Social Fund Loans.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

The political ethos of a country and the attitudes of its citizens feed each other over time, without anyone really noticing. If your policies appeal to people's capacity to be greedy, soulless and heartless, then those qualities will be amplified, whilst the capacity for a social conscience, community spirit etc. is depressed. For me this process has been going on uninterrupted since 1979; the "Labour" Party was so scarred by years in opposition and fear of being called socialist that when in power it has not dared to challenge the Thatcherite consensus in any meaningful way.

 

Society therefore continues on the same path until the flaws in the present system are drastically exposed and people choose en masse to try out a different direction. In 1945 a society fed up of the dole and the class system chose the social democratic path, which gave us the welfare state, NHS and genuine social mobility; governments may have been Labour or Tory, but then as now they recognisably operated in the same sphere. But the flaws in the system (the trade unions turning into spoilt, lazy c*nts, in an arse-load of debt to the IMF, etc.) eventually led to another revolution of both government and popular opinion in 1979. Yet to be seen whether the next few years will lead society in a new direction again, I certainly hope so.

 

Probably the most articulate and concise post I've read for a long time. Let's hope that 'benign capitalism' takes hold and that worthwhile jobs are truly valued. And let's also hope that at last people can be valued for what they are and not what they've got. I also hope that 'society' in the sense of looking out for each other comes back into vogue.

 

In total agreement with both posts which totally articulate my thoughts and feelings on the subject. :yawinkle: Wish I could put my points across like this.

[Weston Super Saint]

Probably the most articulate and concise post I've read for a long time. Let's hope that 'benign capitalism' takes hold and that worthwhile jobs are truly valued. And let's also hope that at last people can be valued for what they are and not what they've got. I also hope that 'society' in the sense of looking out for each other comes back into vogue.

 

Who is to decide which job is and isn't 'worthwhile'?

 

What do you mean by 'valued', is it monetary reward?

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

Who is to decide which job is and isn't 'worthwhile'?

 

What do you mean by 'valued', is it monetary reward?

 

We, for starters, IMO 'jobs' such as bond trading, hedge fund management and the like are not only not worthwhile but are of no benefit to society at all.

[bridge too far]

Who is to decide which job is and isn't 'worthwhile'?

 

What do you mean by 'valued', is it monetary reward?

 

I think most sensible people know what jobs are worthwhile.

 

Nurse / doctor / teacher / carer for people with physical or mental disabilities.

 

Or

 

Bankers / stockbrokers / footballers.

 

Tough call, that one.

 

And by 'valued' I mean respected and admired, not necessarily rewarded financially, although I would argue that most of the first category should earn more than they do at this time. I would have no problem with the second category earning considerably less than they do now.

[Saint George]

You can't talk St George. The debt within your country outstrips the amount of money that's ever been printed. Good luck with that.

 

As scary as that is, you do realise that when you factor everything into the UK's economic figures and compare 'like for like' with the US. You're sitting on a 'true' UK National debt of around 180% GDP!?!?......Some econamist's around the world even put it closer to 230%....

 

The UK's current National debt figures have the same NuLabour spin as their crime figures' 'Only partially reported'..........For instance there's absolutely no account for the Governments Ponzi/Madoff pyramid type pension scheme....Still has to be paid for tho....Along with a whole load of other socialist welfare type expenditure that's missing.....And that brings me to my original point and back on topic.

 

How long can Britain continue with its cart blanche welfare handouts?.....This whole global economic crisis came about through bad debt...Much of it forced upon banks and private institutions by socialist or socialist leaning Governments...The whole problem in the US came about due to Clinton (Democrat) forcing laws uopon the banking/mortgage system, making them lend people money against their better judgment.

 

The 27% interest on the emergency social fund is a reflection of the risk involved in lending the money.....Lets be totally honest here. If these people are the "poorest of the poor" then its more than likely they're going to default on the loan...In fact i can almost garentee at least 50% of them will........Why should hard working and frugal tax payers continue to be expected to constantly put their hands in their pockets to bail out people who have chosen not to make anything of their life, or to live a life of welfare...Especially in this current climate where everyone's feeling it......Making the 'loan' available to someone who the banks wouldn't touch with a barge pole is a great move in my view.....'Giving' the money away is pure stupidity.

 

If some people feel strongly about it then let them donate to a charity fund or something.....But leave the tax payer out of it

[Weston Super Saint]

I think most sensible people know what jobs are worthwhile.

 

Nurse / doctor / teacher / carer for people with physical or mental disabilities.

 

Or

 

Bankers / stockbrokers / footballers.

 

Tough call, that one.

 

And by 'valued' I mean respected and admired, not necessarily rewarded financially, although I would argue that most of the first category should earn more than they do at this time. I would have no problem with the second category earning considerably less than they do now.

 

LOL.

 

So you've contradicted your own beliefs already :shock:

 

You say 'Bankers' aren't really worthwhile, but I'd suggest that if you were forced to keep all your money under your mattress you might hastily re-assess this.

 

Also, if you pay people more money I would suggest that they will spend more, better cars, bigger houses etc, which effectively will only really move the balance of wealth, with some people still super rich and others super poor.

 

Also (DSM), how exactly are we - I'm assuming you mean the population of the UK rather than TSW users - going to decide on the most 'valued' jobs. I think we can both see which way the 'masses' are likely to vote, with people like Jade Goody and Wayne Rooney being the uber valued class

[bridge too far]

Hey WSS why not try resorting to stereotypes?

 

You know only too well what DSM and I were saying. Of course we need banks but, with them likely to have more state intervention, hopefully the bankers will get rewarded more realistically. They will, after all, become civil servants and answerable to all of us. They certainly haven't justified their inflated salaries and bonuses of late, have they.

 

If you read Mao Cap's post properly (but you don't do that, do you - you just jerk a knee or two) you would understand that we're saying that there's more to life than just shed loads of money.

 

However, I do happen to think that someone who cleans up a doubly incontinent old man with senile dementia deserves a HUGE amount of respect and a living wage as much, if not more, than for example a stock broker or commodity trader. It's very sad that carers have to do such work for about £12K a year.

 

The balance needs adjusting. Hopefully the expose of the nasty side of capitalism will bring this about.

[Weston Super Saint]

Hey WSS why not try resorting to stereotypes?

 

You know only too well what DSM and I were saying. Of course we need banks but, with them likely to have more state intervention, hopefully the bankers will get rewarded more realistically. They will, after all, become civil servants and answerable to all of us. They certainly haven't justified their inflated salaries and bonuses of late, have they.

 

If you read Mao Cap's post properly (but you don't do that, do you - you just jerk a knee or two) you would understand that we're saying that there's more to life than just shed loads of money.

 

However, I do happen to think that someone who cleans up a doubly incontinent old man with senile dementia deserves a HUGE amount of respect and a living wage as much, if not more, than for example a stock broker or commodity trader. It's very sad that carers have to do such work for about £12K a year.

 

The balance needs adjusting. Hopefully the expose of the nasty side of capitalism will bring this about.

 

I read it.

 

I just don't happen to agree with all of it!! It's what makes the world interesting when people have differing views!!! You label it as knee jerk reactions though which is kind of weird

 

I also don't agree with your example!! A stockbrokers only purpose in his/her working life - rightly or wrongly - is to make money. If they are good at that job then they will make a lot of money. Unfortunately not all people are able to make money like that so they aren't all stockbrokers!! It's almost like natural selection if you like!! Anyway, there MUST be enough people that are both able to wipe arses and willing to do so, because simple economics - which you probably don't agree with - dictates that if there wasn't the supply then the demand would increase and the price would rise, hence the wages would be better. I don't see anything wrong with that if I'm honest.

 

Also, where did we get state run banks from??

 

I'd be just as happy to see the poor performing banks go to the wall and really don't want the taxes I pay to go towards propping them up. You yourself have already admitted that state run enterprises seem to have a little too much excess fat around the seems, do you really think the banks will be on top of their game if they became state run?

[bridge too far]

But you're talking about money only!

 

And that was kind of my point. It isn't about money - it's about valuing people for their compassion, care, contribution and dedication to the rest of society.

 

This 'value' has to go hand in hand with paying people a decent living wage. Of course it does. But values are distorted if, for example, bankers get millions in bonuses for failing and a*se wipers get a pittance for what they do.

 

At the risk of boring you, I'll repeat my mantra. People should be judged by what they are (i.e. their contribution to the well-being of society at large) rather than what they can buy.

 

My son earns five times the salary of my son-in-law who is a special needs teacher. My son would agree with me that my son-in-law makes the more valuable contribution to society.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

It's all a matter of perspective which will differ from person to person. You made me laugh WSS, but God forbid the likes of Jade goody becoming the uber valued class. Although footballers seem to be already part of that scenario!

 

I would place the services high in value, from Armed forces through to Nurses, Police etc. People in places of finance also have their standing, although in recent months we have seen where greed (an emotion we are all capable of) in that quarter can lead us. So maybe more regulation, properly, by the Government in that particular area.

 

How do you value people who work in Factories though? Producing things, food included, which not only keep the country healthy and running but also bring in money via export?

 

What about the people who keep this country clean (no comments please about litter etc because it is the public who cause that) by emptying bins, cleaning streets, processing our waste at the sewage farm?

 

Then we have those who genuinely cannot work, we cannot, I certainly would not, place a low value on them because they are often in a situation not of their own making.

 

Which leads, finally, to those who will not work ?

 

We'll all, most certainly, have common ground in our thoughts on those!

 

To anybody whose chosen line of work I have omitted, I apologise and do value your input into society!

[Weston Super Saint]

But you're talking about money only!

 

And that was kind of my point. It isn't about money - it's about valuing people for their compassion, care, contribution and dedication to the rest of society.

 

This 'value' has to go hand in hand with paying people a decent living wage. Of course it does. But values are distorted if, for example, bankers get millions in bonuses for failing and a*se wipers get a pittance for what they do.

 

At the risk of boring you, I'll repeat my mantra. People should be judged by what they are (i.e. their contribution to the well-being of society at large) rather than what they can buy.

 

My son earns five times the salary of my son-in-law who is a special needs teacher. My son would agree with me that my son-in-law makes the more valuable contribution to society.

 

Isn't this covered by Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

 

This esoteric back slapping that you refer to is much higher up the needs than the need to earn money, put food on the table and a roof over your head - basic human needs - unless of course they are all provided by the state for everyone, then they will literally just be basic!!

[Weston Super Saint]

It's all a matter of perspective which will differ from person to person. You made me laugh WSS, but God forbid the likes of Jade goody becoming the uber valued class. Although footballers seem to be already part of that scenario!

 

I would place the services high in value, from Armed forces through to Nurses, Police etc. People in places of finance also have their standing, although in recent months we have seen where greed (an emotion we are all capable of) in that quarter can lead us. So maybe more regulation, properly, by the Government in that particular area.

 

How do you value people who work in Factories though? Producing things, food included, which not only keep the country healthy and running but also bring in money via export?

 

What about the people who keep this country clean (no comments please about litter etc because it is the public who cause that) by emptying bins, cleaning streets, processing our waste at the sewage farm?

 

Then we have those who genuinely cannot work, we cannot, I certainly would not, place a low value on them because they are often in a situation not of their own making.

 

Which leads, finally, to those who will not work ?

 

We'll all, most certainly, have common ground in our thoughts on those!

 

To anybody whose chosen line of work I have omitted, I apologise and do value your input into society!

 

And that, unfortunately is why that system wouldn't work, someone, somewhere will ALWAYS fell aggrieved

[bridge too far]

I've decided my New Year's Resolution!

 

It is to find out where WSS's pub is and, armed with ESB, visit and have a face to face debate

 

Have a good holiday WSS. I really enjoy crossing swords with you

[Saint George]

I'm amazed that even with the benefit of hindsight some people are 'still' bad mouthing Maggie

 

That woman near single handedly pulled Britain back from the brink....When she came to Office, Britain was one of the most ****ed up countries in the world......She cured the "British desiese" and restored the "Sick Man of Europe" and "Basket Case" into the economically sound and respected nation it once was.

 

Maggie broke the glass ceiling and as DD said, gave us all an opportunity, never seen before in Britain.... She made it possible for people to progress and improve thier lives with hard work, sweat and common sence, no matter what their background....... Some of us took notice and grabbed the opportunity with both hands and others just continued as they were, the way they've always been and no doubt always will.

 

Sure, some people got greedy and some, after decades of the comfort blanket of socialism just weren't up to taking on the responsibility of being acountable for their own actions.....Just about all my friends and family before Thatcher had very similar and fairly mundane futures in front of us back then.....After a decade of Maggie in charge, most of us have ended up moving off the 'factory floor' to run our own businesses or into management. A couple are still on factory floor doing the same as they did back then....But they hated Thatcher with a passion.

 

Its easy for people to take any wealth they have today for granted like its always been there....But if it weren't for Thatcher it would be a whole different story......Its sickening to watch all that visionary and hard work of hers get so callously and often stealthily undone while Britain sleep walks back to the brink.....But if thats what people want then who's to say different

[bridge too far]

I'm surprised you left then StG. Why not stay and fight the fight?

 

[Weston Super Saint]

I've decided my New Year's Resolution!

 

It is to find out where WSS's pub is and, armed with ESB, visit and have a face to face debate

 

Have a good holiday WSS. I really enjoy crossing swords with you

 

It'd be fun!

 

We'd need a lock in though as we'd never agree

[Saint George]

I'm surprised you left then StG. Why not stay and fight the fight?

 

 

Heh, I'm not stupid, I know when a battle's lost...It would take someone the like of Sir Winston Churchil or Margret Thatcher to wake Britain up and turn things around ....And that's not going to happen...... That sort of character has long since been bred out of the British....