Sour Mash Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 So we've now gone from an ex-banker with no football background making the final football decisions, to a man who has been in football all his career and was consulted by the previous chairman for football input. Why are you taking issue with that? Reed will be consulting with chief scout Paul Mitchell and the new manager. All three are football people. Exactly. Not sure why it is so complicated for some people. Do some people think that Cortese had closely been following the career of Nigel Adkins before appointing him? Or did he draw down on the footballing knowledge of thse around him, same as Kruger is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 We're only about three posts away from someone bringing up the Steven Gerrard thing, aren't we? The Charlton Athletic bulls hit bingo button has already been pressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Exactly. Not sure why it is so complicated for some people. Do some people think that Cortese had closely been following the career of Nigel Adkins before appointing him? Or did he draw down on the footballing knowledge of thse around him, same as Kruger is doing.Agree with you and MLeG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 (edited) Have you seen Les Reed's record with first team club football? Familiarise yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Reed_(football_coach) Why would it automatically be deemed he is the best candidate to be DoF at Saints? Because Reed has been effectively Southampton's director of football since April 2010. The club has been extremely successful these past 4 years with him (and others with a football background) giving Cortese footballing advice. I think you and others should give Reed more credit than he currently gets, as he's played an important role in our revival. Edited 29 May, 2014 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 heard we might be signing iBrahimović Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 (edited) Exactly. Not sure why it is so complicated for some people. Do some people think that Cortese had closely been following the career of Nigel Adkins before appointing him? Or did he draw down on the footballing knowledge of thse around him, same as Kruger is doing. There is a big difference between drawing on somebody's football knowledge to assist with an appointment, and actually entrusting that one person with executive power over the decision. Clearly Cortese took advice from Reed before making a decision, but now Reed would seem to have complete autonomy over Krueger. Bit like Baldini appointing a manager at Spurs without Levy's input. Edited 29 May, 2014 by Toon Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Anyone who doesn't think Reed's position and power have been strengthened, for better or worse, is clueless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Because Reed has been effectively Southampton's director of football since April 2010. The club has been extremely successful these past 4 years with him (and others with a football background) giving Cortese footballing advise. I think you and others should give Reed more credit than he currently gets as he's played an important role in our revival. The grown ups understand that. The kids who were throwing their toys out of the pram about "The Board" now need a new target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Anyone who doesn't think Reed's position and power have been strengthened, for better or worse, is clueless. Exactly this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Anyone who doesn't think Reed's position and power have been strengthened, for better or worse, is clueless. And clueless sums up nicely the precious poppets wetting their beds about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 29 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Because Reed has been effectively Southampton's director of football since April 2010. The club has been extremely successful these past 4 years with him (and others with a football background) giving Cortese footballing advice. I think you and others should give Reed more credit than he currently gets, as he's played an important role in our revival. No he hasn't. He did not set the vision for the first team direction. He did not appoint Managers. He did not handle first team contract negotiations. He had an input in transfers but not the final say. He did not make final decisions. Obviously Cortese valued his input and clearly the work Reed did with the Football Development Centre (Academy, Sports Science etc.) was outstanding. But he was not effectively DoF in the critical aspects of transfers, first team direction, and Managerial appointments - the areas some may say are what a DoF is really measured by. He was just a part of the process. The question I am asking is if he is the most suitable man to be responsible for all things football at Saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Anyone who doesn't think Reed's position and power have been strengthened, for better or worse, is clueless. Anyone who does not think that he has proved his worth to achieve that level of trusted advisor is clueless. As are the people who think that Reed will not discuss any details with the Board, Football Department Heads etc. (Especially after RK SAID they will wait for the new manager BEFORE making any other football decisions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 LLP, you bring up Reed's wiki page and it shows him as being, amongst other roles, Technical Director at the FA (whatever that means). Does that count for nothing? As for the rest of his "CV", save for Charlton, I think it actually reads quite well. What exactly is your problem with his experience? That he hasn't been a manager for more than a short while and that when he was it was a disaster? You might not have noticed, but he isn't going (yet) for the manager's job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 29 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 29 May, 2014 LLP, you bring up Reed's wiki page and it shows him as being, amongst other roles, Technical Director at the FA (whatever that means). Does that count for nothing? As for the rest of his "CV", save for Charlton, I think it actually reads quite well. What exactly is your problem with his experience? That he hasn't been a manager for more than a short while and that when he was it was a disaster? You might not have noticed, but he isn't going (yet) for the manager's job. His best work is clearly shown as when he worked in the background at a club a technical level with things like the Academy etc. Which is exactly what his foremost role was with us during Cortese's reign. And he has done excellent work at Saints - anyone can see that. His time at Charlton does not concern me - he won't be Manager at Saints. His time at Fulham as Director of Football is concerning. He joined the summer that Lawrie Sanchez did. I think we all know how that turned out... Then he couldn't get another job in football and helped out a mate at Bishops Stortford. And then he joined Saints. His body of work at Saints is very good, but he was not DoF here. But I'll return back to my question. Is he now qualified to be DoF (and predominately *the* decision maker at Board level for all things football related) for a club like Saints who have European aspirations? Time will tell but I am concerned enough to ask the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Whilst reed has no doubt increased his influence, their are still checks and balances that exist. For instance, bet he can't sign a £10m check without the CEO CFO and KL signing it off. Ditto with contract offers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 29 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Whilst reed has no doubt increased his influence, their are still checks and balances that exist. For instance, bet he can't sign a £10m check without the CEO CFO and KL signing it off. Ditto with contract offers Of course, but with no other football experience on the Board on what basis can they challenge him? If we had a CEO like John Williams then at least his experience would be more comforting and offer some balance and insight rather than having a single individual on the Board who has football experience and appears to have a lot of authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Anyone who doesn't think Reed's position and power have been strengthened, for better or worse, is clueless. Good job that no-one has suggested that then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 The grown ups understand that. The kids who were throwing their toys out of the pram about "The Board" now need a new target. It does seem like this unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 (edited) Anyone who does not think that he has proved his worth to achieve that level of trusted advisor is clueless. As are the people who think that Reed will not discuss any details with the Board, Football Department Heads etc. (Especially after RK SAID they will wait for the new manager BEFORE making any other football decisions) Not losing any sleep or knocking Reed's success. Just saying that its naive to think that he isn't more powerful than before.Thought one of the criticisms of the previous regime was the lack of checks and balances and the need for more accountability. There is no reason why RK can't provide that challenge over time but not right here, right now. He'll need months before he can properly understand the club and the industry - indeed he may never get up to speed if he's happy to confine himself to the commercial side. We'll never know why Dodd and Williams were sacked -perhaps there were decent grounds, perhaps there weren't; but Reed probably never found it easier to cut them loose either way. This is small beer compared to the appointment of a new manager -and you would hope that process is as rigorous and free from groupthink as possible. Edited 29 May, 2014 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Directors of Football have worked wonders at many clubs. Off the top of my head, they have done wonders for Spurs, Portsmouth, Liverpool, Newcastle, Norwich..... Bullsh*t position that doesn't work in my humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Directors of Football have worked wonders at many clubs. Off the top of my head, they have done wonders for Spurs, Portsmouth, Liverpool, Newcastle, Norwich..... Bullsh*t position that doesn't work in my humble opinion. Its got nothing to do with the title and everything to do with how you structure a club. Would you really have wanted Pochettino overseeing the design of the new Staplewood, recruitment of scholars, finding new signings places to live and get their visa sorted - or would you have preferred him to focus on the first team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Just a thought on all this. Why is ralph any less qualified or capable that cortese to lead the board. At least ralph has a sporting background which is far more than cortese had. The personnel at the top are broadly still the same otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Directors of Football have worked wonders at many clubs. Off the top of my head, they have done wonders for Spurs, Portsmouth, Liverpool, Newcastle, Norwich..... Bullsh*t position that doesn't work in my humble opinion. Failed badly at Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern, PSG as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Directors of Football have worked wonders at many clubs. Off the top of my head, they have done wonders for Spurs, Portsmouth, Liverpool, Newcastle, Norwich..... Bullsh*t position that doesn't work in my humble opinion. Used in Europe to great effect, but yeah in England.... Not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 (edited) Not losing any sleep or knocking Reed's success. Just saying that its naive to think that he isn't more powerful than before.Thought one of the criticisms of the previous regime was the lack of checks and balances and the need for more accountability. There is no reason why RK can't provide that challenge over time but not right here, right now. He'll need months before he can properly understand the club and the industry - indeed he may never get up to speed if he's happy to confine himself to the commercial side. We'll never know why Dodd and Williams were sacked -perhaps there were decent grounds, perhaps there weren't; but Reed probably never found it easier to cut them loose either way. This is small beer compared to the appointment of a new manager -and you would hope that process is as rigorous and free from groupthink as possible. Top post. This is about the organization of power at St. Mary's and not a criticism of Reed. Cortese was often depicted as the autocrat, but now we have someone in Reed who has almost complete control over footballing matters. The very reason for the board re-structuring was meant to allow for increased accountability - but when it comes to decisions like firing Dodd and Williams or hiring a new manager, who currently has the authority and footballing knowledge to legitmately challenge him? There was not even a statement about the sackings which really flies in the face of the openness and transparency initially promised by the board. It seems as if he was free to fire them without justifying his actions (which perhaps were sound reasons), and then the issue was pretty much brushed under the carpet and only tacitly acknowledged by Krueger in his recent interview. The fact that Krueger just deferred to Reed when discussing potential managerial candidates in the Echo indicates that it really is the decision of one man. Let's just hope it is a good one! Edited 29 May, 2014 by Toon Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Top post. This is about the organization of power at St. Mary's and not a criticism of Reed. Cortese was often depicted as the autocrat, but now we have someone in Reed who has almost complete control over footballing matters. The very reason for the board re-structuring was meant to allow for increased accountability - but when it comes to decisions like firing Dodd and Williams or hiring a new manager, who currently has the authority and footballing knowledge to legitmately challenge him? There was not even a statement about the sackings which really flies in the face of the openness and transparency initially promised by the board. It seems as if he was free to fire them without justifying his actions (which perhaps were sound reasons), and then the issue was pretty much brushed under the carpet and only tacitly acknowledged by Krueger in his recent interview. The fact that Krueger just deferred to Reed when discussing potential managerial candidates in the Echo indicates that it really is the decision of one man. Let's just hope it is a good one! No facts + supposition + poor analysis = your conclusion. Way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Just a thought on all this. Why is ralph any less qualified or capable that cortese to lead the board. At least ralph has a sporting background which is far more than cortese had. The personnel at the top are broadly still the same otherwise. Perhaps no less qualified, but Cortese had the luxury of bedding himself in when we were very much out of the public spotlight. It is fair to say that Krueger will be dealing with a lot more issues than Cortese would have encountered in his first season in League 1 just because of the frenzied nature of the Premier League and all the attendant media speculation and pressures. Cortese had a lot more time and space to set out his vision and gradually progress the club. Ralph is in at the deep end and needs to learn fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 No facts + supposition + poor analysis = your conclusion. Way to go. There is some absolute gold on the forum at present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 No facts + supposition + poor analysis = your conclusion. Way to go. 1) Has Cortese been previously portrayed as an autocrat? 2) Was accountability a big part in KL's reasoning for restructuring the board? 3) Was there a statement released about Dodd and Williams? 4) Did Ralph defer to Reed when talking about potential managers in the Echo interview? Yes, I'm making it all up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 There is a big difference between drawing on somebody's football knowledge to assist with an appointment, and actually entrusting that one person with executive power over the decision. Clearly Cortese took advice from Reed before making a decision, but now Reed would seem to have complete autonomy over Krueger. Bit like Baldini appointing a manager at Spurs without Levy's input. Which on Levy's record would be probably be a good thing... Seriously though, I think you're reading a bit too much into it. Reed is clearly more qualified than Krueger and the others to be in charge of this. If Krueger is as organisation minded as he seems to be then he'll ask Reed to make a case for each candidate on the shortlist detailing why he (Reed) believes each one can take the club forward within their structures (financial and organisational). I think it comes down to whether the director of football is good at their job or not. On the whole Reed seems to be doing a good job, wouldn't you say? Plus he has been involved with the club for five years or so now - from the outside it seems like he's earned that trust. Surely this process is better than the decision should be made by a Canadian ice hockey guy who has been involved with football for about 6 months and who would almost certainly have to contact an outside agency (like Lowe apparently did with Wotte and Poortvliet)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Bit like Baldini appointing a manager at Spurs without Levy's input. Baldini is going to get the push now isn't he? Probably didn't have much input on Mauricio's appointment, obviously wanted one of his italian cronies in the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 There is some absolute gold on the forum at present. These kids are utter idiots. They seem to think Reed is making every single footballing decision by himself with no oversight. I see they also want another statement, this time about Dodds & Williams, this despite neither side saying anything for legal reasons. Utter helmets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 (edited) Which on Levy's record would be probably be a good thing... Seriously though, I think you're reading a bit too much into it. Reed is clearly more qualified than Krueger and the others to be in charge of this. If Krueger is as organisation minded as he seems to be then he'll ask Reed to make a case for each candidate on the shortlist detailing why he (Reed) believes each one can take the club forward within their structures (financial and organisational). I think it comes down to whether the director of football is good at their job or not. On the whole Reed seems to be doing a good job, wouldn't you say? Plus he has been involved with the club for five years or so now - from the outside it seems like he's earned that trust. Surely this process is better than the decision should be made by a Canadian ice hockey guy who has been involved with football for about 6 months and who would almost certainly have to contact an outside agency (like Lowe apparently did with Wotte and Poortvliet)? Yes I agree with most of this, and refreshing to get someone's actual opinion on the matter and not just some sniping from the sidelines. I've always said Reed has done an excellent job and I would definitely put a lot more trust in him to make the decision than RK. I'd hope that those checks that you describe between RK and LR are enforced - however, you could question whether RK has any legitimate authority to disagree with Reed if he was insitent on a particular appointment. From his interviews so far Ralph seems happy just to defer to Reed on footballing matters - openly labelling himself 'just the hockey guy' - so I don't know how any theoretical checks will actually work in practice. It is quite unprecedented for a DoF to have quite so much power at one club though, even if he has earned that trust. The Dodd/Williams sackings and the manner in which they were brushed under the carpet, does indicate that the levels of accountability and transparency are not quite what we were promised with the board re-structuring either. Edited 29 May, 2014 by Toon Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 (edited) These kids are utter idiots. They seem to think Reed is making every single footballing decision by himself with no oversight. I see they also want another statement, this time about Dodds & Williams, this despite neither side saying anything for legal reasons. Utter helmets. Nobody has said that Reed makes every single decision by himself - only that he is more powerful than he was before. The same thing happens everywhere. You decide whether its a good thing or not. Edited 29 May, 2014 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 These kids are utter idiots. They seem to think Reed is making every single footballing decision by himself with no oversight. I see they also want another statement, this time about Dodds & Williams, this despite neither side saying anything for legal reasons. Utter helmets. What and continually resorting to insults makes you sound intelligent? You need to calm down a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Baldini is going to get the push now isn't he? Probably didn't have much input on Mauricio's appointment, obviously wanted one of his italian cronies in the job. Probably, but not the point I was making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Nobody has said that the makes every single decision by himself - only that he is more powerful than he was before we have someone in Reed who has almost complete control over footballing matters......It is quite unprecedented for a DoF to have quite so much power at one club.........the fact that Krueger just deferred to Reed when discussing potential managerial candidates in the Echo indicates that it really is the decision of one man.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 ... I believe it will be his decision on managerial appointments. That is different to 'every single decision' at the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 ... And??? Slow down and read what was said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 And??? Tim are you running before you can walk again? ... Its what I thought you'd grasp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 What and continually resorting to insults makes you sound intelligent? You need to calm down a bit. I'm delightfully calm. It's you who seems to be blubbing about everything to do with the club. First you blubbed that you weren't been given any information and now your blubbing about Reed. Pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Kerplunk Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 definitely encouraged by what he said, clearly we will lose some players but maybe, just maybe, we will use th emoney wisely and get solid replacements and additions. With £50m from Shaw and Lallana leaving, that should cover it plus anything else they want to spend. As long as the ambition is big, which getting top calbre people in behind the scenes as well as on the football side indicates, then the future still seems bright. Just hope we get a manager who can develop the team spirit, and technical elements in the way Poch did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 And??? Slow down and read what was said. Unbelievable. This guy wades in without properly engaging or offering his own opinion, but still deriding it as 'poor analysis'. What we have both said is pretty mild (what are the legitimate checks on Reed's power over footballing matters and staff recruitment?) but it seems to be a bit too much for some to handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 I'm delightfully calm. It's you who seems to be blubbing about everything to do with the club. First you blubbed that you weren't been given any information and now your blubbing about Reed. Pathetic. You sure? Every one of your posts seems to contain some sort of abuse. Hate to encounter you when you are angry. Feel free to reduce what I've said about Reed as 'blubbing', you obviously haven't understood the point being made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckenham Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Just watched the 15 minute video (heres the link if it isn't already posted, I haven't read the thread - ) He has an amazing knack for answering a totally different question to the one asked of him. Some very promising phrases in there, but it is a wonder that he could talk for so long and say so little. Krueger would make a great member on Saintsweb, it would seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Understood but it appears the new Manager will be the choice of Les Reed. It appears player signings will be the choice of Les Reed. It appears player sales will be the choice of Les Reed. It appears player contracts will be done by Les Reed. It appears contract re-negotiations with existing players will be done by Les Reed. We're about to be club who on a sporting level is the image of Les Reed. Nobody has said that Reed makes every single decision by himself - only that he is more powerful than he was before. The same thing happens everywhere. You decide whether its a good thing or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 He has an amazing knack for answering a totally different question to the one asked of him. Some very promising phrases in there, but it is a wonder that he could talk for so long and say so little. Completely agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMarlin Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 Used in Europe to great effect, but yeah in England.... Not so much. So who is wrong? English clubs haven't exactly cornered the market in Champions League titles recently, for what is the self-styled best league in the world. We are still a bit insular in this country, not helped by Luddite old-style managers who bleat at the slightest hint of a change to their protected-species status, claiming interference and that they should be left alone to manage. I'm sure you can put names to faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CylonKing Posted 29 May, 2014 Share Posted 29 May, 2014 I'm sure you can put names to faces. A strange, saggy, hang-dog face perchance? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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