Is It Worth Even Being Mildly Successful?

[washsaint]

This summer has made it even more obvious that outside of 4 or 5 clubs the Prem looks like always being a closed shop.

 

We have 1 decent season and the vultures descend and players heads get turned/tapped up, whatever. Realistically there is no chance any club like Saints can then hold on to these players and they will leave.

 

As we are finding, we can have all the money in the bank we want but we then have to try and attract players when suddenly we don't seem such an attractive option and they may be hesitant to come here because some of our 'stars' are being sold/forcing a move.

 

So now some of our new crop of youngsters might get a chance to shine. But if Reed, Targett, Chambers and McQueen do well (as an example) we all know the vultures will descend and take them off of our hands - and there is, realistically, nothing Saints can do about it except get top dollar.

 

It is all very depressing and means that the League really is not a competitive League and that Saints (or any other similar club) will always struggle to break into the top 6 (let alone top 4) because of the disparity in resources.

 

Really don't know what the answer is - we could offer mega wages but then we would end up down the Leeds/Portsmouth/QPR route as this is not sustainable for a club our size.

 

It comes to something when a player like Caulker is demanding, allegedly, 80K per week!

[DrZuess1979 the 2nd]

No

Ala athletico madrid

And even poopy (spits in a bucket )

The big over weight voltures will soon circle, and players will admit their heads were always at "insert club name here" blah blah bloody blah

[buctootim]

People have become shallow arse wipes obsessed with 'cool' brands and money as far as I can tell. Its always existed of course but we seem to be heading towards just having having three or four acceptable brands for cars / football clubs / phones etc with everything elese being branded second rate not worthy of support.

[angelman]

Short answer is no, and all that you can hope for is to be entertained. I have been saying for a long time now that I have a battle between my love of Saints and my dislike of the PL. At present my love of Saints wins out, but the way that our players have left or have made comments about leaving, has made me look at things and ask whether it really is worth bothering with. I really don't care about having a large bank balance while helping other clubs above us improve their squads. Having said that, that is I guess the primary purpose of the academy.

 

In it's current form is the PL really sustainable? If three quarters of clubs have no chance of winning it, then what really is the point of trying to. The FFP rules keep lesser clubs in their place, so no Jack Walker will ever be able to win the PL again, and clubs like us have no chance of offering wages to rival those from the big boys. I wonder whether eventually a lot more people will question the whole thing. Is it necessary to have the best players to have the best competition? Just looking at the PL and the Championship, I would have to say no because as a competition, the Championship is much better than the PL. Anyone can win it. But then again, the PL has probably right royally screwed that as well, what with the huge parachute payments. But as it is with the PL, the small clubs are getting richer, but the big clubs are getting much much richer than those outside the top few spots. There is little chance to compete now, and all that is going to happen is that the gap is going to widen. As I have said elsewhere, there is only one way of stopping this, and this will NEVER happen, and that is to introduce a wage cap that all clubs can afford. Let's face it, football players don't need to be paid £300k a week, let alone £80k a week. I heard a while back about people thinking that it won't be too far away before there are £1m a week wages - it was a little tongue in cheek but not totally.

 

Anyway, it's not about the PL. The PL is just a stepping stone for entrance into CL.

[andoru]

No, it's not. When even clubs like Borussia Dortmund (Champions League finalists) and Atletico Madrid (La Liga winners AND Champions League finalists) can lose their best players, what hope do the likes of Saints have? I've been arguing this since I was a kid back in the 90s. I could see what was happening, and it happened.

[david in sweden]

it's obvious that club owners whose ego is even bigger than their bank balance spend huge amounts on transfer fees and as much on salaries.(£25 m. for Lallana PLUS 5 yrs x 100K week is another £25 m.)

......but in business you normally look for a return of investment and I doubt if even winning CL would recoup the long term cost of long contract salaries for some of these clubs......

 

looking at the enormous outlay at Spuds last summer (£85 m. in for Bale and £106 m. out for 7 new players) most of whom did little to improve that side will mean that it looks like MP will only get petty cash to buy new players whilst Daniel Levy will expect him to " make the best " out of the squad he has already....good luck, I say . He'll need it.

 

The price of " being a big club " actually means being a big spender. Saints have as good a chance as any if we have good players / from the Academy) and can manage to keep them.

 

Perhaps it's the difference between those young players who want to play every week, or get £100K week for sitting on the subs. bench.

[Cabrone]

I don't like the PL, it's a self enforcing system which enables the top 4 to stay at the top and with those parachute payments also enables the rest of the prem clubs to stay in the prem (I'd ditch the parachute payments, they are clearly unfair to the champ clubs but if they have to stay then why aren't they paid to clubs as they come up?).

 

Every year it just gets harder and harder to break into the top cartel as they coin in champs league cash and the league gets more and more polarised.

 

That said, Saints do have an opportunity at the moment to progress if they spend wisely. I think they have gotten over the odds for the players sold and if they can replace with equivalents for less money (which I think they have so far) then there should be a bit extra money left to strengthen.

 

We can't stop the top 4 from coming in like vultures but we can screw them for as much money as possible, buy with cool heads and slowly reduce the difference between us and them.

[doddisalegend]

It just means we have to accept that we are a stepping stone club. For a club like saints our best bet seems to be unearth good players in the lower leagues or abroad who are cheaper and want to play in the PL and accept that they will go after a couple of seasons if they turn out to be really good. We also need to keep on bringing through the academy boys and accept that the very best ones won't stay long. Buy cheap sell high keeps the club coffers in good order. There will always be decent players who want to come here as long as we are in the PL. Not the top class ones some people fantasied about us getting but still good players.

[CB Fry]

Last season there were far too many dinlows valuing the false glory of finishing seventh and looking down on winning an actual trophy, having a day at Wembley with their friends and celebrating success.

 

It was a well worn debate but suffice to say those that said finishing that one place higher in the league would better enable us to "build" for the following season have not quite seen things play out as expected.

 

Let's try and actually do well in the cups this season, hey?

[Whitey Grandad]

Short answer is no, and all that you can hope for is to be entertained. I have been saying for a long time now that I have a battle between my love of Saints and my dislike of the PL. At present my love of Saints wins out, but the way that our players have left or have made comments about leaving, has made me look at things and ask whether it really is worth bothering with. I really don't care about having a large bank balance while helping other clubs above us improve their squads. Having said that, that is I guess the primary purpose of the academy.

 

In it's current form is the PL really sustainable? If three quarters of clubs have no chance of winning it, then what really is the point of trying to. The FFP rules keep lesser clubs in their place, so no Jack Walker will ever be able to win the PL again, and clubs like us have no chance of offering wages to rival those from the big boys. I wonder whether eventually a lot more people will question the whole thing. Is it necessary to have the best players to have the best competition? Just looking at the PL and the Championship, I would have to say no because as a competition, the Championship is much better than the PL. Anyone can win it. But then again, the PL has probably right royally screwed that as well, what with the huge parachute payments. But as it is with the PL, the small clubs are getting richer, but the big clubs are getting much much richer than those outside the top few spots. There is little chance to compete now, and all that is going to happen is that the gap is going to widen. As I have said elsewhere, there is only one way of stopping this, and this will NEVER happen, and that is to introduce a wage cap that all clubs can afford. Let's face it, football players don't need to be paid £300k a week, let alone £80k a week. I heard a while back about people thinking that it won't be too far away before there are £1m a week wages - it was a little tongue in cheek but not totally.

 

Anyway, it's not about the PL. The PL is just a stepping stone for entrance into CL.

 

This sums it all up for me. The PL is designed to make money for television and the fans are just makeweights.

[ToreSF]

Top post.

[Turkish]

The Cortese junkies were absolutely indignant that our unstoppable march up the table would ultimately result in us taking our rightful place in the champions league in our 50,000 capacity stadium with or team full of academy graduates all ignoring Man United and £100k a week because they loved the chairman. It hasn't quite panned out like that as those of us who had a realistic view said it wouldn't. The league cup was beneath us as we saved our players for the push for 7th, the FA cup, the Europa cup, well who needs it, we're better than that. So as the best players do what some of us always said they would and go and play for the top clubs earning the top money and we need to replace them, the cortese junkies are currently experiencing something similar to the scenario to the one in Trainspotting where Renton was locked in his room trying to get off the smack. They'll get over it, but its a long and difficult road.

[Bucks Saint]

In answer to the question, yes, assuming thats as well as we can do. Enjoy the entertainment, savour the performances and the wins and be thankful you dont follow a team that is downtrodden, awful to watch and skint.

[Saint_Tony]

No. To be honest we are better off fading into mid-table obscurity with the likes of Stoke and Villa, and just be happy with where we are. Too many of us bought into Cortese's European dreams, which even he realised weren't going to happen,hence jumping ship when he did. This season we'd be better off having a couple of cup runs similar to Sunderland last season. To think we were all jumping for joy at finishing eighth and having three England internationals. Looking back just a couple of months later, it was one of the worst things to ever happen to the club.

[OldNick]

No, it's not. When even clubs like Borussia Dortmund (Champions League finalists) and Atletico Madrid (La Liga winners AND Champions League finalists) can lose their best players, what hope do the likes of Saints have? I've been arguing this since I was a kid back in the 90s. I could see what was happening, and it happened.

It really started when the clubs stopped sharing the gate money, in the early 80s(?)

When the big clubs threatened to break away(I think it was Man U , Liverpool and Arsenal) and make some kind of European super league if they didn't get their way. I felt at the time let them do so, they would have soon come back cap in hand. Now the CL is so important the PL is as some say just the means to qualify.

[sfc1976]

I think it's impossible to 'build' for success and progress in anything like a sustainable way. All that happens is that you lose all your players along the way. The only way to break in is the sort of spontaneous and instantaneous overnight wealth from oil money like Citeh.

[alpine_saint]

This summer has made it even more obvious that outside of 4 or 5 clubs the Prem looks like always being a closed shop.

 

We have 1 decent season and the vultures descend and players heads get turned/tapped up, whatever. Realistically there is no chance any club like Saints can then hold on to these players and they will leave.

 

As we are finding, we can have all the money in the bank we want but we then have to try and attract players when suddenly we don't seem such an attractive option and they may be hesitant to come here because some of our 'stars' are being sold/forcing a move.

 

So now some of our new crop of youngsters might get a chance to shine. But if Reed, Targett, Chambers and McQueen do well (as an example) we all know the vultures will descend and take them off of our hands - and there is, realistically, nothing Saints can do about it except get top dollar.

 

It is all very depressing and means that the League really is not a competitive League and that Saints (or any other similar club) will always struggle to break into the top 6 (let alone top 4) because of the disparity in resources.

 

Really don't know what the answer is - we could offer mega wages but then we would end up down the Leeds/Portsmouth/QPR route as this is not sustainable for a club our size.

 

It comes to something when a player like Caulker is demanding, allegedly, 80K per week!

 

*puts hand up*

 

I know the answer.

 

Let that clique of 5 teams f**k off and join a Euro League. It wont stop the exodus, but it will allow us to be competitive against the remaining teams with what we have left.

 

It might even allow the England team to improve, because English players will get playing time; the foreigners will all be gone.

[MarkSFC]

The purpose of a sport and a structures competition SHOULD be about performance levels, improvement and determining a pecking order based on who won more. Science, training, coaching, psychology, nutrition etc etc are the factors that should be most important. This list of determining factors in many sports but specifically football and at the top, The Premier League and the Champions League is money. This determines everything, and the irony is that the control of this money in terms of quantity and distribution comes from an industry which is not even a sporting one; they merely use sport ( as so many organisations do) to make their own money and to promote their own brand. What makes the PL so strong is not the sport, the competitiveness, it's the sycophantic gullibility of the masses, that without the huge tv deals and coverage, the sport isn't as good. I don't have the research available but I don't that the correlation between skill level and salary places football very high across all sports ( although this maybe hard to accurately determine, due to the widely high income) but the point is that are footballers paid too little, about right, or too much for the amount of work rate they put in and the skill level they achieve in comparison to other sports. And this is where it's all gone wrong for football and sport. Yes footballers work hard, for a couple of hours a day, but how many at the top are still passionate about the sport, about improving, about winning something. Seeing a Southampton or a Swansea or a Newcastle or even a Portsmouth win the PL would be far far more pleasing than any of obvious group. Whilst finance dictates this outcome exponentially then football is a dying sport and a growth tv show.

Saints, and Saints fans, to answer more directly the OPs question, and as others have stated, need to accept that we are a club that is currently at least, on the right side of the line and the true essence of sport is string in our club. This means that within the money-ridden tv show that they play their sport they will almost certainly always struggle to get top four let alone win the PL. I'm old enough to remember the late seventies and early eighties when the playing field was more even and when the dream was possible. Look at us, albeit no silverware, we were a top team for a few years, Derby, Forest, Villa, Norwich, and finally Blackburn. Clubs of a very similar size who with good management and decent coaches realised the dream. Ok Blackburn had a financial advantage more so than any other but even if they had an owner (or us) who had billions, would we get the players. Sadly not, as the PR of the PL has convinced the masses that if a player is any good he must go to a certain group of clubs. Not because they will get better coaching, better facilities. No, if the best players all migrate to a small select group that happen to be in the largest conurbations of the country (and Europe) then the TV show will get more viewers more often and get more website hits and therefore sell more advertising and subscriptions which will then determine the size of the next tv deal and the perpetual cycle continues.as a breed, our thirst for information, technological contact with the world has exploded beyond belief and out of control. This forum of course is one tiny example. But this need for info, to know every little detail of everything going on with those who we care most about is fuelling this money-driven tv product called football. Yes it's worth being mildly successful for Saints because the reality is the business needs money to function. How it functions and what it's philosophy regarding sport in its truest sense is what will ultimately determine my level of involvement on a practical level , although obviously the emotional attachment is their for life, and currently we should be proud of our club and pray it does carry on doing what it is, even if the environment forces and dupes individuals to move elsewhere. Currently we are very successful at what sport for me is about - making people better. When the money disappears, who will win out?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CB Fry]

*puts hand up*

 

I know the answer.

 

Let that clique of 5 teams f**k of and join a Euro League. It wont stop the exodus, but it will allow us to be competitive against the remaining teams with what we have left.

 

It might even allow the England team to improve, because English players will get playing time; the foreigners will all be gone.

 

Why do you want the England team to improve?

[kpturner]

Given the alternative is to be completely unsuccessful I think the answer has to be "yes" doesn't it? Then, if your best players get poached, do it all over again. Somebody mentioned Athletico Madrid as an example of a team who would have been better off being unsuccessful. You have to be kidding me? Do you really think their fans now regret winning the league title? If you are only "mildly successful" then your best players are still going to leave for better opportunities, so you are in the same boat but starting from a worse position.

[Mallagroth]

I think it's impossible to 'build' for success and progress in anything like a sustainable way. All that happens is that you lose all your players along the way. The only way to break in is the sort of spontaneous and instantaneous overnight wealth from oil money like Citeh.

 

This is also now almost impossible with FFP.

[alpine_saint]

Why do you want the England team to improve?

 

I have no problem supporting an England set-up and squad if it is brought together, organised, managed and operates with a phillosophy based on playing the best players available (no clique) to achieve the best results possible with no commerical agenda.

[OldNick]

Why do you want the England team to improve?

National pride, I would love for the England team to improve.

[alpine_saint]

National pride, I would love for the England team to improve.

 

Yep. But I want all the bullsh*t cleared out. Sorry if it is naiive or old-fashioned, but other nations, like the Germans, manage it.

[CB Fry]

I have no problem supporting an England set-up and squad if it is brought together, organised, managed and operates with a phillosophy based on playing the best players available (no clique) to achieve the best results possible with no commerical agenda.

But, of course.

 

I wonder if that if this little utopia in your head will ever be delivered to your satisfaction.

 

Or will we remain in your constant loop of "I hate England I hope they lose//I hate England because they've lost" circle of death?

 

Let's see, shall we.

[OldNick]

Given the alternative is to be completely unsuccessful I think the answer has to be "yes" doesn't it? Then, if your best players get poached, do it all over again. Somebody mentioned Athletico Madrid as an example of a team who would have been better off being unsuccessful. You have to be kidding me? Do you really think their fans now regret winning the league title? If you are only "mildly successful" then your best players are still going to leave for better opportunities, so you are in the same boat but starting from a worse position.

If we could win the PL just once Im sure we all would die happy. Pompey won the FA cup and killed the club to a degree, I doubt more than a handful would give it all back for a life of mediocrity they had for the previous 40 years

[CB Fry]

National pride, I would love for the England team to improve.

I wasn't asking everyone.

[CB Fry]

National pride, I would love for the England team to improve.

I wasn't asking everyone. I was asking the man who said he "so wanted us to go out in the group stages" and then was absolutely furious when he got his wish. Oh, and he's "always been anti-England", always.

[scotty]

The purpose of a sport and a structures competition SHOULD be about performance levels, improvement and determining a pecking order based on who won more. Science, training, coaching, psychology, nutrition etc etc are the factors that should be most important. This list of determining factors in many sports but specifically football and at the top, The Premier League and the Champions League is money. This determines everything, and the irony is that the control of this money in terms of quantity and distribution comes from an industry which is not even a sporting one; they merely use sport ( as so many organisations do) to make their own money and to promote their own brand. What makes the PL so strong is not the sport, the competitiveness, it's the sycophantic gullibility of the masses, that without the huge tv deals and coverage, the sport isn't as good. I don't have the research available but I don't that the correlation between skill level and salary places football very high across all sports ( although this maybe hard to accurately determine, due to the widely high income) but the point is that are footballers paid too little, about right, or too much for the amount of work rate they put in and the skill level they achieve in comparison to other sports. And this is where it's all gone wrong for football and sport. Yes footballers work hard, for a couple of hours a day, but how many at the top are still passionate about the sport, about improving, about winning something. Seeing a Southampton or a Swansea or a Newcastle or even a Portsmouth win the PL would be far far more pleasing than any of obvious group. Whilst finance dictates this outcome exponentially then football is a dying sport and a growth tv show.

Saints, and Saints fans, to answer more directly the OPs question, and as others have stated, need to accept that we are a club that is currently at least, on the right side of the line and the true essence of sport is string in our club. This means that within the money-ridden tv show that they play their sport they will almost certainly always struggle to get top four let alone win the PL. I'm old enough to remember the late seventies and early eighties when the playing field was more even and when the dream was possible. Look at us, albeit no silverware, we were a top team for a few years, Derby, Forest, Villa, Norwich, and finally Blackburn. Clubs of a very similar size who with good management and decent coaches realised the dream. Ok Blackburn had a financial advantage more so than any other but even if they had an owner (or us) who had billions, would we get the players. Sadly not, as the PR of the PL has convinced the masses that if a player is any good he must go to a certain group of clubs. Not because they will get better coaching, better facilities. No, if the best players all migrate to a small select group that happen to be in the largest conurbations of the country (and Europe) then the TV show will get more viewers more often and get more website hits and therefore sell more advertising and subscriptions which will then determine the size of the next tv deal and the perpetual cycle continues.as a breed, our thirst for information, technological contact with the world has exploded beyond belief and out of control. This forum of course is one tiny example. But this need for info, to know every little detail of everything going on with those who we care most about is fuelling this money-driven tv product called football. Yes it's worth being mildly successful for Saints because the reality is the business needs money to function. How it functions and what it's philosophy regarding sport in its truest sense is what will ultimately determine my level of involvement on a practical level , although obviously the emotional attachment is their for life, and currently we should be proud of our club and pray it does carry on doing what it is, even if the environment forces and dupes individuals to move elsewhere. Currently we are very successful at what sport for me is about - making people better. When the money disappears, who will win out?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Jesus christ, how long did that take to type out on an iphone???

[angelman]

No. To be honest we are better off fading into mid-table obscurity with the likes of Stoke and Villa, and just be happy with where we are. Too many of us bought into Cortese's European dreams, which even he realised weren't going to happen,hence jumping ship when he did. This season we'd be better off having a couple of cup runs similar to Sunderland last season. To think we were all jumping for joy at finishing eighth and having three England internationals. Looking back just a couple of months later, it was one of the worst things to ever happen to the club.

 

I am not sure that many bought into Cortese's dreams. We did like the sound of it when we were riding high in 3rd place, but we all knew it was pie in the sky though, especially as we had yet to play most of the big boys, even though we had won at Anfield and got a draw at Old Trafford. Fans are the ones who are supposed to have dreams and unrealistic expectations, not chairmen and players (not that I buy into them being sold a dream being the reason they came). If any are like me, I am happy to admit that my love of Saints clouded my thinking and that I showed a certain amount of naivety that the group and manager would stick together as I really didn't think that it was a great step up to possibly achieving something. There were a couple of key areas that could be strengthened that would have hopefully brought a lot more reward for the amount of possession that we had during a lot of games (oh for having splashed out £12.9m on Osvaldo - what might have been!!). Looking at the results last season, I can quite easily see us getting 18+ more points than we did.

 

But what I didn't really focus on were the wages, except possibly for the amount that Osvaldo and Ramirez were supposedly on. The group looked happy and close knit. There was hope that little old Southampton might do something different. Why do you think so many supporters of other teams (from all around the world) wanted us to do well? It's certainly not because of any affinity towards the club - in part our style of football was attractive to watch (if it ever got televised) but it was that during the early part of the season we were mixing it up with the big boys and breaking the boring predictability of the PL. It is predictable, and I will bet anyone now that the top 7 next year and the same top 7 as this year. The only "interesting" thing is to see who misses out from a top 4 spot and whether Everton or Spurs can break into the top 4 and displace a second team who thinks it is their right to be there. Everyone knows it is predictable, yet so few question it. Certainly none of the press question the failings of the competition. They occasionally talk about how FFP is holding teams back - Martin Samuel had a good piece in the DM yesterday http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2699215/MARTIN-SAMUEL-If-Financial-Fair-Play-gift-club-owners-buy-Aston-Villa.html?offset=0&max=100&reply=59591769#comment-59591769 - but that is always Platini's baby and never that the PL voted it in, although Cortese is known to have been anti it. http://www.espnfc.com/story/1330784/premier-league-clubs-vote-in-favour-of-ffp-plans. And how are FFP rules supposed to help supporters? With rules enforcing you to live within your means (not a bad thing but it does exacerbate the uncompetitiveness), then the pressure to increase ticket prices is always going to be there. Every £1 on the ticket price at SMS equates to about £600k of revenue over a 19 game home season.

 

While I am having a whinge....and this is not supposed to be sour grapes, but just looking at things (hopefully) realistically.

 

I look at the media build up to the forthcoming season and you would think that there are only 6 teams in the league. Currently it is a tie between the media love in with Liverpool and Man United. It goes on and on and on and on. Sure they have the most supporters, but the PL wouldn't exist without all of the rest. Some might think that that would be a good idea, but would turning out like the SPL and playing each other 4 times a year really be a good idea? The UK press give more coverage to Barca/Real than they do Crystal Palace/Leicester, so maybe it would be a good idea for the CL to turn into a proper European League, although I can't imagine how promotion relegation would happen - it probably wouldn't. The PL is there for a few teams, and it really favours even fewer. There is a paltry amount handed out to the rest of football when the amount of money there is could go to help grass roots a lot more. With this I imagine Southampton FC are as complicit as everyone else. One thing I would do is introduce a 10-15% surcharge to be added to any overseas signing so that money could be given to grass roots development. I have no idea what PL teams have spent on overseas players so far or in a typical year - something like £600m sticks in my mind for some reason. 15% of that would be £90m and an awful lot of good that could do.

 

But no, the PL shows nothing but greed and I am a little ambivalent towards SFC's role in that. On the one hand I hate the greed and would prefer not to be part of it, but on the other, you want to be at the top table. SFC vs Arsenal holds a bit more interest than say, SFC vs Aldershot.

[scotty]

This is also now almost impossible with FFP.

 

Not quite sure about that. If the owners are wealthy enough, surely all they have to do is cough up the fines as well (?) Can the club actually be banned from competitions, or somehow prevented from paying whatever they wish in terms of transfer fees/wages in the first place? I thought it was the same "punitive" system the banks had with PPI etc, just a fine which then gets passed on to the customer anyway.

[View From The Top]

Just been sat in the refectory discussing this point with 2 Stoke ST holders. Their view is that if you have a hardworking but "ordinary" group of players plus a good but uncool manager you'll get left alone by the bigger clubs.

 

Show any flair or style then you'll get rap*d.

[alpine_saint]

Yep, anti-England in its current form.

 

And I wasnt furious about England going out. I am furious that the set-up causes England to go out.

 

It may be a utopia what I want, but I dont see a problem with striving for it; anything is better than the current state of affairs.

[Polaroid Saint]

Some very eloquent and quite rightly indignant posts regarding the EPL and what it has done to our sport. I am not trying to counter any of those, but the question was specifically about middling success.

 

It could be argued that it would be much more than a mild success if Saints retained 8th next season (regardless of summer activity). In fact it would be a massive success for any club of our size/recent history.

 

If the ceiling for a club like Saints really is 6th, then, maybe, we'd rather compete for that position with other 'mildly successful' clubs than enter the murky world of becoming a Yo-Yo Club? Even the excitement of a 'winning season' in the Champ'ship soon fades against the frustrations of a season being the whipping boys in the EPL.

 

So, yes. If 'Mildly Successful' means Southampton FC battle between 6th and 17th each season, I think it is worth it.

[Gorgiesaint]

Last season there were far too many dinlows valuing the false glory of finishing seventh and looking down on winning an actual trophy, having a day at Wembley with their friends and celebrating success.

 

It was a well worn debate but suffice to say those that said finishing that one place higher in the league would better enable us to "build" for the following season have not quite seen things play out as expected.

 

Let's try and actually do well in the cups this season, hey?

 

I don't think anyone has seen things play out as they expected. Of course, if you can link to any posts from the first couple of months last season that say that our ambitious Chairman is going to throw his toys out as he's been spending over his means and resign, the manager is going to play the board along in saying he sign a new contract when from March he was looking at other clubs, and that 3 of our key players would have left with 2 more probably going (and 2 of those threatening to strike if they didn't get their move) then please do so because I can't recall anyone predicting that.

 

If they did then fair play to them.

 

Had we been able to keep the group (of players) together for one more season, it would have been interesting to see where we would have finished. This summer would have been about adding quality in certain key area's and getting some depth to the squad. Could it have put us in a position to be another Everton, with a track record of finishing top six?

 

Anyway what's happened has happened so your last comment is probably the way forward - cups.

[Killers Knee]

If this year, our academy can keep the England u17, u18 and u19 teams stocked with our players and we spend this years transfer money in purchasing an entire spine comprised of Dutch u20 & u21 players then we will have something quite impressive in 4 years time to sell at eye-watering prices.

 

We have enough already to avoid relegation, but having a team/system that has the potential to peak every 4 years could be attainable, we just have to become better at retaining our assets, with minimum release clauses, regular contract renewals, avoid known trouble makers (Lovren, Osvaldo), increase wages and make an example of players like Lovren, not to the point to make the PFA hunt us, but enough to put a little fear into other players.

 

It will not deliver sustained success but every 4 years we may just have a crop good enough to challenge the best.

[angelman]

make an example of players like Lovren, not to the point to make the PFA hunt us, but enough to put a little fear into other players.

 

 

I know it is a little off topic, but I do find the PFA's stance interesting. I know that they are the players' union but they seem (and who knows what goes on in the background) only to come out to support the player against the clubs when really they should sometimes be telling their members how to behave.

[DuncanRG]

Of course it's worth it. The Premier League should be far more competitive than it is and the odds are stacked horribly against us, but I want my team to compete as high up the pyramid as possible.

 

It would be a crying shame if this is the pattern every summer, though. It's been a privilege to watch this team grow over five years and I hope that Koeman's team can stick together for a few years as well, even if there are one or two departures or changes in management. That's the biggest worry for me, not that doing well might mean doing less well in future. That's an odd way of looking at things in my view.

[Wrensup]

If this year, our academy can keep the England u17, u18 and u19 teams stocked with our players and we spend this years transfer money in purchasing an entire spine comprised of Dutch u20 & u21 players then we will have something quite impressive in 4 years time to sell at eye-watering prices.

 

We have enough already to avoid relegation, but having a team/system that has the potential to peak every 4 years could be attainable, we just have to become better at retaining our assets, with minimum release clauses, regular contract renewals, avoid known trouble makers (Lovren, Osvaldo), increase wages and make an example of players like Lovren, not to the point to make the PFA hunt us, but enough to put a little fear into other players.

 

It will not deliver sustained success but every 4 years we may just have a crop good enough to challenge the best.

 

And it's as simple as that.

[Minty]

It may be a utopia what I want, but I dont see a problem with striving for it; anything is better than the current state of affairs.

 

Alps, on this and your other points in this thread, I have to say I agree entirely.

 

MarkSFC's post was also spot on.

 

For me mild success is to remain competitive in the Premier League, with the aim of incrementally improving, and to be challenging for cups *every season*. We do this by introducing young players from our Academy, by buying up and coming talent and improving it, not just buying players in, and with a manager who coaches his players, improves them, and who has a wide range of tactical awareness to knit all of that together.

 

IMO, our sudden success last year, coupled with Cortese getting into players heads about what they can expect, have led to this inevitable dip, but we'll actually be better off for it in a year or two as things settle down.

[Minty]

People just need to be grown up and make the best of it. Hopefully football will change one day, but it is what it is. As others said, Dortmund and Atletico can't keep their players. Even Bayern lost Kroos, MU, Spurs, Liverpool and Arsenal will lose players to Madrid and Barca at times.

 

Clubs have to keep growing and reinvesting well. Saints have a big opportunity with the facilities and academy there. Also the fact that most clubs don't stay up long, and don't invest well. It's amazing how much money is utterly wasted. If we don't waste it, we can do well. 2 seasons up, 1 top half finish. Like it or not, our first priority if we want to get anywhere must be to cement the club as a top half club over 5-10 years.

 

People expecting better than that in a shorter time span need to find some patience somewhere. Most can't see beyond a single season (or single match in some cases). Odds are we won't do it, most clubs don't, but it has to be the aim. There will be setback seasons, Everton nearly went down under Moyes, but then mostly had good seasons. I just don't understand why you'd let a group of good players wanting bigger clubs make you give up on your own clubs long term ambitions.

 

Spot on. But this issue of patience has always been at the crux of things, and fact is most people have none in life, let alone football. Our culture and society is increasingly built on short-term expectations, be it company profit, sporting results, politics or a host of other things. As I just posted, I think this current shift might actually be to our long term benefit if we can now establish ourselves in Premier League mid-table and grow slowly from there.

[The9]

The Cortese junkies were absolutely indignant that our unstoppable march up the table would ultimately result in us taking our rightful place in the champions league in our 50,000 capacity stadium with or team full of academy graduates all ignoring Man United and £100k a week because they loved the chairman. It hasn't quite panned out like that as those of us who had a realistic view said it wouldn't. The league cup was beneath us as we saved our players for the push for 7th, the FA cup, the Europa cup, well who needs it, we're better than that. So as the best players do what some of us always said they would and go and play for the top clubs earning the top money and we need to replace them, the cortese junkies are currently experiencing something similar to the scenario to the one in Trainspotting where Renton was locked in his room trying to get off the smack. They'll get over it, but its a long and difficult road.

 

Mostly fair comment, but had we actually qualified for Europa League, do you think that would have placated a few of the departees for another year, giving us the chance to build further, rather than the current struggle to consolidate?

 

I was all in favour of jumping straight to the CL personally, but as soon as we lost to Arsenal and got a few injuries it became obvious we didn't have any depth beyond a very good first team, and that wasn't going to happen.

 

The refusal to attempt to win the FA Cup in the face of all evidence looks stupider by the day.

Edited 22 July, 2014 by The9

[The9]

Spot on. But this issue of patience has always been at the crux of things, and fact is most people have none in life, let alone football. Our culture and society is increasingly built on short-term expectations, be it company profit, sporting results, politics or a host of other things. As I just posted, I think this current shift might actually be to our long term benefit if we can now establish ourselves in Premier League mid-table and grow slowly from there.

 

We will become cool-beard hipster footballsters, revelling in our quirkiness. Against Modern Football, Except When It Benefits Us Like With The Academy Rules.

[Polaroid Saint]

We will become cool-beard hipster footballsters, revelling in our quirkiness. Against Modern Football, Except When It Benefits Us Like With The Academy Rules.

 

I like this.

[stthrobber]

Of course there's a point. If you aim lower, you lose your best players (who aren't as good), to whoever replaces us as the upper mid table teams. Or worse. How is that preferable?

 

Losing top players to top clubs for big money sucks.

 

Is losing best players to average clubs for average money somehow better?

 

People just need to be grown up and make the best of it. Hopefully football will change one day, but it is what it is. As others said, Dortmund and Atletico can't keep their players. Even Bayern lost Kroos, MU, Spurs, Liverpool and Arsenal will lose players to Madrid and Barca at times.

 

Clubs have to keep growing and reinvesting well. Saints have a big opportunity with the facilities and academy there. Also the fact that most clubs don't stay up long, and don't invest well. It's amazing how much money is utterly wasted. If we don't waste it, we can do well. 2 seasons up, 1 top half finish. Like it or not, our first priority if we want to get anywhere must be to cement the club as a top half club over 5-10 years.

 

People expecting better than that in a shorter time span need to find some patience somewhere. Most can't see beyond a single season (or single match in some cases). Odds are we won't do it, most clubs don't, but it has to be the aim. There will be setback seasons, Everton nearly went down under Moyes, but then mostly had good seasons. I just don't understand why you'd let a group of good players wanting bigger clubs make you give up on your own clubs long term ambitions.

 

Good post, but football isn't going to change because the clubs in the top 4 get the big money and the rest of us just make up the numbers. Not only that, but there are not enough clubs like ours, bringing through and developing young British talent to take through to the England squad (and other home countries).

 

The way the PL is set up at the moment means that the status quo for both clubs and the national side will be maintained. The PL was always set up to benefit the top clubs as they get the bulk of the TV money, and of course, that is increased by Champions League qualification.

 

Until our clubs invest more in youth and less on buying in cheaper foreign imports, then nothing will change, but in terms of Saints, we can only aspire to break into the top 7 and qualify for Europe, and there's not much money in the Europa League.

 

How the hell can you demand the likes of Man Utd or Arsenal spread the cash around to make things more fair? You can't, and the FA and PL haven't got the balls to try and change things

[corky morris]

Don't want to repeat what others have written, but the answer is no. Not even the US draft system would help that's why they are using a salary cap.

As soon as Division 1 was called The Premiership & 4 clubs qualified for the CL we were ****ed!

[Minty]

We will become cool-beard hipster footballsters, revelling in our quirkiness. Against Modern Football, Except When It Benefits Us Like With The Academy Rules.

 

Speak for yourself, I'm no hypocrite and don't want any rules to benefit us at the expense of others.

 

And I can't grow a beard, let alone a cool one.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

 

People just need to be grown up and make the best of it. Hopefully football will change one day, but it is what it is. As others said, Dortmund and Atletico can't keep their players. Even Bayern lost Kroos, MU, Spurs, Liverpool and Arsenal will lose players to Madrid and Barca at times.

 

 

Ronaldo & Bale to Real, Cesc, Henry, Song, Mascherano & Suarez to Barca in the last few years.

 

As you and others have said. Being League title winners & Champions League finalists can't keep these clubs at bay. Even if we had won the FA cup (yes, I do wish we had made a bigger push for it, absolutely) the chances are the players off would have gone.

 

It stinks, and it is disheartening, but sadly that is football. I'm concerned we havn't replaced players yet, but I'm sure we will. I don't see us going down. It's not the end of the world.

 

We lost a decent manager, we have (on paper at least) replaced him with a decent manager. The same could be said of the striker & AM positions. They may not work out, but that is a risk that applies to 99% of all transfers/managerial appointments.

 

Yes, I would like some squad strengthening too. But for how awful our squad was last year, we still finished 8th. Even in periods where we had a number of first teamers out injured, we still achieved this. I still don't see any reason to see that we are going to finish 10 places worse than last season.

 

People will be signed, yes it's frustrating that they havn't got more in as yet - but it will come. We may well drop back a couple of places, but this will be a season of ship steadying. I reckon 9-14th will be separated by a few points this season, and we will most likely fall somewhere between there. There'll be a cut off group at the bottom, there are definitely squads below us that are worse than ours.

 

It's disheartening, as I do think we were a few signings away from being able to potentially have a push for top 6 (might not have made it, but given it a go at least). But nevermind, it's done now.

 

Of course it is worth trying to be successful. I still enjoyed last season, even at the start of the season when we were riding high I remember saying "it won't last, so I'm going to make the most of it whilst I can". It was obvious we'd never stay that far up the table for long, but hey, why not enjoy it whilst you are there? I do hope Koeman will attempt to replicate his previous cup wins over here, I'd love to get to Wembley again. If we aren't at least looking or trying to be successful, there is only one way you will go. I'd rather not see a tumbling down the leagues thanks.

[Batman]

lets not make out we are losing world class players

 

not so long ago, lallana, shaw and rickie were going to spend most of the seasons on their respective benches and MP wont last the season.

why are we getting raped for such average quality??

[Polaroid Saint]

Speak for yourself, I'm no hypocrite and don't want any rules to benefit us at the expense of others.

 

And I can't grow a beard, let alone a cool one.

 

It's okay Minty; this year we are going with neat minimal facial hair. Gone are the days of Lallana Under Beards, Cant-be-arsed-Stubble Strikers and Lumberjack-bearded CenterBacks (well, as soon as Jos gets sorted). Still hipster, but clean shaven hipsters!