England v Uruguay

[Smirking_Saint]

And therein lies the problem with the England national team.

 

The self-styled best league in the world will be crowing that it supplied more players for World Cup squads than any other league.

 

120 players in the finals ply their trade in the FA, the next best is Italy with 82, then Germany 77.

 

Take out the 22 players in the England squad from that 120 and that leaves 98 foreign players in the top flight. Don't blame the clubs for signing those players, blame the system.

 

The Premier League's dog-eat-dog nature provides clubs with the financial wherewithal, and excuse not to spend valuable time and resources developing domestic young talent.

 

The huge rewards in the Premier League are not conducive to long-termism and patient development. Why spend time and resources on developing a young player and bringing him through when thanks to the largesse of Sky and BT you can go out and buy a ready-made product off the shelf of your nearest European or South American quicki-mart?

 

The TV companies don't dole out huge wads of cash to screen games featuring up-and-coming youngsters, they want clubs to spend their money on big-name overseas players. After all, it's what makes the Premier League the self-styled Best League in the World.

 

And of course, it suits the TV companies to have some of the world's top players in the EPL, they can sell their packages predicated on the great players you will be able to see on the haunted fishtank in the corner of your room.

 

It's win-win for the TV companies, win-win for the viewer and pretty much win-win for the clubs. The loser is the long-term future of the England football team and development of English players who can't get into their club's first teams. especially when clubs are becoming increasingly ambivalent about international football. Liverpool don't want Suarez playing at the World Cup and risking his knee. Citeh must wince every time somebody tackles Aguero, and who can blame them when they are investing £100,000 a week in the player?

 

If you feel sorry for Hodgson now (and I do, even allowing for some of the mistakes he has made) what faces an England manager 10 years down the line?

 

You can only build a pyramid high if the base is broad and development of players is always a numbers game. It stands to reason that if fewer young English players are getting into squads populated foreign players courtesy of TV money, then the quality of England players available to any manager is going to be lessened. We're seeing that now after 20 years or so of the Premier League. What's it going to be like over the next 20?

 

Most people agree our big problems at the moment are at the heart of our defence, and a lack of a predatory goalscorer. But do you see any of the next generation of English centre-backs currently plying their trade in the Premier League (Stones at Everton, perhaps). Where is our Luis Suarez?

 

It's easy to point the finger at the FA and tell them to do something about it, but what can they do? They are pretty much hamstrung, and at the behest of the clubs and the Premier League.

 

The only way I can see a sea-change is if the Premier League and its clubs are reigned in and forced to adopt a quota system, but that ain't going to happen. As a special shareholder in the PL, the FA are limited to veto power during the election of the chairman and chief executive and when new rules are adopted by the league, so the PL can effectively tell the FA to get lost.

 

We effectively have the England football team our system deserves. We don't have the collective and national mentality of, say the Germans. The DFB - not the clubs- still holds power in Germany and their view is that a successful national team benefits all domestic football. So the clubs work with the DFB towards producing a successful German team, knowing the trickle-down benefits.

 

Until Premier League clubs have their hand forced to realise that, the England team will suffer. Clubs will always be self-centred and as long as the hand that feeds them keeps lobbing a rich diet at them, they are not going to bite it.

 

Thats the crux of the PL predicament, and no, I dont think there is much they can do until they start installing Quota systems, and if that happens I think itll be a UEFA directive and not the FA.

 

From another side of the coin the FA dont really help themselves with footballer development, or, have not in the past. The introduction of the EPPP is a massive step forward and the NextGen series was a massive breath of fresh air (the latter not an FA initiative). But even from grassroots level we struggle, we simply do not have the level of able coaches that they have on the continent and most of that is the cost imposed by the course providers (of course governed by the FA)

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Thats the crux of the PL predicament, and no, I dont think there is much they can do until they start installing Quota systems, and if that happens I think itll be a UEFA directive and not the FA.

 

From another side of the coin the FA dont really help themselves with footballer development, or, have not in the past. The introduction of the EPPP is a massive step forward and the NextGen series was a massive breath of fresh air (the latter not an FA initiative). But even from grassroots level we struggle, we simply do not have the level of able coaches that they have on the continent and most of that is the cost imposed by the course providers (of course governed by the FA)

 

Just out of interest how did the England team do in the 80's? Hardly any foreign players then. Or the 90's when it was still relatively low? I remember really enjoying the 94 World Cup. Blaming the number of foreigners in our game is wrong as not all correlations are causal (although I don't actually think you'll find there is any correlation between England major competition performance and number of foreigners in out game).

 

The number of world class players we are producing is the problem, as they will nearly ALWAYS get through the system. The issue is we're not producing them at an early age.

[Smirking_Saint]

I can't help but agree with him, although being I Saints follower for many years I just can't see that Lambert or Shaw amongst others had their place in this 23. Should have taken Cole (always said that) and he should have taken a real winger instead of Lambert, doesn't really matter who, as long as he can get down a flank and past the defender.

Johnson showed them what to do eventually, imagine if we'd had a real winger doing that for 90 minutes. Spain left their wingers at home as well and look at the result. It's true that you can play without recognised wide men, but there you need better players in CM than Gerrard and Henderson because if you're going to throw your FBs forward a lot then the 2 CMs need to be rock solid...and fast. Still if Walcott and JRod weren't injured then I think England's campaign might have been better.

 

Exactly, the old rule of thumb is to spread an attack and get compact in defence, I am a massive advocate of that regardless how good you are on the ball as ball playing through the centre against organised opposition is a difficult and intricate way to play successfully and we are poor at it.

Like it or not England arent good enough, as much as he gets stick, Gerrards still arguably are best CM, and he needs major help in there due to his age. We arent good enough in attack and woefull at the back. Uraguay sucked in the middle last night and barely at all did we look to get around and inside, similar to Italy really.

 

But going back to Pearces post its spot on IMO, its a system adopted by the better club academies and certainly by the major nations. You get a team playing together as much as possible with similar systems so they adopt it, otherwise it looks like the cluster**** we have seen so often. Spain, germany even Chile dont do this by accident ! Its coached until its instinct.

 

As a coach myself I can relate how hard this must be to coach at National level with littke time in reality to integrate systems into instinct which IMO is why I think you get players called up in groups (man utd, liverpool, saints etc) as they already are used to each other and play a similar way to how the coach wants them too.

 

Basically what Im saying is because of this lack of time you need players playing regularly together utilising similar systems as often as possible from young levels up in order for them to play with organisation and realustically dropping out like flies of the youth tournaments is massively damaging, atleast as much as that of the PL influence on young englishmen

[Bearsy]

I would make it so like a third of the TV money is paid dependant on how many appearances U23 English bros make in ur first team.

[Mystic Force]

I think they just didnt have a coherent plan. What is the deal with all the fowards and no strikers. There was often no one in the box, and with no one in the box there was no one too pass or cross too, or to pull away the defenders for the fowards to have space.

[Window Cleaner]

I would make it so like a third of the TV money is paid dependant on how many appearances U23 English bros make in ur first team.

 

 

perhaps we need to get a few of our younger players out of the PL and into other major championships. Now I'd not know this for certain but we (England that is, not my own particular favourites) must be one of the few participating sides at this WC where all of the players are drawn from the same national championship. Leads to a lack of variety of experience, playing styles etc.

[angelman]

Regardless of whether we produce world class players or not, why would the PL will change anything that might harm it's own business for the sake of improving the national team?

[Window Cleaner]

I think they just didnt have a coherent plan. What is the deal with all the fowards and no strikers. There was often no one in the box, and with no one in the box there was no one too pass or cross too, or to pull away the defenders for the fowards to have space.

 

Well I think there's a dearth of real strikers in England, the very fact that Lambert is in the group tells you that. Then again Walcott and JRod are injured, they are real strikers,f'in

fast as well. However you'd expect Sturridge to be a bit more adept than he has been to date, perhaps he's just sh@gged out. Perhaps Wickham will finally kick on before the next major tournament.

[Batman]

He should actually pick a players on merit

 

Sticking with players who got you there that are way off form and picking subs from united has to stop

[Batman]

What peed me off was Gerard saying we were too naive.

 

Really???

Not as if the football they play at club level is of back water variety.

[OldNick]

Until we have coaches teaching the kids at avery young age how to pass and move we will be where we are forever. It's still all about the lads who develop early who kick the s### out of the little ones, that stops those losing I interest and coming through. The bigger lads then get into the school teams and are then take. By the clubs.

Proper competitive football should not be allowed until the kids are 12.in the meanwhile the youngsters should play just passing and skill games.

[CB Saint]

What peed me off was Gerard saying we were too naive.

 

Really???

Not as if the football they play at club level is of back water variety.

 

How many fecking caps do you need before you "get" international football?

[Polaroid Saint]

Until we have coaches teaching the kids at avery young age how to pass and move we will be where we are forever. It's still all about the lads who develop early who kick the s### out of the little ones, that stops those losing I interest and coming through. The bigger lads then get into the school teams and are then take. By the clubs.

Proper competitive football should not be allowed until the kids are 12.in the meanwhile the youngsters should play just passing and skill games.

 

The youngsters in the squad, and the current U21, now are the first generation to come through the development squads (Academies, now under the EPPP banner) . Give it time and give up on the old (centre of excellence) guard.

 

All the problems with traditional youth development are still there (the bigger kids are at advantage, over zealous parents AND some coaches) but the new coaching badges and guidelines are doing well to combat this. Fair play to the FA for getting it close to right.

 

Sort of related; Futsal is gaining a lot of ground in early player development too (3-13). Futsal is quite a different game and doesn't teach the intricacies of the 11aside game (more structured plays in futsal, less positional work etc) but does massively improve basic ball skills.

 

I know Saints own involvement with Futsal gets a little stick from some quartets (SimonClifford is a dirty word), but Saints DO use it extensively.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Time for Roy to blood all those who have not started yet v Costa Rica

[igsey]

Time for Roy to blood all those who have not started yet v Costa Rica

 

You know Frank Lampard will play.

[NickG]

Exactly, the old rule of thumb is to spread an attack and get compact in defence, I am a massive advocate of that regardless how good you are on the ball as ball playing through the centre against organised opposition is a difficult and intricate way to play successfully and we are poor at it.

Like it or not England arent good enough, as much as he gets stick, Gerrards still arguably are best CM, and he needs major help in there due to his age. We arent good enough in attack and woefull at the back. Uraguay sucked in the middle last night and barely at all did we look to get around and inside, similar to Italy really.

 

But going back to Pearces post its spot on IMO, its a system adopted by the better club academies and certainly by the major nations. You get a team playing together as much as possible with similar systems so they adopt it, otherwise it looks like the cluster**** we have seen so often. Spain, germany even Chile dont do this by accident ! Its coached until its instinct.

 

As a coach myself I can relate how hard this must be to coach at National level with littke time in reality to integrate systems into instinct which IMO is why I think you get players called up in groups (man utd, liverpool, saints etc) as they already are used to each other and play a similar way to how the coach wants them too.

 

Basically what Im saying is because of this lack of time you need players playing regularly together utilising similar systems as often as possible from young levels up in order for them to play with organisation and realustically dropping out like flies of the youth tournaments is massively damaging, atleast as much as that of the PL influence on young englishmen

 

I disagree. I wasn't confident prior to the tournament but having seen most games I honestly believe we have players who could have done well.

 

Our problem, and its not new, is the football establishment loving names, experience, clubs played for over ability and form.

 

Rooney and Gerrard are so over-rated its amazing.

Rooney when on form and a team plays around him, a decent top level prem player. No more. His main attribute was his early physical development meaning he was a bit of a prodigy & has already had a long career.

I'm not saying he is crap but is not world class when in form. When he isn't he is poor and upsets the balance of the side. I have no doubt we would have been better if Barkley, Lallana of Lambert played instead - in fact we looked better - as a team - when Lambert played behin d Wellbech or when Lallana replaced Rooney in friendlies - but Rooney must play.

 

Gerrard - was an excellent marauding midfielder. Was. Now, he is deteriorating but is Roy's captain, guaranteed a place - and plays a role not particularly well. A bit over a year ago I thought Schneiderlin outclassed him at St Marys. He was slow running, getting caught in possession, - funnily enough much like how he gave up prem title & world cup.

 

Glen Johnson - if he had been here this season he would have ended up third choice RB - behind two English players.

 

Baines. I was going with the popular thinking and agreeing that he should start, but was concerned that he isn't that special going forward and pretty weak defensively. He was 4th best fullback when we played Everton few weeks ago. I know we scored from own goals but how easily did Clyne beat him to get cross in? More than once. Haven't seen Shaw beaten like that all season. Then against Italy he did the same.

Danny Wellbech....??!!

 

Accepting keeper, CBs, and injuries, would this midfield/attack have done worse?

Clyne, same CBs, Shaw

Henderson/ Barkley

 

Sterling/Lambert/Lallana

Sturridge

 

Roy mentioned Clyne several times so wasn't far off squad.

 

Would other countries have stuck with Rooney and Gerrard?

 

Are the players of other countries that much better or do they just pick balanced team of players on form.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

I disagree. I wasn't confident prior to the tournament but having seen most games I honestly believe we have players who could have done well.

 

Our problem, and its not new, is the football establishment loving names, experience, clubs played for over ability and form.

 

Rooney and Gerrard are so over-rated its amazing.

Rooney when on form and a team plays around him, a decent top level prem player. No more. His main attribute was his early physical development meaning he was a bit of a prodigy & has already had a long career.

I'm not saying he is crap but is not world class when in form. When he isn't he is poor and upsets the balance of the side. I have no doubt we would have been better if Barkley, Lallana of Lambert played instead - in fact we looked better - as a team - when Lambert played behin d Wellbech or when Lallana replaced Rooney in friendlies - but Rooney must play.

 

Gerrard - was an excellent marauding midfielder. Was. Now, he is deteriorating but is Roy's captain, guaranteed a place - and plays a role not particularly well. A bit over a year ago I thought Schneiderlin outclassed him at St Marys. He was slow running, getting caught in possession, - funnily enough much like how he gave up prem title & world cup.

 

Glen Johnson - if he had been here this season he would have ended up third choice RB - behind two English players.

 

Baines. I was going with the popular thinking and agreeing that he should start, but was concerned that he isn't that special going forward and pretty weak defensively. He was 4th best fullback when we played Everton few weeks ago. I know we scored from own goals but how easily did Clyne beat him to get cross in? More than once. Haven't seen Shaw beaten like that all season. Then against Italy he did the same.

Danny Wellbech....??!!

 

Accepting keeper, CBs, and injuries, would this midfield/attack have done worse?

Clyne, same CBs, Shaw

Henderson/ Barkley

 

Sterling/Lambert/Lallana

Sturridge

 

Roy mentioned Clyne several times so wasn't far off squad.

 

Would other countries have stuck with Rooney and Gerrard?

 

Are the players of other countries that much better or do they just pick balanced team of players on form.

 

Fair and reasoned post - and one I agree with - which is a nice thing to say considering we often do not see eye to eye!

[Leicestersaint]

Hodgson is so tactically inept.

[Shroppie]

I disagree. I wasn't confident prior to the tournament but having seen most games I honestly believe we have players who could have done well.

 

Our problem, and its not new, is the football establishment loving names, experience, clubs played for over ability and form.

 

Rooney and Gerrard are so over-rated its amazing.

Rooney when on form and a team plays around him, a decent top level prem player. No more. His main attribute was his early physical development meaning he was a bit of a prodigy & has already had a long career.

I'm not saying he is crap but is not world class when in form. When he isn't he is poor and upsets the balance of the side. I have no doubt we would have been better if Barkley, Lallana of Lambert played instead - in fact we looked better - as a team - when Lambert played behin d Wellbech or when Lallana replaced Rooney in friendlies - but Rooney must play.

 

Gerrard - was an excellent marauding midfielder. Was. Now, he is deteriorating but is Roy's captain, guaranteed a place - and plays a role not particularly well. A bit over a year ago I thought Schneiderlin outclassed him at St Marys. He was slow running, getting caught in possession, - funnily enough much like how he gave up prem title & world cup.

 

Glen Johnson - if he had been here this season he would have ended up third choice RB - behind two English players.

 

Baines. I was going with the popular thinking and agreeing that he should start, but was concerned that he isn't that special going forward and pretty weak defensively. He was 4th best fullback when we played Everton few weeks ago. I know we scored from own goals but how easily did Clyne beat him to get cross in? More than once. Haven't seen Shaw beaten like that all season. Then against Italy he did the same.

Danny Wellbech....??!!

 

Accepting keeper, CBs, and injuries, would this midfield/attack have done worse?

Clyne, same CBs, Shaw

Henderson/ Barkley

 

Sterling/Lambert/Lallana

Sturridge

 

Roy mentioned Clyne several times so wasn't far off squad.

 

Would other countries have stuck with Rooney and Gerrard?

 

Are the players of other countries that much better or do they just pick balanced team of players on form.

Well argued and I agree. But would perhaps give Cork a place too

 

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[SarniaSaint]

Well argued and I agree. But would perhaps give Cork a place too

 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

 

Can't give Cork a place he don't play for the so called BIG CLUB that's why the likes of Cleverly get caps. You think that Wellbeck would be there if he played for say Villa?

 

LOLZ

[bpsaint]

Time for Roy to blood all those who have not started yet v Costa Rica

 

I'd hope so, but there'd be some serious questions to answer if Woy brings in the likes of Lallana, Shaw,and Barkley from the start and they absolute batter Costa Rica.

[OldNick]

I'd hope so, but there'd be some serious questions to answer if Woy brings in the likes of Lallana, Shaw,and Barkley from the start and they absolute batter Costa Rica.

We. Couldn't batter a piece of cod. We need a forum team to take them on lol

[bazza]

Just on the quotas issue, hypothetically, if the UK was to withdraw from the EU could a quota system be enforced?

[OldNick]

Just on the quotas issue, hypothetically, if the UK was to withdraw from the EU could a quota system be enforced?

The fact is since 1966 we won nothing and we had no foreign footballers then , so I don't think it is that problem. It is the crude, long ball, work rate, and get stuck into him nature that is a must for the kids from a young age. Any kid with skill gets it kicked out of him. I recall on the Saint radio when a former Saints player was on talking about kids football and how he said there was a young lad playing well and he wanted the opposition to kick him out of the game! I did phone and tell him he should not be near kids football. That attitude has killed our football, the 'it's a working class game' means that a lot of low mentality coaches run teams and we never have the finer parts of the game tuned up. To stand on the sidelines and hear the parents screaming for their kid to kick him or worse is not how you breed intelligent and skilful footballers.

[redkeith]

England will never improve until the management and the media learn that there is more to the game than running at 100 mph, preferably with the ball.

 

Wingers who are fast, but with no end product are preferred to more skilful, slower alternatives ( Lennon, Sterling, Townsend v Le Tissier, Llallana ) .

 

Crucially England always go for a central midfield that gets up and down the park, rather than include a proper defensive midfielder, unlike any other country at the world cup. Saints are very lucky to have 3 good defensive midfielders in Cork, Morgan and Big Vic, but they still get criticised in many quarters for passing sideways.

 

I would much prefer a proper DM such as Cork or Barry in the side than playing Gerrard there, just because he is Captain and so has to play.

 

Comparing Gerrard to Pirlo is nonsense, as Italy play Pirlo in front of their DM's not as the main shield for their defence.

[verlaine1979]

Comparing Gerrard to Pirlo is nonsense, as Italy play Pirlo in front of their DM's not as the main shield for their defence.

 

It's nonsense even if you just compare the way they both run. Pirlo is older, but nimble - he's constantly moving to find pockets of space in which to receive the ball. Gerrard lumbers about, occasionally working up the momentum to have a burst forward, but mostly picking up the ball just off the back four and then whacking in into the attacking third so he doesn't have to run. I suspect the media decided he was playing the 'Pirlo role' merely by virtue of the fact that Gerrard is old and a decent (if over-confident) long-range passer of the ball.

[lickierambert]

Do you know what I kept thinking throughout this game? England could really do with Schneiderlin. I know he's french, but someone as a 'stopper' who then calmly distributes the ball is a heck of a lot better than the cowardly, quarterback Gerrard. Schneiderlin would have stopped the first goal at it's source, before it got to Cavani. Watching England has, once again, made me appreciate what we have at Saints even more.

[SaintRobbie]

England as not a team. They are a collection of players. Some good, some past it.

 

Simple. Play as a team and you can win a World Cup. Lets face it the standard of the best games at international tournaments are no where near as high as the Premier League - and I would suggest most Championship sides would beat Brazil.

 

Same players.

 

So, the only thing from me for Dyke and Woy is how do you make England train and play as a team? More sessions? Training camps? Or do you just encourage Liverpool to buy all the England players and then play Liverpool?

[Window Cleaner]

Do you know what I kept thinking throughout this game? England could really do with Schneiderlin. I know he's french, but someone as a 'stopper' who then calmly distributes the ball is a heck of a lot better than the cowardly, quarterback Gerrard. Schneiderlin would have stopped the first goal at it's source, before it got to Cavani. Watching England has, once again, made me appreciate what we have at Saints even more.

 

 

But he's not English, England do not develop players of the calibre of Morgan or Cabaye and probably not even Mavuba or Gonalons. These lads don't need a partner, they can "tenir la baraque" all by themselves, that's why Morgan doesn't really like playing with Wanyama. France's system is basically 4-1-2-3 with one holding MF and 2 powerhouses in front of him coupled with 3 out and out attacking players who aren't expected to track back too far, just defend at corners and free-kicks and in their respective zones. If England want to adopt that system then they'd have to ditch Gerrand and put Phil Jones in his place and swap Henderson for a far more attacking player, if they even have one of sufficient calibre.

[sadoldgit]

Playing in these competitions is very different to playing in the Premiership week in week out. Just because you do it for your club doesnt mean to say you can do it for your country and the expectation that people like Clyne (who struggled to keep his place against Chambers) Cork or JRod (if fit) would have made much difference if any. We played a certain way which worked well in many games and not so well in other games. Playing against Italy, Uraguay, Chile, Australia, Costa Rica, Brazil etc presents a lot more different challenges to playing Man Utd, Stoke, Liverpool etc. You dont have a long season and transfer windows in which to get it right. A number of different managers (home grown and foreign) have failed to solve the problem of how to take our better players and to get them to perform on the World stage. Someone said that we won the WC in 1966 and there we few if any foreign players in Div 1 then. Correct but football have moved on big time since 1966 and the lack of English players getting a chance to play at the top level has diminished to the detriment of the national team. How many quality Englisg centre halves does Roy have to choose from now? How many quality English strikers? The quality for Championship football is so much better now because players who would be playing for Chelsea, City United etc and now playing in the old Div 2. A few get the opportunity to step up but not many because we charge stupid money for any potential English talent (£27m for Shaw at 18?). Now that Gerrard is past his best at this level we have NO World class players in our squad and no one coming through who looks like they can step up at this level. It is hard to see England doing well in any cup competion for some time to come.

[Batman]

All well and good soggy. How many quality centre halves have Costa Rica got to choose from? Yet they are through with a game to spare

 

Would you see john bosejour who plays in the championship being a star in our side? No, yet he is impressive with chile..

 

It is because their managers have a clear plan. How come they can have their styles yet we can't and we say our players are not good enough.

 

Would Bryan Ruiz get in the England team ahead of Sturridge? I don't think so either

[sadoldgit]

I am talking about winning consistantly. Greece pulled it off once but these teams get some good results then fade. I am talking about the consistency that Spain or the Germans have built up not just being a 5 minute wonder.

[Batman]

I am talking about winning consistantly. Greece pulled it off once but these teams get some good results then fade. I am talking about the consistency that Spain or the Germans have built up not just being a 5 minute wonder.

 

I think we have more to worry about winning consistently. We are on the fast track to never being a seed at the World Cup again. And times likes this will happen more and more as we struggle

 

Spain, Germany and the likes if Belgium and even France before all of them. Litterally ripped up everything and started again. Had a defined system they wanted all their national sides to play and pushes players to fit that through.

 

We seem hell bent of ensuring Rooney and Sturridge play together, lampard and Gerard before that. It's all short termism

[phillysaint]

maybe its got something to do with us fielding 4 teams in International competition instead of 1 like everyone else. can't help thinking that having Bale would have helped.

[derry]

I get the feeling that Roy Hodgson doesn't really believe in a way to play. As 4-4-2 is now deemed out of date he seems lost. If you play 4-2-3-1 you don't play it like England did. The 2 are defensive the fullbacks attack wide the front four interchange and the ball gets passed. England played the 2 off the cuff the front 4 tried to run with the ball the full backs pushed up and the 2 left the central defenders exposed and Baines just stood and watched while Suarez dropped off Jagielka. The moves that entailed passing quickly ended in goals.

[CB Saint]

Can we unsticky this thread. I am trying to expunge the game from my memory and this constant reminder is not helping

[Bearsy]

Well argued and I agree. But would perhaps give Cork a place too

 

It ur talking bout someone to play the 2 in a 4-2-3-1 there's no doubt in my mind Cork plays that role better than Gerrard of Henderson. I mean, they're better players overall cos they have ability to get forward & make things happen, but f*cking hell Roy, that ain't the job ur asking them to do!

[david in sweden]

Time for Roy to blood all those who have not started yet v Costa Rica

 

absolutely!

it'd be crime to think that now we are out of the competition that players should go home and have to tell their families that went to Brazil but didn't get a single minute in a game.

 

The Costa Rica match is now nothing more than a friendly game being played away, and a chance for the "subs." to get a run-out ....now that the " first-teamers " failed so miserably.

 

If we win it will prove that the faith endowed in the Liverpool / Manchester gang was totally misplaced.

[Cabrone]

They say that the biggest difference between a championship team and a prem one is the finishing, a championship club can often match a premiership one in defence and midfield but will generally lose because the premiership team has strikers that need less chances.

 

The same applies at international level, we played Italy and when Balotelli got his one good chance he buried it. England had several decent chances and spurned them, Rooney missing a particularly good opportunity.

 

Against Uruguay Suarez got a couple of opportunities and buried them, Rooney had a header infront of the goal and hit the post. That's the difference between losing and drawing\winning.

 

We never go far because we never have the absolute cutting edge that the top teams do, Van Persie and Robben are banging them in for the Dutch, Suarez we all know about, Messi is putting his chances away, Muller has been on target whilst England spurn their opportunities.

 

You can argue about tactics all day long but if you don't have a razor sharp striker up front and the other lot do the chance are that you will lose. When you need several opportunities to score they just need one.

 

IMO we've never really had that special striker, Owen was probably the closest, Lineker was very good and Shearer whilst magnificent in the prem was a bit subdued at international level. Until we get one we'll always get outdone by the best.

[Batman]

They say that the biggest difference between a championship team and a prem one is the finishing, a championship club can often match a premiership one in defence and midfield but will generally lose because the premiership team has strikers that need less chances.

 

The same applies at international level, we played Italy and when Balotelli got his one good chance he buried it. England had several decent chances and spurned them, Rooney missing a particularly good opportunity.

 

Against Uruguay Suarez got a couple of opportunities and buried them, Rooney had a header infront of the goal and hit the post. That's the difference between losing and drawing\winning.

 

We never go far because we never have the absolute cutting edge that the top teams do, Van Persie and Robben are banging them in for the Dutch, Suarez we all know about, Messi is putting his chances away, Muller has been on target whilst England spurn their opportunities.

 

You can argue about tactics all day long but if you don't have a razor sharp striker up front and the other lot do the chance are that you will lose. When you need several opportunities to score they just need one.

 

IMO we've never really had that special striker, Owen was probably the closest, Lineker was very good and Shearer whilst magnificent in the prem was a bit subdued at international level. Until we get one we'll always get outdone by the best.

 

Rooney is world class don't you know.

Enough to warrant £300k a week

[alpine_saint]

They say that the biggest difference between a championship team and a prem one is the finishing, a championship club can often match a premiership one in defence and midfield but will generally lose because the premiership team has strikers that need less chances.

 

The same applies at international level, we played Italy and when Balotelli got his one good chance he buried it. England had several decent chances and spurned them, Rooney missing a particularly good opportunity.

 

Against Uruguay Suarez got a couple of opportunities and buried them, Rooney had a header infront of the goal and hit the post. That's the difference between losing and drawing\winning.

 

We never go far because we never have the absolute cutting edge that the top teams do, Van Persie and Robben are banging them in for the Dutch, Suarez we all know about, Messi is putting his chances away, Muller has been on target whilst England spurn their opportunities.

 

You can argue about tactics all day long but if you don't have a razor sharp striker up front and the other lot do the chance are that you will lose. When you need several opportunities to score they just need one.

 

IMO we've never really had that special striker, Owen was probably the closest, Lineker was very good and Shearer whilst magnificent in the prem was a bit subdued at international level. Until we get one we'll always get outdone by the best.

 

Rickie Lambert languishing on the bench for 177 of the 180mins we've played so far........

[CB Fry]

Rickie Lambert languishing on the bench for 177 of the 180mins we've played so far........

Who isn't a world class striker either, not by any stretch of anyone's imagination.

[aintforever]

Our current England squad is the worst I have ever seen, whilst Lambert did well for Saints he is nowhere near the class of the other top strikers at the World Cup. I wasn't long ago when players like Ian Wright and Le Tiss were banging in 25 goals a season and couldn't get in the squad, how many did Lambert get - 14? The fact that he is in the squad shows how weak we are.

 

However, it is the manager's job to get the best our of the players available and Woy has clearly failed at that. Costa Rica have qualified easily against he teams we have lost to so I would be happy to see him sacked.

[angelman]

When was the last time we had a world class striker, who would be good enough to grace any team in the world (if you know what I mean)? I guess that Lineker might, after all he won the golden boot, but even then......Shearer? Apart from that, we have had good ones, but not world class ones. Give Suarez his due, he can make things out of nothing as well as taking his chances as and when they come.

[S-Clarke]

When was the last time we had a world class striker, who would be good enough to grace any team in the world (if you know what I mean)? I guess that Lineker might, after all he won the golden boot, but even then......Shearer? Apart from that, we have had good ones, but not world class ones. Give Suarez his due, he can make things out of nothing as well as taking his chances as and when they come.

 

Owen at his peak, 98-2002 was one of the best strikers in Europe. He'd have got into a lot of international sides during that time IMO. Was always a big fan of Owen, but injuries just ruined him

[JoeShmoe]

I get the feeling that Roy Hodgson doesn't really believe in a way to play. As 4-4-2 is now deemed out of date he seems lost. If you play 4-2-3-1 you don't play it like England did. The 2 are defensive the fullbacks attack wide the front four interchange and the ball gets passed. England played the 2 off the cuff the front 4 tried to run with the ball the full backs pushed up and the 2 left the central defenders exposed and Baines just stood and watched while Suarez dropped off Jagielka. The moves that entailed passing quickly ended in goals.

 

This, and the front 4 have to press as Liverpool and Saints do in that system, the players looked lost to me, like they weren't quite sure what sort of game they were supposed to play. Gerrard was exposed all season as a DM who hasn't got the legs or strength to sit in front of a back 4

[Doctoroncall]

I get the feeling that Roy Hodgson doesn't really believe in a way to play. As 4-4-2 is now deemed out of date he seems lost. If you play 4-2-3-1 you don't play it like England did. The 2 are defensive the fullbacks attack wide the front four interchange and the ball gets passed. England played the 2 off the cuff the front 4 tried to run with the ball the full backs pushed up and the 2 left the central defenders exposed and Baines just stood and watched while Suarez dropped off Jagielka. The moves that entailed passing quickly ended in goals.

 

Im not convince, I think Roy knows how to play the game, it's getting the players to do it. I don't think some of the players understand and seem a bit lost lost or don't buy into it. This is why it's important to have the right set of players rather than pick the best eleven.

[sadoldgit]

I think we have more to worry about winning consistently. We are on the fast track to never being a seed at the World Cup again. And times likes this will happen more and more as we struggle

 

Spain, Germany and the likes if Belgium and even France before all of them. Litterally ripped up everything and started again. Had a defined system they wanted all their national sides to play and pushes players to fit that through.

 

We seem hell bent of ensuring Rooney and Sturridge play together, lampard and Gerard before that. It's all short termism

 

Lampard and Gerrard in their prime were quaility and I am sure most Prem managers would hve loved them in their squad and would have found a way to play them togther. Many teams would love to pair Rooney and Sturridge too. How many International teams leave out their best players? There has been a lot of talk about playing Ronney "out of position" on the left. He has played their plenty of times for his club so it is not exactly new to him. Roy also made the point that he wanted players to interchange.

 

We are all deeply disappointed (apart from Alpine of course) but the fact is that we didnt play badly against Italy and played well in patches against Uruguay. Both of these are quality teams and very experienced in tournaments. This has been a very tough group and we were told at the start that with no chance of winning the WC we should use this as a stepping stone for the European Championship. Roy has started to bring through youth but not as quickly as some would have wanted. If he had of played more of them from the start would we have been any better off now? We will never know but lets not kid ourselves that it was going to be a cake walk getting out of the group stage with the quality of opposition we faced no matter what team we put out. Italy and Uruguay have both put in a poor performance each and I would argue that England have at least put in two performances that with a bit more luck would have gone our way.

 

You are 100% right to be worried about our seeding and we are clearly slipping back further. To end up in groups with two stronger teams each time is a problem as we have found this time round.