Israel / Gaza

[Minty]

Here's an alternative, but very very welcome, angle:

 

http://www.theage.com.au/world/jews-and-arabs-refuse-to-be-enemies-20140724-zw7q0.html

[Hatch]

loving some of those pictures.

[so22saint]

More of this sort of thing

[jjsaint]

This is good to see, and there is more of this than the media wishes to show.

[buctootim]

This is good to see, and there is more of this than the media wishes to show.

 

There is, but most of it outside of Israel unfortunately. Sometimes only people outside of a country and away from the domestic politics can see things clearly.

[pap]

Fair play to the bloke for protesting, but this undermines the oft-repeated claim that Israel is the only democracy in the region.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=680935605323935

 

For most, democracy includes freedom of speech as well as voting.

[SuperMikey]

Fair play to the bloke for protesting, but this undermines the oft-repeated claim that Israel is the only democracy in the region.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=680935605323935

 

For most, democracy includes freedom of speech as well as voting.

 

I saw that the other day, absolutely disgusting by the Israeli police. The actual event with this guy happened a couple of years ago, but it's still very relevant with this conflict.

[pap]

I saw that the other day, absolutely disgusting by the Israeli police. The actual event with this guy happened a couple of years ago, but it's still very relevant with this conflict.

 

Those are scenes from a police state, if we're being perfectly honest. It's got it all; freedom of speech literally trampled to the ground and good men letting evil triumph by standing around doing nothing.

[pap]

Is the Israel/Gaza conflict causing a rise in anti-Semitism in Britain?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p023hwkh

 

Emma Barnett vs a very feisty Alexei Sayle.

[jjsaint]

Maybe we can keep this as the 'peace in the Middle East' thread or the 'not everybody hates everybody else' thread and have a separate one where everyone can unleash their inner Joey Barton/Yossi Benayoun should they so desire?

[pap]

Maybe we can keep this as the 'peace in the Middle East' thread or the 'not everybody hates everybody else' thread and have a separate one where everyone can unleash their inner Joey Barton/Yossi Benayoun should they so desire?

 

Think people ran out material for that in around three posts.

[Jonnyboy]

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

[bridge too far]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/27/jon-snow-gaza-israel-video-children-_n_5624934.html?1406484374

 

[SuperMikey]

Is the Israel/Gaza conflict causing a rise in anti-Semitism in Britain?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p023hwkh

 

Emma Barnett vs a very feisty Alexei Sayle.

Just listened to this - by refusing to condemn the murder of women and children by the Israeli government, is Emma Barnett not tacitly supporting it? Funny how quick she was to chuck the threat of a libel case at Sayle for saying that.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I don't know enough about the entire dispute. I'm not taking sides, both sides have done some seriously messed up stuff.

 

At the risk of sounding like some crusty old hippy, I just want it to stop. The people losing out are civilians, and many of them children. It's just heartbreaking to see.

 

I sat reading as this girl was effectively live tweeting the attacks in Gaza, it's just devastating.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10997610/Teen-Palestinian-girl-on-Twitter-live-tweets-Gaza-bomb-attack.html

[pap]

I don't know enough about the entire dispute. I'm not taking sides, both sides have done some seriously messed up stuff.

 

At the risk of sounding like some crusty old hippy, I just want it to stop. The people losing out are civilians, and many of them children. It's just heartbreaking to see.

 

I sat reading as this girl was effectively live tweeting the attacks in Gaza, it's just devastating.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10997610/Teen-Palestinian-girl-on-Twitter-live-tweets-Gaza-bomb-attack.html

 

You don't sound like a crusty old hippy.

[Minty]

Agree KRG - I think most feel the same way.

 

This piece struck a chord with me... i've seen plenty of people being labelled anti-Semite or pro-Hamas for daring to discuss Israel's approach... when all most of us are concerned for is the basic humanity of situation.

 

http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2014/07/25/empathizing-with-gaza-does-not-make-me-anti-semitic-nor-pro-hamas-or-anti-israel-it-makes-me-human/

[CB Saint]

There is, but most of it outside of Israel unfortunately. Sometimes only people outside of a country and away from the domestic politics can see things clearly.

 

Bloody hard to be objective when some sod is lobbing bombs at you (in either direction)

[pap]

George Galloway speech, The Crisis of Palestine.

 

 

Recorded on 23rd July 2014.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Once again, this young lady's Twitter feed made for depressing reading last night:

 

https://twitter.com/Farah_Gazan

[pap]

Russell Brand on Sean Hannity.

 

[pap]

UN school bombed, after people apparently told to take shelter there.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-another-un-school-hit-in-further-night-of-fierce-bombardment

 

Tweeted this earlier, but I wonder if Cameron and Miliband are still proud Zionists.

[aintforever]

It is amazing we have sanctions against Russia and not Israel, it is barbaric what they are doing.

[Minty]

Another excellent article: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/hilary-stauffer/gaza-palestine-israel_b_5625088.html

[buctootim]

Another excellent article: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/hilary-stauffer/gaza-palestine-israel_b_5625088.html

 

 

Its a good article as far as it goes - 'both sides have done wrong and both sides are partly right' - but thats not a new thought. The tricky part is identifying a solution.

[Minty]

Its a good article as far as it goes - 'both sides have done wrong and both sides are partly right' - but thats not a new thought. The tricky part is identifying a solution.

 

Agreed, but I think it's an important thought and one that needs to be given a bit more publicity to quell some of the more extreme opinions. Identifying a solution needs people on both 'sides' to stop looking on it as something to be 'won'... so if this kind of thinking can pervade into more peoples consciousness then I think it can help.

[pap]

Agreed, but I think it's an important thought and one that needs to be given a bit more publicity to quell some of the more extreme opinions. Identifying a solution needs people on both 'sides' to stop looking on it as something to be 'won'... so if this kind of thinking can pervade into more peoples consciousness then I think it can help.

 

There are a lot of people with very extreme opinions are in the Israeli government.

 

Articles like this amount to thinly disguised apologism, in my view. Any attempt to balance the harm done immediately betrays the disproportionate amount of loss, death and suffering the Palestinians have had inflicted on them. A nuclear armed state versus what George Galloway describes as a modern day Warsaw ghetto. Like him or not, would you have much of a problem with his description?

[Minty]

I'm not sure there's any apologism in that article to be honest - it's not trying to justify or excuse any behaviour, or 'balance the harm done' whatsoever, just highlight the fact that the continual 'taking of sides' certainly isn't helping anyone.

[pap]

I'm not sure there's any apologism in that article to be honest - it's not trying to justify or excuse any behaviour, or 'balance the harm done' whatsoever, just highlight the fact that the continual 'taking of sides' certainly isn't helping anyone.

Taking sides has been the problem throughout. We've taken one side since 1917.

 

Do you think Israel would be as belligerent without the cast iron backing of the US and allies?

 

What about just withdrawing that support?

[Minty]

Agreed completely - sadly I can't that happening.

[pap]

Agreed completely - sadly I can't that happening.

 

The truth is that Israel only really gets to be what it is by the leave of the UK/US veto power in the UN Security Council. The rest of the world has drafted resolution upon resolution, all waiting to be acted on - but entirely toothless if the West's permanent members block the action.

 

So why aren't civilised nations like the US and UK weighing in with something approaching condemnation? Lots of reasons. You're not allowed to mention it, but Israel has hugely powerful lobbying interests in the UK. According to its own website, 80% of the Conservative party MPs belong to Conservative Friends for Israel. A mate of mine was involved with Labour Friends for Palestine. He told me that Labour Friends of Israel ploughed £10million into getting preferred candidates selected; it has always been seen as a fast track for promotion - Blair was a member.

 

Overseas, you have organisations like the Anti-Defamation League and AIPAC exerting a lot of influence. It certainly doesn't help that so many Americans are religious to the point of literalism; end timers in particular think Israel has to be kept about for prophesy to manifest itself. Closer to home, we saw the recent furore over Anelka and the quenelle, something nobody gave a crap about until a bunch of people told us it was important and told us to give a crap about it.

 

Really though, it's collective guilt over past failure to act in the past that prevents us from being critical of Israel in the present. It's a ridiculous position to have in 2014; most of the perpetrators of the crimes against the European Jewish diaspora are either dead or in prison. Israel is a nuclear-armed state with a modern defence force, while the Palestinians are hemmed into increasingly shrinking and uninhabitable ghettos. Left to continue, it'll be an effective cleansing of the Palestinians from Israeli soil. They haven't had as much time to get their diaspora going, so within a few generations, they really could disappear as a race. Traces will remain, but all sense of nationhood will be gone, and we'd have let it happen, either because we felt guilty or didn't want the shít one can attract when speaking out.

 

It's all very well arguing passionately on Internet forums, but really, we need more Jon Snows, and even that might not be enough. We need our Prime Ministers, current or prospective to take a stand - and certainly not appear in articles announcing that they are proud Zionists.

 

It's a fcking weird world when you get the most sense from Russell Brand and George Galloway - both spot on in their videos.

[Bath Saint]

Not sure if any of you have seen this. Excellent, if a little depressing.

[video=youtube;-evIyrrjTTY]

[Batman]

The truth is that Israel only really gets to be what it is by the leave of the UK/US veto power in the UN Security Council. The rest of the world has drafted resolution upon resolution, all waiting to be acted on - but entirely toothless if the West's permanent members block the action.

 

So why aren't civilised nations like the US and UK weighing in with something approaching condemnation? Lots of reasons. You're not allowed to mention it, but Israel has hugely powerful lobbying interests in the UK. According to its own website, 80% of the Conservative party MPs belong to Conservative Friends for Israel. A mate of mine was involved with Labour Friends for Palestine. He told me that Labour Friends of Israel ploughed £10million into getting preferred candidates selected; it has always been seen as a fast track for promotion - Blair was a member.

 

Overseas, you have organisations like the Anti-Defamation League and AIPAC exerting a lot of influence. It certainly doesn't help that so many Americans are religious to the point of literalism; end timers in particular think Israel has to be kept about for prophesy to manifest itself. Closer to home, we saw the recent furore over Anelka and the quenelle, something nobody gave a crap about until a bunch of people told us it was important and told us to give a crap about it.

 

Really though, it's collective guilt over past failure to act in the past that prevents us from being critical of Israel in the present. It's a ridiculous position to have in 2014; most of the perpetrators of the crimes against the European Jewish diaspora are either dead or in prison. Israel is a nuclear-armed state with a modern defence force, while the Palestinians are hemmed into increasingly shrinking and uninhabitable ghettos. Left to continue, it'll be an effective cleansing of the Palestinians from Israeli soil. They haven't had as much time to get their diaspora going, so within a few generations, they really could disappear as a race. Traces will remain, but all sense of nationhood will be gone, and we'd have let it happen, either because we felt guilty or didn't want the shít one can attract when speaking out.

 

It's all very well arguing passionately on Internet forums, but really, we need more Jon Snows, and even that might not be enough. We need our Prime Ministers, current or prospective to take a stand - and certainly not appear in articles announcing that they are proud Zionists.

 

It's a fcking weird world when you get the most sense from Russell Brand and George Galloway - both spot on in their videos.

 

I thought the general consensus was to stay out of everyone else's business

[hypochondriac]

Not sure if any of you have seen this. Excellent, if a little depressing.

[video=youtube;-evIyrrjTTY]

 

Good to see the British were never killed

[pap]

I thought the general consensus was to stay out of everyone else's business

 

The consensus is international law. It isn't always applied, and often isn't in Israel's case.

[Viking Warrior]

I feel the Israelis are being indiscriminate in what they are doin . Too many innocent palastinians are being killed

 

The Israeli hawks are as bad as Hamas with this indiscriminate killing of innocents

I have not forgotten what the Israelis did to my dad's mates when he and his mates were sent to protect the Israelis back in 1946/47

I'm not being antisemetic just do not like some of the Israeli leaders who were members of with the Irgun or the Haganah. The current leaders have their roots in those former paramilitary groups

 

It's not because they are Jewish, .its all about killing innocent people and it about time the palastinians had a land they called their own

Sadly there s no simple resolution to this sad state if affairs . My view is it it's anti Israeli not anti semitism

Interesting discuss re alexi style and that Emma woman

Edited 1 August, 2014 by Viking Warrior

[Viking Warrior]

Good to see the British were never killed

 

They were but not in that you tube clip

Would you like me to post some pictures of my dad and his mates burying their dead colleagues in Ramallah

The Haganah Irgun killed lots if innocents and British troops . When they went as peace keepers

[View From The Top]

The consensus is international law. It isn't always applied, and often isn't in Israel's case.

 

They ignore it anyway as the Jewish lobby in the States is just far too powerful thus giving Israel free reign and the septics still cannot workout why they are hated in the Arab world.

[Saint in Paradise]

To me it looks like Israel has some very, very, very damaging info about the U.S. that would

literally destroy the U.S. if the U.S. doesn't do what Israel tells it to do. The U.S. appears to be

sh*t scared of Israel just like a mouse is scared by a large cat. Israel have even attacked and

killed U.S. servicemen in International waters and the U.S. refused to protect that U.S. ship even

though they could have done.

Edited 1 August, 2014 by Saint in Paradise

[Bath Saint]

Are you Pap's best mate? That's conspiracy theory gone mad. "Literally destroy the US"? Literally?

 

To me it looks like Israel has some very, very, very damaging info about the U.S. that would

literally destroy the U.S. if the U.S. doesn't do what Israel tells it to do. The U.S. appears to be

sh*t scared of Israel just like a mouse is scared by a large cat. Israel have even attacked and

killed U.S. servicemen in International waters and the U.S. refused to protect that U.S. ship even

though they could have done.

[hypochondriac]

They were but not in that you tube clip

Would you like me to post some pictures of my dad and his mates burying their dead colleagues in Ramallah

The Haganah Irgun killed lots if innocents and British troops . When they went as peace keepers

 

Jesus it was a lighthearted comment about the video. Way to go buzz killington.

[pap]

They ignore it anyway as the Jewish lobby in the States is just far too powerful thus giving Israel free reign and the septics still cannot workout why they are hated in the Arab world.

 

The pro-Israel lobby is one of the biggest reasons that criticism is so muted, and it holds a disproportionate amount of power.

 

I've always had a wider view of the situation, the grandad being where he's from and all. He remembers Israel's formation and the reaction around the Arab world; wasn't good. I think that at one time, the Israelis could justifiably say that they were surrounded by real threats on all sides, especially before the Sinai accords. This, along with lingering guilt over WW2, is probably why Israel enjoyed the popular support in the 60s and 70s that Galloway alludes to in his video.

 

The situation is genuinely different now; both in terms of Israel's security and the way it is perceived in the West. I'm sure that Israel still retains the support of fundamentalist Christians and Islamophobic knuckle-draggers, but many sensible people (source; my assessment of own social media feeds) are now starting to see what a one-sided contest it all is. Debate has now advanced to the point where one can highlight the plight of the Palestinians without being labelled an anti-semite, or at least not for that charge to stick.

 

I wouldn't underestimate the power of the pro-Israel lobby in this country either. Much of Zionism was developed and planned in London, the Friends of Israel groups still wield a lot of power and the media is only too happy to cultivate stories of anti-semitism to keep it on the agenda, as the furore over Anelka illustrated. If any other country apart from Israel were prosecuting these outrages, there would rightly be institutional uproar. The silence is deafening.

[pap]

Are you Pap's best mate? That's conspiracy theory gone mad. "Literally destroy the US"? Literally?

 

I'm not a fan of the word literally

 

SiP's got the right of it on the deaths of US Servicemen though. Source: the surviving US servicemen.

 

 

During that particular attack, Israel/US were looking to destroy a US vessel and blame it on Egypt.

[Bath Saint]

Hmm, I have read a bit around that incident. It would seem, based on the evidence, to have been a genuine mistake by the Israelis, who mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian, Hunt Class destroyer. And I'm not sure how highlighting this incident supports SiP's contention that Israel have something 'on' the US

[pap]

Hmm, I have read a bit around that incident. It would seem, based on the evidence, to have been a genuine mistake by the Israelis, who mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian, Hunt Class destroyer. And I'm not sure how highlighting this incident supports SiP's contention that Israel have something 'on' the US

 

Watch the video, Bath - it's very good. The surviving crewmen seemed pretty convinced it was pre-meditated and intentional. It might even be an example of something that Israel "has" over the US, although it's something of a nuclear option.

 

I'm sure intelligence and blackmail plays a part in many international relations, but I'll go with what I said before. There are strong lobbying interests in both the US and UK that prevent effective action on the Israel situation.

 

For the record, I think the solution lies in actually implementing international law.

[Viking Warrior]

Hypo , appreciate it was meant to be lighthearted but to me something's are are a little raw

[aintforever]

To me it looks like Israel has some very, very, very damaging info about the U.S. that would

literally destroy the U.S. if the U.S. doesn't do what Israel tells it to do. The U.S. appears to be

sh*t scared of Israel just like a mouse is scared by a large cat. Israel have even attacked and

killed U.S. servicemen in International waters and the U.S. refused to protect that U.S. ship even

though they could have done.

 

I think it's probably more a case of a powerful Jewish lobby in the US. I agree it does appear ****ed up that a country like that can appear to have such a hold over the World's superpower.

 

I used to work for a Jewish owned company in London and I was amazed at how fiercely protective they were of Israel. All said they would happily go back and fight a war on it's behalf without a moment's thought. The company was also totally dedicated to furthering the Jewish cause and we won contracts we shouldn't have got near because of the jewish links. I'm not saying it's typical but it was eye opening. You can't blame a group of people who have traditionally been persecuted for having such a robust protection mechanism.

 

Israel wont lose, everything happening in Gaza would have been planned and it totally under their control IMO. The Israelis have the Palestinians like a dog in a cage. The dog would be perfectly safe out the cage but they need it there so every now and then they provoke it to bite to prove how dangerous it is. The thing the Israelis are most scared of most is a well run democratic Palestine, every few years they have to destroy it to stop that happening.

Edited 2 August, 2014 by aintforever

[JackFrost]

Another Israeli air strike on a UN-run school

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28628682

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

It is amazing we have sanctions against Russia and not Israel, it is barbaric what they are doing.

 

And you feel that Hamas is inherently less barbaric? Is it not true that this organisation is dedicated to the utter destruction of the Israeli state without compromise?

 

The obvious financial and military might of Israel, when compared to the comparative poverty and feebleness of the Palestinians, reads like a old school Hollywood 'the little guy fights back' script and our sympathies naturally tend towards underdog - but only perhaps if you don't consider the full complexity of the underlying situation deeply enough. 'Might' may not always be 'Right' of course, but that is not to say that the more powerful side in any conflict must invariably be wrong either.

 

Okay the Israeli state may not be the perfect model of a tolerant liberal democracy some on here seem to expect it to be, but please remember Israel has been under attack from it's very inception almost and any state attempting to survive in that type of unremittingly hostile environment is bound to develop in a militaristic manner to some degree. Indeed, were Israel not prepared to defend itself then this state would surely have been destroyed long ago. For all its failings I say Israel remains the closest example the region has to a truly modern progressive state.

 

The loss of life we are seeing in and around the Gaza Strip (on all sides) is appalling, but while the Middle East continues its long await for all parties to reach a satisfactory political settlement to this seemingly intractable problem Israel will continue to defend its people. That is afterall the first purpose of any state is it not?

 

The 'brutal' truth is that no one here has a monopoly ownership of being in the 'right' and only the dead have seen the end of war.

[pap]

And you feel that Hamas is inherently less barbaric? Is it not true that this organisation is dedicated to the utter destruction of the Israeli state without compromise?

 

What about all the Palestinians that don't belong to Hamas? This comment merely illustrates how well the Palestinians = Hamas = Terrorists message is burrowing its way into the minds of the unwary.

 

The obvious financial and military might of Israel, when compared to the comparative poverty and feebleness of the Palestinians, reads like a old school Hollywood 'the little guy fights back' script and our sympathies naturally tend towards underdog - but only perhaps if you don't consider the full complexity of the underlying situation deeply enough. 'Might' may not always be 'Right' of course, but that is not to say that the more powerful side in any conflict must invariably be wrong either.

 

Okay the Israeli state may not be the perfect model of a tolerant liberal democracy some on here seem to expect it to be, but please remember Israel has been under attack from it's very inception almost and any state attempting to survive in that type of unremittingly hostile environment is bound to develop in a militaristic manner to some degree. Indeed, were Israel not prepared to defend itself then this state would surely have been destroyed long ago. For all its failings I say Israel remains the closest example the region has to a truly modern progressive state.

 

Israel is a fundamentalist rogue state which promotes anxiety, operates on extremes and the certainty that it is morally right. It is in violation of several UN resolutions; the only reason it has been able to avoid them is because transatlantic apologists have always vetoed any actions against their international law breaking.

 

Or perhaps more succinctly:-

 

 

The loss of life we are seeing in and around the Gaza Strip (on all sides) is appalling, but while the Middle East continues its long await for all parties to reach a satisfactory political settlement to this seemingly intractable problem Israel will continue to defend its people. That is afterall the first purpose of any state is it not?

 

The 'brutal' truth is that no one here has a monopoly ownership of being in the 'right' and only the dead have seen the end of war.

 

Perhaps not a monopoly, but pretty one-sided - and I think there are better uses for your analytical talents than this verbose, fruitless attempt at equalisation. Would you have been as non-committally "two sides to every story" over the Warsaw ghetto or apartheid in South Africa, both comparable (in their own way) to the way Palestinians are presently treated?