Fitzhugh Fella Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 Should the club who has long dined out on the fact it has the best academy in the land, have won some silverware by now? Sorry to be slightly critical here but can't see the point of continually feeding other clubs so they can win trophies if we don't get to at least win one ourselves, even if it is the FA Youth Cup. Maybe last season was our best chance which should have been taken. No doubt many on here will take my post as being deeply sacrilegious but flame away anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Ash Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 Maybe the odd gem that comes through doesn't make a whole squad, or team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 Should the club who has long dined out on the fact it has the best academy in the land, have won some silverware by now? Sorry to be slightly critical here but can't see the point of continually feeding other clubs so they can win trophies if we don't get to at least win one ourselves, even if it is the FA Youth Cup. Maybe last season was our best chance which should have been taken. No doubt many on here will take my post as being deeply sacrilegious but flame away anyway. We have. Didn't we have academy products on the pitch when we won the JPT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 Well, we achieved two promotions and won the JPT recently. Cup success is largely down to luck of the draw and performances "on the day". It's bit of a stretch to say a team who produces good players "should" win something. Why "should" we win anything when the biggest clubs have far greater revenues or virtually unlimited wealth behind them. Our academy players plus some shrewd signings got us to be the eighth best team two years after promotion. I would say that is significantly ahead of "par". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 27 June, 2014 Author Share Posted 27 June, 2014 We have. Didn't we have academy products on the pitch when we won the JPT? that was a great day but a club of our standing shouldn't really be shouting from the roof tops about the JPT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaside Saint 2 Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 Possibly, but look at other high profile academies in England: West Ham, Crewe, Man City, Fulham. Man City are the only ones to have won anything in decades and that's nothing to do with their academy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stthrobber Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 I think its just the case that we know what kind of club we are, and once we expose our best young players to the media glare, the big clubs with bigger reputations come calling. We can't compete with them financially, so can't pay their wages etc, so that makes it difficult to keep them. In this day and age our best chance of silverware has to to be the League or FA Cups, and Wigan apart, it seems the big boys always win those too. I don't see us becoming a cup winning club because it's no player's ambition to end up playing for Southampton, it will always be a club with Champions League experience and pedigree and without a formidable amount of investment, I don't see that happening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 we have only been back in the prem 2 seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killers Knee Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 In Tales of a Secret Footballer the author talks about the job description for a South Coast Managers job. It was clearly the Saints gig. The business model described there is being applied today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 27 June, 2014 Author Share Posted 27 June, 2014 Well, we achieved two promotions and won the JPT recently. Cup success is largely down to luck of the draw and performances "on the day". It's bit of a stretch to say a team who produces good players "should" win something. Why "should" we win anything when the biggest clubs have far greater revenues or virtually unlimited wealth behind them. Our academy players plus some shrewd signings got us to be the eighth best team two years after promotion. I would say that is significantly ahead of "par". Yes Benjii but I am talking about the last 20 years. Yes we won promotions but not recognised silverware. It's now 38 years since we won anything recognisably significant and yet we have had the best academy going back to LM's days. Surely we are either under achieving or failing to capitalise on the youth we uncover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 Yes Benjii but I am talking about the last 20 years. Yes we won promotions but not recognised silverware. It's now 38 years since we won anything recognisably significant and yet we have had the best academy going back to LM's days. Surely we are either under achieving or failing to capitalise on the youth we uncover. I dont think we have had the best academy throughout that time. in the last 8 years or so, yes there was a huge gap before that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?t=49914 If they actually ever stayed long enough maybe we would. Only 4 in the last 20 years who have made over 100 apps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 Should the club who has long dined out on the fact it has the best academy in the land, have won some silverware by now? No. The two are linked but not intrinsically. For starters, for the Academy to influence the first team in that way, a good crop all have to come through within relatively short timescale. Secondly, the first team has to be in contention for silverware in the first place, before those players start to come through. In League 1, if we produced amazing players, they weren't going to stay with us very long (and Oxo didn't) because they would naturally move up the leagues. We're now *closer* to being able to win something with our good Academy products, but obviously the manager situation has contrubuted to some leaving now. I see it as a gradual thing and perhaps in 3 to 5 years time, if we're established in the top 10 of the PL then they can contribute to us winning something. But an Academy on it's own does not lead to silverware, there is luck and timing and other things to consider, not least individual players destiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stthrobber Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 Yes Benjii but I am talking about the last 20 years. Yes we won promotions but not recognised silverware. It's now 38 years since we won anything recognisably significant and yet we have had the best academy going back to LM's days. Surely we are either under achieving or failing to capitalise on the youth we uncover. The problem here is that in order to win things, those players need to develop, and by the time they mature as players, they are long gone. Arguably Walcott and the Ox improved once they left, and Bale certainly did. They had setbacks along the way, but in the days before TV money was king was probably our best chance to win something, now the set up only seems to allow for the rich clubs to get richer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 that was a great day but a club of our standing shouldn't really be shouting from the roof tops about the JPT. Whose shouting. You asked about saints winning silverware as far as I'm aware the JPT is a recognised (even if only recognised as not a very good one) piece of silverware. The other cups the club has made every effort not to win the last few years in favour of the league. none of that has any bearing on our academy in any ideal world our team would have Bale, Oxo, Walcott, Shaw, Chambers, Lallana, Dyer, JWP and Surman in it but the world is not Ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellman Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 We'd have won quite a lot by now if we hadn't sold them all. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 We're only two seasons into the Premiership to put some perspective on it. That said, having a manager who will take the cups seriously might make a significant difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 I'll throw this one out there. We should have won silverware last year. That was our chance. For some reason the management didn't give 2 hoots about the FA Cup or the league cup. I don't care what anyone says, or what the management said back then, we put understrength teams out in both games and we came unstuck because we played understrength teams. It set the tone to the players and the fans. If we'd have attacked the league cup or the FA Cup with the same gusto as we did the 8th place finish, we'd have won one of them at least. For a team who has lost 3 players, totalling almost £60m, we should have been where Hull were last year and in that damn final. As good as finishing 8th was, it means nothing - last year was our chance to win something, we had the players, the management and the quality to do it - but we decided finishing 8th was more important. That will always be an utter, utter frustration for me - probably for years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 I'll agree with most of that S-Clarke - I think we could and should've competed better in cups last year. No one would say we should've won it, but we could've given ourselves a fighting chance. Personally it doesn't bother me as much as you or others, but I do agree we could've done better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 Everton last won something in 1995 Spurs league Cup in 2008 but before that FAC 1991 Villa LC in 1996 West Ham FAC in 1980 Newcastle **** knows Sheffield Wednesday LC 1991 Leeds 1st Div 1992 All bigger clubs than us. The LC throws up the odd non rich winner, Birmingham, Swansea, Middlesborough. There is also the odd dream win (or bought) in the FA Cup, but not many. So the top of football has been dominated by the rich clubs since the early 90's. What happen in the early 90's, the reformatted CL and the Prem, both feeding the top clubs huge amounts of money. We are losing a load of players this summer because for the first time we have a load of players that are wanted by bigger clubs, who have the numbers to pay the wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killers Knee Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 You do get European footy with a cup win, so it might help retain players over the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offix Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 If only MoPo had realized the importance of the FA Cup, and hadn't fielded a B-team when we had the chance to really go for it, I am convinced we could have won it last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 27 June, 2014 Author Share Posted 27 June, 2014 OK I recognise there have been some valid points raised against my view, but I guess it comes down to how important it is to put trophies in cabinets. (sorry the JPT can't count when the country's top teams don't even enter it). For me I like to watch good attractive football (last year was something to be proud of) but I prefer to win (I think). And, given the choice, I would like to see my club actually lift a trophy once in a while (not once in over a century). I know we can never compete with the really big clubs but just recently we have had access to funds (thank you the Liebherr family - we are always going to be grateful) but also we have built on the good work of McMenemy, Lowe, Prost etc etc to have a world acclaimed academy. All this is well and good but we need to have something to tangible show for it all other than a healthy bank balance otherwise just what is the point? West Ham (the last club to build such a reputation for bringing through the youth) at least won a few more trophies than us and were successful in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 Everton last won something in 1995 Spurs league Cup in 2008 but before that FAC 1991 Villa LC in 1996 West Ham FAC in 1980 Newcastle **** knows Sheffield Wednesday LC 1991 Leeds 1st Div 1992 All bigger clubs than us. The LC throws up the odd non rich winner, Birmingham, Swansea, Middlesborough. There is also the odd dream win (or bought) in the FA Cup, but not many. So the top of football has been dominated by the rich clubs since the early 90's. What happen in the early 90's, the reformatted CL and the Prem, both feeding the top clubs huge amounts of money. We are losing a load of players this summer because for the first time we have a load of players that are wanted by bigger clubs, who have the numbers to pay the wages. One word starting with p ending with h, with a whole lot of sh!te in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 27 June, 2014 Share Posted 27 June, 2014 I'm wondering if anyone's outward opinion about Saints has ever swung so much in either direction as much as Santsweb's favourite pink jacketed militant's has and continues to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 29 June, 2014 Share Posted 29 June, 2014 (edited) Should the club who has long dined out on the fact it has the best academy in the land, have won some silverware by now? Sorry to be slightly critical here but can't see the point of continually feeding other clubs so they can win trophies if we don't get to at least win one ourselves, even if it is the FA Youth Cup. Maybe last season was our best chance which should have been taken. No doubt many on here will take my post as being deeply sacrilegious but flame away anyway. no flames Duncan, but if you consider that; 1) a great number of League clubs (even some in the Prem.) have practically no " youth scheme " to speak of, and rarely produce PL quality players, I think we've done quite well as the half-dozen " big sellings" we've done in the last 7-8 years proves that and most of them have made the international level with some success. 2) Whilst it's true that we haven't won any silverware (I see you're not counting the JPT which was a good win at the time, when you consider where the club was), the ongoing production of young talent is still there, but as around half-a-dozen of the current up-and-coming talents started at aged 8 - it takes time to mature to PL standard. Most observers admit that Shaw's success is quite exceptional for one so young. Adam Lallana has succeeded (after 12 years with the club) but, if any Academy lad is going to "make-it" we should expect to see it before he's ..say 22), and to be fair, many of those who " didn't quite make it," have gone on to make careers in the lower leagues (I counted well over a dozen when looking through all the League sides last season.) 3) We've had 3 different managers (for various reasons) since 2009 bankruptcy (RK is the fourth), and that in itself has been a stumbling block, although each of them had their own share of "success" it doesn't provide stability for the " squad " to have continual changes of leadership, as every manager has their own favourite playing formation / system, and import new faces into the squad. 4) Winning trophies is nice, but most fans like to see good football most of the time, there's a lot of luck attached to winning a Cup , and fans will lament that for all the good he's been credited with, Pochettino threw away our FA Cup chances with his poor team selection at Sunderland. YES, you need to rest players, and give other squad members playing time, but he underestimated badly on that one. 5) with the departure of Lambert, Shaw, Lallana ...and who knows who else, we will see a new era with a vastly different line-up. RK hasn't inherited " someone else's star players " and have to use them as he is literally able to start with a blank team sheet. Whether or not we see names like; Chambers, JWP, Gallagher, Reed, Targett, Isgrove, Sinclair and Rowe on it?... remains to be seen, but we are hardly likely to see more than half-a-dozen at any one time as there is a lot of " good " foreign talent out there - even if we haven't seen the best of it recently. lastly...that Silverware you wrote about in the OP ..(the Premier League title ?)....might I live to see it in my lifetime....who knows? One of the cups ..quite possibly. You'll need to be a bit patient. Edited 29 June, 2014 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 29 June, 2014 Share Posted 29 June, 2014 Should the club who has long dined out on the fact it has the best academy in the land, have won some silverware by now? Sorry to be slightly critical here but can't see the point of continually feeding other clubs so they can win trophies if we don't get to at least win one ourselves, even if it is the FA Youth Cup. Maybe last season was our best chance which should have been taken. No doubt many on here will take my post as being deeply sacrilegious but flame away anyway. I'm with you on this one. I'm not too bothered about not being champions as long as we have a good go at everything we enter. As for the academy, I'm getting pretty fed up with seeing these kids given a handful of games to run around in whilst they make their mistakes and learn their trade and then get sold on before they've done us a few years of professional service. In my opinion the aim of the first team should be to develop a solid long-term team that we can support and to whom we can feel an attachment. I don't like watching youngsters who are Liverpool/Arsenal/Man Utd players in all but name. We are like tenant farmers who produce our own good-quality food only for the Lord of the Manor to come along and take his pick of it from us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRobbie Posted 29 June, 2014 Share Posted 29 June, 2014 (edited) Should the club who has long dined out on the fact it has the best academy in the land, have won some silverware by now? Sorry to be slightly critical here but can't see the point of continually feeding other clubs so they can win trophies if we don't get to at least win one ourselves, even if it is the FA Youth Cup. Maybe last season was our best chance which should have been taken. No doubt many on here will take my post as being deeply sacrilegious but flame away anyway. Seems to pay for itself though. If the intent was that we would build our team from the youth setup and get there (Lowes vision) is has proven to be flawed due to one significant underestimation of our modern society and the stupid money in the game. That underestimation is the impact of selfishness. Selfishness of the players, selfishness of the players parents and family, selfishness of the agents, selfishness of the media, selfishness of the fans who follow turn out to see success. There are a handful of of members of our ownership and board who are fighting for successs, and willing to make sacrifices particularly over spending and then there are some selfish journey to whom the club is just another job. Then there are 14000(+?) fans who give their lives - hard earned money and free time to selflessly support their team. They are the last bastion of decency in modern football..... we are the last bastion of passion, loyalty and decency. Every member of this message board who argue and comment, punch drunk by lack of perceived success or desperate for more, it matters not. Whilst selflessness drives individuals the family of the fan base will always be puzzled by the likes of Lallana and Lovren, who seem to be intent to be selfish. I would like our youth set up be given lessons in loyalty. I'm sure the selfless MLT would have a role to play here. If not, we probably have to accept that the youth set up is always for sale, but demand we invest every penny in buying the stars out there to replace them. Edited 29 June, 2014 by SaintRobbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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