Apologists? Deafening silence tonight !

[Daren W]

OK, how and who can work on these people?

 

How do we start a campaign to have him removed and someone installed who will work on a minimal fee/performance basis to review the real numbers, slim down the squad to 22 REAL footballers, bring the fans back with a series of communications and heart-to-hearts to boost the finances and give the club a real chance of, first survival, and then a better plan in the summer of 2009?

 

Is the Trust now dead?

 

Are we totally impotetent?

 

With Lowe and Wilde in charge, the fans aren't important at all..

[Legod Third Coming]

With Lowe and Wilde in charge, the fans aren't important at all..

 

 

Lol I have corrected my spelling, can you do the same!!!!

[SW11_Saint]

When did he sack pearson?

 

I got no problem having a pop at lowe but I wish people would have a go at him for the right things.

I take your point, although it is rather pedantic.

 

Ok, Lowe 'removed him from his position', 'didn't renew his contract' - however you spin it, his tenure terminated at SFC as soon as Lowe took the reigns again. No doubt you will counter with the propoganda from the time put about by Lowe and his spin doctors that 'Pearson was more expensive than JP/Wotte'. Looking back, that might have been a massive false economy? I certainly think so.

 

What's that old saying again: "you pay peanuts; you get monkeys".

[Whitey Grandad]

No argument that Lowe's presence is divisive but we were hardly united when he was absent.

I was united when he wasn't here

[Dark Munster]

I liked Pearson. IMO the biggest asset he brought was that he seemed to motivate the players a bit after Burley. Even then it was close run thing with an experienced and expensive team. Strip out all those players and give him motivated but raw and inexperienced and in some cases not good enough youngsters, who knows whether he would have done better than JP this season.

 

We would know if Lowe hadn't forced him out, and replaced him with a couple of amateurs, for purely egoistic reasons. :mad:

[Frank's cousin]

Its all so very simple if all you believe that getting rid of Lowe is the answer to the footballing problems - If you really believe that with Lowe out of the equation and anybody else at the helm will resolve this - then by all means be in favour of administration, as at present that indeed does look like the only way you will get your wish.

 

I think though where many of the 'apologists' are always misunderstood is in the simple fact that whatever the opinions on Lowe - and the arguments are legendary and so ingrained its a pointless excercise to be honest - administration will bring a whole new set of problems - as those who believe lowe is the only thing 'holding us back' will surely appreciate, the impact of relegation and administration on the whole structure of the club that is being held together under such fragile condistions at the moment will change yet again - YES it will provide the circumstances for someone with a genuine love for the club to step in and build a new, but this will take both time and money - what timescales for regrowth do those in favour of administration believe will be acceptable to the vasy majority of fans? - especially as no one has truelly ever indicated they have the funds to rebuild the club.

 

I think most of even the most ardent 'apologists' recognise that things aint going according to plan - we have hope, that is true, afterall thats what being a fan is alllabout , the dreams and aspiration thing that makes us want to believe - but points on the board is what its all about when in a relegation scrap and now we are not even playing the pretty football anymore.... do we chuck it all in? do we give up on the plan? I dont have a problem with reviewing the situation and looking at better alternatives - thats life, but we do have VERY short memories - remember Redflaps? the best choice to keep us up - a real legend of the game? He came here and destroyed what little confidence and spirit the side had left.

 

It just shows that there are no guarrantees - its sport, and there is a logic in both argumnets - change before its too late, or stick at it and hope that it comes together? the continuity - afterall Its fair to say that those clubs with great success have stuck with their managers a long time, even through some very sticky patches and poor results?

 

The answer? I dont have a crystal ball - but right now its a given that the lottery of administration is probably the 'strategy' that has the biggest risk and the greatest unknown. That's why I am a so called 'apologist' - I do not believe administration is the answer to our problems - it might get rid of the devil, but we would undoubtedly be stuck in Hell, upside down in a tank of Sh!te for the forseeable, as the only angel trying to rescue us is a local tin pot who has borrowed 2 mil from 20 mates tries in vain to provide a ladder - which is way too short and cant be bridged by the 'bleeding red and white' fan friend'y platitudes. Lowe out or in is one debate - but administration as the tool to get rid is so misguided.

[um pahars]

Its all so very simple if all you believe that getting rid of Lowe is the answer to the footballing problems

 

Getting rid of Lowe may not solve all of the problems we are now faced with, but I think it's safe to say getting Lowe in certainly ratcheted up our problems.

 

His first major decision in firing Pearson and hiring Poortvliet is proving to be another major fccukc up, up there with the appointment of Wigley in that relegation season.

[Snowballs2]

Its all so very simple if all you believe that getting rid of Lowe is the answer to the footballing problems - If you really believe that with Lowe out of the equation and anybody else at the helm will resolve this - then by all means be in favour of administration, as at present that indeed does look like the only way you will get your wish.

 

I think though where many of the 'apologists' are always misunderstood is in the simple fact that whatever the opinions on Lowe - and the arguments are legendary and so ingrained its a pointless excercise to be honest - administration will bring a whole new set of problems - as those who believe lowe is the only thing 'holding us back' will surely appreciate, the impact of relegation and administration on the whole structure of the club that is being held together under such fragile condistions at the moment will change yet again - YES it will provide the circumstances for someone with a genuine love for the club to step in and build a new, but this will take both time and money - what timescales for regrowth do those in favour of administration believe will be acceptable to the vasy majority of fans? - especially as no one has truelly ever indicated they have the funds to rebuild the club.

 

I think most of even the most ardent 'apologists' recognise that things aint going according to plan - we have hope, that is true, afterall thats what being a fan is alllabout , the dreams and aspiration thing that makes us want to believe - but points on the board is what its all about when in a relegation scrap and now we are not even playing the pretty football anymore.... do we chuck it all in? do we give up on the plan? I dont have a problem with reviewing the situation and looking at better alternatives - thats life, but we do have VERY short memories - remember Redflaps? the best choice to keep us up - a real legend of the game? He came here and destroyed what little confidence and spirit the side had left.

 

It just shows that there are no guarrantees - its sport, and there is a logic in both argumnets - change before its too late, or stick at it and hope that it comes together? the continuity - afterall Its fair to say that those clubs with great success have stuck with their managers a long time, even through some very sticky patches and poor results?

 

The answer? I dont have a crystal ball - but right now its a given that the lottery of administration is probably the 'strategy' that has the biggest risk and the greatest unknown. That's why I am a so called 'apologist' - I do not believe administration is the answer to our problems - it might get rid of the devil, but we would undoubtedly be stuck in Hell, upside down in a tank of Sh!te for the forseeable, as the only angel trying to rescue us is a local tin pot who has borrowed 2 mil from 20 mates tries in vain to provide a ladder - which is way too short and cant be bridged by the 'bleeding red and white' fan friend'y platitudes. Lowe out or in is one debate - but administration as the tool to get rid is so misguided.

 

 

 

We are all entitled to our views , I honestly believe that the only way forward is to get Lowe out of the club, this includes getting the shares out of his hands.

Only then will the divisiveness begin to subside.

Never in the history of Saints has one man done so much to damage the club, and been allowed to return to finish the job.

We need administration like a hole in the head, but, if it means the re birth of our club without Lowe and Wilde then yes, bring it on NOW

[sadoldgit]

Apologists or realsists?

 

If Crouch and Pearson were at the helm when we nearly went down last year. Realistcally who can say we would not be in exactly the same siuation now, given that we had more experienced players last season?

Would the likes of Um Pahars and Alpine be slagging off Crouch and Pearson now or would they be the "apologists"??

At the end of last season things were not better than they are now, but those with certain agendas were peddling their same old mantras.

3 wins in 13 with experienced pros and you reckon he would do better with this squad? Or has your nephew logged on under your name again Steve?

[Thedelldays]

Apologists or realsists?

 

If Crouch and Pearson were at the helm when we nearly went down last year. Realistcally who can say we would not be in exactly the same siuation now, given that we had more experienced players last season?

Would the likes of Um Pahars and Alpine be slagging off Crouch and Pearson now or would they be the "apologists"??

At the end of last season things were not better than they are now, but those with certain agendas were peddling their same old mantras.

3 wins in 13 with experienced pros and you reckon he would do better with this squad? Or has your nephew logged on under your name again Steve?

 

 

just because pearson win the amount he won...does not make him the best option....the fact he had to go to a league below us (despite the results with the best resources and squad) does not show he was that good again..

[Saint Billy]

Its all so very simple if all you believe that getting rid of Lowe is the answer to the footballing problems - If you really believe that with Lowe out of the equation and anybody else at the helm will resolve this - then by all means be in favour of administration, as at present that indeed does look like the only way you will get your wish.

 

I think though where many of the 'apologists' are always misunderstood is in the simple fact that whatever the opinions on Lowe - and the arguments are legendary and so ingrained its a pointless excercise to be honest - administration will bring a whole new set of problems - as those who believe lowe is the only thing 'holding us back' will surely appreciate, the impact of relegation and administration on the whole structure of the club that is being held together under such fragile condistions at the moment will change yet again - YES it will provide the circumstances for someone with a genuine love for the club to step in and build a new, but this will take both time and money - what timescales for regrowth do those in favour of administration believe will be acceptable to the vasy majority of fans? - especially as no one has truelly ever indicated they have the funds to rebuild the club.

 

I think most of even the most ardent 'apologists' recognise that things aint going according to plan - we have hope, that is true, afterall thats what being a fan is alllabout , the dreams and aspiration thing that makes us want to believe - but points on the board is what its all about when in a relegation scrap and now we are not even playing the pretty football anymore.... do we chuck it all in? do we give up on the plan? I dont have a problem with reviewing the situation and looking at better alternatives - thats life, but we do have VERY short memories - remember Redflaps? the best choice to keep us up - a real legend of the game? He came here and destroyed what little confidence and spirit the side had left.

 

It just shows that there are no guarrantees - its sport, and there is a logic in both argumnets - change before its too late, or stick at it and hope that it comes together? the continuity - afterall Its fair to say that those clubs with great success have stuck with their managers a long time, even through some very sticky patches and poor results?

 

The answer? I dont have a crystal ball - but right now its a given that the lottery of administration is probably the 'strategy' that has the biggest risk and the greatest unknown. That's why I am a so called 'apologist' - I do not believe administration is the answer to our problems - it might get rid of the devil, but we would undoubtedly be stuck in Hell, upside down in a tank of Sh!te for the forseeable, as the only angel trying to rescue us is a local tin pot who has borrowed 2 mil from 20 mates tries in vain to provide a ladder - which is way too short and cant be bridged by the 'bleeding red and white' fan friend'y platitudes. Lowe out or in is one debate - but administration as the tool to get rid is so misguided.

 

Sorry, but Lowe, the root cause of disharmony within the club and it´s fanbase has to go. If he can no longer contribute anything positive so what is the point of him being involved.

 

We are in the ****e big time, but at least lets swim in it without him at the helm.

[sadoldgit]

We didn't become world beaters when we beat Reading the same as the end of the world didn't occur when we lost to Nottingham Forest.

Whatever happens on the football pitch at any given time, it is just a game.

If people are unable to differentiate between the highs and lows of supporting a medium sized professional football club and the real dramas being played out in people's real lives every day, that is their problem.

At least places like these keep them off the streets.

[um pahars]

Apologists or realsists?

 

If Crouch and Pearson were at the helm when we nearly went down last year. Realistcally who can say we would not be in exactly the same siuation now, given that we had more experienced players last season?

Would the likes of Um Pahars and Alpine be slagging off Crouch and Pearson now or would they be the "apologists"??

At the end of last season things were not better than they are now, but those with certain agendas were peddling their same old mantras.

3 wins in 13 with experienced pros and you reckon he would do better with this squad? Or has your nephew logged on under your name again Steve?

 

If you had read my posts when Pearson was appointed (you really should try and read, and digest, before you post:rolleyes::rolleyes:), then I was quite clear that Crouch would have to take responsibility for the appointment. Following the Dodd & Gorman debacle, then I was quite clear that if Pearson failed, then Crouch would have had to take repsonsibility.

 

You see, I judge people by their actions and try as far as possible to be consistent in my treatment of them. I wasn't shy in praising Lowe when he did well (and for a few years he did very well), and I wouldn't have been shy in criticising Crouch if I felt it was justified. But of course, that just wouldn't fit in with your blinkered approach on things;)

 

At the end of last season we finished on a points per game ratio of 1.2+, not outstanding, but something to be built on. We had a manager who had the support of the fans and there was a feeling around the place that at last we had something to get behind.

 

We are now on less than a point a game, probably in the relegation zone by the end of this week, 22nd in the current form table and with a Club that is tearing itself apart.

 

No one will ever know whether Pearson would have been just as awful as Poortvliet is turning out to be, but I think if you took a straw poll then I reckon a clear majority (including my nephew) would say that they would have thought that Pearson would have performed better.

 

Which way would you vote??? :smt044:smt044:smt044

[badgerx16]

Apologists or realsists?

 

If Crouch and Pearson were at the helm when we nearly went down last year. Realistcally who can say we would not be in exactly the same siuation now, given that we had more experienced players last season?

Would the likes of Um Pahars and Alpine be slagging off Crouch and Pearson now or would they be the "apologists"??

At the end of last season things were not better than they are now, but those with certain agendas were peddling their same old mantras.

3 wins in 13 with experienced pros and you reckon he would do better with this squad? Or has your nephew logged on under your name again Steve?

We will never know whether NP would have made a difference, my opinion, and those of others on here are that he would have done. You are entitled to a different view.

 

One thing we do know, however, is that the 'experiment' is floundering; there is no sign that Jan has the slightest clue how to turn things around, and Rupes will not admit his mistake in appointing him The whole exercise is about RL's ego and vanity.

[alpine_saint]

We didn't become world beaters when we beat Reading the same as the end of the world didn't occur when we lost to Nottingham Forest.

Whatever happens on the football pitch at any given time, it is just a game.

If people are unable to differentiate between the highs and lows of supporting a medium sized professional football club and the real dramas being played out in people's real lives every day, that is their problem.

At least places like these keep them off the streets.

 

Utterly bonkers.

 

We have our worst home record since being in the League and he describes it as "highs and lows" :rolleyes:

[Thedelldays]

We didn't become world beaters when we beat Reading the same as the end of the world didn't occur when we lost to Nottingham Forest.

Whatever happens on the football pitch at any given time, it is just a game.

If people are unable to differentiate between the highs and lows of supporting a medium sized professional football club and the real dramas being played out in people's real lives every day, that is their problem.

At least places like these keep them off the streets.

 

 

no one said we were...infact, many put it down as a freak result...

[Frank's cousin]

Hi UP and Snowballs- I guess in response to your points, Yes I would have like to see how pearson would have done had he stayed, but is the logic that because we were destined to ship out teh expensive contracts and play kids to keep teh administrators at bay, the rationale for going with a dutch coach? Maybe I am guilty of too much 'rational and not enough 'instinct' but its such a difficult choice and lots of IFs, BUts and and maybes....

 

Snowballs, I guess my point on the admin issue though is:

 

With Lowe and JP - we do have every cvhance of going doen this year but also slim chnace of staying up. Whereas admin now means almost relegation. Yes this May mean to end of Lowe and JP, but even this is not guarranteed , butwe would have a whole new set of problems to conpound those we already have. So I am not convinced its a suitable solution - and should it really be used to get rid of someone?

 

I dont think any of us have the answer here - as all fans have different thresholds of expectation based on teh circu,stances - its why I asked what would teh majority believe is an approproiate timescale for recovery on administration - we could be looking at 10 years + and is that something that would see the gates rise at SMS? I just dont believe we would have the patience for that kind of rebuild - so I guess Thats why avoiding administration and thus giving ourselves a fightinmg chance of surviving in the CCC this season with whoever at the helm is my favoured option really.

[um pahars]

Hi UP and Snowballs- I guess in response to your points, Yes I would have like to see how pearson would have done had he stayed, but is the logic that because we were destined to ship out teh expensive contracts and play kids to keep teh administrators at bay, the rationale for going with a dutch coach? Maybe I am guilty of too much 'rational and not enough 'instinct' but its such a difficult choice and lots of IFs, BUts and and maybes....

 

I fully accept that Lowe had a logical thought approach behind appointing Jan & co, but that in no way means that:

 

a) it was the only option, and

 

b) it was the right option

 

Pearson could so easily have been kept on, but instead Lowe went with his decision and he will have to be judged on it.

 

You had contact with Wilde and the Lowe camp before they came in, surely you were aware that they did not approve of Pearson and were going to appoint their own man.

 

Snowballs, I guess my point on the admin issue though is:

 

With Lowe and JP - we do have every cvhance of going doen this year but also slim chnace of staying up. Whereas admin now means almost relegation. Yes this May mean to end of Lowe and JP, but even this is not guarranteed , butwe would have a whole new set of problems to conpound those we already have. So I am not convinced its a suitable solution - and should it really be used to get rid of someone?

 

For me, Administration is not the answer to our problems.

[Snowballs2]

Hi UP and Snowballs- I guess in response to your points, Yes I would have like to see how pearson would have done had he stayed, but is the logic that because we were destined to ship out teh expensive contracts and play kids to keep teh administrators at bay, the rationale for going with a dutch coach? Maybe I am guilty of too much 'rational and not enough 'instinct' but its such a difficult choice and lots of IFs, BUts and and maybes....

 

Snowballs, I guess my point on the admin issue though is:

 

With Lowe and JP - we do have every cvhance of going doen this year but also slim chnace of staying up. Whereas admin now means almost relegation. Yes this May mean to end of Lowe and JP, but even this is not guarranteed , butwe would have a whole new set of problems to conpound those we already have. So I am not convinced its a suitable solution - and should it really be used to get rid of someone?

 

I dont think any of us have the answer here - as all fans have different thresholds of expectation based on teh circu,stances - its why I asked what would teh majority believe is an approproiate timescale for recovery on administration - we could be looking at 10 years + and is that something that would see the gates rise at SMS? I just dont believe we would have the patience for that kind of rebuild - so I guess Thats why avoiding administration and thus giving ourselves a fightinmg chance of surviving in the CCC this season with whoever at the helm is my favoured option really.

 

 

It depends on the word recovery...to me it is the re unity of the fans...bringing additional income through the gates, respecting the value of the customer and starting anew.

Yes administration would bring about relegation, it would probably bring about the demise of the most detested chairman in the history of the club.

Supporters would return and support the rebirth next season no matter what league we were in.

I would rather see us with a platform in the next division down to begin the rebirth under a new chairman than to see the divisions continue.

We know that while Lowe still has anything to do with Saints, we will continue to suffer the divisions and political in fighting.

We can , under a new manager, and chairman rise again in a couple of years to become a club to be respected and who will improve season on season.

That is why the main priority is to get Lowe away from the club and quickly.

We do have a good future, but it is after administration ...and without Lowe and Wilde.

[saintjay77]

It depends on the word recovery...to me it is the re unity of the fans...bringing additional income through the gates, respecting the value of the customer and starting anew.

Yes administration would bring about relegation, it would probably bring about the demise of the most detested chairman in the history of the club.

Supporters would return and support the rebirth next season no matter what league we were in.

I would rather see us with a platform in the next division down to begin the rebirth under a new chairman than to see the divisions continue.

We know that while Lowe still has anything to do with Saints, we will continue to suffer the divisions and political in fighting.

We can , under a new manager, and chairman rise again in a couple of years to become a club to be respected and who will improve season on season.

That is why the main priority is to get Lowe away from the club and quickly.

We do have a good future, but it is after administration ...and without Lowe and Wilde.

 

 

I can see where you are coming from but this strikes me as something of a dream situation. We all thought it was going to be miraculasly better when we got rid of Lowe last time and now look at us?

 

So say we go into Administration, What are the realistic chances that we will get rid of Lowe for good? Or any of the others for that matter. Personally I think he will do what ever he can to get back in and try again. He wont say he has failed and he will use it as if it was his plan to get rid of debt all along and rebuild without so much baggage.

 

So quite possibly we will be starting next season 1 league lower with even less tallent and the same people in charge. Gates will be even less and the catch 22 situation will just carry on and on and on.

 

IMO we are stuck with things as they are at the top until things get better on the pitch. If we can get ourselves into a position where we are attractive to possible buyers then that will be our best chance of getting rid of Lowe and the rest of them. I dont care if he walks way thinking he is taking the paudits for an ounce of success as long as someone buys his shares and he is gone for good.

 

This is something else that gets on my nerves a bit too. If Crouch is such an uber fan and has people ready to come in and save the day when we have hit rock bottom, why doesnt he just get it done now before we have drowned? I mean i am not going to be overly impressed with those waiting in the wings for us to go into administration, drop another league and sell anything of value. just to then pop up and make it look like they give a sh1t and claim they will take us forward. FFS if we drop another league I reckon I would be able to step in and take us forward so I dont see why anyone should get that much credit for it. If someone has got the brass cahona's to fix what is broken now then come in and make an offer that lowe and the rest of the muppets will accept and feck off. They wil get much more support from us lot if they put the effort in.