NHS waste

[OldNick]

I went to my cousins funeral friday. While I was there I was speaking to her husband and he told me. The week before she passed away a stannah type lift was fitted at her house by the NHs. It was used once and last week it was removed and thrown out. Her husband told them to be careful as it was brand new and he was told it was to be dumped!!!

This is madness, as her husband said she didnt die of leprosy. My cousin's sister is going to write to the NHS and complain about this terrible waste of money.

[bridge too far]

The stair lift would have been paid for by Social Services, not the NHS FYI.

 

They can't be used again as the tracks are purpose-built for the house in question. I know this for a FACT as we had one fitted in our house for when my mother visited (paid for by us, not Social Services). We were informed at the time that it would not be possible to sell back to the company (Acorn).

 

They did, however, say that our local Social Services might be interested in taking the chair and its mechanism and organise a new track for whichever house they wanted to fit it into. It wouldn't occur to me to ask for money for it.

 

The companies do not buy them back.

 

PS sorry about your cousin's death BTW

 

HTH

[Johnny Bognor]

The stair lift would have been paid for by Social Services, not the NHS FYI.

 

 

So government / public sector waste is OK, as long as it is not the NHS?

[bridge too far]

So government / public sector waste is OK, as long as it is not the NHS?

 

Look - if you can't be bothered to read what I actually wrote, what point is there in answering?

 

For the hard of hearing - stair lift tracks are a bespoke manufacture because every staircase is different. They cannot therefore be safely resold.

 

What part of that don't you understand?

 

I think it's commendable that every effort was made to help this lady. I imagine they didn't foresee her death.

[Johnny Bognor]

Look - if you can't be bothered to read what I actually wrote, what point is there in answering?

 

For the hard of hearing - stair lift tracks are a bespoke manufacture because every staircase is different. They cannot therefore be safely resold.

 

What part of that don't you understand?

 

I think it's commendable that every effort was made to help this lady. I imagine they didn't foresee her death.

 

But you said the chair could be re-used, and I'm no expert, but I would hedge my bets that the chair and power mechanism is the most expensive part. But no, throw it away as it was paid for by the free money that magically appears in public sector budgets.

[bridge too far]

But you said the chair could be re-used, and I'm no expert, but I would hedge my bets that the chair and power mechanism is the most expensive part. But no, throw it away as it was paid for by the free money that magically appears in public sector budgets.

 

Yes the chair can be re-used but it will still require someone to pay for a bespoke track, wouldn't it.

 

I think you'll find that the track and the fitting of said track (and wiring)account for the greater part of the expenditure.

 

An additional cost would be the decontamination of the chair.

 

I'm not sure what alternative solution could have been offered to Nick's cousin. Expecting her husband to carry her up the stairs? Lord above, if the poor woman's terminally ill, a couple of grand to make her last few days comfortable and dignfied (and that of her husband) is hardly the end of the world, is it?

[Johnny Bognor]

I'm not sure what alternative solution could have been offered to Nick's cousin. Expecting her husband to carry her up the stairs? Lord above, if the poor woman's terminally ill, a couple of grand to make her last few days comfortable and dignfied (and that of her husband) is hardly the end of the world, is it?

 

I am not against the fact that she may have needed a chair and I am not against the installation of a much needed piece of equipment, it is the casual "chuck it" attitude when it could be 'recycled' and used elsewhere by someone else who may be carrying their other half up the stairs.

 

 

Can I buy a reconditioned stairlift?

 

Stannah can offer reconditioned stairlifts for both straight and curved stairs. For straight stairs we can offer reconditioned rails as well, but on curved, as they are tailor made, the rails would be new. Reconditioned stairlifts are of limited availability.

 

What a waste..........

 

Type "stair lifts+reconditioned" into google - there is a whole industry around re-using them, but no just "chuck it away"

Edited 21 December, 2008 by Johnny Bognor

[Barney Trubble]

So it's easier and better to throw it away completely rather than adapt it when another needy person could make use of it?

 

Couldn't you just order another bespoke rail, make a few other reasonably easy changes to suit and you must have saved a few grande? Wow, has engineering in this country fell to a new level that we can't make a new track/rail for the new owner?

 

As for cleaning it, as she didn't have any particularly dangerous disease I would have thought a quick clean with a tin of Jeyes fluid would do the trick;).

 

Or is there some prat with a clipboard, probably earning over 20k a year, going to say that's an health and safety risk

 

You've gotta laugh at what a pitiful sad country we have become. When I was at school people used to be able to use a bit of common sense, these days, it would appear that we have to follow the 'there's a procedure to follow' ethos and common sense is considered too risky to use.

 

Just clean the ****ing thing, get a new bespoke rail and use it again for ****s sake:D

[bridge too far]

Believe me (and I know because this was a question I asked when I bought the system for my mother's use when she visited) they put up all sorts of obstacles if you try to buy a reconditioned one. Because my mother visited rarely, we thought it would be more cost-effective to buy a second-hand one.

 

They told us that it would be more expensive to buy a second-hand chair / motor and a new track than to buy it all new! And they won't guarantee a second-hand chair and motor - this may well colour Social Services' thinking - H & S and all that.

 

And contrary to their quote you show, they tell you that EVERY staircase is unique, even on a development of identical houses. They will NOT provide second-hand tracks.

 

I'm prepared to GIVE our chair / motor to Social Services, but it will cost them more to get Acorn to only install a track and use our chair than it would to buy a new system.

 

If you're going to have a pop at anyone, have a go at the manufacturers for their restrictive practices.

[Seaford Saint]

So it's easier and better to throw it away completely rather than adapt it when another needy person could make use of it?

 

Couldn't you just order another bespoke rail, make a few other reasonably easy changes to suit and you must have saved a few grande? Wow, has engineering in this country fell to a new level that we can't make a new track/rail for the new owner?

 

As for cleaning it, as she didn't have any particularly dangerous disease I would have thought a quick clean with a tin of Jeyes fluid would do the trick;).

 

Or is there some prat with a clipboard, probably earning over 20k a year, going to say that's an health and safety risk

 

You've gotta laugh at what a pitiful sad country we have become. When I was at school people used to be able to use a bit of common sense, these days, it would appear that we have to follow the 'there's a procedure to follow' ethos and common sense is considered too risky to use.

 

Just clean the ****ing thing, get a new bespoke rail and use it again for ****s sake:D

 

 

My mate died of lung cancer last year and he had a Stannah stairlift fitted before he died. Stannah came and took it away afterwards. You can bet your goolies they didn't take it away to chuck out.

[bridge too far]

Ah well - just believe the hype. I've got better things to do than to advise you from my first hand experience.

[hamster]

I am sure that there is definitely no-one in either NHS or Social Services taking back-handers whilst negotiating these contracts. Absolutely definitely not. Never.

[St Landrew]

I honestly think the institutions need a rethink on wastage. I also know first hand of the wastage levels they incur. As an example, I once lived in the same house as a Whitehall department secretary in charge of IT equipment spending within Whitehall. This was in the mid-1990's and she had a laptop with the highest specification I had ever seen, at the time. According to her, every year, whether it was required or not, the office IT hardware in Whitehall was changed completely, and Whitehall IT equipment was always the highest spec, and so was always highest priced. The changeover required immense expenditure for very little gain. Imagine all the data that had to be transferred. All of the existing, perfectly capable hi-spec old equipment was put into a skip, sent off to the yard and smashed in the crusher. This was said to be cheaper than removing the HDDs and sending them to the crusher.

 

Now you can see the point, but it's still a massive unnecessary waste. Just changing the hardware every two years would have brought huge financial benefits, and very few problems. Unfortunately, that wastage mindset was complete through governmental and public institutions and authorities, at the time. There was simply no framework for making the most of what they had. If they tried to run a company like they were, they'd be out of business within a very short time.

[Post-it note]

This picture reminds me of bridge too far.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

I went to my cousins funeral friday. While I was there I was speaking to her husband and he told me. The week before she passed away a stannah type lift was fitted at her house by the NHs. It was used once and last week it was removed and thrown out. Her husband told them to be careful as it was brand new and he was told it was to be dumped!!!

This is madness, as her husband said she didnt die of leprosy. My cousin's sister is going to write to the NHS and complain about this terrible waste of money.

 

I don't understand this?

 

When my ex-wife's Nan was ill, they had a company come round and install a reconditioned stairlift inc. rails, free (I think it was charitable), but dealt with via the NHS (as this was in Scvnthorpe, I assume North Lincs PCT?).

Then when she unfortunately died a few months later, the same company came and took the whole lot back - they said they would reuse it all elsewhere. I assume as a lot of houses in that area are the same size, build and so on that this wouldn't be an issue.

[OldNick]

I don't understand this?

 

When my ex-wife's Nan was ill, they had a company come round and install a reconditioned stairlift inc. rails, free (I think it was charitable), but dealt with via the NHS (as this was in Scvnthorpe, I assume North Lincs PCT?).

Then when she unfortunately died a few months later, the same company came and took the whole lot back - they said they would reuse it all elsewhere. I assume as a lot of houses in that area are the same size, build and so on that this wouldn't be an issue.

My cousin lived in Lordswood in a house that would be 25years old approx with a straight staircase with no turns. The chair was used once to take her downstairs as she went to the hospice. As for cleaning it, as her husband rightly said and with further upset to her memory that 'she didnt die of leprosy'.

I understand BTF and her loyalty to the local government, we both have different perspectives to the situation. I cannot see how the seat and motor could not be utilised even if the straight rail might not fit in with health and safety.

I do hope people who make excuses for this waste do not get on their high horses about Global warming and the carbon footprints we all are leaving behind.

Forget not this waste is costing us all including the very poor

[Weston Super Saint]

 

And contrary to their quote you show, they tell you that EVERY staircase is unique, even on a development of identical houses. They will NOT provide second-hand tracks.

 

Somebody was conned by the salesman

 

All 'up and down' stair cases share some pretty similar properties to be fair

[bridge too far]

Somebody was conned by the salesman

 

All 'up and down' stair cases share some pretty similar properties to be fair

 

No - I wasn't conned, as you put it. It was made quite clear to me that there is no difference in price from the supplier between a new chair and a second-hand chair. The difference is that the tracks cannot be re-used. It is the length of the rail and how it is fitted and finished that will differ from house to house.

 

For example, we have wide stairs and it was easy to fit the rail to the stairs. Narrow stairs require the track to be fitted to a wall. Allowances have to be made for folding the chair and the track at the bottom of the track and that depends very much on available space in the hall. That will differ house to house.

 

I used to be a procurement manager for an NHS Trust and I can therefore confidently say that Social Services (and the NHS although the NHS won't supply for private houses) have very competitive contracts with suppliers for the supply and fit of chairs and tracks and that it is entirely likely that new chairs / tracks work out cheaper than trying to get a supplier to supply and fit new track only and install a pre-owned chair.

 

As I said before, criticise the suppliers for their restrictive practices, not the purchasers.

 

And as far as cleaning is concerned, the NHS and Social Services will be very alert to the concerns of the public about transmittable disease. If you saw the process undertaken to clean hospital beds every time they're vacated, you'd understand a bit more perhaps. Many hospital / communtiy aquired infections (such as norovirus, MRSA, C difficile) can linger on surfaces for some time. The agencies would err on the side of caution, and understandably so. You'd be the first to moan if they didn't.

[Weston Super Saint]

No - I wasn't conned, as you put it. It was made quite clear to me that there is no difference in price from the supplier between a new chair and a second-hand chair. The difference is that the tracks cannot be re-used. It is the length of the rail and how it is fitted and finished that will differ from house to house.

 

You got a quote from ONE supplier who told you something and you believed it!

 

Can you let me know next time you're shopping for diamonds

[bridge too far]

You got a quote from ONE supplier who told you something and you believed it!

 

Can you let me know next time you're shopping for diamonds

 

Err no. There are two manufacturers in this country - Acorn and Stannah. All the other 'suppliers' are, in fact, agents for these two companies. I got quotes from both manufacturers and a couple of agents actually and got the same tale from each of them.

 

But hey - you carry on knocking me for trying to explain how it works, from first hand experience.

 

I wouldn't dream of telling you how to conduct the hire of fruit machine business deals because I know nothing about it. But I DO know about stair-lifts, believe me.

[bridge too far]

I am sure that there is definitely no-one in either NHS or Social Services taking back-handers whilst negotiating these contracts. Absolutely definitely not. Never.

 

My colleague got an NHS manager sacked for doing just that, on construction contracts FYI. Yes, as in all walks of life, it does happen.

 

Luckily there are people like us about to catch them out.

[Weston Super Saint]

Err no. There are two manufacturers in this country - Acorn and Stannah. All the other 'suppliers' are, in fact, agents for these two companies. I got quotes from both manufacturers and a couple of agents actually and got the same tale from each of them.

 

But hey - you carry on knocking me for trying to explain how it works, from first hand experience.

 

I wouldn't dream of telling you how to conduct the hire of fruit machine business deals because I know nothing about it. But I DO know about stair-lifts, believe me.

 

I'm more than happy to accept that some stair ways are going to be complex and require bespoke systems, but I would suggest that the majority of people would save money installing a second hand system.

 

Help the Aged seem to agree with me too!!

 

Reconditioned Stairlift - Depending on the complexity of your staircase a reconditioned stairlift might be a cost-effective option.

 

http://www.helptheagedshop.co.uk/stairlifts/Stairlift-Purchase.asp

[bridge too far]

I'm more than happy to accept that some stair ways are going to be complex and require bespoke systems, but I would suggest that the majority of people would save money installing a second hand system.

 

Help the Aged seem to agree with me too!!

 

 

 

http://www.helptheagedshop.co.uk/stairlifts/Stairlift-Purchase.asp

 

Of course, this relates to privately funded stairlift systems.

 

Ones provided by Social Services will be significantly cheaper, because they have the purchasing power to obtain better deals (remember, they buy them for council nursing homes, offices, day centres etc. as well as residents). The companies would only offer them the competitive prices on new systems and therefore would not be interested in buy back. And, in any event, the administrative costs to Social Services of trying to sell a second hand system would far outweigh any price they might get.

 

The one in my house was paid for by us - a second hand one was NO CHEAPER than a new one. We talked to the supplier about buying back when my mother no longer needed the chair or even giving it to local Social Services. They said we'd be unlikely to find a buyer. They offered to sell on the chair ONLY, once we no longer needed it. They wouldn't give us anything themselves and they wouldn't take the track.

 

I'll let you know come the time we no longer need the chair. But given my experience in buying the thing in the first place, I'd be surprised if there were any takers, given the ADDITIONAL cost of installing a second-hand system.

[Weston Super Saint]

Of course, this relates to privately funded stairlift systems.

 

Which is what yours was isn't it, and thus all the knowledge you have gained from buying a stairlift!!!

 

But hey - you carry on knocking me for trying to explain how it works, from first hand experience.

[bridge too far]

Which is what yours was isn't it, and thus all the knowledge you have gained from buying a stairlift!!!

 

- yes it was

 

AND I asked about selling it on (eventually) to Social Services and was told that they wouldn't be interested

 

AND I was told (by all suppliers) that a second hand system is no cheaper overall than a new one (because of the ADDITIONAL charge for the track)

 

AND I know from years of experience both as a procurement manager in the public sector and now as an auditor of public sector contracts that suppliers will offer the BEST deals for new systems / equipment

 

AND I know from the above experience that the cost to the public sector of selling on second hand kit (IF they can find a buyer) results in less revenue than the cost of administering such a deal

 

Just as a matter of interest, genuinely: You presumably have contracts with the suppliers of equipment for your pub? Do your suppliers replace, on a regular basis, with new or with reconditioned equipment? I know, for example, that the NHS leases large kit (MRI scanners for example) rather than buying it because it is a more cost effective way of always having state of the art equipment. DOes the same apply to your industry?

[Weston Super Saint]

 

Just as a matter of interest, genuinely: You presumably have contracts with the suppliers of equipment for your pub? Do your suppliers replace, on a regular basis, with new or with reconditioned equipment? I know, for example, that the NHS leases large kit (MRI scanners for example) rather than buying it because it is a more cost effective way of always having state of the art equipment. DOes the same apply to your industry?

 

Equipment is ALWAYS repaired until it reaches the point where it is no longer economical to repair it - ie it is cheaper to replace with new than the cost to repair it.

[Colinjb]

Dealt with the NHS a while ago. They where looking for an aerosol product that could shield battery terminal points in wheelchairs against corrosion from, well.... incontinence.

 

Had a product that would have saved about 10 batteries worth 30 pounds each a year. The product to save them cost 34 pounds and would last 3 years.

 

Because the cost saving wouldn't have been soaked up by the facility that refits them,m as such would have added 12 pounds a year to their budget the purchase was vetoed.

 

Utterly f*cking stupid. A 34 pounds outlay would have saved the public sector £866 pounds. Excluding labour and admin.

[hamster]

My colleague got an NHS manager sacked for doing just that, on construction contracts FYI. Yes, as in all walks of life, it does happen.

 

Luckily there are people like us about to catch them out.

 

Apologies BTF, no offence intended. It does read as though everyone is jumping on your posts here, but I am sure it is not meant that way.

 

As you know from experience, there IS corruption and bad practice in both the NHS and SS, and I am glad that they get stopped. I also believe that there is nepotism in many departments, which you must find so hard to break into. I come across it and the more obvious it is to spot, the more tough it is to penetrate, keep up the good work.

 

In conclusion on Stannah Stairlift Gate, it sounds to me as if their sales and contracts people operate along the lines of timeshare sales people.

 

There must be a better system! But that better system, would render the sale of more profitable (brand new) equipment less profitable for the suppliers. After all, Turkeys would never vote for Christmas, would they.

 

BTF, out of interest, where would you start if you had concerns about a group of service users being systematically, financially abused? If the people who you would normally be expected to speak with are the abusers? Purely hypothetical of course.

[bridge too far]

 

BTF, out of interest, where would you start if you had concerns about a group of service users being systematically, financially abused? If the people who you would normally be expected to speak with are the abusers? Purely hypothetical of course.

 

Every Local Authority should now have a 'Whistle Blowing' number for staff to use in confidence.

 

That's the only 'legal' way I can think of to report a concern. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful - it's not something I get involved in.

 

If the service users are via the NHS, there is the NHS Counter Fraud unit:

 

http://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/fraud

[hamster]

I'm sorry I can't be more helpful - it's not something I get involved in.

 

That is very helpful actually BTF.

 

You may not realise it, but you are probably one of the most respected posters on the whole wide internet.

Happy Christmas BTF. lots of Christmas love to you.

xx's

[Dog]

My colleague got an NHS manager sacked for doing just that, on construction contracts FYI. Yes, as in all walks of life, it does happen.

 

Luckily there are people like us about to catch them out.

 

So BTF are you a proffesional grass or do you just do it as a hobby?

[bridge too far]

So BTF are you a proffesional grass or do you just do it as a hobby?

 

No I get paid for it

 

I'm an auditor and we auditors are duty bound to report fraud and misdoings to the powers that be. Those powers that be then decide how to handle the wrongdoers - not the auditors.

[Dog]

Grass Lowe up then.