More UKIP bother

[trousers]

I am beginning to pity UKIP - they have the combined might of the three main parties smear departments lined up against them. Every utterance they make is being spun to create a fuss - (although they are not exactly helping themselves ). They are media amateurs and are being take apart by the media savvy Tories, Labs and Libs.

 

Isn't it the "media savvy Tories, Labs and Libs" slick PR that tends to steer people to UKIP in the first place, in a sort of back-firing kinda way?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I liked the "you can't do a calypso with a Surrey accent" defence.

 

Then don't do a f**king calypso!

 

Indeed, as you said - silliness all round I feel.

 

That said, the subsequent reaction will most likely play into the "This country has gone to the dogs thanks to PC madness" morons running around supporting UKIP.

Edited 22 October, 2014 by KelvinsRightGlove
feel not fell ffs

[Sour Mash]

Why? How well do you Bath? have you lived here? Please explain what a 'hub of multi-cultural immigration' is. BANES (the Census district for Bath, 2011 Census), with the exception of Chinese, is not in the top 25% for most ethnic groups it is in the mid range for all others. It is also worth noting that as BANES apart form Bath and Keynsham is essentially Rural the actual figures for the City of Bath are likely to be higher, this tends to support my claim that the City has a healthy multi national population, the one exception is that Gypsy or Irish Traveller are in the bottom 25% I assume they all down the M27. Interesting to know the corresponding figures for Southampton. Sorry if this bursts your common none Bathonian perception of my beautiful city.

I can't take you remotely seriously. If you're looking at Census results, then over 90% of the Bath population are classified as "White British", with the largest other "Ethnic Group" being "White: Other White" at 3.8%

[moonraker]

I can't take you remotely seriously. If you're looking at Census results, then over 90% of the Bath population are classified as "White British", with the largest other "Ethnic Group" being "White: Other White" at 3.8%

 

So what should it say? and what are you basing your assertions on? For England and Wales 86% of the population are classified as "White British and White other" so Bath is not exactly bucking the national trend by being a Bastion of White Britishness. Only London and the West Midlands are signifcantly different.

It was not about ethnicity is was about nationality and my statement referred to a healthy multi national population not a healthy multi ethnic population, the census quite clearly illustrates that BANES has a healthy multi national population.

 

You didn’t answer my questions How well do you know Bath? have you lived here? what is a hub of multi-cultural immigration? provide some answers and I might take you seriously

Edited 22 October, 2014 by moonraker

[CB Saint]

Isn't it the "media savvy Tories, Labs and Libs" slick PR that tends to steer people to UKIP in the first place, in a sort of back-firing kinda way?

 

I think if they keep up the "UKIP are racists" line, then there is a very real chance they will do that. Instead of driving people away from UKIP, it may just harden peoples resolve against the mainstream parties.

[Sour Mash]

So what should it say? and what are you basing your assertions on? For England and Wales 86% of the population are classified as "White British and White other" so Bath is not exactly bucking the national trend by being a Bastion of White Britishness. Only London and the West Midlands are signifcantly different.

It was not about ethnicity is was about nationality and my statement referred to a healthy multi national population not a healthy multi ethnic population, the census quite clearly illustrates that BANES has a healthy multi national population.

 

You didn’t answer my questions How well do you know Bath? have you lived here? what is a hub of multi-cultural immigration? provide some answers and I might take you seriously

 

If your concern is regards multi-national", rather than "multi ethnic", then your figures fall down even more. On the basis that over 90% class themselves as "White British" and the majority of those in black/asian categories would also be British, that leaves you with a couple of percent at absolute best that are different nationalties.

 

I know Bath quite well, visited it plenty of times, its a cracking place, you're lucky to live there, but lets not pretend it's affected in any way by mass immigration into the UK, your own figures demonstrate its not.

[saintbletch]

Met Read at a party once he was an absolute tool, obviously hasn’t changed

 

This calypso song has made me lose all of the respect that I previously had for him.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Bletch previously respected Mike Reed! That's like respecting dune.

[norwaysaint]

I don't see the problem with the accent. People use assumed accents all the time in songs (usually US) and even when reading poetry we might adopt an accent that fits the style. It isn't delivered as a parody or in a mocking style. It's just ****.

[saintbletch]

I cannot for the life of me understand their thinking behind it.

 

I mean, they are working their hardest to shrug off the 'racist tag' - and then they go and support this.

 

I don't think i'd classify it as racist necessarily, but just an effing stupid thing to do. Anyone with even the slightest shred of understanding of PR (I am not for one minute claiming to be an expert or have much more knowledge than any normal Non-PR type) could see how that would play out.

 

Not so sure KRG.

 

If I were a spin-doctor for UKIP, I would have advised them to do this. And rather than being a casual blunder by out-of-touch politicians, it may well have been orchestrated to create a fuss.

 

It plays so well to their (or at least my perception or their) target demographic.

 

The older voter that harps back to a time when it was our country, and where plain-speaking people could say what they wanted about who they wanted - because it was our country.

 

[video=youtube;9j6l7Va-C7E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j6l7Va-C7E

 

The casual skirting with controversy and the resultant liberal-media furore of the calypso song will cause many to conclude that UKIP represents their views, and stands up for their point of view.

 

Having said all that, it's difficult to stand in judgement on this if it attracts votes; that's democracy for you I suppose.

[saintbletch]

Bletch previously respected Mike Reed! That's like respecting dune.

 

Oh Toke.

 

I thought it was so obviously dripping in irony that it would have set off a metal detector.

 

#imusttryharder

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Not so sure KRG.

 

If I were a spin-doctor for UKIP, I would have advised them to do this. And rather than being a casual blunder by out-of-touch politicians, it may well have been orchestrated to create a fuss.

 

It plays so well to their (or at least my perception or their) target demographic.

 

The older voter that harps back to a time when it was our country, and where plain-speaking people could say what they wanted about who they wanted - because it was our country.

 

[video=youtube;9j6l7Va-C7E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j6l7Va-C7E

 

The casual skirting with controversy and the resultant liberal-media furore of the calypso song will cause many to conclude that UKIP represents their views, and stands up for their point of view.

 

Having said all that, it's difficult to stand in judgement on this if it attracts votes; that's democracy for you I suppose.

 

In fairness, I did concede in a later post that this will most likely play into their hands and the Outraged @ PC crowd they seem to pander to.

 

So yeah, think you make a fair point.

[pap]

In fairness, I did concede in a later post that this will most likely play into their hands and the Outraged @ PC crowd they seem to pander to.

 

So yeah, think you make a fair point.

 

Indeed he does. Could be a canny move.

 

I don't think it'll necessarily deter the wider British public either. It's misjudged, sure - but how many potential UKIP voters did this really turn off?

[pap]

 

Courtesy of @GeorgeAylett on Twitter.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

 

Courtesy of @GeorgeAylett on Twitter.

 

Been banging this drum for ages. It's one of my biggest bug bears with them.

 

They are no different to what they claim to be the alternative to.

 

That and the fact there are blatant racist and sexist undercurrents within the party.

[pap]

Been banging this drum for ages. It's one of my biggest bug bears with them.

 

They are no different to what they claim to be the alternative to.

 

That and the fact there are blatant racist and sexist undercurrents within the party.

 

It puts people in a quandary. There are some very decent reasons to not want to be part of an EU super-state, which in many ways we now are. Unfortunately KRG, most people are not interested in whether they're part of someone elses empire or not. They care about immigration.

 

Now I'm sure that a tiny fraction of UKIP voters are irredeemable racists, and have joined up to boot Johnny Foreigner off our shores. Most people just realise the reality of the situation. We're a small island with some large problems that aren't solved by adding more people. Some will legitimately question the value of having Polish cleaners sparkling up the local bogs when Brits are languishing on the dole.

 

I can't blame EU citizens for wanting to migrate here. They have much better long-term prospects by doing so. Five years of slumming it in overpopulated accommodation here and working your arse off gives you a huge start back home. I do wonder whether unskilled migrants are a net gain to the economy though, because if I were them, there's no f**king way I'd be paying British prices on our most heavily taxed items, especially if I had a steady stream of mates going back to Gdansk or wherever. Once you figure in the long-term objectives of many, how much money is staying in the British economy?

[solentstars]

 

Courtesy of @GeorgeAylett on Twitter.

 

Been banging this drum for ages. It's one of my biggest bug bears with them.

 

They are no different to what they claim to be the alternative to.

 

That and the fact there are blatant racist and sexist undercurrents within the party.

You think the muppets who support these idiots would see threw these cowboys. But its no surprise to me,its the old reactionary wing of the nasty party of the 80s Tory party but I suppose people are so far removed from politics they will swallow the make believe ******** they spought.

[bridge too far]

It seems most of us have mixed feelings about migration and the EU

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/22/eu-migration-confused-poll-free-movement_n_6026550.html?1413978515

[KelvinsRightGlove]

It puts people in a quandary. There are some very decent reasons to not want to be part of an EU super-state, which in many ways we now are. Unfortunately KRG, most people are not interested in whether they're part of someone elses empire or not. They care about immigration.

 

Now I'm sure that a tiny fraction of UKIP voters are irredeemable racists, and have joined up to boot Johnny Foreigner off our shores. Most people just realise the reality of the situation. We're a small island with some large problems that aren't solved by adding more people. Some will legitimately question the value of having Polish cleaners sparkling up the local bogs when Brits are languishing on the dole.

 

I can't blame EU citizens for wanting to migrate here. They have much better long-term prospects by doing so. Five years of slumming it in overpopulated accommodation here and working your arse off gives you a huge start back home. I do wonder whether unskilled migrants are a net gain to the economy though, because if I were them, there's no f**king way I'd be paying British prices on our most heavily taxed items, especially if I had a steady stream of mates going back to Gdansk or wherever. Once you figure in the long-term objectives of many, how much money is staying in the British economy?

 

You see I think the problem is often perception. I wish I could find it, but there was an article I saw recently where people were asked things like what % of the population did you think were migrants/muslims/etc. and then compared it to the actual proportion. Often the perception was out by a factor of 10. (slightly off topic this also applied to things such as % of JSA payments to Welfare Bill - all way, way, way off).

 

People like Farage and UKIP drum all this up and make that much worse - and imo foster hostility. That's not to say no one should ever talk about immigration, obviously there are discussions to be had. But, I think they are discussions that need to be made in a sensitive manner (no, not just because it's a PC gone mad world and I'm scared of offending people). I think the questions of infrastructure are certainly very important - and actually something that should be of much greater priority of kicking 'em all out or locking up the border. It seems it is something that has been ignored/not adequately addressed for a prolonged period by successive govts.

 

Oh, and on your first point. My problem with that is that you often see UKIPpers using the Commonwealth not Commonmarket tagline. Which I think says a lot.

[pap]

Nige in hot water over EU grouping.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/20/ukip-does-deal-with-far-right-to-save-european-grouping

[buctootim]

Nige in hot water over EU grouping.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/20/ukip-does-deal-with-far-right-to-save-european-grouping

 

The worst part is his hypocrisy. Hes done a deal with a far right party that even the French NF wont touch simply to get around the rules and enable UKIP to get continued EU funding.

 

Dear old Nige - the principled 'different from all the rest' leader fighting for freedom from EU tyranny and immigration whilst contorting himself to take EU cash and married to a German who lives here.

Edited 22 October, 2014 by buctootim

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Nige in hot water over EU grouping.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/20/ukip-does-deal-with-far-right-to-save-european-grouping

 

Nope, we're not racist. We just say racist things and hang out with racists. Definitely not racist though. Look, here I am on a stage with all my black and Asian friends. No racists here.

 

Lol forever.

[CB Saint]

It seems most of us have mixed feelings about migration and the EU

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/22/eu-migration-confused-poll-free-movement_n_6026550.html?1413978515

 

That made me laugh - do as I say, not as I do

[bridge too far]

Veering off course to some extent, I found this very interesting site. If you like maps and statistics you'll enjoy this. I particularly found the maps of Europe interesting (hence the posting on this thread) and especially map 28 that might debunk a few myths:

 

http://www.vox.com/2014/9/8/6103453/38-maps-that-explain-europe

[hypochondriac]

Veering off course to some extent, I found this very interesting site. If you like maps and statistics you'll enjoy this. I particularly found the maps of Europe interesting (hence the posting on this thread) and especially map 28 that might debunk a few myths:

 

http://www.vox.com/2014/9/8/6103453/38-maps-that-explain-europe

 

I'm not sure what myths you are debunking. Did you reply to my last post by the way? did you disagree with it?

[bridge too far]

I'm not sure what myths you are debunking. Did you reply to my last post by the way? did you disagree with it?

 

I'm not debunking any myths but that particular map does - in fact it goes along with KRG's post at 419 above. What am I supposed to reply to - not sure I've even read 'your last post'.

[Sour Mash]

Veering off course to some extent, I found this very interesting site. If you like maps and statistics you'll enjoy this. I particularly found the maps of Europe interesting (hence the posting on this thread) and especially map 28 that might debunk a few myths:

 

http://www.vox.com/2014/9/8/6103453/38-maps-that-explain-europe

What myths does map 28 debunk?

[hypochondriac]

I'm not debunking any myths but that particular map does - in fact it goes along with KRG's post at 419 above. What am I supposed to reply to - not sure I've even read 'your last post'.

 

Debunking a myth that we have a load of Muslims in this country? Has someone even posted about that? Personally I couldn't give a toss about that, I was talking about ukip and immigration not Muslims.

[hypochondriac]

Where did I say put restrictions in place for occupations we need? What you do is you look at areas where immigration will be a benefit (such as medical professionals as you mentioned) and then you welcome a certain percentage in from all over the world. That way we get a controlled number of immigrants in who can benefit society. What you don't do is let anyone in who fancies coming regardless of how likely they are to contribute to society or not.

 

It works well in other countries and it would work well here too.

 

And this was the post I was referring to btf.

[pap]

What myths does map 28 debunk?

 

Well, the idea that we're over-run with Muslims, for starters. How'd you go about implementing say, Sharia law, with such a small percentage of the population?

[hypochondriac]

Well, the idea that we're over-run with Muslims, for starters. How'd you go about implementing say, Sharia law, with such a small percentage of the population?

 

Who is saying that? Genuine question because that really isn't what I think at all.

[Sour Mash]

Well, the idea that we're over-run with Muslims, for starters. How'd you go about implementing say, Sharia law, with such a small percentage of the population?

That's the whole point. It's relevant for some parts of the country and not for others. It's going to be more of an issue if you live in sayTower Hamlets or Hounslow compared to Bath or Harrogate for example.

[pap]

Who is saying that? Genuine question because that really isn't what I think at all.

 

Might not be you personally hypo, but it's a constant refrain I see on social media and here.

 

That's the whole point. It's relevant for some parts of the country and not for others. It's going to be more of an issue if you live in say Tower Hamlets or Hounslow compared to Bath or Harrogate for example.

 

That's never the way it's bigged up. Sharia law is persistently presented as a potential usurper to our present system, which is very different from what you're suggesting. Even when the argument is narrowed, it's still not that realistic. How would the likes of Tower Hamlets and Hounslow enforce Sharia law on everyone else, or even all of their own citizens?

[hypochondriac]

Might not be you personally hypo, but it's a constant refrain I see on social media and here.

 

 

 

That's never the way it's bigged up. Sharia law is persistently presented as a potential usurper to our present system, which is very different from what you're suggesting. Even when the argument is narrowed, it's still not that realistic. How would the likes of Tower Hamlets and Hounslow enforce Sharia law on everyone else, or even all of their own citizens?

 

Has it been a constant refrain on here? Can't say I remember it apart from maybe one or two. I fear this thread is veering off topic and some are wishing to debunk myths that weren't even mentioned in this thread to begin with. What have Muslims got to do with the freedom of movement within the EU?

Edited 22 October, 2014 by hypochondriac

[pap]

Has it been a constant refrain on here? Can't say I remember it apart from maybe one or two. I fear this thread is veering off topic and some are wishing to debunk myths that weren't even mentioned in this thread to begin with. What have Muslims got to do with the freedom of movement within the EU?

 

People were specifically asking about the myth that map 28 on btf's link of maps undid.

 

Social media and here. Britain First and groups like it are built on this stuff.

 

Agree though, Islamic stuff wasn't mentioned on this thread, but it crops up often enough for the observation to be worthwhile.

[Sour Mash]

People were specifically asking about the myth that map 28 on btf's link of maps undid.

 

Social media and here. Britain First and groups like it are built on this stuff.

 

Agree though, Islamic stuff wasn't mentioned on this thread, but it crops up often enough for the observation to be worthwhile.

Which posts on here have presented Sharia Law as a "usurper of our present system"? And who on Social Media is regularly stating this?

 

Thank god for map no.28 is all I can say, it really has helped clear out all the regularly repeated myths.

[bridge too far]

Mmmm - I did say, when I posted the link, that people who liked maps and statistics might find it interesting. I did say it was veering off the main point of the thread. I looked at the European section of the site as I'm European and I was interested in all the maps and data contained therein.

 

In the course of my study, I was intrigued by map 28 because, in my view, it did cast a realistic light on the question of Islam in Europe. I most certainly wasn't trying to link Islam and immigrants from Muslim countries with the UKIP stance on immigration from Europe. That would be a silly thing to do but, if others want to link the two subjects, then that's their issue, not mine.

 

There are many other maps on the European section that are equally interesting

[Bath Saint]

If your concern is regards multi-national", rather than "multi ethnic", then your figures fall down even more. On the basis that over 90% class themselves as "White British" and the majority of those in black/asian categories would also be British, that leaves you with a couple of percent at absolute best that are different nationalties.

 

I know Bath quite well, visited it plenty of times, its a cracking place, you're lucky to live there, but lets not pretend it's affected in any way by mass immigration into the UK, your own figures demonstrate its not.

 

I'm afraid you're on a hiding to nothing here, Moonraker. I am what you might call a lilly-livered liberal (but far from 'elite'). I can confirm that Bath is unremittingly white, middle-classed, smug and self-satisfied. It is half-full of refugees from London, many of whom have kept their London jobs, There is a small Afro-Caribbean 'ghetto' along London Road and the local working class folk have been shunted out to the 'sink estates' of Twerton and Fox Hill. You could almost regard Bath city centre as a ghetto of the white middle class. The ethnic 'colour' is almost entirely the responsibility of the two universities (particularly the one on the hill) which have brought in large numbers of overseas students.

[Sour Mash]

Mmmm - I did say, when I posted the link, that people who liked maps and statistics might find it interesting. I did say it was veering off the main point of the thread. I looked at the European section of the site as I'm European and I was interested in all the maps and data contained therein.

 

In the course of my study, I was intrigued by map 28 because, in my view, it did cast a realistic light on the question of Islam in Europe. I most certainly wasn't trying to link Islam and immigrants from Muslim countries with the UKIP stance on immigration from Europe. That would be a silly thing to do but, if others want to link the two subjects, then that's their issue, not mine.

 

There are many other maps on the European section that are equally interesting

It was a generally interesting link, thanks for posting, I am a fan of maps and that kind of thing. But I'm not sure where map 28 gets its stats from? I don't think they're correct for the UK or possibly out of date.

[Sour Mash]

I'm afraid you're on a hiding to nothing here, Moonraker. I am what you might call a lilly-livered liberal (but far from 'elite'). I can confirm that Bath is unremittingly white, middle-classed, smug and self-satisfied. It is half-full of refugees from London, many of whom have kept their London jobs, There is a small Afro-Caribbean 'ghetto' along London Road and the local working class folk have been shunted out to the 'sink estates' of Twerton and Fox Hill. You could almost regard Bath city centre as a ghetto of the white middle class. The ethnic 'colour' is almost entirely the responsibility of the two universities (particularly the one on the hill) which have brought in large numbers of overseas students.

Exactly. Regardless of one's views on this subject, Moonraker's perception of Bath was at odds with reality.

[CB Saint]

It was interesting that the uk have a relatively low percentage of Muslim than the ROE, however we do seem to have more than our fair share of lunatics.

[solentstars]

It's fairly interesting that this man is UKIP's sixth larger donor... and also a Greek immigrant. I don't notice any of them complaining about immigration when they're paying for their billboards?

 

Anyway, as noted above, every party has racists, misogynists and homophobes, even if UKIP has more than most. The biggest problem with UKIP is that should they get into power, they have some crazy policies beyond leaving the EU - so of course, they just focus on the EU and the immigration. I won't be voting for a party that wants to bring in a flat income tax rate for everybody, because I don't see why the bankers should be getting tax cuts whilst the hard working bloke on the street has his hiked up; nor can I support a party that thinks man-made climate change is a myth and that we need to be burning more gas.

Agree its the UK version of the tea party with a lot of lunatics in its membership, but if the gullible simpletons want to vote for them its there choice only difference they will make is that we will end up with a labour government.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Indeed, as you said - silliness all round I feel.

 

That said, the subsequent reaction will most likely play into the "This country has gone to the dogs thanks to PC madness" morons running around supporting UKIP.

 

KelvinsRightGlove, speaking as one of the morons who flirts with voting UKIP could you be kind enough as to answer;

 

1 Whether you think that an open door EU immigration policy is a sensible approach when managing budgets for local and national service needs like the NHS, education and housing. Indeed what do you think the impact on wage levels would be?

 

2 Whether it is genuinely economically and politically practical to have a one size fits all system incorporating 27 different markets when some of those markets share the same currency and others do not. Do you think we should have joined the Euro?

 

3 Do you think that the democratic process has improved as a result of being in the EU. Perhaps you could mention how it has helped the Greeks and Italians who have had leaders imposed on them and how that has helped harmony with in the community.

 

I hope this gives you the opportunity to demonstrate why I am the moron and not you.

[hypochondriac]

Dismissing all potential ukip voters as thick or idiots is a pretty pathetic tactic and just highlights that you can't debate sensibly.

[TwoPints]

KelvinsRightGlove, speaking as one of the morons who flirts with voting UKIP could you be kind enough as to answer;

 

1 Whether you think that an open door EU immigration policy is a sensible approach when managing budgets for local and national service needs like the NHS, education and housing. Indeed what do you think the impact on wage levels would be?

 

2 Whether it is genuinely economically and politically practical to have a one size fits all system incorporating 27 different markets when some of those markets share the same currency and others do not. Do you think we should have joined the Euro?

 

3 Do you think that the democratic process has improved as a result of being in the EU. Perhaps you could mention how it has helped the Greeks and Italians who have had leaders imposed on them and how that has helped harmony with in the community.

 

I hope this gives you the opportunity to demonstrate why I am the moron and not you.

 

1. It's not an open door immigration policy. It's an open door immigration and emigration policy. There are many thousands of people living and working in in the EU thanks to the open borders policy. Personally, I don't have an issue with it, indeed I'm pleased that I have this freedom.

 

2. Well clearly it is. The majority of our trade is with EU countries (someone that can be bothered will no doubt come up with the numbers). Without which we would be a poorer country and if you flick back many pages you will see the laws that have been passed be the EU that I personally welcome.

 

3. It's not the Democratic process that screwed the Greeks and the Italians, it was there membership of the euro and their general mismanagement of their own economy.

 

My turn:

 

1. How many jobs do you think will be lost in the UK economy by our withdrawal from the EU, our major raiding partner? The argument that we can still trade with them won't wash as although that is true to an extent, it is a fair assumption that the costs to do so would escalate and make us less competitive in that market when compared with countries that are trading amongst each other.

 

2. With a much reduced labour force available to UK companies, how much do you see the inflation rate going up by with increase wages and costs of exporting? Which on its own would damage our ability to export inside and outside of the EU.

 

3. Apart from the promises by ukip around immigration and foreigners in general which of the other ukip policies do you embrace? Maybe it's the ability of tobacco companies to advertise more readily or allowing smoking in pubs. I wonder whether the impact on the NHS of the increase in cancer patients and other associated illnesses has been taken into account in the maths?

[moonraker]

If your concern is regards multi-national", rather than "multi ethnic", then your figures fall down even more. On the basis that over 90% class themselves as "White British" and the majority of those in black/asian categories would also be British, that leaves you with a couple of percent at absolute best that are different nationalties.

 

I know Bath quite well, visited it plenty of times, its a cracking place, you're lucky to live there, but lets not pretend it's affected in any way by mass immigration into the UK, your own figures demonstrate its not.

 

Im not sure what you mean by affected by mass migration, my point was Bath has a healthy immigrant population i.e. not born in Britain and we do not have problems. Please provide a definition for mass immigration.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

1. It's not an open door immigration policy. It's an open door immigration and emigration policy. There are many thousands of people living and working in in the EU thanks to the open borders policy. Personally, I don't have an issue with it, indeed I'm pleased that I have this freedom.

 

2. Well clearly it is. The majority of our trade is with EU countries (someone that can be bothered will no doubt come up with the numbers). Without which we would be a poorer country and if you flick back many pages you will see the laws that have been passed be the EU that I personally welcome.

 

3. It's not the Democratic process that screwed the Greeks and the Italians, it was there membership of the euro and their general mismanagement of their own economy.

 

My turn:

 

1. How many jobs do you think will be lost in the UK economy by our withdrawal from the EU, our major raiding partner? The argument that we can still trade with them won't wash as although that is true to an extent, it is a fair assumption that the costs to do so would escalate and make us less competitive in that market when compared with countries that are trading amongst each other.

 

2. With a much reduced labour force available to UK companies, how much do you see the inflation rate going up by with increase wages and costs of exporting? Which on its own would damage our ability to export inside and outside of the EU.

 

3. Apart from the promises by ukip around immigration and foreigners in general which of the other ukip policies do you embrace? Maybe it's the ability of tobacco companies to advertise more readily or allowing smoking in pubs. I wonder whether the impact on the NHS of the increase in cancer patients and other associated illnesses has been taken into account in the maths?

 

1 So having sharply varying wage levels in the community has not created an in-balance in who wants to go where. Is this not a flaw in the policy? How many British plumbers are going to Poland

 

2 So because the EU is our biggest trading partner we cannot question their rules? Do you think trade will stop if we exit? I am sure the French wine industry or the German car industry will be keen to sort something out! Our economy is growing in spite of the EU because we have targeted other worldwide markets

 

3 So you admit that a fundamental aspiration of the EU, currency union is to blame for their economic woes? Actually nobody enforced the EU fiscal rules on Greece so in reality the EU is really to blame for their tragedy.

 

1 The EU, particularly now while they are almost in recession again, will not want to stop doing business with a major trading partner believe it or not it will hurt them too. Or are they stupid? Costs will actually go down because red tape will shrink.

 

2 You can actually still have immigration but managed immigration - having control of your border does not mean that nobody can come in, its brilliant you can choose who comes. Believe it or not the Indians and Chinese are quite clever, that is why so much of our manufacturing and service industry has gone over there - they can also come to us. Employment is currently rising but wage inflation is falling.

 

3 I embrace spending what we earn. The more wealth you generate the better the services you can provide. Otherwise you waste money paying interest and storing up problems for our children. I believe that if you smoke and drink its up to you.

 

As it happens I am a great advocate of the EEC I just think that there has been too much of a shift from an economic aspiration to a political one and that has done an incredible amount of damage. Sadly the people who can change it have most to lose by change and that is very unfortunate.

Edited 22 October, 2014 by Sergei Gotsmanov

[Sour Mash]

I'm afraid you're on a hiding to nothing here, Moonraker. I am what you might call a lilly-livered liberal (but far from 'elite'). I can confirm that Bath is unremittingly white, middle-classed, smug and self-satisfied. It is half-full of refugees from London, many of whom have kept their London jobs, There is a small Afro-Caribbean 'ghetto' along London Road and the local working class folk have been shunted out to the 'sink estates' of Twerton and Fox Hill. You could almost regard Bath city centre as a ghetto of the white middle class. The ethnic 'colour' is almost entirely the responsibility of the two universities (particularly the one on the hill) which have brought in large numbers of overseas students.

 

Im not sure what you mean by affected by mass migration, my point was Bath has a healthy immigrant population i.e. not born in Britain and we do not have problems. Please provide a definition for mass immigration.

Give up.

[Sour Mash]

1. It's not an open door immigration policy. It's an open door immigration and emigration policy. There are many thousands of people living and working in in the EU thanks to the open borders policy. Personally, I don't have an issue with it, indeed I'm pleased that I have this freedom.

 

2. Well clearly it is. The majority of our trade is with EU countries (someone that can be bothered will no doubt come up with the numbers). Without which we would be a poorer country and if you flick back many pages you will see the laws that have been passed be the EU that I personally welcome.

 

3. It's not the Democratic process that screwed the Greeks and the Italians, it was there membership of the euro and their general mismanagement of their own economy.

 

My turn:

 

1. How many jobs do you think will be lost in the UK economy by our withdrawal from the EU, our major raiding partner? The argument that we can still trade with them won't wash as although that is true to an extent, it is a fair assumption that the costs to do so would escalate and make us less competitive in that market when compared with countries that are trading amongst each other.

 

2. With a much reduced labour force available to UK companies, how much do you see the inflation rate going up by with increase wages and costs of exporting? Which on its own would damage our ability to export inside and outside of the EU.

 

3. Apart from the promises by ukip around immigration and foreigners in general which of the other ukip policies do you embrace? Maybe it's the ability of tobacco companies to advertise more readily or allowing smoking in pubs. I wonder whether the impact on the NHS of the increase in cancer patients and other associated illnesses has been taken into account in the maths?

The first three points;

 

1) You do realise the net difference in those coming to the UK from the EU versus those leaving the UK to work in the EU? What great opportunities do you now have that you didn't previously prior to the movement of free labour across borders?

 

2) You think it clearly is "genuinely economically and politically practical to have a one size fits all system incorporating 27 different markets when some of those markets share the same currency and others do not."? Not up for debate or discussion? No cause for concern? What would be the economic impact as a result of us withdrawing?

 

3) You haven't answered the fair question - Do you think the Democratic process has improved as a result of being in the EU?

 

 

My answers to your three questions:

 

1) Very few jobs would be lost. If anything, the job market would improve greatly for many UK residents without their wages being under-cut by large numbers of EU migrants.

 

2) Did we suffer from rampant inflation prior to the opening up of the labour market?

 

3) I couldn't care less if tobacco companies can advertise more or if smoking is allowed back in pubs.

[TwoPints]

Apologies for the delay in my reply but I've been watching the Apprentice

 

1 So having sharply varying wage levels in the community has not created an in-balance in who wants to go where. Is this not a flaw in the policy? How many British plumbers are going to Poland

 

Don't know about plumbers but this chap seems to be doing OK:

 

https://www.blogger.com/profile/07287142568155953402

 

The FT also seem to think that there's not much difference in the numbers:

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5cd640f6-9025-11e3-a776-00144feab7de.html#axzz3GufJb0Sp

 

and it seems that the French aren't too happy about the British flooding their country too:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1354810/Attack-ex-pats-robbing-French-jobs-The-Polish-plumber-English-ski-instructor.html

 

It's very easy to pick a low paid country and a low paid job as an example of how unjust our lot is but personally, I don't subscribe to that view.

 

 

2 So because the EU is our biggest trading partner we cannot question their rules? Do you think trade will stop if we exit? I am sure the French wine industry or the German car industry will be keen to sort something out! Our economy is growing in spite of the EU because we have targeted other worldwide markets

 

Umm ... that wasn't the question nor was it my answer! Who has said their rules can't be questioned? I'm very happy for us to question their rules but there are some I agree with and some I don't in the same way that there are plenty of UK rules that I don't agree with but others that I do. It doesn't mean that just because we don't like everything about it that we should bite out nose off to spite our face and leave completely.

 

3 So you admit that a fundamental aspiration of the EU, currency union is to blame for their economic woes? Actually nobody enforced the EU fiscal rules on Greece so in reality the EU is really to blame for their tragedy.

 

I also said that it was their own incompetence in managing their economies. I'm not quite sure what point you're making here though with regard to how voting UKIP would make any difference as we're not in the Euro anyway.

 

 

1 The EU, particularly now while they are almost in recession again, will not want to stop doing business with a major trading partner believe it or not it will hurt them too. Or are they stupid? Costs will actually go down because red tape will shrink.

 

In no possible way will the red tape do down. The idea of an open market is that we can trade as freely with EU countries as we can in the UK. Do you really think that if we throw that agreement away the red tape will go down? There will be a shed load of paperwork and red tape to go through. With regard to EU countries wanting to do business with us, I'm sure they will but the point I'm making is about exports to the EU rather than imports from them. Just think about this for a minute. A company in the UK has 1,000,000 widgets to sell, as does a company in France. A company in Germany just happens to need 1,000,000 widgets asap. The French chap says, no problem, I'll just chuck them in the lorry and drive them across the border. The UK chap says, well I can get them to you but I've got to fill all these forms in and get them filed with the relevant agency so that I can trade with EU countries, that'll take a fortnight, then they have to go through customs so that could take some time. By the way, because of all this additional work, I need to charge a bit more for them. Where do you think the German will get his widgets?

 

 

2 You can actually still have immigration but managed immigration - having control of your border does not mean that nobody can come in, its brilliant you can choose who comes. Believe it or not the Indians and Chinese are quite clever, that is why so much of our manufacturing and service industry has gone over there - they can also come to us. Employment is currently rising but wage inflation is falling.

 

Yes, the Indians and Chinese are quite clever but that's not why so much of our manufacturing has gone over there. It is simply because they can manufacture what we want that much cheaper. If we reduce our available workforce by closing our borders apart form to those skilled jobs that we need (who decides that by the way?) then our cost of manufacture will increase and we will lose more jobs to those countries. In the global economy in which we live, that's just the realistic economics of it I'm afraid. I'm all for paying a living wage to people but we're not going to remain competitive in any shape or form by closing our borders as UKIP wish.

 

3 I embrace spending what we earn. The more wealth you generate the better the services you can provide. Otherwise you waste money paying interest and storing up problems for our children. I believe that if you smoke and drink its up to you.

 

Well I happen to think that the policy of reducing the promotion of cigarettes, banning smoking in enclosed places and educating the populace as to the consequences of smoking is one of the more sensible things that the UK government has done over the past decade yet before the 'no smoking in pubs' rule became law I was against it.

 

As it happens I am a great advocate of the EEC I just think that there has been too much of a shift from an economic aspiration to a political one and that has done an incredible amount of damage. Sadly the people who can change it have most to lose by change and that is very unfortunate.

 

I'll need to think about that one but in my opinion the way you change that is to be involved in it rather than outside it.