Reasons for sellling our Crown Jewels.....

[david in sweden]

.....the likes of Shaw and Lallana....and even Lovren. It's only the money. but also provides good capital if we are to sign a better class of international.

 

For a start, just those two/three potential transfers might bring in £50-60 million....which isn't the sort of easy decision you can reasonably make over a pint in your local.

 

Their stock may never be higher. All three have had very good seasons ....age is on their side...and with them also going to a World Cup ....it's difficult to see us saying NO!

 

If they are to stay (persuaded by a new (as yet unseen) managerial team, then we could go on from strength to strength.

 

Replacements?

 

.....well Saints homepage said Matt Targett was (originally) rated above Luke Shaw, but wasn't in the right place at the right time and had an injury...just when Shaw came on strongly.

 

We've seen a quick glimpse of a few others - who didn't look entirely out of place, and if we're looking to our Academy as an ongoing breeding ground (and not one that was " lucky enough" to have a handful of players in the same generation who just came good at the same time)....then we'll need more faith in the system to continue producing them.

 

Personally?......I'd like to see them all stay for another 5 years.....but it will make life much harder for those newer recruits to get a look-in, or expect to get regular game-time.

 

The next World Cup is another 4 years away - what then? ......Age may still be on their side, but will they be as a good - or better.

Edited 15 June, 2014 by david in sweden

[Wrensup]

Where you going with this?

[Saint Charlie]

Targett has never, ever been rated above Shaw by anyone who knows what they are on about.

 

Reason for selling Crown Jewels is because they get seduced by the prospect of Champions League football and more money.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I thought the board were asset stripping?

[Red]

Much as I would like all of our main team to stay - I do not anyone who does not want to be here or thinks they are too good for Saints. I think both AL and LS are learning that they are not as good as they might like to believe (neither starting or likely to for England). I am with David in Sweden in that if we spend ALL of the incoming monies on new, young, exciting and up coming players (plus maybe 1 or 2 experienced) then we stand a great chance of improving the team overall.

 

As DiS says our stars might have peaked and may not get any better, so let them go and warm the benches of a CL team, while we build the next set of prodigies :-)

[david in sweden]

Targett has never, ever been rated above Shaw by anyone who knows what they are on about.

 

Reason for selling Crown Jewels is because they get seduced by the prospect of Champions League football and more money.

 

 

 

I wish I could quote you where I read the quote, but I can't find it... but it related to an item about Englands latest U19/21 ..and I think and said that Targett was " a better prospect at 16 ..." but got injured?

 

Had Shaw not been SO outstanding this last season, I think we'd have seen one or two other candidates for the LB spot getting an outing.....but it's purely hypothetical as we've only seen Luke in that role.

[david in sweden]

Where you going with this?

philosophising only .....I think I stated my preference, but I always like to have a viable Plan B in every situation......

[SaintSteve]

Where you going with this?

 

Nowhere.. there is no logical reason for selling your best players when you're trying to move forwards in the EPL.

[david in sweden]

when I wrote the OP , I didn't expect to be so close to the truth ....I wonder what RK has in store for us?

[saintbob40]

The catalyst for all this was Cortese being reined in. He resigned and this left a huge power vacuum and lack of a sense of direction within the club. That then destabilised Mopo. He the left , leaving an uncommunicative ( to the players that is) and disliked Les Reed .

 

Cause and effect really but the cause came from Ms Liebherr bottling it in the first place.

[hypochondriac]

I think I would have been more comfortable had we appointed a respected ceo like John Williams. I was pretty disappointed when we chose a complete novice and just les reed as the football person who it is rumoured is disliked by many of the players.

[Whitey Grandad]

Players come and go all over the world. Sometimes you sell an asset in order to buy something more appropriate.

[Professor]

The Board have said all the right things. Les Reed's interview was very positive, as was Kruguer's, less convincing, earlier interview. Players would not be sold unless it was in the club's best interests. Koeman's appointment should be expected to make a difference and he would seek to convince players to stay. But are events reflective of what was said, with three players (so far), leaving before Koeman is behind his office desk? Other clubs have had players who have wanted to leave while still having years on their contracts, Suarez and Rooney last year both reported as wanting to move on but their clubs refused.

 

If the Board have decided that the money is better than the players, they should be planning to sign players who are as good or better than what we have lost. But any signing, especially from outside the Premier League, is a risk as we've seen occasionally in the past. Much as I liked what Les Reed said, it doesn't sit comfortably with selling the crown jewels so quickly. There must be thousands of fans who now regard the club management with a degree of suspicion and there are two things that could change that for the better. (1) The signing of quality replacements and quickly; and (2), in the longer term, whether new signings actually perform as needed.

 

To that there is just one other possibility. That maybe Pochettino wasn't quite the charismatic coach getting the very best out of the squad that he was reputed to be. Maybe Koeman can do at least the same or even better. The heart hopes that is the case, the head says different.

[sammysaint]

Meh, i think its fine to sell our assets now we have a new manager he can buy replacements and add one or two for squad depth, then he put his stamp on the squad, MoPo never really played wingers or with pace, Koeman may prefer this, i know i do after seeing us lose to Cardiff and others for lacking that counter attacking.

[david in sweden]

the fact remains that Ronald Koeman now has a dream opportunity. He can choose / buy his own team.

 

Here is a class international manager with an impressive playing career of his own, moving to a Prem. League side with a seemingly enormous transfer budget, but without the burden of having to play the established " stars " and an opportunity for him to create his own playing squad from scratch.

 

Those players " who stay " are the nucleus of the squad, and the chance to introduce the next generation Academy graduates, alongside his own choice of players he knows already.

 

If RK makes the right judgments ....we could be in for the most radical change in the last 40 years - at least since Lawrie Mc Menemy's arrival.

Edited 29 June, 2014 by david in sweden

[Sheaf Saint]

The catalyst for all this was Cortese being reined in. He resigned and this left a huge power vacuum and lack of a sense of direction within the club. That then destabilised Mopo. He the left , leaving an uncommunicative ( to the players that is) and disliked Les Reed .

 

Cause and effect really but the cause came from Ms Liebherr bottling it in the first place.

 

Are you suggesting that in recognising that Cortese was spunking her money on a fool's errand and taking action to protect her investment she 'bottled it'?

 

Do you actually have any understanding of how business works?

[Saint Billy]

the fact remains that Ronald Koeman now has a dream opportunity. He can choose / buy his own team.

 

Here is a class international manager with an impressive playing career of his own, moving to a Prem. League side with a seemingly enormous transfer budget, but without the burden of having to play the established " stars " and an opportunity for him to create his own playing squad from scratch.

 

Those players " who stay " are the nucleus of the squad, and the chance to introduce the next generation Academy graduates, alongside his own choice of players he knows already.

 

If RK makes the right judgments ....we could be in for the most radical change in the last 40 years - at least since Lawrie Mc Menelmy's arrival.

Absolutely

[Window Cleaner]

The Board have said all the right things. Les Reed's interview was very positive, as was Kruguer's, less convincing, earlier interview. Players would not be sold unless it was in the club's best interests. Koeman's appointment should be expected to make a difference and he would seek to convince players to stay. But are events reflective of what was said, with three players (so far), leaving before Koeman is behind his office desk? Other clubs have had players who have wanted to leave while still having years on their contracts, Suarez and Rooney last year both reported as wanting to move on but their clubs refused.

 

If the Board have decided that the money is better than the players, they should be planning to sign players who are as good or better than what we have lost. But any signing, especially from outside the Premier League, is a risk as we've seen occasionally in the past. Much as I liked what Les Reed said, it doesn't sit comfortably with selling the crown jewels so quickly. There must be thousands of fans who now regard the club management with a degree of suspicion and there are two things that could change that for the better. (1) The signing of quality replacements and quickly; and (2), in the longer term, whether new signings actually perform as needed.

 

To that there is just one other possibility. That maybe Pochettino wasn't quite the charismatic coach getting the very best out of the squad that he was reputed to be. Maybe Koeman can do at least the same or even better. The heart hopes that is the case, the head says different.

 

The Board always say all the right things but then their actions tend to suggest otherwise.

[Saint Without a Halo]

The Board always say all the right things but then their actions tend to suggest otherwise.

 

This is my gripe better they stop playing the we are still progressing mularky and be honest about the ambition downgrade for the club that led undirectly toso many departures.

[revolution saint]

I really don't get this almost unbridled optimism amongst some people. We've sold our best players and look likely to sell Lovren and Schneiderlin - selling your best players doesn't make you better. Money in the bank doesn't make you better. Our ability to attract top players is not enhanced by selling our best players. So far there is nothing to suggest optimism except blind hope.

 

The managerial appointment is a gamble (as is any new player or manager) and there's no guarantee of success. He might turn out to be great or he might not - it's 50/50 for me and although he's been good in Holland that's about it. Let's hope he is. Any new players we sign will be an equal gamble - for those who blame the Osvaldo signing on Pochetinno then remember that an untried manager in Koeman *****ried as in the premier league and for us) will be probably doing the exact same thing. If he's not then we'll still be relying on the team that brought us Yoshida, Ramirez and Mayuka. Of course they might get another Lovren but don't expect all the signings to be like that. It's not easy to replace quality players - there are not a whole host of players better who want to come to us (and if there were they would probably skip us completely and sign for CL clubs).

 

Although this may seem an overly negative post it's not intended that way - just to point out that the likelihood is next season will be tough. I'm not arguing that player sales could have been prevented either - unfortunately we got caught with a good group who all felt it best to leave at the same time. Maybe we could have been stronger but it's a moot point - they've gone and I don't necessarily blame the board. In fact I don't really blame them for much except raising expectations a bit too much (and they have to do that to sell tickets).

 

So I guess it's really fan expectation I'm criticising here - there isn't a european Lallana waiting on every street corner, Koeman will do very well to be as good as Pochetinno but even if he is he faces a much sterner test than MP did. Our recent success has been built on stability not signings and with the exception of Lovren it's those players who have been here a while that have given us that success. Having a big bank balance and willing to spend it will not replicate that (IMO) - naturally you can feel free to argue any of these points but I'd challenge you to find any club in a major european league that sells ALL it's best players, changes it's manager and appoints someone unused to the country and league and equals it's success in their first season. Hopefully we don't end up too near the relegation area but it's a distinct possibility and to pretend otherwise is naive.

[CB Fry]

I really don't get this almost unbridled optimism amongst some people. We've sold our best players and look likely to sell Lovren and Schneiderlin - selling your best players doesn't make you better. Money in the bank doesn't make you better. Our ability to attract top players is not enhanced by selling our best players. So far there is nothing to suggest optimism except blind hope.

 

The managerial appointment is a gamble (as is any new player or manager) and there's no guarantee of success. He might turn out to be great or he might not - it's 50/50 for me and although he's been good in Holland that's about it. Let's hope he is. Any new players we sign will be an equal gamble - for those who blame the Osvaldo signing on Pochetinno then remember that an untried manager in Koeman *****ried as in the premier league and for us) will be probably doing the exact same thing. If he's not then we'll still be relying on the team that brought us Yoshida, Ramirez and Mayuka. Of course they might get another Lovren but don't expect all the signings to be like that. It's not easy to replace quality players - there are not a whole host of players better who want to come to us (and if there were they would probably skip us completely and sign for CL clubs).

 

Although this may seem an overly negative post it's not intended that way - just to point out that the likelihood is next season will be tough. I'm not arguing that player sales could have been prevented either - unfortunately we got caught with a good group who all felt it best to leave at the same time. Maybe we could have been stronger but it's a moot point - they've gone and I don't necessarily blame the board. In fact I don't really blame them for much except raising expectations a bit too much (and they have to do that to sell tickets).

 

So I guess it's really fan expectation I'm criticising here - there isn't a european Lallana waiting on every street corner, Koeman will do very well to be as good as Pochetinno but even if he is he faces a much sterner test than MP did. Our recent success has been built on stability not signings and with the exception of Lovren it's those players who have been here a while that have given us that success. Having a big bank balance and willing to spend it will not replicate that (IMO) - naturally you can feel free to argue any of these points but I'd challenge you to find any club in a major european league that sells ALL it's best players, changes it's manager and appoints someone unused to the country and league and equals it's success in their first season. Hopefully we don't end up too near the relegation area but it's a distinct possibility and to pretend otherwise is naive.

Not sure there is unbridled optimism.

 

Just effing lunatics pi ss ing the bed, and then some normal people who accept that when Manchester United come calling then players will want to go.

 

Koeman gets to create the next Southampton team. In the last twenty years we've had good to great Saints teams built by Bally, Strachan, Hoddle, Jones, Adkins, Pardew. Pochettino built an excellent team too. He's gone.

 

And we've had excellent players, from Richards to Killer, to Beattie and Pahars, from Oakley to Cork, from Svensson to Schneiderlin, from Niemi to Boruc. The current crop are just as transient and replaceable as the last lot.

 

We have a new manager. We'll get new players. Some of them will be dog sh it.

 

But one of them, maybe two, will be effing brilliant and come November we will love them like a new son. And off we go - the future starts now, we're finishing twelfth next season and I am going to f uck ing love it. Because we're going to Wembley too. Why not, we're managed by a cup expert.

 

But I'm not unbridled, just happily realistic. Get on it.

[Saint Fan CaM]

I really don't get this almost unbridled optimism amongst some people. We've sold our best players and look likely to sell Lovren and Schneiderlin - selling your best players doesn't make you better. Money in the bank doesn't make you better. Our ability to attract top players is not enhanced by selling our best players. So far there is nothing to suggest optimism except blind hope.

 

The managerial appointment is a gamble (as is any new player or manager) and there's no guarantee of success. He might turn out to be great or he might not - it's 50/50 for me and although he's been good in Holland that's about it. Let's hope he is. Any new players we sign will be an equal gamble - for those who blame the Osvaldo signing on Pochetinno then remember that an untried manager in Koeman *****ried as in the premier league and for us) will be probably doing the exact same thing. If he's not then we'll still be relying on the team that brought us Yoshida, Ramirez and Mayuka. Of course they might get another Lovren but don't expect all the signings to be like that. It's not easy to replace quality players - there are not a whole host of players better who want to come to us (and if there were they would probably skip us completely and sign for CL clubs).

 

Although this may seem an overly negative post it's not intended that way - just to point out that the likelihood is next season will be tough. I'm not arguing that player sales could have been prevented either - unfortunately we got caught with a good group who all felt it best to leave at the same time. Maybe we could have been stronger but it's a moot point - they've gone and I don't necessarily blame the board. In fact I don't really blame them for much except raising expectations a bit too much (and they have to do that to sell tickets).

 

So I guess it's really fan expectation I'm criticising here - there isn't a european Lallana waiting on every street corner, Koeman will do very well to be as good as Pochetinno but even if he is he faces a much sterner test than MP did. Our recent success has been built on stability not signings and with the exception of Lovren it's those players who have been here a while that have given us that success. Having a big bank balance and willing to spend it will not replicate that (IMO) - naturally you can feel free to argue any of these points but I'd challenge you to find any club in a major european league that sells ALL it's best players, changes it's manager and appoints someone unused to the country and league and equals it's success in their first season. Hopefully we don't end up too near the relegation area but it's a distinct possibility and to pretend otherwise is naive.

 

Top, top post.

[Saint Charlie]

Out of interest, why when someone points out that players will leave and then they subsequently do leave, is it bedwetting rather than realism?

Edited 30 June, 2014 by Saint Charlie

[S-Clarke]

Not sure there is unbridled optimism.

 

Just effing lunatics pi ss ing the bed, and then some normal people who accept that when Manchester United come calling then players will want to go.

 

Koeman gets to create the next Southampton team. In the last twenty years we've had good to great Saints teams built by Bally, Strachan, Hoddle, Jones, Adkins, Pardew. Pochettino built an excellent team too. He's gone.

 

And we've had excellent players, from Richards to Killer, to Beattie and Pahars, from Oakley to Cork, from Svensson to Schneiderlin, from Niemi to Boruc. The current crop are just as transient and replaceable as the last lot.

 

We have a new manager. We'll get new players. Some of them will be dog sh it.

 

But one of them, maybe two, will be effing brilliant and come November we will love them like a new son. And off we go - the future starts now, we're finishing twelfth next season and I am going to f uck ing love it. Because we're going to Wembley too. Why not, we're managed by a cup expert.

 

But I'm not unbridled, just happily realistic. Get on it.

 

Now this is a good post. Exactly how it is.

[CB Fry]

Out of interest, why when someone points out that players will leave and then they subsequently do leave, is it bedwetting rather than realism?

The bedwetting is

 

a) describing it as asset stripping

b) or a fire sale

c) or players leaving because they "don't believe in the vision of SFC" anymore, as opposed to it being MANCHESTER SODDING UNITED OFFERING ONE HUNDRED GRAND A WEEK

d) Pointless dumbery around "tell them all to fark off" and "it's £50m per leg or no deal"

e) Pointless dumbery around "let em rot in the reserves"

f) Pointless dumbery around how absolutely no player would ever want to leave to join Manchester sodding United if only Cortese was still here.

g) "Why is Les Reed the supreme power in Southampton these days?"

h) Something Les Reed something something Charlton Athletic something

i) And let's start pretending that Les Reed said we would spend all the money brought in plus our transfer budget by the end of August so we can go nicely apesh it when we've "only" spent forty million come September.

j) Disingenuously make out something like "why are people merely pointing out players are being sold being called bedwetters and not realists?"

 

Avoid a) to j) and no one ain't never calling you no bedwetter, squire.

Edited 30 June, 2014 by CB Fry

[Saint Charlie]

Thanks

[RonManager]

The bedwetting is

 

a) describing it as asset stripping

b) or a fire sale

c) or players leaving because they "don't believe in the vision of SFC" anymore, as opposed to it being MANCHESTER SODDING UNITED OFFERING ONE HUNDRED GRAND A WEEK

d) Pointless dumbery around "tell them all to fark off" and "it's £50m per leg or no deal"

e) Pointless dumbery around "let em rot in the reserves"

f) Pointless dumbery around how absolutely no player would ever want to leave to join Manchester sodding United if only Cortese was still here.

g) "Why is Les Reed the supreme power in Southampton these days?"

h) Something Les Reed something something Charlton Athletic something

i) And let's start pretending that Les Reed said we would spend all the money brought in plus our transfer budget by the end of August so we can go nicely apesh it when we've "only" spent forty million come September.

j) Disingenuously make out something like "why are people merely pointing out players are being sold being called bedwetters and not realists?"

 

Avoid a) to j) and no one ain't never calling you no bedwetter, squire.

 

I've just wet the bed.

 

Unfortunately it wasn't Saints related.

 

Nurse........Nurse.............NURSE.

[NickG]

Not sure there is unbridled optimism.

 

Just effing lunatics pi ss ing the bed, and then some normal people who accept that when Manchester United come calling then players will want to go.

 

Koeman gets to create the next Southampton team. In the last twenty years we've had good to great Saints teams built by Bally, Strachan, Hoddle, Jones, Adkins, Pardew. Pochettino built an excellent team too. He's gone.

 

And we've had excellent players, from Richards to Killer, to Beattie and Pahars, from Oakley to Cork, from Svensson to Schneiderlin, from Niemi to Boruc. The current crop are just as transient and replaceable as the last lot.

 

We have a new manager. We'll get new players. Some of them will be dog sh it.

 

But one of them, maybe two, will be effing brilliant and come November we will love them like a new son. And off we go - the future starts now, we're finishing twelfth next season and I am going to f uck ing love it. Because we're going to Wembley too. Why not, we're managed by a cup expert.

 

But I'm not unbridled, just happily realistic. Get on it.

Don't always agree but this says it how it is.

The bed wetting is the conspiracy theories of doom and gloom. When we start losing first team players to west ham, then maybe get concerned, all we have seen so far is players moving, for generous fees to teams well above us.

 

I'm just about over Danny Wallace and Steve Williams so I'm sure I can cope with these departures.

 

So to answer OP-

We are selling players because they are good enough for champions league, we can't offer it, club have negotiated good fees which means they feel the money can improve the side more than turning it down & sticking with squad.

For example, Lallana, Shaw and Lambert = £60m?

 

Tudic, Pelle and Kolo =£25m??

 

Replaced players and enough for Danny ings, a keeper, spare left back and centre back.

 

Risky but good chance better

[david in sweden]

Not sure there is unbridled optimism.

 

Just effing lunatics pi ss ing the bed, and then some normal people who accept that when Manchester United come calling then players will want to go.

 

Koeman gets to create the next Southampton team. In the last twenty years we've had good to great Saints teams built by Bally, Strachan, Hoddle, Jones, Adkins, Pardew. Pochettino built an excellent team too. He's gone.

 

And we've had excellent players, from Richards to Killer, to Beattie and Pahars, from Oakley to Cork, from Svensson to Schneiderlin, from Niemi to Boruc. The current crop are just as transient and replaceable as the last lot.

 

We have a new manager. We'll get new players. Some of them will be dog sh it.

 

But one of them, maybe two, will be effing brilliant and come November we will love them like a new son. And off we go - the future starts now, we're finishing twelfth next season and I am going to f uck ing love it. Because we're going to Wembley too. Why not, we're managed by a cup expert.

 

But I'm not unbridled, just happily realistic. Get on it.

 

good summary CB.

[pap]

It seems terribly depressing at first glance, but there are clubs much bigger than us that have exactly the same problems. Take Borussia Dortmund and Atletico Madrid as examples. Both operate business models which involve buying low and selling players on at a profit to reinvest. Atleti won the Spanish league this year, while Dortmund are one of the few teams remotely capable of taking on Bayern.

 

All about being able to identify and sign quality replacements.

[The9]

The bedwetting is

 

a) describing it as asset stripping

b) or a fire sale

c) or players leaving because they "don't believe in the vision of SFC" anymore, as opposed to it being MANCHESTER SODDING UNITED OFFERING ONE HUNDRED GRAND A WEEK

d) Pointless dumbery around "tell them all to fark off" and "it's £50m per leg or no deal"

e) Pointless dumbery around "let em rot in the reserves"

f) Pointless dumbery around how absolutely no player would ever want to leave to join Manchester sodding United if only Cortese was still here.

g) "Why is Les Reed the supreme power in Southampton these days?"

h) Something Les Reed something something Charlton Athletic something

i) And let's start pretending that Les Reed said we would spend all the money brought in plus our transfer budget by the end of August so we can go nicely apesh it when we've "only" spent forty million come September.

j) Disingenuously make out something like "why are people merely pointing out players are being sold being called bedwetters and not realists?"

 

Avoid a) to j) and no one ain't never calling you no bedwetter, squire.

 

Spot on. The misuse of the phrase "fire sale" in particular makes certain people look like complete morons, if the rest of their "I refuse to see anything other than the worst possible scenario" hasn't already done so.

 

You missed "panicked Lowe references when people talk about improving the squad" though - even though improving the squad is essential and can only be done by adding better players as opposed to just more players, which ended up being Lowe's downfall due to the kind of necessary financial prudence that hasn't exactly characterised the Liebherr Era.

 

Personally I hope we sign Neil McCann and Mikael Nilsson.

[angelman]

[video=youtube;_pk0vE-MM_g]

[Wurzel]

Not sure there is unbridled optimism.

 

Just effing lunatics pi ss ing the bed, and then some normal people who accept that when Manchester United come calling then players will want to go.

 

Koeman gets to create the next Southampton team. In the last twenty years we've had good to great Saints teams built by Bally, Strachan, Hoddle, Jones, Adkins, Pardew. Pochettino built an excellent team too. He's gone.

 

And we've had excellent players, from Richards to Killer, to Beattie and Pahars, from Oakley to Cork, from Svensson to Schneiderlin, from Niemi to Boruc. The current crop are just as transient and replaceable as the last lot.

 

We have a new manager. We'll get new players. Some of them will be dog sh it.

 

But one of them, maybe two, will be effing brilliant and come November we will love them like a new son. And off we go - the future starts now, we're finishing twelfth next season and I am going to f uck ing love it. Because we're going to Wembley too. Why not, we're managed by a cup expert.

 

But I'm not unbridled, just happily realistic. Get on it.

 

This. This. And this again.

Perfect summary.

[melmacian_saint]

Selling 1 out of 5 best performers is looking to improve.

 

Selling 3 and with an outlook of at least 2 more is not quite the same.