Social Fund Loans.

[Ponty]

So James Purnell wants to hand the emergency, interest free, social fund loans over to private credit agencies, where loanees will be charged almost 27% APR instead of 0%. Surely Gordon Brown wouldn't allow the poorest people in Britain to be raped so? The capitalist Tory pigs are up in arms about this one, and rightly so. It certainly seems a strange proposal, given the current economic climate.

[TopGun]

It does sound odd.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

This sounds to me like a typical 'Tory Blair' move. Passing the buck to a private credit agency, which will pay the Government handsomely for the privilege of running the fund and take running costs off the Government list, and appropriately will shift any blame onto the private sector.

 

And to think I helped vote these prycks in to power.

 

If you think I'm turning Tory, don't hold your breath!

[Toomer]

This sounds to me like a typical 'Tory Blair' move. Passing the buck to a private credit agency, which will pay the Government handsomely for the privilege of running the fund and take running costs off the Government list, and appropriately will shift any blame onto the private sector.

 

And to think I helped vote these prycks in to power.

 

If you think I'm turning Tory, don't hold your breath!

 

Bring back Maggie Thatcher:)

[Jillyanne]

Bring back Maggie Thatcher:)

 

Is she dead then?

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Bring back Maggie Thatcher:)

 

I believe you're taking the rise old mate!

 

Is she dead then?

 

She can't do that yet, I'm all spent out on Christmas and couldn't afford the celebratory bender which my mate and I have promised ourselves since Orgreave.

[Kadeem Hardison]

Bring back Maggie Thatcher:)

 

I hope Justin Lee Collins is reading this.

[Ponty]

This sounds to me like a typical 'Tory Blair' move. Passing the buck to a private credit agency, which will pay the Government handsomely for the privilege of running the fund and take running costs off the Government list, and appropriately will shift any blame onto the private sector.

 

And to think I helped vote these prycks in to power.

 

If you think I'm turning Tory, don't hold your breath!

 

By voting Labour you already are as close to Tory as the Conservatives will ever get you. The only difference that I can see is that the Conservatives are less adept at hiding the taxes and charges behind spin.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

By voting Labour you already are as close to Tory as the Conservatives will ever get you. The only difference that I can see is that the Conservatives are less adept at hiding the taxes and charges behind spin.

 

I can't argue against your point mate.

 

Unfortunately there is no other party that remotely resembles my political aspirations. So I diligently place my cross each time ( I tactically vote Lib Dem to keep the Tories out of Eastleigh) and just hope that should Labour get re-elected (I know I'm dreaming a bit here) they will undo a lot of their mistakes.

[Ponty]

Which bit do you consider 'dreaming'? The bit where Labour get re-elected or the bit where they undo their mistakes? What will actually happen is that the Conservatives will bluster about Brown's stealth taxes and the general state of the economy, get elected and then carry on raping us all as the Nu-Labs have done. Same bastards, different name.

[Johnny Bognor]

Ronnie Campbell, Labour MP for Blyth Valley, said: ‘James Purnell makes me ashamed to be a member of the Labour Party. It is a disgrace the way he is hitting the poor. Not even the Tories would try to do this.’

 

Socialism Rocks!

Edited 21 December, 2008 by Johnny Bognor

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Which bit do you consider 'dreaming'? The bit where Labour get re-elected or the bit where they undo their mistakes? What will actually happen is that the Conservatives will bluster about Brown's stealth taxes and the general state of the economy, get elected and then carry on raping us all as the Nu-Labs have done. Same bastards, different name.

 

Again, I can't argue your point. I just can't knowingly put a cross for the party that spawned a woman who took school milk from the kids, went to war to gain popularity (I know, who said Blair didn't!) and herself set in motion a culture of greed and self self self which sees this once great nation as it is today. The banks, businesses and financial institutions are now reaping the crop from the seeds she sowed, and who is paying for those seeds? The Great British Public.

 

Thanks a lot Baroness Barmy (cue the sailor's defense of his queen).

 

And sadly Labour seem to continue to ape that party.

 

Maybe I should spoil my paper next time?

[Ponty]

You may as well. There are no worthy, or worthwhile, candidates.

[Weston Super Saint]

Again, I can't argue your point. I just can't knowingly put a cross for the party that spawned a woman who took school milk from the kids, went to war to gain popularity (I know, who said Blair didn't!) and herself set in motion a culture of greed and self self self which sees this once great nation as it is today. The banks, businesses and financial institutions are now reaping the crop from the seeds she sowed, and who is paying for those seeds? The Great British Public.

 

Thanks a lot Baroness Barmy (cue the sailor's defense of his queen).

 

And sadly Labour seem to continue to ape that party.

 

Maybe I should spoil my paper next time?

 

LOL.

 

And people say Lowe cannot shoulder the blame for all the problems at SFC, but you seem happy to place every single problem that broken Britain has squarely on the shoulders of someone who has had no influence in the day to day running of the country for 18 years!!

 

Why not blame Walpole or one of the Pitt's??

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

This sort of attitude by politicians makes me want to weep. The old-time socialists who founded the Labour Party must be turning in their graves.

 

Instead of screwing the poor and spending millions on people claiming benefits and who still can't make ends meet and do a little work as well, why don't the Government do something about the Black Economy and investigate and legislate against those who pay little or no tax yet are amongst the richest people in society. How can it be fair when someone like Rupert Murdoch pays less than £100 a year in tax?*

 

(*BBC Watchdog)

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

LOL.

 

And people say Lowe cannot shoulder the blame for all the problems at SFC, but you seem happy to place every single problem that broken Britain has squarely on the shoulders of someone who has had no influence in the day to day running of the country for 18 years!!

 

Why not blame Walpole or one of the Pitt's??

 

She single handedly started off the recession of the late eighties with her abolition of MIRS for each of a non-married couple of mortgage payers in the budget, but gave a lead time of six months. This double benefit was not available to married couples anyway but it saw inflationary price increases in property prices over those six months with an economy which would not be able to sustain such a rise.

 

I sold my house for £42,000 in January 1987, a three-bedroomed semi in Surrey which I had bought for £32,500 two years earlier.

It was sold less than twelve months later for over £150,000.

 

Also, as has been said earlier, she was responsible for the introduction of the "Greed is Good" culture; bugger you Jack, I'm all right and f*ck the little man. We are now reaping the benefits with the youth of today who have no parental controls and no respect for people, life or property.

[Johnny Bognor]

She single handedly started off the recession of the late eighties

 

That's right. No other country in the world suffered a recession at that time, the UK was the only country and it was all Maggie's fault. :smt044

 

Now that the socialists have a recession, it is a global problem :rolleyes:

[Weston Super Saint]

She single handedly started off the recession of the late eighties

 

I'm not arguing that she didn't make any mistakes, but to continue blaming her for the current economic climate and policies being introduced by a political party that she fiercely fought against is completely ludicrous

[Ponty]

Well said Bognor and (am I gonna actually say this?) WSS.

[Thedelldays]

lol

 

one day the excuse of blaming someone who has not had a say for over 18 years (soon to be 19 years) will might start to look silly by those who use it....

[EastleighSoulBoy]

LOL.

 

And people say Lowe cannot shoulder the blame for all the problems at SFC, ***but you seem happy to place every single problem*** that broken Britain has squarely on the shoulders of someone who has had no influence in the day to day running of the country for 18 years!!

 

Why not blame Walpole or one of the Pitt's??

 

I blame the Finchley ***** because she started the sell off of Council Properties which let the financial institutions run rampant in giving out mortgages and loans, often, in dubious circumstances which led to people,

who had bought the dream, over committing themselves financially. Despite being the party of Law and Order they managed to somehow constrain the powers of the police so that all they effectively seem to do is shuffle paper, tick boxes on forms and persecute the easy targets (motorists). So while our, still magnificent, police force act as uniformed secretaries with ever increasing mountains of paperwork those who wish to break the law are left, relatively, unscathed to do whatever to whosoever they choose. The wholesale desecration of British Industry by selling off to the biggest bidder (non UK companies) which left the workforces totally at the whim of cost cutting exercises when they wanted to save money.

Deregulation which led to competition but led to cost cutting on maintaining infrastructures so that the bus and train fleets were running on a shoestring and dangerous practices.

 

Those same large foreign companies charging British people more for their energy than citizens of their home countries.

 

Yes, she was the thin end of the wedge in my opinion so I do hold her responsible.

 

I have not said that this Labour Government is not to blame. They have become just as bad.

 

*** Error WSS, Please re-read***

Edited 21 December, 2008 by EastleighSoulBoy

[Wilko]

James Purnell can suck my balls. He's a **** of the highest order. Labour my arse.

[Weston Super Saint]

I blame the Finchley ***** because she started the sell off of Council Properties which let ......................................................................

 

And yet you place no blame at the feet of the various other governments that have done nothing to stop this and all the other practices from continuing for the past 18 years....

 

You also fail to mention that ALL of the council properties were sold at a HUGE discount WAY BELOW market valuation to help those people get on the property ladder.

 

Strangely you also place no blame on the same people that then sold their houses a couple of years later for a HUGE profit.

 

Edit : there's no Error you blame Thatcher for starting it all off, but don't seem to accept that other governments COULD have reversed the situation if they wanted to - and if they weren't making vast sums of money from it

[bridge too far]

It may not be fair to blame past governments for some of the ills that this country experiences these days. But there is one undeniable fact.

 

Thatcher changed the MORAL tone of this country by encouraging the greedy, me first attitude of so many. She was responsible for the culture of judging people by what they had rather than what they were. She devalued the honest working man and woman.

 

That change in the MORAL tone is still with us today and it underpins the problems society in this country now has. Foster the belief that possessions are more important than moral standards, whilst at the same time offering little or no hope to a marginalised section of society, and that marginalised section responds in the only way open to it.

 

So, to my mind, a lot of blame can be laid fairly at her door.

[Ponty]

One thing you can't blame her, Major or any other Conservative in history for, is the topic of this thread.

 

End of story.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

And yet you place no blame at the feet of the various other governments that have done nothing to stop this and all the other practices from continuing for the past 18 years....

 

You also fail to mention that ALL of the council properties were sold at a HUGE discount WAY BELOW market valuation to help those people get on the property ladder.

 

Strangely you also place no blame on the same people that then sold their houses a couple of years later for a HUGE profit.

 

That is all part of the malaise. These big profits were themselves either wisely reinvested into bigger, better, newer properties or, sadly, taken as remortgages for the new car, boat, holiday home etc. Where, I ask again, have I said that the Labour Government are blameless? If anything I stated that they aped the Tory mantra.

[Thedelldays]

That is all part of the malaise. These big profits were themselves either wisely reinvested into bigger, better, newer properties or, sadly, taken as remortgages for the new car, boat, holiday home etc. Where, I ask again, have I said that the Labour Government are blameless? If anything I stated that they aped the Tory mantra.

 

 

what is so wrong in people who were less fortunate being given an opportunity to own their own homes and make something of themselves...

 

so what if someone invested money they gained by taking a chance and bought better things for themselves..

 

what do you want....communist soviet union?

[bridge too far]

And the other sad thing about selling off council houses is that the Councils weren't allowed to invest the proceeds in building replacements.

 

This, of course, led to a dire shortage of housing to rent and drove up prices of houses for sale.

 

TDD, there's nothing wrong at all with people buying houses they've lived in for donkey's years. But the proceeds should have been re-invested in local authority housing.

Edited 21 December, 2008 by bridge too far
Just seen TDD's comment

[Ponty]

What the **** has any of this got to do with James Purcell's unbelievable proposal!?

[Thedelldays]

im 28 and own two properties....NONE of my family even had a chance to own a peoprty at my age....it simply was not an option..

 

so...if we are going to blame maggie for making the system today....I just want to 'doff my hat to her as I have more opportunities in my life than any of my famiy did 30 years ago...

 

what is so wrong in that...?

[Saint George]

It wont matter who you vote for next time.....The ever bigger and bloated Nanny will still need to be paid......Man she eats so much now, there's no way i can see how y'all are going to do it......She's eaten peeps out of house and home and now she's after the kids

 

Good luck with that

[EastleighSoulBoy]

what is so wrong in people who were less fortunate being given an opportunity to own their own homes and make something of themselves...

 

so what if someone invested money they gained by taking a chance and bought better things for themselves..

 

what do you want....communist soviet union?

 

Where did I say it was wrong for people to own their own homes? People were encouraged to own their own homes by the action of selling them at a discount. The cynic in me has always thought that it was a crumb from the table for the working man. So that when he was neatly manacled with a mortgage he would 'be a good boy' and do just what the bosses wanted with regard to wages and conditions.

 

It's the culture of avarice which, by some strange miracle, really burgeoned during the Thatcher years that has led over the ensuing years to people getting what they wanted by any means whatsoever (if it suited them). And no Government has really acted to stem that tide.

 

No I do not want a communist state, any more than a right wing one!

[Ponty]

You can't talk St George. The debt within your country outstrips the amount of money that's ever been printed. Good luck with that.

[Thedelldays]

You can't talk St George. The debt within your country outstrips the amount of money that's ever been printed. Good luck with that.

this is not a pishing contest is it....:confused:

[Ponty]

He started it!

 

I just want to get back to the subject in hand... and it's not fricking council houses.

[Johnny Bognor]

He started it!

 

I just want to get back to the subject in hand... and it's not fricking council houses.

 

 

The problem is, when you have a pop at the New Socialist Party, they always drag up Thatcher.

 

It will always be a sore point for them as Peter Mandelson once said "we are all Thatcherites now" (Circa 2001). To be fair they have been betrayed by their own party, but it does confirm that their war of political ideals has been lost.

[bridge too far]

Who are these 'New Socialists' you talk of, BS?

[Johnny Bognor]

Who are these 'New Socialists' you talk of, BS?

 

New Labour - who are suspiciously tory-like in their composition. (Having ditched their socialist principles to get and STAY elected). Unfortunately, their socialist followers can only whinge on the sidelines. If anything, the greatest change effected by Mrs T, was the complete abandonment of the policies of the Labour party.

 

My biggest worry is that Crash Gordon / Gordon Clown would move to the left, but on the contrary, this loan debacle looks like he is trying to out-thatcher thatcher.

Edited 21 December, 2008 by Johnny Bognor

[bridge too far]

If there was a New Socialist movement, I would join like a shot.

 

Perhaps you don't understand the difference between the Labour Party we have at the moment and socialism?

[Ponty]

Socialism and Capitalism are both driven by the same thing anyway, money.

[Johnny Bognor]

If there was a New Socialist movement, I would join like a shot.

 

Perhaps you don't understand the difference between the Labour Party we have at the moment and socialism?

 

I do understand the difference - the current Labour Party had to ditch socialism to get elected - doesn't that tell you something?

 

Unfortunately, the socialists have no political representation at present. Perhaps you should start the Public Sector Can Do Know Wrong & Socialist Workers Party (PSCDK&SWP for short)?

[bridge too far]

I do understand the difference - the current Labour Party had to ditch socialism to get elected - doesn't that tell you something?

 

Unfortunately, the socialists have no political representation at present. Perhaps you should start the Public Sector Can Do Know Wrong & Socialist Workers Party (PSCDK&SWP for short)?

 

It tells me that the Labour Party has adopted concensus politics. And that the very people, who were OK with concensus politics and voted them in, are now unhappy.

 

So probably next time we'll have a middle of the road Tory government, adopting concensus politics. I wonder what will happen then? Heaven help us, we'll have George 'Bullingdon' Osborne running the economy - he who is the representative of, and in total sympathy with, the working man and woman

 

I don't think the Public Sector can 'do no wrong'. I spend my working life telling them where they ARE doing it wrong!

[Johnny Bognor]

 

I don't think the Public Sector can 'do no wrong'. I spend my working life telling them where they ARE doing it wrong!

 

I beg to differ, you seem to spend most of your working life defending them on here

[bridge too far]

I beg to differ, you seem to spend most of your working life defending them on here

 

No - I defend the principle of public service.

 

That is entirely different.

[Weston Super Saint]

It may not be fair to blame past governments for some of the ills that this country experiences these days. But there is one undeniable fact.

 

Thatcher changed the MORAL tone of this country by encouraging the greedy, me first attitude of so many. She was responsible for the culture of judging people by what they had rather than what they were. She devalued the honest working man and woman.

 

That change in the MORAL tone is still with us today and it underpins the problems society in this country now has. Foster the belief that possessions are more important than moral standards, whilst at the same time offering little or no hope to a marginalised section of society, and that marginalised section responds in the only way open to it.

 

So, to my mind, a lot of blame can be laid fairly at her door.

 

If it was that easy to change the mind set of an entire nation, then why hasn't it been changed back since Nu Labour came to power?

 

The simple fact is that like them or not, the policies that Thatcher put into place earn an absolute fortune for the Government.

 

I think it is entirely evident that this Government has no intention to relinquish this income - probably go so far as to say they absolutely RELY on it - so much so that this new policy will doubtless increase the amount of money they can get their grubby little hands on.

 

You cannot lay the blame at Thatchers door when this Government, and it's predecessors did absolutely nothing to change what is apparently wrong.

[Thedelldays]

He started it!

 

I just want to get back to the subject in hand... and it's not fricking council houses.

 

 

yes...it is like me laughing at a premiership footballer who has a bigger mortgage.... :smt012

[Mao Cap]

If it was that easy to change the mind set of an entire nation, then why hasn't it been changed back since Nu Labour came to power?

 

The simple fact is that like them or not, the policies that Thatcher put into place earn an absolute fortune for the Government.

 

I think it is entirely evident that this Government has no intention to relinquish this income - probably go so far as to say they absolutely RELY on it - so much so that this new policy will doubtless increase the amount of money they can get their grubby little hands on.

 

You cannot lay the blame at Thatchers door when this Government, and it's predecessors did absolutely nothing to change what is apparently wrong.

 

The political ethos of a country and the attitudes of its citizens feed each other over time, without anyone really noticing. If your policies appeal to people's capacity to be greedy, soulless and heartless, then those qualities will be amplified, whilst the capacity for a social conscience, community spirit etc. is depressed. For me this process has been going on uninterrupted since 1979; the "Labour" Party was so scarred by years in opposition and fear of being called socialist that when in power it has not dared to challenge the Thatcherite consensus in any meaningful way.

 

Society therefore continues on the same path until the flaws in the present system are drastically exposed and people choose en masse to try out a different direction. In 1945 a society fed up of the dole and the class system chose the social democratic path, which gave us the welfare state, NHS and genuine social mobility; governments may have been Labour or Tory, but then as now they recognisably operated in the same sphere. But the flaws in the system (the trade unions turning into spoilt, lazy c*nts, in an arse-load of debt to the IMF, etc.) eventually led to another revolution of both government and popular opinion in 1979. Yet to be seen whether the next few years will lead society in a new direction again, I certainly hope so.

[saint1977]

Again, I can't argue your point. I just can't knowingly put a cross for the party that spawned a woman who took school milk from the kids, went to war to gain popularity (I know, who said Blair didn't!) and herself set in motion a culture of greed and self self self which sees this once great nation as it is today. The banks, businesses and financial institutions are now reaping the crop from the seeds she sowed, and who is paying for those seeds? The Great British Public.

 

Thanks a lot Baroness Barmy (cue the sailor's defense of his queen).

 

And sadly Labour seem to continue to ape that party.

 

Maybe I should spoil my paper next time?

 

Trouble is ESB, when Thatcher said in 1997 as Blair was taking office that she deemed him her successor/protege, you can see from the above examples that she really meant it (and sadly was right).

 

I'm either a One Nation Tory or on the Right of the Labour Party and I see nothing now that would make me vote for either party. I'll vote Green at the next election. My advice to people is to take a lot less notice of the press - the Mail is way to the right of even the Tory party and the Telegraph has printed some real junk recently. Dinosaurs like Kelvin McKenzie are popping up again in the Red Tops which is alarming.

[saint1977]

The political ethos of a country and the attitudes of its citizens feed each other over time, without anyone really noticing. If your policies appeal to people's capacity to be greedy, soulless and heartless, then those qualities will be amplified, whilst the capacity for a social conscience, community spirit etc. is depressed. For me this process has been going on uninterrupted since 1979; the "Labour" Party was so scarred by years in opposition and fear of being called socialist that when in power it has not dared to challenge the Thatcherite consensus in any meaningful way.

 

Society therefore continues on the same path until the flaws in the present system are drastically exposed and people choose en masse to try out a different direction. In 1945 a society fed up of the dole and the class system chose the social democratic path, which gave us the welfare state, NHS and genuine social mobility; governments may have been Labour or Tory, but then as now they recognisably operated in the same sphere. But the flaws in the system (the trade unions turning into spoilt, lazy c*nts, in an arse-load of debt to the IMF, etc.) eventually led to another revolution of both government and popular opinion in 1979. Yet to be seen whether the next few years will lead society in a new direction again, I certainly hope so.

 

Good post and having a stake in large companies and banks will mean that the public simply will not tolerate the asset stripping, creaming off millions and dreadful standard of UK Senior Management that has become the norm in the last 25 years. Good rewards for good, hard work should be the national ethos. Going back to the original point of the thread, I assume that Brown is trying to fend off the Tories on the "sponger" territory which is fertile territory and trying to combat the Mail and other Neo-Con papers like the Express. Trouble is, I agree that it is an appalling proposal and doesn't do Brown any favours.

Edited 22 December, 2008 by saint1977

[bridge too far]

The political ethos of a country and the attitudes of its citizens feed each other over time, without anyone really noticing. If your policies appeal to people's capacity to be greedy, soulless and heartless, then those qualities will be amplified, whilst the capacity for a social conscience, community spirit etc. is depressed. For me this process has been going on uninterrupted since 1979; the "Labour" Party was so scarred by years in opposition and fear of being called socialist that when in power it has not dared to challenge the Thatcherite consensus in any meaningful way.

 

Society therefore continues on the same path until the flaws in the present system are drastically exposed and people choose en masse to try out a different direction. In 1945 a society fed up of the dole and the class system chose the social democratic path, which gave us the welfare state, NHS and genuine social mobility; governments may have been Labour or Tory, but then as now they recognisably operated in the same sphere. But the flaws in the system (the trade unions turning into spoilt, lazy c*nts, in an arse-load of debt to the IMF, etc.) eventually led to another revolution of both government and popular opinion in 1979. Yet to be seen whether the next few years will lead society in a new direction again, I certainly hope so.

 

Probably the most articulate and concise post I've read for a long time. Let's hope that 'benign capitalism' takes hold and that worthwhile jobs are truly valued. And let's also hope that at last people can be valued for what they are and not what they've got. I also hope that 'society' in the sense of looking out for each other comes back into vogue.