Israel / Gaza

[Batman]

Debating these things with pap is impossible

 

Not once will he accept that all sides are to blame and we should just let them get on with it. It is nothing to do with us, our influence on the world stage is perishing at a quick rate and only Russia, China and mostly, the USA hold any power

 

As with everything else in the Middle East, best we stay out of it.

[pap]

Debating these things with pap is impossible

 

Not once will he accept that all sides are to blame and we should just let them get on with it. It is nothing to do with us, our influence on the world stage is perishing at a quick rate and only Russia, China and mostly, the USA hold any power

 

As with everything else in the Middle East, best we stay out of it.

 

I've just been keeping the thread going until the real experts weigh in, Jamie.

 

What is your understanding of how this crisis came to be?

[Batman]

I've just been keeping the thread going until the real experts weigh in, Jamie.

 

What is your understanding of how this crisis came to be?

 

Don't know a great deal.

I do know that it almost nothing to do with us. Like everything else in the Middle East, we should stay out of it.

 

I'm sure barbaric acts have happened on both sides.

[pap]

Don't know a great deal.

I do know that it almost nothing to do with us. Like everything else in the Middle East, we should stay out of it.

 

I'm sure barbaric acts have happened on both sides.

 

That's where you'd be wrong; it actually has everything to do with us.

 

In 1917, the British Empire agreed the principle of a Jewish homeland.

In 1948, the British Empire made good on this agreement

 

Since 1948 onwards, the UK has vetoed UN resolutions against Israel after it has broken international law. Both David Cameron and Ed Miliband have declared themselves Zionists, which only acts to legitimise the ongoing human rights abuses in Gaza as well as the disastrously disproportionate excursions that we're witnessing right now.

 

I don't go on the main board and wax lyrical about how we need someone to protect the back four, because in truth, my knowledge of football isn't that great, I'd be talking out of my ring and made to look a fool, especially if I was idiotic enough to take a pop at someone who did know what he or she was talking about. Just a thought.

[Batman]

That's where you'd be wrong; it actually has everything to do with us.

 

In 1917, the British Empire agreed the principle of a Jewish homeland.

In 1948, the British Empire made good on this agreement

 

Since 1948 onwards, the UK has vetoed UN resolutions against Israel after it has broken international law. Both David Cameron and Ed Miliband have declared themselves Zionists, which only acts to legitimise the ongoing human rights abuses in Gaza as well as the disastrously disproportionate excursions that we're witnessing right now.

 

I don't go on the main board and wax lyrical about how we need someone to protect the back four, because in truth, my knowledge of football isn't that great, I'd be talking out of my ring and made to look a fool, especially if I was idiotic enough to take a pop at someone who did know what he or she was talking about. Just a thought.

 

At some point we have to say enough is enough. What is happening today is nothing to do with us

Maybe we should go the whole hog and blame the Germans, what about the ottomans? Or sod it, the Romans

 

You usually say we should stay out of say..... Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan no doubt. Why not keep our beeks out of this

[JackFrost]

And you feel that Hamas is inherently less barbaric? Is it not true that this organisation is dedicated to the utter destruction of the Israeli state without compromise?

 

The obvious financial and military might of Israel, when compared to the comparative poverty and feebleness of the Palestinians, reads like a old school Hollywood 'the little guy fights back' script and our sympathies naturally tend towards underdog - but only perhaps if you don't consider the full complexity of the underlying situation deeply enough. 'Might' may not always be 'Right' of course, but that is not to say that the more powerful side in any conflict must invariably be wrong either.

 

Okay the Israeli state may not be the perfect model of a tolerant liberal democracy some on here seem to expect it to be, but please remember Israel has been under attack from it's very inception almost and any state attempting to survive in that type of unremittingly hostile environment is bound to develop in a militaristic manner to some degree. Indeed, were Israel not prepared to defend itself then this state would surely have been destroyed long ago. For all its failings I say Israel remains the closest example the region has to a truly modern progressive state.

 

The loss of life we are seeing in and around the Gaza Strip (on all sides) is appalling, but while the Middle East continues its long await for all parties to reach a satisfactory political settlement to this seemingly intractable problem Israel will continue to defend its people. That is afterall the first purpose of any state is it not?

 

The 'brutal' truth is that no one here has a monopoly ownership of being in the 'right' and only the dead have seen the end of war.

 

Hamas and the Israeli government are as bad as each other. If Hamas had been armed to the teeth by the U.S. they'd only be doing exactly what Israel are doing now.

 

Hamas was actually founded during the first intifada, which was the first major Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation. Israel were illegally occupying Palestinian land long before Hamas came around.

 

Israel has every right to defend itself and it does with the Iron Dome, one of the world's most advanced missile interception systems that destroys approx 90% of all rockets fired from Palestine. But self-defence is not knowingly bombing civilians in UN-run schools, or bombing women and children out of their homes with white phosphorus, or having different civilian rules/laws in the occupied territories that are dependent on race (like it or not, that is apartheid).

 

The key thing however isn't the current violence, it isn't the Palestinian rockets, it isn't the Israeli air strikes, or even the dangerous assumption that this war is anything but completely one-sided. The key thing is the (government supported) illegal settlement building.

 

Israel will 'support' a two-state solution forever more, whilst it gradually encroaches further and further into Palestinian territory. Then one day it'll become increasingly clear that a two-state solution is completely unworkable logistically, and the western world will have to "accept the reality on the ground". A combination of this and the Palestinian's general treatment will inevitably provoke a third intifada, and the Israelis will use this to justify a full-scale invasion.The Palestinians who survive will be forced to flee into neighbouring Arabic countries and Palestine as a state will be effectively wiped out, all under the guise of the "war on terror".

 

Provoking Palestinian violence is exactly what Israel wants. They know Hamas are deluded enough to believe they 'can win', and know Hamas will continue to fight a losing battle.

 

The 'brutal' truth is that history is always written by the victors.

[pap]

At some point we have to say enough is enough. What is happening today is nothing to do with us

Maybe we should go the whole hog and blame the Germans, what about the ottomans? Or sod it, the Romans

 

You usually say we should stay out of say..... Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan no doubt. Why not keep our beeks out of this

 

We are involved. That is the point. Right now, Israel should be being dragged up on all sorts of international crimes. It isn't, because as we've said before, action is vetoed by the US and UK.

 

In Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq, we were being asked to invade other countries without proof that they needed invading. I don't think there is any real doubt as to the current oppressors of the Palestinians.

[Batman]

We are involved. That is the point. Right now, Israel should be being dragged up on all sorts of international crimes. It isn't, because as we've said before, action is vetoed by the US and UK.

 

In Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq, we were being asked to invade other countries without proof that they needed invading. I don't think there is any real doubt as to the current oppressors of the Palestinians.

 

We are involved because we make ourselves involved. Like Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya and nearly Syria.

[pap]

We are involved because we make ourselves involved. Like Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya and nearly Syria.

 

This is a Telegraph article from 2012 goes some way to explaining our involvement.

 

The cowardice at the heart of our relationship with Israel.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/9740044/The-cowardice-at-the-heart-of-our-relationship-with-Israel.html

[Bath Saint]

Watch the video, Bath - it's very good. The surviving crewmen seemed pretty convinced it was pre-meditated and intentional. It might even be an example of something that Israel "has" over the US, although it's something of a nuclear option.

 

I'm sure intelligence and blackmail plays a part in many international relations, but I'll go with what I said before. There are strong lobbying interests in both the US and UK that prevent effective action on the Israel situation.

 

For the record, I think the solution lies in actually implementing international law.

 

Okay, I watched the film. It was well put together and the testimony of the crew was convincing but they have a very situated perspective on events. I read elsewhere (no idea of the efficacy of what I read) that the communications between Israeli helicopter pilots were being monitored by the US and that they show that the Israelis genuinely thought they had hit an Egyptian supply ship but that the command were a little worried that maybe they had made a mistake. They are reported as asking that survivors get pulled out of the sea and questioned to make sure they were speaking Arabic! I can just imagine them thinking "oh ****, what have we done?" The Israeli government than paid millions of dollars in compensation (although that is a moot point given the billions they get in aid from the US).

[Bath Saint]

It seems to me that Pap is right on this one and is making a pretty good case. The UK is totally complicit in the situation in Palestine and turning our back on it does not absolve us of our responsibilities. Hamas are a bunch of tossers, yes, but it is hardly surprising that they muscled their way to power in Gaza given the intransigence of the Israelis. All the people of Gaza see is themselves getting pushed around and the more moderate Palestinian factions getting sidelined or ignored by the Israeli government.

 

There will never be a satisfactory resolution, in my opinion, but it is beholden on the international community to try to find some kind of resolution and letting Israel blast Gaza to pieces is not the way to go about it. All Israel are doing is sewing hatred and creating the next generation of terrorists. If you were a kid dodging bullets and bombs in Gaza, not being able to get out because of the massive wall the Israelis have built, seeing these rich Jews taking over what you thought were your olive groves, what would you do?

[View From The Top]

It seems to me that Pap is right on this one and is making a pretty good case. The UK is totally complicit in the situation in Palestine and turning our back on it does not absolve us of our responsibilities. Hamas are a bunch of tossers, yes, but it is hardly surprising that they muscled their way to power in Gaza given the intransigence of the Israelis. All the people of Gaza see is themselves getting pushed around and the more moderate Palestinian factions getting sidelined or ignored by the Israeli government.

 

There will never be a satisfactory resolution, in my opinion, but it is beholden on the international community to try to find some kind of resolution and letting Israel blast Gaza to pieces is not the way to go about it. All Israel are doing is sewing hatred and creating the next generation of terrorists. If you were a kid dodging bullets and bombs in Gaza, not being able to get out because of the massive wall the Israelis have built, seeing these rich Jews taking over what you thought were your olive groves, what would you do?

 

Nothing will change until the leadership of the USA decides it needs to change, and they won't. The fear of being deemed anti-Semite in the States is the death knell of any career.

[View From The Top]

At some point we have to say enough is enough. What is happening today is nothing to do with us

Maybe we should go the whole hog and blame the Germans, what about the ottomans? Or sod it, the Romans

 

You usually say we should stay out of say..... Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan no doubt. Why not keep our beeks out of this

 

If we turn our back on what's happening in Gaza we lose part of our humanity.

[Goatboy]

That's where you'd be wrong; it actually has everything to do with us.

 

In 1917, the British Empire agreed the principle of a Jewish homeland.

In 1948, the British Empire made good on this agreement

 

Since 1948 onwards, the UK has vetoed UN resolutions against Israel after it has broken international law. Both David Cameron and Ed Miliband have declared themselves Zionists, which only acts to legitimise the ongoing human rights abuses in Gaza as well as the disastrously disproportionate excursions that we're witnessing right now.

 

I don't go on the main board and wax lyrical about how we need someone to protect the back four, because in truth, my knowledge of football isn't that great, I'd be talking out of my ring and made to look a fool, especially if I was idiotic enough to take a pop at someone who did know what he or she was talking about. Just a thought.

 

Wanyama

[Goatboy]

That's where you'd be wrong; it actually has everything to do with us.

 

In 1917, the British Empire agreed the principle of a Jewish homeland.

In 1948, the British Empire made good on this agreement

 

Since 1948 onwards, the UK has vetoed UN resolutions against Israel after it has broken international law. Both David Cameron and Ed Miliband have declared themselves Zionists, which only acts to legitimise the ongoing human rights abuses in Gaza as well as the disastrously disproportionate excursions that we're witnessing right now.

 

I don't go on the main board and wax lyrical about how we need someone to protect the back four, because in truth, my knowledge of football isn't that great, I'd be talking out of my ring and made to look a fool, especially if I was idiotic enough to take a pop at someone who did know what he or she was talking about. Just a thought.

...

Edited 3 August, 2014 by Goatboy
double post

[manji]

Hamas and the Israeli government are as bad as each other. If Hamas had been armed to the teeth by the U.S. they'd only be doing exactly what Israel are doing now.

 

Hamas was actually founded during the first intifada, which was the first major Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation. Israel were illegally occupying Palestinian land long before Hamas came around.

 

Israel has every right to defend itself and it does with the Iron Dome, one of the world's most advanced missile interception systems that destroys approx 90% of all rockets fired from Palestine. But self-defence is not knowingly bombing civilians in UN-run schools, or bombing women and children out of their homes with white phosphorus, or having different civilian rules/laws in the occupied territories that are dependent on race (like it or not, that is apartheid).

 

The key thing however isn't the current violence, it isn't the Palestinian rockets, it isn't the Israeli air strikes, or even the dangerous assumption that this war is anything but completely one-sided. The key thing is the (government supported) illegal settlement building.

 

Israel will 'support' a two-state solution forever more, whilst it gradually encroaches further and further into Palestinian territory. Then one day it'll become increasingly clear that a two-state solution is completely unworkable logistically, and the western world will have to "accept the reality on the ground". A combination of this and the Palestinian's general treatment will inevitably provoke a third intifada, and the Israelis will use this to justify a full-scale invasion.The Palestinians who survive will be forced to flee into neighbouring Arabic countries and Palestine as a state will be effectively wiped out, all under the guise of the "war on terror".

 

Provoking Palestinian violence is exactly what Israel wants. They know Hamas are deluded enough to believe they 'can win', and know Hamas will continue to fight a losing battle.

 

The 'brutal' truth is that history is always written by the victors.

The quote that they are same as each other is ignorant nonsonse. Hamas are trying to protect there illegally occupied homeland by firing and home made rockets (Jewish deaths one). While The Zionists are fighting back with F-16s, Warships,and proper missiles killing hundreds of civilians.

[manji]

Batman read up about the King David Hotel atrocity which killed 100s of British soldiers and the "Stern Gang" which also killed hundreds of British soldiers not to mention unarmed Palestinians.

Israel is an illegal terrorist state and always will be until it is dismantled.

[JackFrost]

The quote that they are same as each other is ignorant nonsonse. Hamas are trying to protect there illegally occupied homeland by firing and home made rockets (Jewish deaths one). While The Zionists are fighting back with F-16s, Warships,and proper missiles killing hundreds of civilians.

 

Just because one side has infinitely more resources than the other doesn't make their intentions any different. Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel and defeated their only domestic political rival through violence. They have also committed their own human rights abuses against their own people.

 

They are led by extremism and are deluded enough to believe that they can defeat Israel through military might, when they are merely a tool that Israel uses to justify war crimes against Palestinians.

[pap]

Just because one side has infinitely more resources than the other doesn't make their intentions any different. Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel and defeated their only domestic political rival through violence. They have also committed their own human rights abuses against their own people.

 

They are led by extremism and are deluded enough to believe that they can defeat Israel through military might, when they are merely a tool that Israel uses to justify war crimes against Palestinians.

 

JackFrost - you've talked much sense on this thread, and I applaud you for that, but let's not narrow the debate down to Hamas. I'm sure that's what Israel would like, but in truth, their forces are rolling against Palestinians of all political persuasions.

 

I agree with you on them being deluded about being able to defeat Israel through military might, but I wonder, would any of us really be any different if some ancient claimant to the UK suddenly got the backing to oust the resident population, and we were hemmed into some part of the country, undergunned and entirely ignored by any legitimate political process?

 

You are completely correct about them being a tool for Israel, but it'd never work outside the machinery of a mass media that seems hell bent on apologism and looking the other way.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Re Pap's regulation leftist anti Israel stance:

 

I don't believe attempting to draw a comparison between Nazi Germany and modern day Israel serves any good purpose because these two states are so fundamentally different in character that the exercise possess no real validity. Indeed I find this comparison to be unnecessary offensive. A better comparison might be our so called 'troubles' in Northern Ireland - a conflict that only resolved itself (as far as it has) when the British Army fought the IRA into a stalemate and a political settlement thus became attractive. Perhaps only when the Israeli military has effectively neutralised Hamas as a miltary threat will a negotiated settlement become possible there. It remains my opinion that aside from the fact that the casualty rates are very unbalanced (because of Israel's clear military superiority) I see no fundamental moral difference between a Israeli killed by a Hamas rocket ... or a Palestinian killed by a Israeli one.

 

For the record did this particular bout of bloodshed not originate when a group of Israeli school boys were murdered on the West Bank a few weeks ago - a crime which in turn brought about the equally vile 'tit for tat' killing of a innocent Arab boy? That sounds just like a incident from Northern Ireland's recent past if you ask me rather than something akin to a latter day Auschwitz in the Mediterranean. While we are on this subject this old 'equalist' can see two crimes here, but if you feel that the first murders can be justified in some sense then by all means please take this opportunity to explain your reasoning to the forum.

 

But if Israel is a 'rogue' state then presumably the military wing of Hamas must be accredited with the same epitaph too - indeed the record shows that this country, the United Sates, Egypt and the EU formally classify Hamas as a terrorist organisation. The record also shows that the founding charter (or covenant) of Hamas states that this organisation is dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the creation of a Palestinian state in its place. I see a few (welcome) signs that elements among the current Hamas leadership may be attempting to backtrack on that point of principle, but please try to imagine just how difficult it is for Israel to enter into meaningful negotiations with a organisation with that Jihadist ethos still entrenched at its very heart.

 

The state of Israel may be a comparatively recent development in historical terms but it should go without saying that the history of Jewish inhabitation in the area is a (very) ancient one indeed. Israel exists, it considers itself to be a legitimate entity, it is recognised as such by the UN. So with little or no chance of the military balance of power shifting in the foreseeable future (or ever) the Realpolitik of the situation is that the onus falls on Hamas - or perhaps on some more progressive alternate Palestinian movement that may replace it one day - to come to some sort of accommodation with their powerful Jewish neighbours.

 

If not their unfortunate people will surely continue to suffer the terrible consequences they are experiencing today.

[pap]

Re Pap's regulation leftist anti Israel stance:

 

I don't believe attempting to draw a comparison between Nazi Germany and modern day Israel serves any good purpose because these two states are so fundamentally different in character that the exercise possess no real validity.

Indeed I find this comparison to be unnecessary offensive.

 

Why do you find this offensive, and why aren't the comparisons valid? Merely stating that you're offended by another's opinion is not an argument, even if you try to shift debate onto more manageable ground afterward.

 

I think that there are some startling comparisons to be made, if one is brave enough to make them. Galloway has already made the Warsaw ghetto comparison, one I've already repeated and you've ignored. A group of people, hemmed in, without political representation or certainty in any other outcome apart from dying within their walls.

 

Palestinians have been rounded up, dehumanised and left to die on the few pieces of land they have left.

 

It also doesn't help that you're arguing from the perspective of a recent rocket bringing all this calamity. Since Israel was founded, the Palestinians have lost homes, businesses, whole cities and any ancestral right to return to the land of their birth, despite the borders being open for anyone Jewish looking to help build the Israeli state. You are demonstrably incapable of seeing this episode from the perspective of the Palestinians, which is odd, as if the shoe were on the other foot, and proud Toby Bull was ekeing it out in some cave in Cornwall, I doubt you'd have too many problems if he fought back against his hypothetical invaders.

 

A better comparison might be our so called 'troubles' in Northern Ireland - a conflict that only resolved itself (as far as it has) when the British Army fought the IRA into a stalemate and a political settlement thus became attractive. Perhaps only when the Israeli military has effectively neutralised Hamas as a miltary threat will a negotiated settlement become possible there. It remains my opinion that aside from the fact that the casualty rates are very unbalanced (because of Israel's clear military superiority) I see no fundamental moral difference between a Israeli killed by a Hamas rocket ... or a Palestinian killed by a Israeli one.

 

This is a poor comparison - maybe if you weren't trying to serve two masters, implying that British persistence somehow "won" the conflict, you'd have made a better fist of it.

 

If the British derived any victory from Northern Ireland, it was the realisation that while propaganda might be something you can feed the public, it's not suitable for conflict resolution. Sorting something as historically complex out would take a lot of messy, and sometimes very ugly decisions. People formerly branded as terrorists, legally unable to have their actual voices heard on television, are now part of a power-sharing arrangement in Stormont.

 

This is because the UK belatedly realised that we were never going to solve NI by killing terrorists to death, that we inevitably had to deal with the people we didn't much like, because they were going to be around afterwards.

 

The present government Israel has no interest in a two state solution, and therefore isn't as constrained.

 

 

For the record did this particular bout of bloodshed not originate when a group of Israeli school boys were murdered on the West Bank a few weeks ago - a crime which in turn brought about the equally vile 'tit for tat' killing of a innocent Arab boy? That sounds just like a incident from Northern Ireland's recent past if you ask me rather than something akin to a latter day Auschwitz in the Mediterranean. While we are on this subject this old 'equalist' can see two crimes here, but if you feel that the first murders can be justified in some sense then by all means please take this opportunity to explain your reasoning to the forum.

 

Nope. It all began in 1948, when people were forcibly removed from their homes and pushed toward the ghettos we see now.

 

But if Israel is a 'rogue' state then presumably the military wing of Hamas must be accredited with the same epitaph too - indeed the record shows that this country, the United Sates, Egypt and the EU formally classify Hamas as a terrorist organisation. The record also shows that the founding charter (or covenant) of Hamas states that this organisation is dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the creation of a Palestinian state in its place. I see a few (welcome) signs that elements among the current Hamas leadership may be attempting to backtrack on that point of principle, but please try to imagine just how difficult it is for Israel to enter into meaningful negotiations with a organisation with that Jihadist

ethos still entrenched at its very heart.

 

Again, nope. Hamas is not a state. Palestinian doesn't equal Hamas, however many times you try to make it so.

 

To use your crappy NI example, the IRA had some pretty extreme views too, including it being perfectly legitimate to assassinate members of the British serving forces. They are part of the political process now, and condemn the very violence they used to orchestrate.

 

That's only possible because at some point, someone stopped treating them as merely terrorists.

 

You're going one further. We've had two schools bombed this week and you're still talking about Hamas.

 

The state of Israel may be a comparatively recent development in historical terms but it should go without saying that the history of Jewish inhabitation in the area is a (very) ancient one indeed.

 

Oh aye? When was the last time that Israel was in the hands of those that practiced Judaism?

 

Israel exists, it considers itself to be a legitimate entity, it is recognised as such by the UN. So with little or no chance of the military balance of power shifting in the foreseeable future (or ever) the Realpolitik of the situation is that the onus falls on Hamas - or perhaps on some more progressive alternate Palestinian movement that may replace it one day - to come to some sort of accommodation with their powerful Jewish neighbours.

 

If not their unfortunate people will surely continue to suffer the terrible consequences they are experiencing today.

 

Honestly Charlie, I'm surprised that someone that touts himself as a historian can come up with this guff. You frame the whole conflict as if it starts and ends with Hamas. I'll suppose they'll be to blame for the Palestinian genocide when there are none of them left. Posthumously, of course

 

Much respect lost here, I'm afraid.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Well I'm sorry to disappoint - but to be frank about it I too was more than a little disappointed to see lazy comparisons drawn between a regime as inherently evil and pernicious as Nazi Germany certainly was and modern day Israel. But I'm more than happy to let others decided which analogy - Ulster or the Nazi's - they find to be the more persuasive one.

 

But if you want to ignore your 'Godwin's Internet Law of Nazi Analogies' so blatantly and pursue the Nazi matter further, do you feel that Israel's occupation of the West Bank, the Golan Heights or the Sinai Desert post 'Yom Kippur' for instance equates readily to Hitler's invasion of Poland or France in 1939/40? Were not the German invasions attempts to semi permanently conquer (or annex) territory while those Israeli occupations limited measures taken to directly improve the territorial security of their state? For that matter how often did Hitler agree to remove his forces from territory they had occupied by force of arms as Israel has on more than one occasion?

 

'Not often' is the answer.

 

I take not even as vehement a critic of Israel as you are would dare to suggest that Israel is engaging in a policy of mass genocide against the Palestinian people as the Nazi's did against the Jews? Terrible as there fate is millions of innocent Palestinians are today the fact is they are not being herded into gas chambers en masse as you well know. That's why your comparison is so deeply offensive. Given that we are where we are I'm not at all sure how you expect Israel to respond to Hamas rockets attacks and their (surprisingly sophisticated) tunnelling campaign against Israel - do nothing perhaps?

 

As for the great divide you draw between Hamas and the Palestinian people, I will concede you do have some sort of point here. It's true governments seldom perfectly represent the views of their electorates. But Hamas was of course elected into power by a substantial (44%) share of the vote in Gaza. Just as a (minority) of the 1933 Weimar electorate must bare at least some responsibility for the many crimes of Nazi Germany that ensued, it follows therefore that the Palestinian people are culpable (to some extent) for the Hamas administration that so many of them have chosen to represent them. I would not be too hard on them however because their circumstances are dire and that often polarises this type of situation.

 

Finally, despite another long and exhaustive multi quote reply you forgot for some reason to condemn the murder of those three Israeli children that initiated this round of bloodshed. This awful incident seems germane to the question. Feel free to remedy that surprising oversight or you may run the risk of others - less charitably inclined than I am - drawing their own conclusions from your silence.

 

That conclusion they might draw would not be one I personalty would want to be associated with ...

[pap]

Well I'm sorry to disappoint - but to be frank about it I too was more than a little disappointed to see lazy comparisons drawn between a regime as inherently evil and pernicious as Nazi Germany certainly was and modern day Israel. But I'm more than happy to let others decided which analogy - Ulster or the Nazi's - they find to be the more persuasive one.

 

Well, it's always nice to be accused of making lazy comparisons by someone making nonsensical comparisons, especially when accompanied with the prior claim that the British somehow "won" the Troubles.

 

Having spent three years of my life living in a post GFA Northern Ireland, I know that the situation over there is rather different to Israel and Gaza. First, though there are definitely areas that swing one way or the other, and notorious prisons like the Maze, there was never any equivalent of Gaza in Northern Ireland, never an area in which the general population were locked up, hemmed in, and left to die. Indeed, in many counties, including the one I lived in, allegiance alternated from town to town. In terms of democracy lost, residents of NI had to put up with checkpoints, secret trials and a British armed forces occupation. Far from ideal, but a far cry from the plight of the average Palestinian. Anyone wanting out could leave, and often did.

 

Those in Gaza can't leave, nor could those trapped in the Second World War ghettos. The Palestinians have worse days than Bloody Sunday almost every time Israel rolls into town.

 

 

 

But if you want to ignore your 'Godwin's Internet Law of Nazi Analogies' so blatantly and pursue the Nazi matter further, do you feel that Israel's occupation of the West Bank, the Golan Heights or the Sinai Desert post 'Yom Kippur' for instance equates readily to Hitler's invasion of Poland or France in 1939/40? Were not the German invasions attempts to semi permanently conquer (or annex) territory while those Israeli occupations limited measures taken to directly improve the territorial security of their state? For that matter how often did Hitler agree to remove his forces from territory they had occupied by force of arms as Israel has on more than one occasion?

 

'Not often' is the answer.

 

Ridiculous, but I'll field it anyway.

 

First off, you're wrong about Poland. The Germans did have territory there, the League of Nations free city of Danzig, ultimately the key point of dispute that led to the invasion. Long story short, we guaranteed the Poles safety, they actually believed it and got belligerent over Danzig. As Pat Buchanan says, the war guarantee guaranteed the war. Who knows what might have happened if it, and the corridor, were restored to German control.

 

The invasion of France certainly couldn't be justified in the same way, nor does it need to be.

 

You are now in the ridiculous position where you're arguing it's okay for Israel not to withdraw their forces because Adolf Hitler wouldn't have done the same thing with his forces in WW2.

 

Finally on this point, is it now okay for any invader to do what you've done here and say "nah, nah - I'm not invading ya, honest. I'm just directly improving the territorial security of my land (by taking yours)"?

 

I take not even as vehement a critic of Israel as you are would dare to suggest that Israel is engaging in a policy of mass genocide against the Palestinian people as the Nazi's did against the Jews? Terrible as there fate is millions of innocent Palestinians are today the fact is they are not being herded into gas chambers en masse as you well know.

 

I'm not claiming for a second that the Israelis are bunging Palestinians into gas chambers, but does it really make any difference over the long term? When tanks roll in and destroy schools, hospitals and the vital infrastructure? Look at how much Palestinians have lost in the last 70 years. Do you think they'll survive another century?

 

That's why your comparison is so deeply offensive. Given that we are where we are I'm not at all sure how you expect Israel to respond to Hamas rockets attacks and their (surprisingly sophisticated) tunnelling campaign against Israel - do nothing perhaps?

 

Israel, for its own sake, should try to be the responsible modern state it claims to be, and recognise that it has to make concessions. I know you'll immediately counter with "but Hamas said...", but to drag your NI comparison back in again, this time usefully, a lot of stuff was said during the Troubles that people ignore now.

 

My position has been consistent. Take off the stabilisers and let Israel fend for itself as an independent country. That means no vetoes, no special treatment and the correct application of international law.

 

As for the great divide you draw between Hamas and the Palestinian people, I will concede you do have some sort of point here. It's true governments seldom perfectly represent the views of their electorates. But Hamas was of course elected into power by a substantial (44%) share of the vote in Gaza. Just as a (minority) of the 1933 Weimar electorate must bare at least some responsibility for the many crimes of Nazi Germany that ensued, it follows therefore that the Palestinian people are culpable (to some extent) for the Hamas administration that so many of them have chosen to represent them. I would not be too hard on them however because their circumstances are dire and that often polarises this type of situation.

 

I'm surprised more people didn't vote for them. Still, 44% of the vote is not a substantial share of the vote under the circumstances. People vote for extremists because they think they'll fight harder. More than half of all voting age Palestinians rejected what Hamas had to offer, yet you've tried to equate Palestinians with them throughout. I'd be about to congratulate you for a bit of honest debating, but there is this.

 

Finally, despite another long and exhaustive multi quote reply you forgot for some reason to condemn the murder of those three Israeli children that initiated this round of bloodshed. This awful incident seems germane to the question. Feel free to remedy that surprising oversight or you may run the risk of others - less charitably inclined than I am - drawing their own conclusions from your silence.

 

That conclusion they might draw would not be one I personalty would want to be associated with ...

 

"Condemn the deaths of the three Israel soldiers right now, or you're an anti-semite!"

 

(Did I catch your subtext there correctly, Charlie?)

 

I've always found your jingoistic regurgitation of history to be a little juvenile, but these last couple of posts have been a revelation in plumbing the shallows of your historical knowledge. You will taken seriously no more. Quite the feat, considering your audience.

Edited 4 August, 2014 by pap

[pap]

Demonstration in London this Saturday:-

 

http://stopwar.org.uk/events/august-9-national-demonstration-for-gaza-no-excuses-be-there#.U989PPldXcj

[buctootim]

A better comparison might be our so called 'troubles' in Northern Ireland - a conflict that only resolved itself (as far as it has) when the British Army fought the IRA into a stalemate and a political settlement thus became attractive. Perhaps only when the Israeli military has effectively neutralised Hamas as a miltary threat will a negotiated settlement become possible there.

 

Its true that the army did effectively neutralise the IRA through infiltration and other forms of intelligence - towards the end over 90% of IRA actions were foiled before execution. However you have to consider the background against which the armed struggle lost support and people became more prepared to inform. Improving relations between the Republic of Ireland and the UK; voluntary devolution for Wales and Scotland and massive aid to create jobs / build huge numbers of better quality houses made many Republicans realise that violence was actually delaying political progress in NI, not helping bring it about. I dont see those parallel circumstances in Israel / Gaza.

[pap]

“The tradition of friendship between Israel and France is an old one and Israel's right to security is total, but this right does not justify the killing of children and the slaughter of civilians.

 

“That is why we support and demand the establishment of a real ceasefire as proposed by Egypt and why we are ready, as French and Europeans, to contribute to it in a concrete way.

 

“It is also why a political solution is essential... and should in my opinion be imposed by the international community.”

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-french-minister-says-solution-must-be-imposed-as-turkeys-pm-accuses-israel-of-deliberately-killing-mothers-and-children-9646491.html

[Minty]

1700+ deaths.

 

Nearly 10,000 injured.

 

So far...

 

I started this thread trying to highlight some of the efforts that have been made to find positive ways forward - it was inevitable that the thread would find its way to some serious discussion and perhaps disagreement along the way, but personally I think that the more people get into the details, the less we remember things like those figures above... and that's ultimately what matters.

 

Strangely enough I thought The Last Leg on Friday night had some of the best takes on things, including Adam Hills' rant... it may have seemed to be a frivolous comment on something so serious, but it cut to the heart of the matter IMO. Not sure if anyone saw it.

[pap]

Not sure "don't be a d!ck" really covers it.

 

[Minty]

Not sure "don't be a d!ck" really covers it.

 

Well no, I wasn't being literal (and there was more on the programme than just that btw) - but then you and Charlie and whoever else can debate these things til you're blue in the face but the figures I quoted will only continue to go up. There seems to be little or no real acknowledgement of the humanitarian crisis from either side, and that is more important than anything else they (or you) wish to debate.

 

As the earlier Huffington Post piece discussed, many have lost sight of the underlying human losses, in favour of trying to argue one side or the other. It's just wrong.

 

So my point was more that the show distilled things down a bit and focused on the crux of the matter. Debating these things to the nth degree just seems to divert attention from the single most important thing needed - stopping the killing.

[pap]

Well no, I wasn't being literal (and there was more on the programme than just that btw) - but then you and Charlie and whoever else can debate these things til you're blue in the face but the figures I quoted will only continue to go up. There seems to be little or no real acknowledgement of the humanitarian crisis from either side, and that is more important than anything else they (or you) wish to debate.

 

As the earlier Huffington Post piece discussed, many have lost sight of the underlying human losses, in favour of trying to argue one side or the other. It's just wrong.

 

So my point was more that the show distilled things down a bit and focused on the crux of the matter. Debating these things to the nth degree just seems to divert attention from the single most important thing needed - stopping the killing.

 

From my perspective, any attempt at equalising the situation is effectively propaganda, particularly if it plays the Hamas=Palestinian card, which this does. I don't think the video offers any solutions beyond making people feel slightly better about their apathy on a Friday night.

[Minty]

From my perspective, any attempt at equalising the situation is effectively propaganda, particularly if it plays the Hamas=Palestinian card, which this does. I don't think the video offers any solutions beyond making people feel slightly better about their apathy on a Friday night.

 

I think you're completely over-analysing.

 

It isn't offering solutions, or equalising anything, and it certainly isn't trying to go head to head with you or anyone else in a political discussion. It is rising above all of that and simply saying that innocent people, including so many children, are dying. And that needs to stop.

 

I'm sure you agree with that.

[pap]

The deputy speaker of the Knesset's plan for Palestine.

 

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/concentrate-and-exterminate-israel-parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan

 

Anyone that thinks the Nazi comparison is a little strong should really take a look.

 

Some highlights:-

 

“There are no two states, and there are no two peoples. There is only one state for one people.”

a) The IDF [israeli army] shall designate certain open areas on the Sinai border, adjacent to the sea, in which the civilian population will be concentrated, far from the built-up areas that are used for launches and tunneling. In these areas, tent encampments will be established, until relevant emigration destinations are determined.

 

e) Those who insist on staying, if they can be proven to have no affiliation with Hamas, will be required to publicly sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel, and receive a blue ID card similar to that of the Arabs of East Jerusalem.

 

Verified at Facebook page, which in turn, is verified by Knesset's website.

 

http://knesset.gov.il/mk/eng/mk_eng.asp?mk_individual_id_t=885

 

Which way to the Genocide Convention?

[View From The Top]

Personally I think the Israelis are acting in a very similar towards the Palestinians as the Nazi's did towards the Jews. Segregate, apportion blame, dehumanise, demonise and then finally......

[Verbal]

The deputy speaker of the Knesset's plan for Palestine.

 

...Which way to the Genocide Convention?

 

He may be the deputy speaker but Moshe Feiglin is also a notorious and much vilified fascist. What other Israeli, or anyone of Jewish descent, would come out with this?

 

Hitler was an unparalleled military genius. Nazism promoted Germany from a low to a fantastic physical and ideological status. The ragged, trashy youth body turned into a neat and orderly part of society and Germany received an exemplary regime, a proper justice system and public order. Hitler savored good music. He would paint. This was no bunch of thugs. They merely used thugs and homosexuals.

 

Not even this renegade Israeli government would support anything close to Feiglin's lunatic plans for ethnic cleansing on such a scale. This is a red herring. Ethnic cleansing does take place, and has been for years, both in the occupied territories and in East Jerusalem. And that is bad enough. But don't conflate these unjust, immoral policies with the near-genocidal ravings of this lunatic.

 

So (for once) Charlie is right - don't make lazy equivalencies with Nazism with such apoplectic glee. (What a surprise, coming from you.)

[pap]

He may be the deputy speaker but Moshe Feiglin is also a notorious and much vilified fascist. What other Israeli, or anyone of Jewish descent, would come out with this?

 

Check your inverted racism there, Verbal. Is it your contention that Feiglin is the only person, either Israeli or of Jewish descent, that would come out with this?

 

Your point is moot the moment anyone sees similar commentary from the numerous Feiglin-likes on the Internet. Ran into quite a few Israeli fascists who were all having a right old hoot at my mate being shot to death, largely on account of the fact he spent time helping Palestinians. I can send you the link to Feiglin's vile troll cousins if you want, but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

Not even this renegade Israeli government would support anything close to Feiglin's lunatic plans for ethnic cleansing on such a scale. This is a red herring. Ethnic cleansing does take place, and has been for years, both in the occupied territories and in East Jerusalem. And that is bad enough. But don't conflate these unjust, immoral policies with the near-genocidal ravings of this lunatic.

 

Let's hope that's the case. Personally, I suspect Feiglin and the like will get everything they want. In time. Regardless, the man should be pulled up before the Genocide Convention.

 

So (for once) Charlie is right - don't make lazy equivalencies with Nazism with such apoplectic glee. (What a surprise, coming from you.)

 

There's no glee here. I genuinely think the Israelis will do themselves and the rest of the Diaspora lasting harm if they continue along this path. Any sympathy that they have for past persecution and the mass murder inflicted on their people will evaporate if they orchestrate an effective genocide themselves.

Edited 4 August, 2014 by pap

[jjsaint]

I believe in peace, not taking sides. Once you have taken sides then you become an aggressor.

 

Of course one side is guilty of more atrocities at this stage, but vilification will not make them disappear. And Hamas are no angels.

[pap]

A couple of excellent interviews with Henry Siegman, former executive director of the Jewish American Congress. It'll take a couple of hours of your time, but if you're genuinely interested in getting a deeper understanding of the background and attendant hypocrisies, these candid interviews come highly recommended.

 

Henry Siegman, Leading Voice of U.S. Jewry, on Gaza: "A Slaughter of Innocents"

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/30/henry_siegman_leading_voice_of_us

 

 

U.S. Jewish Leader Henry Siegman to Israel: Stop Killing Palestinians and End the Occupation

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/31/us_jewish_leader_henry_siegman_to

[Verbal]

Check your inverted racism there, Verbal. Is it your contention that Feiglin is the only person, either Israeli or of Jewish descent, that would come out with this?

 

Go on then, genius. Find another prominent Israeli politician singing the praises of the Nazis.

[pap]

Go on then, genius. Find another prominent Israeli politician singing the praises of the Nazis.

 

Don't need to, because that's not what you asked.

 

He may be the deputy speaker but Moshe Feiglin is also a notorious and much vilified fascist. What other Israeli, or anyone of Jewish descent, would come out with this?

[Verbal]

Don't need to, because that's not what you asked.

 

Oh well, please excuse me. I hadn't understood because only Jew haters refer to Jews as a race. Go on then - find a quote.

 

And give it up on the genocide crap. However bad this is (and it is) it isn't genocide - look up the definition.

 

If you absolutely need analogies for the destructiveness and underlying prejudicial attitudes of the Netanyahu regime, it isn't with the Nazis but with Apartheid.

[pap]

Oh well, please excuse me. I hadn't understood because only Jew haters refer to Jews as a race. Go on then - find a quote.

 

Don't get shirty because you've lost the power to express yourself, or indeed, the ability to edit whatever frenzied message that you shot out in anger.

 

And give it up on the genocide crap. However bad this is (and it is) it isn't genocide - look up the definition.

 

The systematic, widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious or ethnic group.

 

Of course, you could argue that Palestinians still exist, by dint of the fact that 700,000 refugees fled when Israeli soldiers forced them out of homes and businesses. The rest just looks like a question of timetable to me.

 

If you absolutely need analogies for the destructiveness and underlying prejudicial attitudes of the Netanyahu regime, it isn't with the Nazis but with Apartheid.

 

There are many parallels to draw upon here, and I agree with you on apartheid. Problem is, apartheid is predicated on the idea of racial supremacy, which was a very Nazi way of thinking.

 

See ya at 00:01.

[buctootim]

...

Edited 4 August, 2014 by buctootim
waste of time

[pap]

I know you think you come across as a clever and nimble debater, but actually it just hands the argument to whoever you're arguing with (and it is arguing, not debating).

 

I know you think you come across as someone sound, rational and unafraid to speak out, but actually, it just looks a man who is scared of addressing the same thing with Lord Verbalmort (he who must not be named), acting like a compliant lackey, waiting to pick an easier target, and ultimately failing.

Edited 4 August, 2014 by pap

[Minty]

Another thread disappears up it's own arse thanks to people having no maturity or respect for those with different views. Well done, thanks guys.

[pap]

Another thread disappears up it's own arse thanks to people having no maturity or respect for those with different views. Well done, thanks guys.

 

One of the things I disliked most about my penultimate permanent place of employment was my boss' tendency to send emails to everyone, when he really wanted to address one or two people who were taking the píss.

 

He lacked the bravery to confront, not a problem I'm overly burdened with.

[pap]

Some sick puppies in this world.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/11011366/Bomb-Gaza-the-disgusting-games-on-Googles-app-store.html

[pap]

Brian Eno: In a world of horrors, why I single out Israel

http://stopwar.org.uk/news/brian-eno-in-a-world-of-horrors-why-i-single-out-the-crimes-of-israel#.U-Bs9PldXcg

[pap]

Baroness Warsi has just announced her resignation on Twitter. She can no longer support government policy on Gaza.

 

Sayeeda Warsi @SayeedaWarsi · 10m

 

 

 

With deep regret I have this morning written to the Prime Minister & tendered my resignation. I can no longer support Govt policy on #Gaza

 

• 
  

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Some sick puppies in this world.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/11011366/Bomb-Gaza-the-disgusting-games-on-Googles-app-store.html

 

Indeed.

 

In a similar but slightly off-topic matter. Within hours of the Malaysian airlines flight being shot down t'other week, someone put in an application to Trademark MH17 & MH30.

 

Apologies for the mail link, but it was the only one I could find. A lawyer friend told me about it the story.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2703752/Sick-trade-mark-trolls-aim-profit-MH17-disaster-shadowy-Malaysian-company-applies-Australian-license.html

 

Ps Pap, before you start - the 'Trademark Troll' thing is a myth. It is not possible to 'buy up' TM's and use them to troll other people, like you can with Patents. Patent Trolls, I'm looking at you IBM, are very much a real thing.

[pap]

Indeed.

 

In a similar but slightly off-topic matter. Within hours of the Malaysian airlines flight being shot down t'other week, someone put in an application to Trademark MH17 & MH30.

 

Apologies for the mail link, but it was the only one I could find. A lawyer friend told me about it the story.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2703752/Sick-trade-mark-trolls-aim-profit-MH17-disaster-shadowy-Malaysian-company-applies-Australian-license.html

 

Ps Pap, before you start - the 'Trademark Troll' thing is a myth. It is not possible to 'buy up' TM's and use them to troll other people, like you can with Patents. Patent Trolls, I'm looking at you IBM, are very much a real thing.

 

If nothing else, it just illustrates how much the barrier to entry has been lifted through rapid application development tools. I'd be interested to see if the authors break cover.