Staplewood training ground update

[Toadhall Saint]

lol, I know... every so often I like to try my luck and see if people actually take a step back and consider what they're coming out with. It's usually in vain but hey, at least I gave it a go.

 

Minty the ultimate moderator - gets my vote all day long! :-)

[holepuncture]

Lemme help clear up some of the ignorant bull**** from some of the Cortese haters here.

 

The training ground would have been constructed under a JCT contract, probably JCT05 or possibly JCT11, either way under a JCT contract it's pretty much much impossible to run up the sort of overspend on overheads alone that Turks, Buctootum etc. are alluding too.

 

The 'Prelims' are submitted during the tender period agreed in advance as part of the contract and short of physically ripping work out and starting again will be what the Contractor will receive for delays etc. On a 15m Contract this would be in the low thousands per week of claimed and proven delay. Contracts just don't get signed if a Contractors Prelim figure is so high to account for the sort of overhead overspend that the blinkered are making out.

 

The bottom line is, with additional design fees and contractors prelims we probably spent around 1 - 2mil more then we would have done if the final design had been built from scratch and that's comfortably mitigated by the rapidly changing and improving circumstances the Club found it's self in during that time.

 

The easy decision would have been to have left the original design that was put together in league one alone...The brave and once again correct decision was to seize the opportunity while it was available and provide us with the facilities worthy of a top 10 premier league Club

 

Absolutely, good post.

[Pastor Patrón]

So we spent £30mill on an ugly wooden shed and some grass. Bargain

[djharvey]

So we spent £30mill on an ugly wooden shed and some grass. Bargain

Don't forget the oversize tent!

[Special K]

Lemme help clear up some of the ignorant bull**** from some of the Cortese haters here.

 

The training ground would have been constructed under a JCT contract, probably JCT05 or possibly JCT11, either way under a JCT contract it's pretty much much impossible to run up the sort of overspend on overheads alone that Turks, Buctootum etc. are alluding too.

 

The 'Prelims' are submitted during the tender period agreed in advance as part of the contract and short of physically ripping work out and starting again will be what the Contractor will receive for delays etc. On a 15m Contract this would be in the low thousands per week of claimed and proven delay. Contracts just don't get signed if a Contractors Prelim figure is so high to account for the sort of overhead overspend that the blinkered are making out.

 

The bottom line is, with additional design fees and contractors prelims we probably spent around 1 - 2mil more then we would have done if the final design had been built from scratch and that's comfortably mitigated by the rapidly changing and improving circumstances the Club found it's self in during that time.

 

The easy decision would have been to have left the original design that was put together in league one alone...The brave and once again correct decision was to seize the opportunity while it was available and provide us with the facilities worthy of a top 10 premier league Club

 

Prelims are only (sometimes) a starting figure for assessing Prolongation and Loss and Expense claims under a JCT contract. If you've ever got involved with trying to settle a L&E claim for legitimate Client delay, you'll realise it is a lot more involved than simply assessing the site preliminary costs per week and adding it pro rata. I can tell you from experience it certainly isn't that simple.

 

I know one of the site team who told me of a few Cortese "pearlers" during the build duration (e.g. having drawings delivered and then refusing to open them because they were folded and not rolled up! and subsequently delaying making an important decision), but i've not spoken to him for a good few months. I may try and find out a bit more on the over spend. I don't doubt that a lot of extra work was instructed, but to double the cost of a project takes some doing, so i suspect it's not all spec upgrades and new turf.

 

And just because on the face of it, something is affordable, doesn't make it good value for money.

[Goatboy]

Minty the ultimate moderator - gets my vote all day long! :-)

 

Agree

[Goatboy]

Prelims are only (sometimes) a starting figure for assessing Prolongation and Loss and Expense claims under a JCT contract. If you've ever got involved with trying to settle a L&E claim for legitimate Client delay, you'll realise it is a lot more involved than simply assessing the site preliminary costs per week and adding it pro rata. I can tell you from experience it certainly isn't that simple.

 

I know one of the site team who told me of a few Cortese "pearlers" during the build duration (e.g. having drawings delivered and then refusing to open them because they were folded and not rolled up! and subsequently delaying making an important decision), but i've not spoken to him for a good few months. I may try and find out a bit more on the over spend. I don't doubt that a lot of extra work was instructed, but to double the cost of a project takes some doing, so i suspect it's not all spec upgrades and new turf.

 

And just because on the face of it, something is affordable, doesn't make it good value for money.

 

I could bore you all day with how NC managed to spunk money away on his own personal whims. Dealing with contractors in Italy is plainly very different.

[Special K]

I could bore you all day with how NC managed to spunk money away on his own personal whims. Dealing with contractors in Italy is plainly very different.

 

Did you work on the site then Goaty?

[hutch]

Prelims are only (sometimes) a starting figure for assessing Prolongation and Loss and Expense claims under a JCT contract. If you've ever got involved with trying to settle a L&E claim for legitimate Client delay, you'll realise it is a lot more involved than simply assessing the site preliminary costs per week and adding it pro rata. I can tell you from experience it certainly isn't that simple.

 

I know one of the site team who told me of a few Cortese "pearlers" during the build duration (e.g. having drawings delivered and then refusing to open them because they were folded and not rolled up! and subsequently delaying making an important decision), but i've not spoken to him for a good few months. I may try and find out a bit more on the over spend. I don't doubt that a lot of extra work was instructed, but to double the cost of a project takes some doing, so i suspect it's not all spec upgrades and new turf.

 

And just because on the face of it, something is affordable, doesn't make it good value for money.

I would start off by ditching all of the contract rates and prices, including prelims, due to change in scope, and repricing the actual job from scratch. On that basis I would guess we've paid around 30% more than if we had retendered the job. But we would have had to pay the contractor to terminate his original contract, and saved about 6 months.

 

My view, once we decided not to build the original project after signing the contract due to huge change in circumstances, we've probably come out of it OK So has the contractor.

 

Most people love to knock builders, on the basis that you can always get a cheaper quote for everything. Try running a construction company.

[Special K]

I would start off by ditching all of the contract rates and prices, including prelims, due to change in scope, and repricing the actual job from scratch. On that basis I would guess we've paid around 30% more than if we had retendered the job. But we would have had to pay the contractor to terminate his original contract, and saved about 6 months.

 

My view, once we decided not to build the original project after signing the contract due to huge change in circumstances, we've probably come out of it OK So has the contractor.

 

Most people love to knock builders, on the basis that you can always get a cheaper quote for everything. Try running a construction company.

 

I do run a construction company and have for the last 5 years, as well as, previously, working as a consultant on the employers side. This point I was trying to make on SG's post was that site "over run" costs are not simply a case of pro-rata addition of site prelim costs - there are many other factors that go to make up the heads of claim for loss and expense when there is a valid EOT - something it sounds like you are familiar with, hutch.

 

Your post is interesting, but any client would be foolish to terminate a contract where there is no breach, just because he has changed his mind on the scope of works - no benefit in that at all. It is always preferable to agree variations with the guys contracted to do the original works, or simply tender the new works separately. It sounds like the original project was completed, but the variations have skewed the cost. I don't know the extent of them, but on a D&B contract (which I believe this was) with a (presumably) tight set of ER's, you've got to go some to double the original contract sum. I suspect a lot of the cost was wasted due to prolongation, but this is only an assumption.

 

I agree entirely with your last sentence - we are an easy target for being knocked. I've lost a good few jobs over price, only for the selected contractor to go bust, f**k up the works or just do a poor job, and the client or CA to then whinge that they didn't choose someone else.

[Turkish]

Prelims are only (sometimes) a starting figure for assessing Prolongation and Loss and Expense claims under a JCT contract. If you've ever got involved with trying to settle a L&E claim for legitimate Client delay, you'll realise it is a lot more involved than simply assessing the site preliminary costs per week and adding it pro rata. I can tell you from experience it certainly isn't that simple.

 

I know one of the site team who told me of a few Cortese "pearlers" during the build duration (e.g. having drawings delivered and then refusing to open them because they were folded and not rolled up! and subsequently delaying making an important decision), but i've not spoken to him for a good few months. I may try and find out a bit more on the over spend. I don't doubt that a lot of extra work was instructed, but to double the cost of a project takes some doing, so i suspect it's not all spec upgrades and new turf.

 

And just because on the face of it, something is affordable, doesn't make it good value for money.

 

This is true about the site plans! I know one of the site team too and he told me that one. Another classic was NC refusing to wear any safety gear on site, saying when asked too "I am paying for this. I will wear what I want" people can say what they want but knowing someone who worked on the project pretty much from start to finish in a management role I was told some of the goings on and why the cost escalated so much, also that NC was 'an absolute c*nt' carry on dismissing it as made up from someone with an agenda though :lol:

[hutch]

I do run a construction company and have for the last 5 years, as well as, previously, working as a consultant on the employers side. This point I was trying to make on SG's post was that site "over run" costs are not simply a case of pro-rata addition of site prelim costs - there are many other factors that go to make up the heads of claim for loss and expense when there is a valid EOT - something it sounds like you are familiar with, hutch.

 

Your post is interesting, but any client would be foolish to terminate a contract where there is no breach, just because he has changed his mind on the scope of works - no benefit in that at all. It is always preferable to agree variations with the guys contracted to do the original works, or simply tender the new works separately. It sounds like the original project was completed, but the variations have skewed the cost. I don't know the extent of them, but on a D&B contract (which I believe this was) with a (presumably) tight set of ER's, you've got to go some to double the original contract sum. I suspect a lot of the cost was wasted due to prolongation, but this is only an assumption.

 

I agree entirely with your last sentence - we are an easy target for being knocked. I've lost a good few jobs over price, only for the selected contractor to go bust, f**k up the works or just do a poor job, and the client or CA to then whinge that they didn't choose someone else.

I think I was agreeing with you. I intended to anyway. This would not have been simply time- related extended prelims.

[Sevvy]

not always bro, if you had bird with small tits it would be cheaper to get a whole new bird with big tits than to add to and extend the tits of ur existing bird.

 

trust, i have looked into this in great depth

 

Bearsy, that is just brilliant.

[Convict Colony]

I know for a fact the cost increased as key people were paying off some of the builders for extra's.

 

[Batman]

This is true about the site plans! I know one of the site team too and he told me that one. Another classic was NC refusing to wear any safety gear on site, saying when asked too "I am paying for this. I will wear what I want" people can say what they want but knowing someone who worked on the project pretty much from start to finish in a management role I was told some of the goings on and why the cost escalated so much, also that NC was 'an absolute c*nt' carry on dismissing it as made up from someone with an agenda though :lol:

 

I'm sure kat sanctioned every penny. Seeing as NC was just an employee

[Goatboy]

Did you work on the site then Goaty?

 

St Marys. Not Staplewood (though I know someone working there).

Edited 7 June, 2014 by Goatboy

[The Kraken]

I could bore you all day with how NC managed to spunk money away on his own personal whims. Dealing with contractors in Italy is plainly very different.

In that respect Goaty, I can guarantee you wouldn't. The titbits I've heard about his peculiarities on a day by day basis just crack me up, he's such a bizarre little man!

[Goatboy]

One of the funniest things I heard him say was:

"I don't like red. It looks cheap."

I nearly spat tea all over him.

[egg]

...

Edited 9 June, 2014 by egg

[Ohio Saint]

I know for a fact the cost increased as key people were paying off some of the builders for extra's.

 

 

 

4 million wasted on a dubious boob job then.

[benjii]

One of the funniest things I heard him say was:

"I don't like red. It looks cheap."

I nearly spat tea all over him.

 

Yeah, but he's right. Exhibit some taste for goodness sake.

[Turkish]

She didn't. He pushed the budget to £38m. Of that £4m was waste. Of the rest he wanted a "four seasons" type spec. No wonder he was given a nudge.

 

What's going to happen to his personal lift now?

[Matthew Le God]

Today...

 

 

 

 

Edited 9 June, 2014 by Matthew Le God

[egg]

What's going to happen to his personal lift now?

 

Ha! Not sure about that one Del. All I've been told is "he wanted the four seasons" and that £4 mil was wasted.

[Batman]

Kat should be asked questions to why she sanctioned such over spend. Instead of the money going on players

[Turkish]

Kat should be asked questions to why she sanctioned such over spend. Instead of the money going on players

 

You just don't get it do yo Brett. Go and peel some potatoes

[buctootim]

Kat should be asked questions to why she sanctioned such over spend. Instead of the money going on players

 

She trusted him. He abused that trust. Not tricky is it?

[Batman]

She trusted him. He abused that trust. Not tricky is it?

 

She continually let him spend so much money? She must have signed off on it, seeing as she owned the club for 4 years or so. He was just another employee after all

[Mallagroth]

She continually let him spend so much money? She must have signed off on it, seeing as she owned the club for 4 years or so. He was just another employee after all

 

I'm fairly sure she has dealt with this now?

[angelman]

She trusted him. He abused that trust. Not tricky is it?

 

Sorry but I am a little lost with all the innuendo. It seems to be being made out that NC was feathering his own nest away from the club, rather than spending the money improving SFC. Is that really what people are intimating or have I got the wrong end of the stick? I understand the waste bit, but that's not really abusing trust if it is spent on the club.

[ericb]

Kat should be asked questions to why she sanctioned such over spend. Instead of the money going on players

 

i'd personally much rather we spent money on the academy and training ground than players in the here and now. It's that short term thinking that got the skates where they are now!

[Batman]

I'm fairly sure she has dealt with this now?

 

We don't know why he left. Maybe it had nothing to do with finances

[Bearsy]

I spose if some of the rumours is true I.e. that he spent club money on building his own private toilet complete with child sized porcelain urinal & gold plated loo brush, then that is the sort of thing they mean

[Turkish]

We don't know why he left. Maybe it had nothing to do with finances

 

What was it to do with then, underperformance on the playing side?

[Batman]

What was it to do with then, underperformance on the playing side?

 

Could be many things. But if you keep repeating one thing, sooner or later it will be true

[Turkish]

Could be many things. But if you keep repeating one thing, sooner or later it will be true

 

So the comments about the 'difficult financial position we have inherited' weren't a clue?

[CB Fry]

Could be many things. But if you keep repeating one thing, sooner or later it will be true

 

What is true, is that he quit.

[Batman]

So the comments about the 'difficult financial position we have inherited' weren't a clue?

 

Followed by lots of "we are in the best state we have ever been in"

 

And loads of reports that a transfer kitty of £50m+

[Turkish]

Followed by lots of "we are in the best state we have ever been in"

 

And loads of reports that a transfer kitty of £50m+

 

What are the other things it could be then Brett? I mean its been claimed a lot on here that he quit because Kat refused to fund his champions league push, yet a £50m kitty is more than he'd had he last two summers.

[Mowgli]

Thanks for posting the pictures MLG. I really think this will give a big wow factor to potential transfers. Would be funny if we actually managed to replace departing stars with even better players

[Frank's cousin]

What are the other things it could be then Brett? I mean its been claimed a lot on here that he quit because Kat refused to fund his champions league push, yet a £50m kitty is more than he'd had he last two summers.

 

.... So you believe that there IS a 50mil transfer kitty? Seriously, you are happy to believe a 'positive' media speculative news story? Haha.

 

... And you believe we we're in a difficult financial position? Really? 60mil spread over 2-3 years where 30mil is infrastructure is not a bad situation... Unless you get relegated....suggests that the only 'difficult' financial situation we will face is if we get relegated after having sold the spine of the side one go...

 

The only facts we know about are that NC was a TRUSTED friend of Marcus. He was an advisor to his businesses. When he sadly died and after an extended probate period , KL inherited and slowly closed and shut down all of the. Mali group of companies - in which many lost their jobs... NC was removed from the the Mali exec by KL... Is it not reasonable to assume this whole fall out goes beyond SFC, and began with Mali?

 

The spend on Staplewood, and transfers versus our turnover is not 'beyond' control - you know it, I know it, but it suits your continued joke to rubbish a bloke you did not like... But for you where 'Mongs' and other 'disabilities' are fair comedy game, it's hardly surprising.... You are the classic case of someone who thinks if you shout loud enough and often enough, the weak will believe... Whilst sni ggering like a schoolboy from behind the keyboard that they take you so seriously....

[egg]

.... So you believe that there IS a 50mil transfer kitty? Seriously, you are happy to believe a 'positive' media speculative news story? Haha.

 

... And you believe we we're in a difficult financial position? Really? 60mil spread over 2-3 years where 30mil is infrastructure is not a bad situation... Unless you get relegated....suggests that the only 'difficult' financial situation we will face is if we get relegated after having sold the spine of the side one go...

 

The only facts we know about are that NC was a TRUSTED friend of Marcus. He was an advisor to his businesses. When he sadly died and after an extended probate period , KL inherited and slowly closed and shut down all of the. Mali group of companies - in which many lost their jobs... NC was removed from the the Mali exec by KL... Is it not reasonable to assume this whole fall out goes beyond SFC, and began with Mali?

 

The spend on Staplewood, and transfers versus our turnover is not 'beyond' control - you know it, I know it, but it suits your continued joke to rubbish a bloke you did not like... But for you where 'Mongs' and other 'disabilities' are fair comedy game, it's hardly surprising.... You are the classic case of someone who thinks if you shout loud enough and often enough, the weak will believe... Whilst sni ggering like a schoolboy from behind the keyboard that they take you so seriously....

 

It's a fact that there was significant overspend on staplewood and that millions were wasted. NC did not jump cos he wanted to from what I hear.

[Frank's cousin]

It's a fact that there was significant overspend on staplewood and that millions were wasted. NC did not jump cos he wanted to from what I hear.

 

and therein lies the problem .... To many 'from what I have heards' with no source and nothing to substantiate the rumour.... Often from many who have previously indicated their position... So it would be naive to believe it... It's got nothing to do with not wanting to believe it, seriously, but it's all to do with the simple fact that it's all speculation, from those who have not hidden their dislike for NC...

[CB Fry]

.... So you believe that there IS a 50mil transfer kitty? Seriously, you are happy to believe a 'positive' media speculative news story? Haha.

 

... And you believe we we're in a difficult financial position? Really? 60mil spread over 2-3 years where 30mil is infrastructure is not a bad situation... Unless you get relegated....suggests that the only 'difficult' financial situation we will face is if we get relegated after having sold the spine of the side one go..,.

 

and therein lies the problem .... To many 'from what I have heards' with no source and nothing to substantiate the rumour.... Often from many who have previously indicated their position...

 

The club said, specifically, and on the record that they "inherited a difficult financial situation".

 

Not Turkish. Not me. Not "too many" people on here saying "from what I have heard". The club said it. "Fact", "evidence" and all the other "proof" you like to squinny about when people say things like you don't like.

 

Looks like the only idle speculation and unsubstantiated rumours is coming from you.

 

Anyway this is a thread about the training ground development, not your pi ss weak attempts to win long lost arguments.

[aintforever]

and therein lies the problem .... To many 'from what I have heards' with no source and nothing to substantiate the rumour.... Often from many who have previously indicated their position... So it would be naive to believe it... It's got nothing to do with not wanting to believe it' date=' seriously, but it's all to do with the simple fact that it's all speculation, from those who have not hidden their dislike for NC...[/quote']

 

So do we have to wait for an official club statement about the cost of Cortese's gold plated toilet furniture before we can comment?

 

Things like this will always be speculation/rumour because it's often the only information we get.

[CB Fry]

So do we have to wait for an official club statement about the cost of Cortese's gold plated toilet furniture before we can comment?

 

Things like this will always be speculation/rumour because it's often the only information we get.

 

Only Frank is allowed to speculate, as he does in every single one of his arse - aching rambles. Baseless, pointless guesswork speculation in every single post. Only he manages to skillfully weave in his trade mark pompous denunciation of everyone else speculating like the hypocritical arse he is.

 

Note the tour de force of speculation laying into verbatim statements from club officials. Masterful.

[egg]

and therein lies the problem .... To many 'from what I have heards' with no source and nothing to substantiate the rumour.... Often from many who have previously indicated their position... So it would be naive to believe it....

 

I have never expressed an opinion on NC. I am not speculating. I'm stating facts as explained by someone who knows them. The info is 100%.

 

It's naive not to believe it..

[Fowllyd]

Ha! Not sure about that one Del. All I've been told is "he wanted the four seasons" and that £4 mil was wasted.

 

Well if Cortese was willing to pay that much for a pizza, it's hardly surprising he overspent on the training ground.

[Batman]

I have never expressed an opinion on NC. I am not speculating. I'm stating facts as explained by someone who knows them. The info is 100%.

 

It's naive not to believe it..

 

Ah, the 100% "fact" from a mate

[egg]

Ah, the 100% "fact" from a mate

 

I'm not sure why I'm indulging you, but certain of us have mates who dine at the top table. Believe what you want mate.

Edited 9 June, 2014 by egg