England v Italy

[Turkish]

I'd have Clyne, Chambers and Dodd over Glenn Johnson though

 

Id have Peter Rodrigues personally

[Chez]

We lost but that was probably the most fluid England I've seen in years.

 

Good riddance to the 4-4-2 I say, more of that performance please.

 

Could not agree more. A million miles from the displays in South Africa. Hope the other sides sit back and allow us to stroll out from the back then get between their lines like we did last night.

[Saint Without a Halo]

I'd have Clyne, Chambers and Dodd over Glenn Johnson though

 

Baines was left exposed to often too as Italy moved the ball right every time playing on how slow Gerrard was (a player I know loath for his England duty tapping up antics) and the inability of our so called wingers Rooney and Wellbeck to defend.

[Saint Without a Halo]

Don't agree, nothing like the same old same old, we used to have a reasonable defence and a limited attack, we now have a pretty good attack and a very limited defence. I saw more flair from England going forward than I did from Brazil the other night.

 

Err Brazil were the hosts kicking off at home under a lot of pressure and playing a good Croatia side we were playing an old Italian team described by Hart "as past their peak and too old and slow"

Despite that they had more possession than us, defended better had the best midfielder on the pitch in a 35 year old Pirlo and scored two as well as hitting the post and bar so what does that make us?

 

Yes this is a world cup too early for the youngsters however it wasn't for the Dutch youngsters was it as instead of Rooney and Gerrard they had Van Persie and Robben around them and many of them play in a so called inferior league? Bring on Koeman I say!

 

The end result is Brazil won despite not peaking and we lost whilst playing well. Doesn't bode well then for the rest of the tournament does it!

[Graffito]

Err Brazil were the hosts kicking off at home under a lot of pressure and playing a good Croatia side we were playing an old Italian team described by Hart "as past their peak and too old and slow"

Despite that they had more possession than us, defended better had the best midfielder on the pitch in a 35 year old Pirlo and scored two as well as hitting the post and bar so what does that make us?

 

Yes this is a world cup too early for the youngsters however it wasn't for the Dutch youngsters was it as instead of Rooney and Gerrard they had Van Persie and Robben around them and many of them play in a so called inferior league? Bring on Koeman I say!

 

The end result is Brazil won despite not peaking and we lost whilst playing well. Doesn't bode well then for the rest of the tournament does it!

 

Don't know what the average age of the teams was but there's not much between the squads; England 26 and Italy 27. Pirlo was peerless at 35. Gerrard arguably past his best at 34. Maybe Hart's got that wrong.

[Turkish]

Could not agree more. A million miles from the displays in South Africa. Hope the other sides sit back and allow us to stroll out from the back then get between their lines like we did last night.

 

In fact you could say it's our best tournament performance since 2004. We've been pretty dreadful in all of them since then.

[shurlock]

I think Rooney is being a little harshly treated when it comes to giving Baines protection. No matter who the player is they are always going to struggle to be right up next to the striker one minute and then standing in front of the left back the next. The formation makes that role very tough. The idea that Lallana will do that better is folly. He struggled big style to track full backs in his first season in the prem when played left wing.

 

Disagree. He grew into it in the first season and was excellent at it in the second.

 

Watched that part of our game v.closely because it's a vulnerability. Nonetheless both Jrod and Lallana executed it brilliantly, dropping back and wide very quickly -in most cases, preventing the fullback advancing more than 10 or so yards.

 

Obviously it's a different order at international level where the ball can be switched quicker and fullbacks are more comfortable exploiting the space in front of them -not to mention the differences in climate- but I have no doubt that one of our lads would have done it better. England also weren't helped by the DMs unwillingness to patrol the width of the pitch.

Edited 15 June, 2014 by shurlock

[shurlock]

A much better England performance but that's not saying much.

 

Not much finesse on show but plenty of pace and direct running that caused Italy plenty of problems. If you believed the dinlows on here, you would think those things were anachronisms and irrelevances in the modern game. Pace matters.

[positivepete]

 

Gary Lewin and his ankle

[ericofarabia]

Pirlo was masterclass. A joy to watch.

 

Don't really understand why Lallana came on (or any of the other subs in fact!!) instead of Lambert. We needed a goal or 2 FFS. Didn't seem to be any game plan, Adam was just running around like a headless chicken along the front line.

 

Classic Epic Goal Celebration Fail by the whole of The England contingent in The Bar. Beer sprayed everywhere, glasses/bottles knocked over .... game had been going on for about 2 minutes after before most of us realised it hadn't one in

 

Rooneys Corner ... seen lady drivers take corners better

[Lord Duckhunter]

A much better England performance but that's not saying much.

 

Not much finesse on show but plenty of pace and direct running that caused Italy plenty of problems. If you believed the dinlows on here, you would think those things were anachronisms and irrelevances in the modern game. Pace matters.

 

The best player on the park was as slow as me.

[SaintSteve]

A much better England performance but that's not saying much.

 

Not much finesse on show but plenty of pace and direct running that caused Italy plenty of problems. If you believed the dinlows on here, you would think those things were anachronisms and irrelevances in the modern game. Pace matters.

 

Yes, but finesse won over pace last night

[shurlock]

Pirlo was masterclass. A joy to watch.

 

Don't really understand why Lallana came on (or any of the other subs in fact!!) instead of Lambert. We needed a goal or 2 FFS. Didn't seem to be any game plan, Adam was just running around like a headless chicken along the front line.

 

Classic Epic Goal Celebration Fail by the whole of The England contingent in The Bar. Beer sprayed everywhere, glasses/bottles knocked over .... game had been going on for about 2 minutes after before most of us realised it hadn't one in

 

Rooneys Corner ... seen lady drivers take corners better

 

Headless chicken? Some were decent runs - just needed someone to look up and play a pass. Unfortunately England don't have the guile to play that kind of ball. Barkley was especially culpable as he often kept the ball too long and allowed those spaces to close.

[shurlock]

Yes, but finesse won over pace last night

 

True, though they have found a formula that plays to their strengths and could go pretty far -if not in this WC, in future competitions.

[shirleysfc]

Yes, but finesse won over pace last night

 

The complete opposite from Spain v Holland

[sadoldgit]

We are not strong defensively and that will be our downfall. Lambert should have been given 20 to 30 mins yesterday. Clyne struggles to get in the Saints team before Chamber so not sure why he should start for England. Rooney seems out to prove that he isnt the World Class player a lot of people says he is. We lack the football intelligence DNA as someone said earlier. Also someone said that Italy didnt get out of 3rd gear and I agree that they always seemed to have something in reserve whereas we seemed to be giving everything we had. Still this is shaping up to be a classic WC so lets enjoy it!

[Turkish]

True, though they have found a formula that plays to their strengths and could go pretty far -if not in this WC, in future competitions.

 

so finesse when harnessed into an effective system over comes pace and direct running with no finesse

 

Something about the dinlows on here.

 

Right out of the top draw this one sunshine, well done

[david in sweden]

A good game NOT to play in.

 

Firstly, most people accept that Luke Shaw is only along for the ride, but what a great experience for him at this age. He'll only play if Baines get seriously injured.

I really did expect Lallana to start instead of only coming in at the death, whilst Roy plumped for his Merseyside / Manchester team selections instead.....(am I glad that Milner didn't get to come on, too)

 

Like many fans, I still think of Rickie Lambert as a Saints' player, (at least until he starts his first game in a Liverpool shirt) .....but would loved to have seen him play.

On recent showings, I'd have chosen him in front of Welbeck...(or even Rooney for that matter) - after all we did start with Sturridge AND Sterling who would have seen the benefit of Lambert's service.

 

Some players may forever be tainted with the memory of the result....

 

but then my mind went back to a time in Mick Channon's career in the early 70's. It really was Mick's heyday and he was scoring for fun but was suddenly was left out of an very interesting and prestigious England fixture. Many Saints' fans were upset and disappointed. England lost dismally...in retrospect ...it was a good fixture NOT to be involved in.

 

Mick went on to play more England games, whereas one or two of those chosen that day had played their last international game.

 

Perhaps we will see a few changes for the next game.... if Roy has the courage to change it.

Edited 15 June, 2014 by david in sweden

[Turkish]

The complete opposite from Spain v Holland

 

The difference being holland had pace and outstanding ability. Danny welbeck is no Arjan Robben.

[Giordano]

Some good points here, particularly from Italian perspective, but don't you think the problems for England down the left were key with Damian (is it?) able to play so advanced and tie up both Baines and Rooney? Or are you saying that a man on Pirlo would have dealt with this by wresting control in CM? An extra CM rather than an attacking midfielder might have done this for England. Someone to tuck in on England's left. But I can't criticise Hodgson too much. He went for it like we wanted.

 

Darmian got his debut three weeks. It was the English equivalent of picking and PLAYING Luke Shaw, albeit because de sciglio ( first choice) was injured, as were Montolivo and Buffon. Italy were shorn of three first team starters -unlike full strength England. So Prandelli won that game tactically.

 

I did not know what to expect being as I'm not a football manager but I would hope Roy would have targeted Darmian -instead the opposite happened and Italy targeted OUR left back. As for Pirlo -yes England should have stopped him by man marking. Stop Pirlo and Italy are down to 50% effectiveness.

 

If you are going to pick Gerard AND Henderson then I would have told Henderson that's your job-stop that slow Jesus lookalike guy. Henderson did nothing anyway. If he had stopped just 25% of Pirlos output then in the second phase turnover that would have arisen by his harrying and tackles/interceptions etc we would have had many more dangerous chances - as it was no one got within three yards of Pirlo -criminal frankly. I know everyone respects him as a player me especially but FFS it's the WC so somebody should have taken a card for the team and country by taking him out. I know that's cynical but that's how winners win sometimes -and England yet again show how losers lose. Did you see what I think it was barzagli or chiellini did to sterling ( of was it sturridge?) -that knee in the back of the thigh. Looked a slightly mistimed challenge and hot the free kick. ******** it was slightly mistimed.

 

 

So if we'd got turnover ball from pressing Pirlo and with the pace of our front players I'd say at least one goal would have arisen, perhaps more. Instead Henderson just ran around a lot like English midfielders always do but without intelligence-if he'd been running round Pirlo all the time different story different outcome maybe different end result. For me-if he plays Henderson and Gerrard then there is spare to man mark Pirlo-not two guys essentially " sitting" because we want to be solid for our offensive other players benefit. When I mentioned humility I particularly mean the absence of ego required for players to track back diligently. If ALL our forward players had it then Pirlo does not get so much ball either.

Incidentally both Pirlo and de Rossi had over 100 completed passes. A magnificent statistic and the best statistic to have in that atmosphere and climate . England's highest was about 60 I think. De Rossi and Pirlo basically Made almost more passes than rest of eng mf put together.

 

Yeah-so Roy went for it. But we did not have to lose that match IMO. Avoidable yet unlucky in some sense defeat. Players gave everything but tactics let them down. Lions led by donkeys I think is the phrase. I still think England can do well in the tournament though. Fingers crossed. They will get more joy against teams like Brazil who are more open than against teams like Italy ( ANC Chile incidentally who gave us an idea of what to expect a few months back...)

[shurlock]

so finesse when harnessed into an effective system over comes pace and direct running with no finesse

 

Something about the dinlows on here.

 

Right out of the top draw this one sunshine, well done

 

You're missing the point but that's to be expected. Point is England ran European runners up very close -indeed on any other day would have claimed a draw.

 

Contrast yesterday's performance with that in 2012, a night and day difference and can in large part be attributed to the willingness to play with pace and direct running. As the likes of Welbeck, Sterling, Barkley get more experience and maturity and some of the older players get phased out, it could serve as a very competitive template. A far cry from its dismissal by dinlows like you.

 

Will stop here pal - you might try and get me banned again .

[Chez]

Disagree. He grew into it in the first season and was excellent at it in the second.

 

 

Lallana played more in the hole in the second season so how could he have excelled in that left wing role? Rodriguez played on the left and there were countless times when he ball watched and left Shaw exposed, we just weren't punished often.

[shurlock]

Lallana played more in the hole in the second season so how could he have excelled in that left wing role? Rodriguez played on the left and there were countless times when he ball watched and left Shaw exposed, we just weren't punished often.

 

Edit

[Whitey Grandad]

Id have Peter Rodrigues personally

 

Good choice, but he played 40 times for Wales. Otherwise, perfect.

[saintant]

Well, that was a king sized kick in the teeth for Rickie Lambert from our master tactician Roy Hodgson. We're in need of a goal so what does Roy do? He brings on Barkley, Wilshire and Lallana, three midfielders who are not exactly full of goals. To give you a clue Roy when you need a goal you generally call for a striker, that's what they do, they score goals in case your years in football haven't taught you that. How many goals or assists do the three players he chose to bring on have to their name in an England shirt? It won't be many. Contrast that to SRL who in not many minutes for his country has scored two cracking goals and laid on three or four for team-mates. Still, let's ignore that and bring on some more midfielders. He must feel like catching the next flight home. If you don't call on a player like Rickie in that situation when do you call on him - maybe when England are three up with five minutes to go. Pat him on the head Roy and say, 'There you go Rickie, show us what you can do son.' Mind boggling!

[Turkish]

You're missing the point but that's to be expected. Point is England ran European runners up very close -indeed on any other day would have claimed a draw.

 

Contrast yesterday's performance with that in 2012, a night and day difference and can in large part be attributed to the willingness to play with pace and direct running. As the likes of Welbeck, Sterling, Barkley get more experience and maturity and some of the older players get phased out, it could serve as a very competitive template. A far cry from its dismissal by dinlows like you.

 

Will stop here pal - you might try and get me banned again .

 

It's the consistency of your arguments that I admire so much.

 

 

On the one had 'the dinlows' don't think pace matters, yet 5 minutes later admitting that ability in an effective system overcomes direct running and lack of finesse.

 

Arguing the case for the slower Adam Lallana to be picked ahead of Wellbeck, arguably the most direct runner in the side, because his positional sense in that role is better.

 

I think you'll find my 'dismissal' of pace is no such thing and much like your trying to get you banned statement completely made up, but that's no surprise.Rather I've championed constantly is to sign players with ability than simply pace as we simply can't afford players who have both in abundance. Remind me what Steve de ridder and Micheal Antonio are up to these days? Two players we were assured by some were amazing simply because they were quick.

 

It seems you're stil struggling with it though, which is no surprise. Let's hope Roy goes for the direct running of Wellbeck ahead of Lallana against Uruguay, or something :lol:

Edited 15 June, 2014 by Turkish

[Chez]

Well, that was a king sized kick in the teeth for Rickie Lambert from our master tactician Roy Hodgson. We're in need of a goal so what does Roy do? He brings on Barkley, Wilshire and Lallana, three midfielders who are not exactly full of goals. To give you a clue Roy when you need a goal you generally call for a striker, that's what they do, they score goals in case your years in football haven't taught you that. How many goals or assists do the three players he chose to bring on have to their name in an England shirt? It won't be many. Contrast that to SRL who in not many minutes for his country has scored two cracking goals and laid on three or four for team-mates. Still, let's ignore that and bring on some more midfielders. He must feel like catching the next flight home. If you don't call on a player like Rickie in that situation when do you call on him - maybe when England are three up with five minutes to go. Pat him on the head Roy and say, 'There you go Rickie, show us what you can do son.' Mind boggling!

 

But Roy swapped an injured Sturridge for Rooney in the striker position. When you need a goal bringing on a different striker is one option, but changing the supply line is another way of getting it.

Edited 15 June, 2014 by Chez

[WealdSaint]

I have to say that the team played better than I had expected. I've been a big critic of Welbeck, but I thought he played well.

 

Other than the cross, I still can't see what Rooney did. It seems a repeating pattern, the Rooney that plays for Man U never seems to turn up for the world cup finals.

 

I wasn't sure how much we got defensively from Gerrard & Henderson?

 

I'm not sure that Luke would have done any better than Baines over all, as Baines was left defending on his own too much, but I'd have put money on Luke making the tackle when they got the cross in for their second goal.

 

Substitutions were odd, esp Wiltshire when we desperately needed a goal. I thought the whole point of having Rickie in the squad was the impact striker who you throw on in the last 15 minutes when you desperately need a goal

[saintant]

Yes and it worked beautifully didn't it Chez!

[Whitey Grandad]

There's a place for pace but running full tilt into brick walls and blind alleys isn't it.

[Saints boy in Leeds]

I think we we're unlucky not to get a draw last night.

 

Second half crossing was pretty bad and let's not forget it was Italy who have won 4 World Cups (I think) and 1 EC in thier history, last cup was won 7 odd years ago and our last and only honour was over 45 years ago.

 

The only thing I'd say that disappointed me was Johnsons performance and the Rooney chance, I for one now firmly believe he should be dropped as others in the squad have had better seasons than him and deserve a chance, they are the future after all.

 

He's had plenty of chances in international tournaments and he has never delivered, if he sticks that chance away he shouts any doubters up and we may even of gone on to win ?

 

Still think we will go through as if we play like that in the next 2 games we should just about win them.

[Window Cleaner]

Not a bad game all in all, England erred with their finishing, far too many shots from outside the box off target or easy pickings for Sirigu. Perhaps they thought that as it wasn't Buffon it was a village idiot in their goal, who knows.

[Barry the Badger]

Substitutions were odd, esp Wiltshire when we desperately needed a goal. I thought the whole point of having Rickie in the squad was the impact striker who you throw on in the last 15 minutes when you desperately need a goal

 

I didn't think so st all we were losing the battle in midfield and not creating enough at that point, Wilshere is definitely more capable of threading a through ball than Henderson.

[Barry the Badger]

If we'd had schneiderlin instead of Gerrard/Rooney they'd have had nowhere near that much joy down the wings. Having watched three excellent holding midfield players all season it's clear that the two Liverpool players offer nothing like the same protection.

[scotty]

Id have Peter Rodrigues personally

 

Didn't Rodrigues run a pub in totton after he retired?

[SaintSteve]

The complete opposite from Spain v Holland

 

Chalk and cheese I'm afraid... Robben is on a different planet to any of our offensive players; and you don't notice his pace as much as his technical finesse.. although he has both in abundance.

Having said that, I think a combination of Sterling and Lallana would have been better last night, gives us a bit more variation, and the Italian defence would have had more to think about.

[Um Bongo]

Rooney summed it up with that corner, which is probably the worst I have ever seen. Fact is, he is not on form and should not be starting.

[Turkish]

Didn't Rodrigues run a pub in totton after he retired?

 

Don't know, but it was the standard post career job for a 70s soccerballist. Used to see him in the Dock of the bay a fair bit in the early 00s.

[Noodles34]

If we'd had schneiderlin instead of Gerrard/Rooney they'd have had nowhere near that much joy down the wings. Having watched three excellent holding midfield players all season it's clear that the two Liverpool players offer nothing like the same protection.

 

how does Spiderman play for England?

[SaintSteve]

Didn't Rodrigues run a pub in totton after he retired?

 

Yes.. in Eling, may have been the Rufus.

[bazza]

From a 'neutral's' point of view England played really well but were edged out by a better team. As we know only too well the full-backs can be exposed in a 4-2-3-1 and Italy took full advantage down the England left. Rooney's the conundrum for the Uruguay game. Despite the cross for the goal Hodgson has to utilise him up the middle or leave him on the bench. Rooney with Chamberlain (or Lallana if he's unfit) & Sterling on either side and Sturridge up top is the obvious choice for me.

[Chez]

Yes and it worked beautifully didn't it Chez!

 

Management by hindsight is easy.

 

Personally I thought Roy picked a very decent starting side. Wellbeck is much criticised, not by me I might add, and he was a real threat along with Sterling. Rooney set up the goal with a gem of a cross for Sturridge, and his decent movement created his own chance. The balance of the side wasn't too bad and we caused Italy so many problems.

 

I thought the subs made sense as the formation was working and we just needed to freshen up the personnel. Rickie is great obviously, but he does drop deep a lot and that would be into an already congested area, so effectively going for Rooney over him for the last 15 is not a crazy decision. The subs did ok and we created a couple of chances.

 

I'm pretty upbeat about the side and the manager. Watching England has been painful for years. Last night seemed very different to me. Get Shaw into that side and I think we can still get out of the group.

[Pastor Patrón]

I haven't watched England for years so not a lot to compare to progress wise, but we were appalling last night. Rooney simply shouldn't be in the first 11, and the whole attack seems to just rely on mindless runs with no end product, the level of actual skill on display is horrific. Even though Sterling was one of the livelier players he's a nothing player, just another Theo/Young/Townsend.

[Berudenot2]

Whilst I can understand Roy's desire to blend experience with youth I feel that some of the younger players are far too deferential to the old school and as a consequence the style of play becomes disjointed. Sturridge, Sterling & Wellbeck were all knackered after 70 minutes so either fitness levels are suspect or the climate is impacting on energy levels. Might it not be better to inject pace in the last 20-30 minutes than start with it ? Anyone recall how the players appeared liberated in the warm up games when Shrek was subbed?

Sticking with the mediocrity of the past will almost certainly deliver more of the same.

Uruguay will not play as badly as against Costa Rica but are there for the taking because I believe Suarez isn't fully recovered and is on the bench as a bit of subterfuge. Play the old guard in their preferred positions if you must Roy but dropping them would be the bold choice. Lose this and lose your job I would think.

[Saint Billy]

Amazing how we all see it differently. I was really disappointed with the display apart from Sterling, Sturridge and Welbeck.

 

The likes of Rooney, Gerrard and Johnson yet again failed in the big game like a stuck record.

 

The endless hoofs over the crossbar and fluffed corners and missed opportunities does not constitute England having a reasonably good game in my book.

 

If that is the best England have played in a WC for decades god help us.

 

We needed a goal in the last few minute's and to do this we bring on the prolific Wilshire, what planet is Hodgson on ffs !!

Edited 15 June, 2014 by Saint Billy

[St Marco]

With my family being Italian naturally it was a win win situation for me. I thought it was a decent game and England did a lot better then I thought they would. Sterling did very well.

The only downers would be Rooney again failed to deliver on the top stage. Wellbeck did ok for the first 20 mins then was just a passenger after that.

Still think we will get through.

[iansums]

Clearly there are a lot of people on this forum that don't know much about football, those that are slating the England performance. Take a look at the papers this morning, almost universally saying that it was a good performance.

 

Or is it just that some people seem to take pleasure in moaning?

[Saint Without a Halo]

Clearly there are a lot of people on this forum that don't know much about football, those that are slating the England performance. Take a look at the papers this morning, almost universally saying that it was a good performance.

 

Or is it just that some people seem to take pleasure in moaning?

 

Right lets all believe the papers then rather than what we saw! if so we should have won at least 5 world cups over my lifetime. The papers will have us as world class till we are out of the cup then they will tear us apart. Happens every four years!

 

This team was nowhere near as good as a whole number of previous unsuccessful England world cup teams with the possible exception of the team in South Africa

Edited 15 June, 2014 by Saint Without a Halo

[iansums]

Right lets all believe the papers then rather than what we saw! if so we should have won at least 5 world cups over my lifetime.

 

No because normally the papers would be slating England after losing a game but they are not.

 

You should believe your own eyes but many on here should've gone to Specsavers. Just like when Saints lose a game this place goes into meltdown, but sometimes you can play well and still lose. Remember Italy were the losing finalists in Euro 2012.

[OldNick]

IF we he got the first goal or been ahead in the second half, then you would have seen a much different game and the passing percentages a lot different. Italy did nt have to press or take risks and so could do a lot of safe passing around the defence and midfield. There is something to build on.