French jornalist Romain Molina says Liebherr wants to sell

[sfc1976]

SFC 1976

 

No need for that abuse re fatty . Totally uncalled for and the bit about her fathers grave is probably one of the worst comments I have seen

 

Have you thought of going on the Jeremy Kyle show . You would be well suited to the rest of the chavs that go on there and you will get 250 for doing so

 

It would appear you are equally well skilled in the art of the reactionary personal insult!

 

Perhaps it's best to hold fire on the phoney moral outrage for now, and come back to me when saggy face is down here and three up at half time.

[Sour Mash]

Katharina Lienherr is not going to stay at the club forever.

 

The question is in what way, under what requirements and at what specification will the club be sold? Is it simply a case of she'll listen to any offers that come in? is it a case of we're actively going out to source buyers? Is there a big scam going on currently to get KL some cash to make up the difference she feels she can earn (unlikely to me). None of that is really clear.

 

As I've said many times before, there aren't tons of good, trustworthy, seriously loaded investors/owners out there waiting to sink £100m into a football club.

[JoeShmoe]

The only problem with that is outside of the top 4 - other than asset stripping like we are doing now - you can't make any money in football - your cost of sales run at about 90% just to stand still - and to stand still is to go backwards - and to go backwards is to go down

 

The US buyers have realised this and that's why Lerner at Villa wants to get out

 

The only reason someone would buy a Football Club now is for vanity - and the FFP rules have made that a pointless thing to do as if you're not successful already you can't buy success now

 

That's unless you're actually a fan - then it's a didn't ball game

 

Good post and why football in the state it is moving towards will in effect end up with 4/5 teams spending 70-80% of total outgoings and in effect you will have a 30 team championship as no one else can ever compete

 

The mirror article alludes to it, but the sport is killing itself, already happened in Scotland and will happen here

[Sour Mash]

Can someone explain whether or not fatty could legally make off with all the transfer funds? BBC reporting jrod and Morgan are close. Can't believe she's effectively ****ing on her fathers grave.

Pretty poor taste comment there.

[ART]

Pulling the plug? Meaning what exactly? Worse than what she's doing? (allegedly)

 

At present she is pulling out of the business, recuperating the investment of her father with the intention of handing over to new investors. If she were to actually pull the plug entirely it would certainly be a whole lot worse than at present.

[kpturner]

Can someone explain whether or not fatty could legally make off with all the transfer funds? BBC reporting jrod and Morgan are close. Can't believe she's effectively ****ing on her fathers grave.

 

Pretty disgraceful post tbh

[Sour Mash]

Makes sense. Fair enough they are playing a great game so far if that is the aim. Couple of cheaper signings in of middling quality and jobs a goodun. If she relegates us though she is ****ed as the clubs value will plummet. Lets see if her advisors have judged this right.

Main reason why I'm cynical on this theory, far too much risk involved. Also, why would Reed, Kruger and Koeman be complicit in the process, unless they were each getting a sizeable chunk to keep quiet and help out.

[Jonnyboy]

Can someone explain whether or not fatty could legally make off with all the transfer funds? BBC reporting jrod and Morgan are close. Can't believe she's effectively ****ing on her fathers grave.

 

What an image.

[shurlock]

The rest of the article is interesting-

 

Says Spurs are the only ones to make official equiries/bids for Jrod and Morgan. Its unclear whether Arsenal have, though Giroud's been lobbying Morgan and there have been discussions between his agent and Arsenal.

 

If Celtic make the CL, it could throw the van Dijk deal nto doubt (Koeman is a massive admirer), though £10m should be enough to get him.

 

We've also been tracking Celtic's left back, Emilio Izaguirre for several months, though no bid is anticipated. The priority is Jetrol Willem PSV's left back. We've also met one of Papy Djilobodji's representatives recently (Nantes CB), though nothing is in the pipeline.

Edited 28 July, 2014 by shurlock

[Saint Without a Halo]

The only problem with that is outside of the top 4 - other than asset stripping like we are doing now - you can't make any money in football - your cost of sales run at about 90% just to stand still - and to stand still is to go backwards - and to go backwards is to go down

 

The US buyers have realised this and that's why Lerner at Villa wants to get out

 

The only reason someone would buy a Football Club now is for vanity - and the FFP rules have made that a pointless thing to do as if you're not successful already you can't buy success now

 

That's unless you're actually a fan - then it's a didn't ball game

 

Ah but that is where NC was different! He did make money! The club plus the [players are worth more than the initial and subsequent investments made. That is where he was sharp committed single tracked ruthless and clever. He saw that he could only get better value out of the footballing assets if he improved the clubs footballing future and traded up as he went along always ensuring the value of the club and players was greater than the money put in. A plan that works as long as you continue to grow which we did!

 

It was NC that saw the possibility with Saints and introduced it to ML. It was principally a business proposition and a very clever one at that. It also needed a man of his single minded ruthlessness to implement correctly something ML understood but unfortunately his daughters advisors didn't.

[ART]

This journalist Romain Molina is a leading French expect on English football/football players for CNN, L'Equipe and leading newspapers in France.

[Junior Mullet]

Can be done. You structure the deal as £100m for the club plus free cash in the bank. (In this case £100m)

 

 

...and not just the cash in the bank. If you a net asset value calculation, which is pretty common with company sales, debtors and other assets are brought in. This would include installment payments on sales.

 

The two things that point most to a sale for me are: broken promises and the current silence - neither of which are indicative of an owner or board who are planning longevity.

[adrian lord]

Kl was never interested in the long haul and never shared her father's passion for football, let alone Saints. She is getting out at earliest opportunity that can offers a big pay day. This was clearly the agenda behind Cortese's ousting and some of us read the writing on the wall then, but were derided for posting.

[MAY-Z]

Unless she declares a 100 million dividend this is impossible, doubt the full dividend would pass the solvency test anyway. She could conceivably withdraw some funds but not all the sales.

 

But that isn't correct.

 

There are 2 ways in which you can sell a business

 

1) you sell the shares of the company that run the business and all of the assets & liabilities of that entity then effectively belong to the new shareholder or;

 

2) you sell the assets of the business whilst maintaining control of the original structure

 

It is common place in scenario 2 for cash & liabilities to stay in the original entity, therefore still owned by KL and a dividend can then be paid out to her overtime

[Graffito]

The only problem with that is outside of the top 4 - other than asset stripping like we are doing now - you can't make any money in football - your cost of sales run at about 90% just to stand still - and to stand still is to go backwards - and to go backwards is to go down

 

The US buyers have realised this and that's why Lerner at Villa wants to get out

 

The only reason someone would buy a Football Club now is for vanity - and the FFP rules have made that a pointless thing to do as if you're not successful already you can't buy success now

 

That's unless you're actually a fan - then it's a didn't ball game

 

You can make money by buying low and selling high. Championships clubs can be a good calculated bet. League 1 clubs of Saints calibre even better. Ein Schnäppchen as ML referred to his purchase of Saints. Of course you need some further investment, good coaches and acquisitions, a Cortese and luck but Saints prove it's feasible. The only surprise to me is why KL hasn't sold because the further investment and risk associated with breaking into the top 4 would be prohibitive to any but the oil rich and the like so why stick around?

[shurlock]

You can make money by buying low and selling high. Championships clubs can be a good calculated bet. League 1 clubs of Saints calibre even better. Ein Schnäppchen as ML referred to his purchase of Saints. Of course you need some further investment, good coaches and acquisitions, a Cortese and luck but Saints prove it's feasible. The only surprise to me is why KL hasn't sold because the further investment and risk associated with breaking into the top 4 would be prohibitive to any but the oil rich and the like so why stick around?

 

The Molina article suggests that by cutting costs, selling players and putting finances on an even keel, we can provide any potential seller with a blank slate which is much more attractive.

[angelman]

Saints might be slightly different with the academy. If you can sell a player or two for £15-30m that you have developed yourself, then it might make sense. I always have said that Bale has done us more favours than the amount of money that we missed out on. Now we can add Shaw to that.

[farawaysaint]

But that isn't correct.

 

There are 2 ways in which you can sell a business

 

1) you sell the shares of the company that run the business and all of the assets & liabilities of that entity then effectively belong to the new shareholder or;

 

2) you sell the assets of the business whilst maintaining control of the original structure

 

It is common place in scenario 2 for cash & liabilities to stay in the original entity, therefore still owned by KL and a dividend can then be paid out to her overtime

 

Fair point.

Edited 28 July, 2014 by farawaysaint

[Graffito]

The Molina article suggests that by cutting costs, selling players and putting finances on an even keel, we can provide any potential seller with a blank slate which is much more attractive.

 

Bit high risk though isn't it?

[FloridaMarlin]

If the ploy is to claw back as much money as she can by selling as many players as possible, why would you then spend £20m on two players?

 

Some will argue that was simply a ploy to pacify the fans, but clearly the way in which she has gone about her business suggests she is not bothered about supporters' feelings or views.

 

So if the expenditure on Pelle and Tadic was not a pacifying gesture, what was it?

 

There's just so much that doesn't add up.

[shurlock]

If the ploy is to claw back as much money as she can by selling as many players as possible, why would you then spend £20m on two players?

 

Some will argue that was simply a ploy to pacify the fans, but clearly the way in which she has gone about her business suggests she is not bothered about supporters' feelings or views.

 

So if the expenditure on Pelle and Tadic was not a pacifying gesture, what was it?

 

There's just so much that doesn't add up.

 

To keep us competitive enough to stay up.

[FloridaMarlin]

To keep us competitive enough to stay up.

 

As somebody said above, that is a high-risk strategy.

 

High-risk is not something normally associated with the Swiss business ethic.

[St Chalet]

I would assume the players we sold had a very low asset value.

 

Any new players we bring in would have an asset value with a cost spread out over their contract and outgoing players go straight on the balance sheet. This could actually be a really cunning way around FFP to push on to Champions League glory*

 

http://www.danielgeey.com/football-amortisation-chelseas-50m-luiz-profit/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* I do not believe this.

[shurlock]

As somebody said above, that is a high-risk strategy.

 

High-risk is not something normally associated with the Swiss business ethic.

 

Hypothetically player sales could generate enough money where she's recouped her investment and some.

 

While I doubt the plan is to sneak over the line every season, what's the worst than can happen? We get relegated. Something the regime would want to avoid; but we'd still be an attractive takeover target with the guarantee of parachute payments and sound finances/infrastructure.

Edited 28 July, 2014 by shurlock

[ART]

Just listened to some financial fellow called Mark Scott on Talksport answer all questions about the financial situation and what they are trying to achieve. The last thing the board would want to do is to lose PL status. I am hoping there will be a podcast and it will answer all questions all the supporters are asking. Will keep checking. Believe Mike Graham is going to be talking Saints during the night.

[Whitey Grandad]

I would assume the players we sold had a very low asset value.

 

Any new players we bring in would have an asset value with a cost spread out over their contract and outgoing players go straight on the balance sheet. This could actually be a really cunning way around FFP to push on to Champions League glory*

 

http://www.danielgeey.com/football-amortisation-chelseas-50m-luiz-profit/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* I do not believe this.

 

I think this is true (but not the but about Champions League either)

[A Nut Can Cut You]

Interesting article. Not really doom and gloom, just business. Molina says his story is 100% legit. No reason to doubt him.

[Killers Knee]

As somebody said above, that is a high-risk strategy.

 

High-risk is not something normally associated with the Swiss business ethic.

 

she isn't a business person, so it does fit.

[Convict Colony]

Jesus just woke up and its got worse.

 

Let's hope that when you have a communication vacuum all sorts of **** rushes to fill it.

[CB Fry]

As somebody said above, that is a high-risk strategy.

 

High-risk is not something normally associated with the Swiss business ethic.

It's possibly the lowest risk of all the scenarios. The most profitable way to run a Prem club of our size is to try and spend "just enough" to perpetuate survival in the league. The "reward" is low (ie 15/16th at best) but the risk is low because you're not saddled with huge wages/fees. Even on relegation it is a manageable risk.

 

Spending huge sums chasing success further up the table is higher risk purely because you are spending much more, and the "reward" does not really cover that investment. And quite easy for a club spending huge amounts to finish 15th anyway, or worse, a la QPR.

 

Let's be clear - it's a pretty sorry old strategy but if that is what is happening, they have chosen the lowest - risk option. The tw ats.

Edited 29 July, 2014 by CB Fry

[thorpie the sinner]

It's possibly the lowest risk of all the scenarios. The most profitable way to run a Prem club of our size is to try and spend "just enough" to perpetuate survival in the league. The "reward" is low (ie 15/16th at best) but the risk is low because you're not saddled with huge wages. Even on relegation it is a manageable risk.

 

Spending huge sums chasing success further up the table is higher risk purely because you are spending much more, and the "reward" does not really cover that investment. And quite easy for a club spending huge amounts to finish 15th anyway, or worse, a la QPR.

 

Football is a mugs game for owners, hence the corruption involved unless u really are worth 300 billion! Really can't see why KL is being vilified for trying to run club sensibly!

[angelman]

Football is a mugs game for owners, hence the corruption involved unless u really are worth 300 billion! Really can't see why KL is being vilified for trying to run club sensibly!

 

Because I am not sure that allowing all the players to leave in a period of 2 months can be considered to be running the club sensibly. Maybe she had no choice and couldn't stop it. But you are right, it is a mug's game. All I hope is, and I am more than aware that that is a vain hope, that our demise will be a wake up call to the rest of football. It won't. We will get spat out and left on the side, while 13 or 14 spineless other Chairmen in the league thank their lucky stars that there is another team that has suddenly entered into the relegation race.

 

And the more I hear the radio, and seee TV/papers, the more I wonder what on earth I am doing having a ST and going to the football. It's nothing but Man U this, Liverpool that, Chelsea/Man City/Arsenal/Spurs the other. And now of course, in a somewhat different manner, us! Journos seem to have got over their schadenfreude and have moved into pity. That's all well and good, but they are still wholly ignoring why/how this is happening.

[Window Cleaner]

Interesting article. Not really doom and gloom, just business. Molina says his story is 100% legit. No reason to doubt him.

 

 

they usually are yes, bloke is a student of football. Been doing a series of articles on the complete structure of English football, visiting clubs in lower league etc.

[Graffito]

It's possibly the lowest risk of all the scenarios. The most profitable way to run a Prem club of our size is to try and spend "just enough" to perpetuate survival in the league. The "reward" is low (ie 15/16th at best) but the risk is low because you're not saddled with huge wages/fees. Even on relegation it is a manageable risk.

 

Spending huge sums chasing success further up the table is higher risk purely because you are spending much more, and the "reward" does not really cover that investment. And quite easy for a club spending huge amounts to finish 15th anyway, or worse, a la QPR.

 

Let's be clear - it's a pretty sorry old strategy but if that is what is happening, they have chosen the lowest - risk option. The tw ats.

 

Yet higher investment would be the bigger risk but I think the club's ambition has to be a little more than survival. The academy is a big investment.

[Dalek2003]

To keep us competitive enough to stay up.

 

Exactly, KL wants to sell the club as a viable going concern, not as a basket case. It is a difficult balancing act though and any more sales will probably leave the club anchored at the foot of the table and less attractive to any investor. I would say we are without doubt 'For Sale'.

[Dalek2003]

It's possibly the lowest risk of all the scenarios. The most profitable way to run a Prem club of our size is to try and spend "just enough" to perpetuate survival in the league. The "reward" is low (ie 15/16th at best) but the risk is low because you're not saddled with huge wages/fees. Even on relegation it is a manageable risk.

 

Spending huge sums chasing success further up the table is higher risk purely because you are spending much more, and the "reward" does not really cover that investment. And quite easy for a club spending huge amounts to finish 15th anyway, or worse, a la QPR.

 

Let's be clear - it's a pretty sorry old strategy but if that is what is happening, they have chosen the lowest - risk option. The tw ats.

 

Pretty much how Norwich City is run.

[Whitey Grandad]

Ah but that is where NC was different! He did make money! The club plus the [players are worth more than the initial and subsequent investments made. That is where he was sharp committed single tracked ruthless and clever. He saw that he could only get better value out of the footballing assets if he improved the clubs footballing future and traded up as he went along always ensuring the value of the club and players was greater than the money put in. A plan that works as long as you continue to grow which we did!

 

It was NC that saw the possibility with Saints and introduced it to ML. It was principally a business proposition and a very clever one at that. It also needed a man of his single minded ruthlessness to implement correctly something ML understood but unfortunately his daughters advisors didn't.

 

The growth had to stop somewhere, probably about 8th in the table?

[adrian lord]

Will we attract Arab money? Are there any Emirates, Sheiks or Gulf states left that are yet to buy a trophy club?

 

Or will we be bought by an Eastern billionaire eccentric, a la Tan?

 

American investors in 'soccer' have caught colds so I doubt we will see anyone from across the pond step in, but you never know...

[shurlock]

It's possibly the lowest risk of all the scenarios. The most profitable way to run a Prem club of our size is to try and spend "just enough" to perpetuate survival in the league. The "reward" is low (ie 15/16th at best) but the risk is low because you're not saddled with huge wages/fees. Even on relegation it is a manageable risk.

 

Spending huge sums chasing success further up the table is higher risk purely because you are spending much more, and the "reward" does not really cover that investment. And quite easy for a club spending huge amounts to finish 15th anyway, or worse, a la QPR.

 

Let's be clear - it's a pretty sorry old strategy but if that is what is happening, they have chosen the lowest - risk option. The tw ats.

 

Agree

[ART]

I am flabbergasted the likes of SaintCharlie and Window Cleaner have nothing to add to this article

[Window Cleaner]

I am flabbergasted the likes of SaintCharlie and Window Cleaner have nothing to add to this article

 

 

what do you want me to add ART, "told you so". I informed you all a couple of weeks back that I'd had an interesting conversation of a Sunday morning down in St Etienne.

People poured scorn on some of it's content and chose to lap up what the club plant was telling them a little later on. Why should I now bother to comment on a fuller version of the same thing. Anyway I did comment, just said that Romain knows what he's about as a rule.

[saint_ed]

what do you want me to add ART, "told you so". I informed you all a couple of weeks back that I'd had an interesting conversation of a Sunday morning down in St Etienne.

People poured scorn on some of it's content and chose to lap up what the club plant was telling them a little later on. Why should I now bother to comment on a fuller version of the same thing. Anyway I did comment, just said that Romain knows what he's about as a rule.

 

I missed this WC, what was said in your conversation in St Etienne?

[ThreeSixty]

I'd rather return to league 1 than be run as an oil club.

[lordswoodsaints]

everything points to a sale of the club........... but wasn't she on record as saying she was in it for the long haul?

 

She also said she was gonna go on a diet to look less like a bullfrog with money

[Highfield Saint]

It could be a longer term strategy from the club in that player sales in excess of book value are represented as income and therefore allow a larger salary pot under FFP rules. This would in theory allow for us to improve the quality of the player base at the club over the medium term as well as generating the cash and asset base to enable the same.

[Window Cleaner]

I missed this WC, what was said in your conversation in St Etienne?

 

the part that I revealed to you which came from a person who was actually Riberao Preto with the FFF was that Morgan would in no way be a Saint's player at the end of the transfer window and that his exit was already planned because there was no way that he could possibly be persuaded to stay. Oddly enough it was in a thread about Morgan Schneiderlin transfer rumours. As I got a lot of bolloaks about it I presumed it wasn't worth going any further down the avenue because it made no difference to anyone. Guan was telling you all all was rosy rosy so what could I add to that. If you remember on that day I contested his authority to say what he was saying in the way he was saying it. Once again I got hassle, no problem i can take it but sometimes I don't quite see the point in inviting any more. If you were to look back over the entire forum since 19 th January last I think that you would find somewhere that the only person to even reflect on the imbalance between the clubs book value (ie sale value) and it's liabilities would be, well yours truly. I reflect on a lot of things, it's what I do, I sometimes put them out there for discussion but when they bring only scorn and abuse then I back off as a rule.

[Killers Knee]

It could be a longer term strategy from the club in that player sales in excess of book value are represented as income and therefore allow a larger salary pot under FFP rules. This would in theory allow for us to improve the quality of the player base at the club over the medium term as well as generating the cash and asset base to enable the same.

 

That would have worked if we purchased our incoming players up front or traded one in one out, but now we are in a position of having to pay inflated wages just to get mediocre in, on top of inflated transfer fees due to our desperation.

[shurlock]

the part that I revealed to you which came from a person who was actually Riberao Preto with the FFF was that Morgan would in no way be a Saint's player at the end of the transfer window and that his exit was already planned because there was no way that he could possibly be persuaded to stay. Oddly enough it was in a thread about Morgan Schneiderlin transfer rumours. As I got a lot of bolloaks about it I presumed it wasn't worth going any further down the avenue because it made no difference to anyone. Guan was telling you all all was rosy rosy so what could I add to that. If you remember on that day I contested his authority to say what he was saying in the way he was saying it. Once again I got hassle, no problem i can take it but sometimes I don't quite see the point in inviting any more. If you were to look back over the entire forum since 19 th January last I think that you would find somewhere that the only person to even reflect on the imbalance between the clubs book value (ie sale value) and it's liabilities would be, well yours truly. I reflect on a lot of things, it's what I do, I sometimes put them out there for discussion but when they bring only scorn and abuse then I back off as a rule.

 

Speculating on a club's book value and liabilities is a red herring, especially if you rely on the data some have drawn attention to. Items are arbitrarily classified and valuation is a fool errand's - we've seen this summer just how much players are worth, casting doubt on the accuracy of crude accounting measures that significantly understate these values.

Edited 29 July, 2014 by shurlock

[Highfield Saint]

That would have worked if we purchased our incoming players up front or traded one in one out, but now we are in a position of having to pay inflated wages just to get mediocre in, on top of inflated transfer fees due to our desperation.

 

We dont know that tbh and even if that is the case we have a position where the salary pot has been increased (although I dont know if it will apply this year) thus allowing better players to be acquired or retained in the medium term.

 

We would need to retain our PL status though.

 

This may be a step backwards to move more than one step forwards in the next few years by which time hopefully our commercial income will have increased to support salaries. If not then there will be a future raft of player sales.

 

Welcome to sustainability.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

Yep, and the sad thing is she will probably release a statement with more bull**** and people will believe that.

 

I said in January something was not right. 7 months on and I am more convinced then ever she wants the £££ and then will split.

 

You may well be right, but why spend nearly 20mill on a couple of replacements? The illusion could have been maintained with cheaper alternatives, surely?