription, billionaires sucking every penny they can out of the average man by playing on their loyalty and emotion. it sucks big time and I want no part in it.

One day the whole thing will come crashing down, and we'll get our football clubs back.

 

Maybe.

 

Was it 'an amazing journey #saintsfc DESTROYED in 1 hour'?

[angelman]

Isn't the CL a bit of a double edged sword? You pay **** loads to get there, and if you fail, you can find yourself in trouble with your liabilities and unhappy playing staff. Or is that rather over stating things? Conversely what would happen to a club like Saints if we did manage to fluke it into CL one year? Would the increased revenue be enough to kick start a push or would it be swallowed up without a trace?

[angelman]

Was it 'an amazing journey #saintsfc DESTROYED in 1 hour'?

 

2 months. Not destroyed but severely tarnished by the ingratitude and greed of some.

[Depressed of Shirley]

Isn't the CL a bit of a double edged sword? You pay **** loads to get there, and if you fail, you can find yourself in trouble with your liabilities and unhappy playing staff. Or is that rather over stating things? Conversely what would happen to a club like Saints if we did manage to fluke it into CL one year? Would the increased revenue be enough to kick start a push or would it be swallowed up without a trace?

 

CL is a double edged sword in my opinion, because it is like getting promoted to the PL. Once you achieve it, you then realise you need to stay in it to be able to pay the wages of the people that got you there. A one season CL appearance probably causes as much damage as good, and therefore you then have to spend to keep getting the payments. Once you are established, the whole thing becomes self fulfilling, in terms of commercial deals etc, but looking at MUFC's stockmarket statement shows that a continued absence would hurt even them. A one season CL campaign would probably cause Saints a host of problems, and maybe the thinking behind Ralph's "natural" progress to playing in Europe.

[ENSKIED]

CL is a double edged sword in my opinion, because it is like getting promoted to the PL. Once you achieve it, you then realise you need to stay in it to be able to pay the wages of the people that got you there. A one season CL appearance probably causes as much damage as good, and therefore you then have to spend to keep getting the payments. Once you are established, the whole thing becomes self fulfilling, in terms of commercial deals etc, but looking at MUFC's stockmarket statement shows that a continued absence would hurt even them. A one season CL campaign would probably cause Saints a host of problems, and maybe the thinking behind Ralph's "natural" progress to playing in Europe.

 

Yes I think you are correct there can be a double-edge concept to the ECL. However, keeping the metaphors going I rather liken it to banqueting at the top table, you want to be there [well certain people want to] and while there you hope to rub shoulders with the nobility and ingratiate yourself within their cosseted and closeted world - nothing like being on the life-raft in shark infested waters. While of course the rest feed off the scraps.

 

The ECL is now where the big boys desperately need and indeed want to be, it's almost supplanted the domestic side of the game. It's certainly devalued it, one has only to consider the FA Cup as the prime example, to return it to its former prominence and glory it would have to lead to entry in the ECL. If it did then I believe the FA Cup would return to the competition it once was, virtually overnight. Also anyone else thinking that there is an inevitability factor in regard to it being only a question of time before we see a full-blown European League / Leagues?

[Depressed of Shirley]

Yes I think you are correct there can be a double-edge concept to the ECL. However, keeping the metaphors going I rather liken it to banqueting at the top table, you want to be there [well certain people want to] and while there you hope to rub shoulders with the nobility and ingratiate yourself within their cosseted and closeted world - nothing like being on the life-raft in shark infested waters. While of course the rest feed off the scraps.

 

The ECL is now where the big boys desperately need and indeed want to be, it's almost supplanted the domestic side of the game. It's certainly devalued it, one has only to consider the FA Cup as the prime example, to return it to its former prominence and glory it would have to lead to entry in the ECL. If it did then I believe the FA Cup would return to the competition it once was, virtually overnight. Also anyone else thinking that there is an inevitability factor in regard to it being only a question of time before we see a full-blown European League / Leagues?

 

I think what will make the European League a formality is the fact that in England 6 clubs think they should be in the CL every year, budget for it, and then find out only four can make it. Once there is a European League Man U, Real Madrid etc will then look to start a World League, and probably an intergalactic league, just to maintain that special status, and tw**s like Lovren will fall for it.

[sidthesquid]

This summer has all but killed off my love of the game. I have being going down to the Dell/SMS for 45 years, and I will be there again this season, but....

I hardly watched the World Cup

I very rarely watch MOTD or the Champions League, just the Saints live.

I naively imagined that we could buck the trends in modern football & I loved last season as much as any I remember - for the way we were doing it, not just the results.

But our dismantling has been brutal for us, but brutal for every other team outside of Liverpool, Manchester and London. Nobody outside the top six is ever going to make it to the Champions League again. If you ever dare to fly too high you will be ripped apart. The grind of survival is the reality for the majority of Premiership fans, and players know they can only fulfill their own dreams by a quick move to the top six - there is no longer any other way. And that is bad for a competitive sport.

In many ways I wish the top clubs would go off to form a European Super League, and though we would continue to lose our best players at least we would have a chance in an open and competitive league.

[ENSKIED]

This summer has all but killed off my love of the game. I have being going down to the Dell/SMS for 45 years, and I will be there again this season, but....

I hardly watched the World Cup

I very rarely watch MOTD or the Champions League, just the Saints live.

I naively imagined that we could buck the trends in modern football & I loved last season as much as any I remember - for the way we were doing it, not just the results.

But our dismantling has been brutal for us, but brutal for every other team outside of Liverpool, Manchester and London. Nobody outside the top six is ever going to make it to the Champions League again. If you ever dare to fly too high you will be ripped apart. The grind of survival is the reality for the majority of Premiership fans, and players know they can only fulfill their own dreams by a quick move to the top six - there is no longer any other way. And that is bad for a competitive sport.

In many ways I wish the top clubs would go off to form a European Super League, and though we would continue to lose our best players at least we would have a chance in an open and competitive league.

 

From the heart to the heart.

[angelman]

So what happens? Does the UCL expand itself, slowly, to play more games at the league stage? That could mean shrinking the PL. And after a while a full on Euro league. I have two questions really....

 

1) Would fans, lets say, of Liverpool, be happy going to Istanbul, Madrid, Munich, Milan, Athens etc to watch their away games? I suspect that the average supporter would hardly go to any of the away games due to the expense, and I am sure that the home games will be more expensive, justified by the glamour of it all.

 

2) If a Euro league does happen, and I think that it will, will there ever be promotion and relegation from that?

[tpbury]

I've only just realised about this wnak fest in the US. Cozy club of Arse, Man City, SPURS, Liverpool, Manure, maybe Chelsea?!?. Dunno, but this is what English football is to the world. I'm sure it has been discussed before, but no other clubs exist as far as the world is concerned. Wanted to buy kit in Birmingham when we were over, needless to say, Saints weren't available, all the others were. Grrr

[ENSKIED]

So what happens? Does the UCL expand itself, slowly, to play more games at the league stage? That could mean shrinking the PL. And after a while a full on Euro league. I have two questions really....

 

1) Would fans, lets say, of Liverpool, be happy going to Istanbul, Madrid, Munich, Milan, Athens etc to watch their away games? I suspect that the average supporter would hardly go to any of the away games due to the expense, and I am sure that the home games will be more expensive, justified by the glamour of it all.

 

2) If a Euro league does happen, and I think that it will, will there ever be promotion and relegation from that?

 

!] First thing that appeals is that research will be appropriately examined by the analysts and silk suits [if it isn't being done already] to find that fans of the big teams across Europe will in all probability go to watch their favourites be it real Madrid or whomever. Last night for example some 50,000 fans turned up at Yankee Stadium in New York to watch Liverpool play Man City. Last season over 90,000 turned up to watch Liverpool play a game in Australia . . . . . that could be a ready made sort of barometer? Travelling by air now often seems the cheapest form of travel there is and I feel fairly certain home based fans will also travel - football in the blood!

 

2] Personally speaking I think that there would be be promotion and relegation to create excitement. A sort of ECL of the sort that exists now on a three pronged basis that the winners of will be promoted into the European league . . . . . . . .

 

. . . . . . .So those finishing top of the English Prem as an example [The Saints] go into the ECL and if they win that they are promoted into the European Premier League. Same for the FA Cup Winners they play against the other Cup Winners in a parallel ECL [Old Cup Winners] and the same again for League Cup Winners. Eventually then the three tournaments throw up three teams from around Europe who enter the European Premier League, while three are demoted back to their respective leagues. Crude at this stage I know with many things to be ironed out but something roughly on those lines might generate a lot more money, which will be the core of any analysis one would suspect.

[Polaroid Saint]

!] First thing that appeals is that research will be appropriately examined by the analysts and silk suits [if it isn't being done already] to find that fans of the big teams across Europe will in all probability go to watch their favourites be it real Madrid or whomever. Last night for example some 50,000 fans turned up at Yankee Stadium in New York to watch Liverpool play Man City. Last season over 90,000 turned up to watch Liverpool play a game in Australia . . . . . that could be a ready made sort of barometer? Travelling by air now often seems the cheapest form of travel there is and I feel fairly certain home based fans will also travel - football in the blood!

 

2] Personally speaking I think that there would be be promotion and relegation to create excitement. A sort of ECL of the sort that exists now on a three pronged basis that the winners of will be promoted into the European league . . . . . . . .

 

. . . . . . .So those finishing top of the English Prem as an example [The Saints] go into the ECL and if they win that they are promoted into the European Premier League. Same for the FA Cup Winners they play against the other Cup Winners in a parallel ECL [Old Cup Winners] and the same again for League Cup Winners. Eventually then the three tournaments throw up three teams from around Europe who enter the European Premier League, while three are demoted back to their respective leagues. Crude at this stage I know with many things to be ironed out but something roughly on those lines might generate a lot more money, which will be the core of any analysis one would suspect.

 

All a bit mental but thoroughly intriguing (I like it). In your scenario, the FA Cup/League Cup winners would have to play a lot less games to get into a parallel league to the one for League winners, is that right? Seems to me that would not be very popular with the Premier League!

[ENSKIED]

Nice post and sentiment appreciated.

 

But I'm afraid Liverpool are largely to blame for our situation. From tapping up through to Woy Hodgsons England strategy Liverpool have behaved in a disgraceful manner this summer. No respect for Liverpool anymore. I do not wish Liverpool well.

 

This I totally understand and that is not in any way patronisation. Far from it, indeed having Liverpool in my blood as it were, if the same thing happened to us as happened to you I'b be gutted in the fullest sense of the word. I felt the same way when West Ham were asset stripped of Lampard, Cole, Ferdinand, Johnson, Carrick, Mascherano, Tevez etc etc et al - if they'd have been able to keep those players together they would IMHO undoubtedly have won the Title. How refreshing would that have been for football? Instead they were as usual asset stripped. In the Saints case it's been almost instantaneous, they were on the cusp of greatness and it's wham bam than you ma'am! I love football too much for that not to register and I know others who feel the same.

[ENSKIED]

!] First thing that appeals is that research will be appropriately examined by the analysts and silk suits [if it isn't being done already] to find that fans of the big teams across Europe will in all probability go to watch their favourites be it real Madrid or whomever. Last night for example some 50,000 fans turned up at Yankee Stadium in New York to watch Liverpool play Man City. Last season over 90,000 turned up to watch Liverpool play a game in Australia . . . . . that could be a ready made sort of barometer? Travelling by air now often seems the cheapest form of travel there is and I feel fairly certain home based fans will also travel - football in the blood!

 

2] Personally speaking I think that there would be be promotion and relegation to create excitement. A sort of ECL of the sort that exists now on a three pronged basis that the winners of will be promoted into the European league . . . . . . . .

 

. . . . . . .So those finishing top of the English Prem as an example [The Saints] go into the ECL and if they win that they are promoted into the European Premier League. Same for the FA Cup Winners they play against the other Cup Winners in a parallel ECL [Old Cup Winners] and the same again for League Cup Winners. Eventually then the three tournaments throw up three teams from around Europe who enter the European Premier League, while three are demoted back to their respective leagues. Crude at this stage I know with many things to be ironed out but something roughly on those lines might generate a lot more money, which will be the core of any analysis one would suspect.

 

Hi Polaroid . . . . so the FA Cup and League Cup games which of course will be open to all the teams including those in the "new" English Prem etc could be played on a home and away basis in all cases, thereby making it much fairer? Certainly there are lots of ideas to be kicked around [pun intended]. My gut feeling in all of this is that it could, if handled and balanced correctly that's essential, generate real serious money spreading it around more. AND with appropriate enforced legislation help even things out. In that lots of teams are going to get a bite of the juicy cherry and "all" footy will become "revalued" most especially the FA and League Cups -that' would be my hope anyway.