D-Day 70

[Batman]

So sad that the Normandy veterans society, founded in 1981 in Grimsby will cease at the end of the year

 

30 years ago there were around 17,000 members. Now there are around 650

 

Can't imagine what they went through that day and that era

 

Just read online that the diary entry for General Montgomery for June 6 1944 was....

 

"1031, left Portsmouth. invaded Normandy"

 

Just very british

Edited 6 June, 2014 by Batman

[Ohio Saint]

There were soldiers there from nations besides the USA?..........I've obviously lived here too long.

 

It seems a great shame to me that it should cease while there are still 650 veterans of D-Day. My utmost respect to them. I would love to have a pint with one of them in a pub, could learn a LOT.

[Batman]

There were soldiers there from nations besides the USA?..........I've obviously lived here too long.

 

It seems a great shame to me that it should cease while there are still 650 veterans of D-Day. My utmost respect to them. I would love to have a pint with one of them in a pub, could learn a LOT.

 

D-day was heavily a British show.

Despite what Hollywood says

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Of the 4,126 landing craft involved, 805 were American and 3,261 were British.

[Ohio Saint]

Naming the American invasion points after US locations was a good PR move for later years compared to Sword, Juno or Gold. Americans marketing a war. Who would have thunk it.

[Batman]

Naming the American invasion points after US locations was a good PR move for later years compared to Sword or Juno or Gold. Americans marketing a war. Who would have thunk it.

 

All names to so with british military operations are usually completely random

[Ohio Saint]

All names to so with british military operations are usually completely random

 

Yes. Makes perfect sense to everyone without an ego that needs to be massaged.

[Batman]

Yes. Makes perfect sense to everyone without an ego that needs to be massaged.

 

2003

 

Operation "Iraqi freedom"

 

Op "telic"

 

Let you figure out who named which

[Window Cleaner]

My late Dad was a D-Day veteran, our son is on patrol in the Channel today, at least we're traditional.

[Ohio Saint]

We could go on all day long about how the USA Hollywooded the war. I'll just get back to honouring the last and the passed of our own, as in the post above.

Edited 6 June, 2014 by Ohio Saint

[Dimond Geezer]

I've got a huge respect for these guys & all the soldiers etc of that generation. I say 'soldiers', but few of them were, they were normal blokes, who through circumstances beyond their control had to become soldiers, sailors & airmen.

 

I believe my step-grandfather was part of the invasion force on D-Day, and I found out today that my maternal grandfather in the Royal Engineers and was involved in constructing the Mulberry harbours & several bridges, before going onto Belgium, a country that I'm lead to believe, he single handedly liberated. That's the story he told after a few whiskies at The Legion .

 

Tonight I'll be raising a glass in their honour.

[Batman]

My grandad was part of d-day. Royal Navy. Have his medals framed

 

Just so sad that it won't be long before there are no veterans left

[Ohio Saint]

My dad was too young for D-Day, but was a part of the Berlin air lift. He always tried to give the impression that he was sad about being too young for the war, and especially D-Day..........It was unspoken between us, but we both knew that he was actually relieved. He knew that like most of us, he would have crapped his pants all the way from the south coast to Berlin. But for their age, these were the people there on the day. Afraid, reluctant, insecure.........But prepared, willing and exceptionally brave.

[View From The Top]

TBH I wish there was a little less focus on June 6th '44 and a lot more focus on June 7th to late August '44.

 

The landings, whilst carried out by brave young souls, were a doddle compared to the bitter and ruthless struggle that the British had around Caen and the Yanks had in the bocage. The battle around Caen was as equally as brutal to anything on the Eastern Front and the hell that was the Falaise Gap comparable to any Eastern kessel.

 

As Wessex lads Hill 112 and the battle for it between 10th - 22th July '44 should be familiar but alas it passes as a mere footnote & yet 7000 of our kin became casualties there.

[rallyboy]

I recently visited Normandy and then the Somme and Ypres.

 

Other than standing on the beach and looking across where it all happened, I found the most moving bit in Normandy was actually at the Pegasus Bridge Museum.

There is a weapon display there and it brings home the stark reality of what they faced.

 

If I was sat at the top of the beach with a machine gun that dishes out 600 rounds a minute and has a range of 4km, I'd be fairly confident that no one is coming up that beach in one piece.

The bravery shown by the forces on the beaches and from the Paras was extraordinary, and as referenced above, very British - low key.

Imagine wandering up the road under heavy fire with your bagpiper playing?

 

 

The fact that some of the veterans had to jump through hoops today to get passes to attend services, and that their police escort didn't even show up, says something too.

 

When the guys jumped out into the water to liberate France seventy years ago no bastard asked them for an effing pass.

And today when their transport didn't work out they just sorted it themselves.

 

Top men.

I guess we'd all like to think that if asked we might be as committed and brave as some of those guys were back then, but thankfully I've never been tested.

They stood up and proved their worth.

Respect.

 

And long may their visits to Normandy continue.

[SNSUN]

Both my grandads fought in the war, though I'm not sure when. My maternal grandad ended up with shell shock for the rest of his life, while my paternal grandad was a prisoner of war, but escaped in the back of an ambulance. I'm lucky both survived the war (of course otherwise I wouldn't be here) but both went through such hardship because of it.

 

They've both long since passed away (as have north my grandmothers) but I will make sure I tell any children I may one day bear all about their great grandparents role in the war.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

http://news.sky.com/story/1276981/d-day-veterans-great-escape-from-care-home

 

Love it

[Ohio Saint]

http://news.sky.com/story/1276981/d-day-veterans-great-escape-from-care-home

 

Love it

 

Priceless!!!

[Batman]

http://news.sky.com/story/1276981/d-day-veterans-great-escape-from-care-home

 

Love it

 

Absolutely amazing.

[Window Cleaner]

TBH I wish there was a little less focus on June 6th '44 and a lot more focus on June 7th to late August '44.

 

The landings, whilst carried out by brave young souls, were a doddle compared to the bitter and ruthless struggle that the British had around Caen and the Yanks had in the bocage. The battle around Caen was as equally as brutal to anything on the Eastern Front and the hell that was the Falaise Gap comparable to any Eastern kessel.

 

As Wessex lads Hill 112 and the battle for it between 10th - 22th July '44 should be familiar but alas it passes as a mere footnote & yet 7000 of our kin became casualties there.

 

 

We had a half hour documentary on the "Poche de Falaise" today, problem is that no presidents or princesses visited it today so Sky probably gave it a miss.

[aintforever]

http://news.sky.com/story/1276981/d-day-veterans-great-escape-from-care-home

 

Love it

 

That bloke is a ****ing legend.

[Micky]

http://news.sky.com/story/1276981/d-day-veterans-great-escape-from-care-home

 

Love it

 

Heard about this on the news as I was driving home from work - made me smile. Top man.

[John Boy Saint]

My Grandad was too old to be called up but being in the Terriers (TA) the goal posts were moved not in his favour so he spent pretty much 5 years away during the war. He was on the second wave and made it all the way to Germany, and back again with stories to make his grandsons eyes wide like saucers when he told them.

 

 

With regard to something Ohio mentioned about the Hollywooding of the War by the Septics they were doing it while it was going on! My Grandad said that they were in a Cinema in France watching a news reel from the Americans when a piece came up about a town that "bunch of GI's had miraculously taken against all odds", this snippet had the whole Cinema in uproar as most of the guys in the Cinema had fought a hard battle to liberate this town with mates lost, then handed it to the Americans for safe keeping without a German for miles, while the British forces moved forwards onto the next towns.

[Saint in Paradise]

We could go on all day long about how the USA Hollywooded the war.

 

Yes Hollywood did BUT a lot of very brave ordinary Americans also gave their lives so please don't forget them.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

The problem I have with this 'Hollywooding' business is that Spielberg's 'Saving Private Ryan' for instance did not pretend to be a comprehensive overview of Operation Overlord in all its vast complexity, it was rather a (largely fictional) account of one US infantry squad at war. On that basis I see no reason to object to that. If you really want to see a D-Day film that looks at the events of the day from a more comprehensive perspective then Hollywood also produced 'The Longest Day' back in 1962 - a huge epic film that may lack the extraordinary visceral impact of 'Ryan' but certainly doesn't lack in ambition.

 

A more persuasive charge of 'Hollywooding' could be levelled at the movie 'U-571' - a truly risible effort that portrayed the US Navy capturing the German 'Enigma' coding machine (in a completely unbelievable manner) when any fool knows it was in fact our Royal Navy that actually first did that.

[pap]

Ultimately, I wonder how decisive D-Day was.

 

There's no doubt that it brought about VE Day a lot sooner; the Soviet charge eastward may have been more problematic had Hitler not had to worry about a Western flank. However, I've a feeling they'd have got there anyway. Stalin was pretty dissatisfied with his Allies efforts on the continent. He felt that too much of the cost of the war, in blood at least, had been borne by the USSR.

 

As it was, while the invasion happened in time to expedite VE day, it was too late to save Europe from the Soviets afterward, despite Churchill's insistence that Western forces rush into areas before the Soviets could secure them.

 

This view does nothing to diminish the bravery of the men involved, and we don't know how effective the earlier charge that Stalin wanted would have been. By the time D-Day happened, Italy was subdued, and the southern flanks were cut off. It was a surer plan for happening in June 1944. I do wonder whether things could have been wrapped up sooner had the Italian plan been shelved in favour of an earlier assault on Western Europe.

[View From The Top]

Ultimately, I wonder how decisive D-Day was.

 

There's no doubt that it brought about VE Day a lot sooner; the Soviet charge eastward may have been more problematic had Hitler not had to worry about a Western flank. However, I've a feeling they'd have got there anyway. Stalin was pretty dissatisfied with his Allies efforts on the continent. He felt that too much of the cost of the war, in blood at least, had been borne by the USSR.

 

As it was, while the invasion happened in time to expedite VE day, it was too late to save Europe from the Soviets afterward, despite Churchill's insistence that Western forces rush into areas before the Soviets could secure them.

 

This view does nothing to diminish the bravery of the men involved, and we don't know how effective the earlier charge that Stalin wanted would have been. By the time D-Day happened, Italy was subdued, and the southern flanks were cut off. It was a surer plan for happening in June 1944. I do wonder whether things could have been wrapped up sooner had the Italian plan been shelved in favour of an earlier assault on Western Europe.

 

They wouldn't have been able to pull it off before the summer of '44. The raid on Dieppe proved that. In addition, the assaults on North Africa, Sicily and Italy allowed planners to look at what had gone wrong and adapt and also for yank troops to be blooded.

 

As for the impact of D-Day, well it certainly shortened the war as key Waffen SS and Wehrmacht Panzer units were tied up in the West allowing the Soviets the opportunity to power through to the Oder.

 

Those key units were worn down to husks by allied airpower and the constant clashes around Caen, which ultimately led to the American breakout to the west in operation Cobra and the slaughter of the Falaise pocket. The losses incurred could never be replaced.

 

The Soviets, without June 6th onwards, would have marched to the Rhine, I have no doubt.

[um pahars]

The Soviets, without June 6th onwards, would have marched to the Rhine, I have no doubt.

 

Without June 6th, could there be an argument that they might not have stopped at the Rhine?

[View From The Top]

Without June 6th, could there be an argument that they might not have stopped at the Rhine?

 

In theory they could have marched to The Atlantic but Stalin's prize was always Eastern Europe.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Ultimately, I wonder how decisive D-Day was.

 

There's no doubt that it brought about VE Day a lot sooner; the Soviet charge eastward may have been more problematic had Hitler not had to worry about a Western flank. However, I've a feeling they'd have got there anyway. Stalin was pretty dissatisfied with his Allies efforts on the continent. He felt that too much of the cost of the war, in blood at least, had been borne by the USSR.

As it was, while the invasion happened in time to expedite VE day, it was too late to save Europe from the Soviets afterward, despite Churchill's insistence that Western forces rush into areas before the Soviets could secure them.

 

This view does nothing to diminish the bravery of the men involved, and we don't know how effective the earlier charge that Stalin wanted would have been. By the time D-Day happened, Italy was subdued, and the southern flanks were cut off. It was a surer plan for happening in June 1944. I do wonder whether things could have been wrapped up sooner had the Italian plan been shelved in favour of an earlier assault on Western Europe.

 

Indeed, although there was a utterly impracticable plan to invade France in 1942 ('Operation Sledgehammer') 'Operation Roundup', the plan for a Allied invasion of occupied France in 1943, is one of those fascinating 'what-ifs' that have excited the interest of both amateur and professional historians alike ever since the war ended.

 

The problem with this idea is that much of the specialised amphibious shipping required to mount this operation successfully was just not available in 1943 as allied shipbuilding resources were still concentrated on winning the key Battle of the Atlantic. This factor alone would surely have forced allied planners to scale back on the size of the attacking force they had been originally contemplating. I don't believe this factor was properly understood in early invasion planning.

 

Other major problems associated with 'Roundup' include the fact that the German Luftwaffe and U-Boat arms were far from the (virtually) defeated forces they were in 1944 a year earlier. The fact that the US Army was still at a comparatively early stage of its vast wartime expansion programme is also true. Taking all this into account I can't help but think that 'Roundup' would have been a much riskier operation of war to mount than 'Overlord' was to be - and the consequences of a Allied defeat here would have been profound of course. But sometimes fortune does favour the brave.

 

It is also worth noting that the defending German army, and the condition of the 'Atlantikwall' it stood behind, were certainly much weaker in 1943 too because the Nazi war machine was focused very much that summer of 1943 on its final attempt to destroy the Red Army at Kursk. Taken in the whole however I can't help but think that Churchill and Allenbrooke were probably right and that delaying the cross channel invasion of France until 1944 was the correct decision - indeed this display of strategic wisdom may have been the single most important contribution this nation made to winning the war after 1943.

 

But we'll never know for sure ...

[ecuk268]

In theory they could have marched to The Atlantic but Stalin's prize was always Eastern Europe.

 

George Patton wanted to give the Wehrmacht back their weapons, join together and carry on going eastwards.

[miserableoldgit]

Magnificent and incredibly moving. Jim was 15 and serving in the Navy at the landings...

[View From The Top]

George Patton wanted to give the Wehrmacht back their weapons, join together and carry on going eastwards.

 

But Patton was nuts.

[View From The Top]

We go the Normandy every couple of years as I like to go exploring and walking/riding the battlefields and we always visit the main British cemetery at Bayeux and as ex-RN I've "adopted" the grave of an unknown British sailor, KIA 06/06/44.

 

We take flowers and stay a while at his side. It sounds very silly but I always end up in tears but I just want him to know that he's not forgotten and never will be. Breaks my heart, as a dad, that his parents would never had an opportunity to visit his grave.

[Ohio Saint]

Yes Hollywood did BUT a lot of very brave ordinary Americans also gave their lives so please don't forget them.

 

My father in law was one of them (survived the Pacific) Trust me, he never let me forget!

 

FWIW, He also banged on a LOT about how Britain were weak, and desperate for the US to save them. (True in many respects, but said with disdain.) He also liked to tell me that Churchill made the "Fight them on the beaches" speech to tell the Brits that he would not surrender because the majority of the British population wanted to surrender.

 

Actally, he was a major **** in many other aspects of his personality, but I do take the point about the rest of the ordinary Americans and wholeheartedly agree.

Edited 7 June, 2014 by Ohio Saint

[Batman]

Magnificent and incredibly moving. Jim was 15 and serving in the Navy at the landings...

 

Amazing.

[do i not like fizzy pop]

We go the Normandy every couple of years as I like to go exploring and walking/riding the battlefields and we always visit the main British cemetery at Bayeux and as ex-RN I've "adopted" the grave of an unknown British sailor, KIA 06/06/44.

 

We take flowers and stay a while at his side. It sounds very silly but I always end up in tears but I just want him to know that he's not forgotten and never will be. Breaks my heart, as a dad, that his parents would never had an opportunity to visit his grave.

 

That, sir, is magnificent and you should bd applauded.

[Ohio Saint]

Magnificent and incredibly moving. Jim was 15 and serving in the Navy at the landings...

 

Very, very moving. There is just so much to love about that guy too, not least his great stature.

 

Although very different, it immediately reminded of Pink Floyd's "Southampton Dock"

[pap]

Without June 6th, could there be an argument that they might not have stopped at the Rhine?

 

In theory they could have marched to The Atlantic but Stalin's prize was always Eastern Europe.

 

I don't think they'd have had too many problems. There were Communists throughout Europe; Eastern and Western alike. A lot of effort was spent trying to curb their influence in Western Europe in the years that followed. Churchill's position on the Russians was compromised. He warned Roosevelt that they had to get troops East; even talked about opening up a new front in Greece. In the end, he signed over much of Eastern Europe to keep Greece out of Moscow's sphere of influence.

 

If Roosevelt had backed him, things might have been different, but he was very much seen as the junior partner by that time - and the Americans were overly sensitive that they might be being manipulated for the ends of the British Empire, as they were in the First World War. War debts were not repaid, European allies got the spoils and there was a justifiable consensus among Americans that they'd been jipped by their allies.

 

The cumulative effect of events is fascinating, I'll say that.

[badgerx16]

I just wish that somewhere in the media they would acknowledge that Britsh and Allied forces were also busy fighting elsewhere on that day; as well as the above mentioned Russians, Rome was 'liberated' the day before by the US 5th Army, fighting alongside our own 8th Army; plus there has always been the 'forgotten' 14th Army, ( including my Grandad ), fighting the Japanese. D-Day gives a nice focus for ceremony and celebration, and was a brilliantly executed move, but I feel the coverage and reporting does a dis-service to many other brave men and women.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

We go the Normandy every couple of years as I like to go exploring and walking/riding the battlefields and we always visit the main British cemetery at Bayeux and as ex-RN I've "adopted" the grave of an unknown British sailor, KIA 06/06/44.

 

We take flowers and stay a while at his side. It sounds very silly but I always end up in tears but I just want him to know that he's not forgotten and never will be. Breaks my heart, as a dad, that his parents would never had an opportunity to visit his grave.

 

I like that a lot.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

But Patton was nuts.

 

Churchill was keen as well if I recall. Would have stopped the Cold War.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Ultimately, I wonder how decisive D-Day was.

 

There's no doubt that it brought about VE Day a lot sooner; the Soviet charge eastward may have been more problematic had Hitler not had to worry about a Western flank. However, I've a feeling they'd have got there anyway. Stalin was pretty dissatisfied with his Allies efforts on the continent. He felt that too much of the cost of the war, in blood at least, had been borne by the USSR.

 

As it was, while the invasion happened in time to expedite VE day, it was too late to save Europe from the Soviets afterward, despite Churchill's insistence that Western forces rush into areas before the Soviets could secure them.

 

This view does nothing to diminish the bravery of the men involved, and we don't know how effective the earlier charge that Stalin wanted would have been. By the time D-Day happened, Italy was subdued, and the southern flanks were cut off. It was a surer plan for happening in June 1944. I do wonder whether things could have been wrapped up sooner had the Italian plan been shelved in favour of an earlier assault on Western Europe.

 

You understate the impact to the Germans of having to fight on two fronts and just how close the Russian front door was to being kicked and bringing down the whole rotten house.

 

I think you also ignore the significance of the landings on the relationship between the US and us and the confidence it gave us as a nation that we could go on and beat Germany - that is why we still celebrate it so enthusiastically today.

[Saint in Paradise]

Stalin was a bast**d to his own people and was responsible for many many deaths.

IMHO he was just as nasty as that Austrian c***.

[colehillsaint]

We go the Normandy every couple of years as I like to go exploring and walking/riding the battlefields and we always visit the main British cemetery at Bayeux and as ex-RN I've "adopted" the grave of an unknown British sailor, KIA 06/06/44.

 

We take flowers and stay a while at his side. It sounds very silly but I always end up in tears but I just want him to know that he's not forgotten and never will be. Breaks my heart, as a dad, that his parents would never had an opportunity to visit his grave.

 

What a simply great thing to do.