More UKIP bother

[Batman]

There nothing different about Farage he's a f**cking banker. While I am thoroughly fed up with career politicians they are preferable to most of the representatives of UKIP I have seen, they are mostly little Englanders, narrow minded bigots, thick middle class wanabees or barly disguised racists. They often fall at the first fence and quote ridiculous and unverifiable statistics from the Daily Fail book of facts. We need new politicians who are competent and educated, don't look to UKIP for them.

wow

[hypochondriac]

There nothing different about Farage he's a f**cking banker. While I am thoroughly fed up with career politicians they are preferable to most of the representatives of UKIP I have seen, they are mostly little Englanders, narrow minded bigots, thick middle class wanabees or barly disguised racists. They often fall at the first fence and quote ridiculous and unverifiable statistics from the Daily Fail book of facts. We need new politicians who are competent and educated, don't look to UKIP for them.

 

Oh dear. This attitude is why forage is doing so well.

[Jonnyboy]

We have been crying out for a party which isnt jammed packed with careerist PPE grads. Now we have one.

 

Green party has had an MP since the last election and about 0.1% of the media coverage that UKIP gets.

[Jonnyboy]

There nothing different about Farage he's a f**cking banker. While I am thoroughly fed up with career politicians they are preferable to most of the representatives of UKIP I have seen, they are mostly little Englanders, narrow minded bigots, thick middle class wanabees or barly disguised racists. They often fall at the first fence and quote ridiculous and unverifiable statistics from the Daily Fail book of facts. We need new politicians who are competent and educated, don't look to UKIP for them.

 

The truth.

[buctootim]

UKIP's Biggest Problem is Stupidity not Racism

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/05/ukips-biggest-problem-is-stupidity-not-racism/

[moonraker]

Oh dear. This attitude is why forage is doing so well.

 

Why? How does my opinion help forage? It's not an attitude it's a point of view based on personal experience.

[hypochondriac]

Why? How does my opinion help forage? It's not an attitude it's a point of view based on personal experience.

 

Dave has already tried dismissing ukip as fantasists and closet racists. It didn't work.

[moonraker]

Dave has already tried dismissing ukip as fantasists and closet racists. It didn't work.

 

I'm hardly dave, I don't expect Nick Robinson will turn up to interview me anytime soon. While there is not a lot I agree on with dave he was right on UKIP, Ken Clarke was right on the money this morning on R 4

[Batman]

I'm hardly dave, I don't expect Nick Robinson will turn up to interview me anytime soon. While there is not a lot I agree on with dave he was right on UKIP, Ken Clarke was right on the money this morning on R 4

 

not to mention the racists, sexists etc in the labour and the liberal parties

[bridge too far]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/21/hurricane-gonzalo-ukip-weather_n_6019788.html?1413885821

 

[moonraker]

not to mention the racists, sexists etc in the labour and the liberal parties

 

????? I thought this was about UKIP not the others w/o certainly have their problems but you'd be hard pressed to find many verifiable racist, sexist quotes from them.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Why is the standard response to the extraordinary popularity of UKIP to smear and not to debate. Says far more about those that oppose them than those that support them.

[trousers]

Why is the standard response to the extraordinary popularity of UKIP to smear and not to debate.

Fear

[Jonnyboy]

Why is the standard response to the extraordinary popularity of UKIP to smear and not to debate. Says far more about those that oppose them than those that support them.

 

They bring it on themselves by making it so easy.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Why is the standard response to the extraordinary popularity of UKIP to smear and not to debate. Says far more about those that oppose them than those that support them.

 

Exactly , if anybody saw that loon Diane Abbott debating Gaunty on "This Week " they would have seen a typical establishment smear. Gaunty was arguing that low skilled immigrants from Eastern Europe had pushed down low wages and put too much pressure on some local services. He was at pains to praise past generations of immigrants and commented that his home town of Coventry had benefitted from "controlled" immigration . Abbott wasted no time in playing the race card and brought up that UKIP wanted to keep out Black people like her . Complete and utter nonsense . UKIP actually want people from her ethnic background to be treated the same as a white man from France or Germany . It is the establishment that treat people differently depending on where they come from . Abbott was embarrassing and that plum Portillio sat there nodding whist she lied and played the race card . Nigel showed Cleggy up for the liar he is on the European debates and he's going to do the same come the GE to the rest of the establishment.

[Sour Mash]

There nothing different about Farage he's a f**cking banker. While I am thoroughly fed up with career politicians they are preferable to most of the representatives of UKIP I have seen, they are mostly little Englanders, narrow minded bigots, thick middle class wanabees or barly disguised racists. They often fall at the first fence and quote ridiculous and unverifiable statistics from the Daily Fail book of facts. We need new politicians who are competent and educated, don't look to UKIP for them.

 

Dry your eyes. Don't let being out of touch with the world be such a blow.

[whelk]

Dry your eyes. Don't let being out of touch with the world be such a blow.

 

He isn't. You are probably in step with a mainly white male right wing forum though.

He smokes, goes to pubs, hates foreigners, and wants to annihilate public services. What's not to like? Always worried me how left wing the Tories were and we need something more right wing.

[TwoPints]

Why is the standard response to the extraordinary popularity of UKIP to smear and not to debate. Says far more about those that oppose them than those that support them.

Maybe because there's a lot to smear but without policies on anything but keeping the foreigners out there's not much to debate?

[moonraker]

Dry your eyes. Don't let being out of touch with the world be such a blow.

 

Eyes dry I just cant stand the throw back to the politics of phoney nationalism and patriotism that UKIP purports to represent. It is UKIP that is out of touch the world is more connected more integrated and more tolerant while UKIP want to pull up the draw bridge and pretend we as nation can ignore the rest of the world.

Edited 22 October, 2014 by moonraker

[hypochondriac]

Eyes dry I just cant t t cant stand the through back to the politics of phoney nationalism and patriotism that UKIP purports to represent. It is UKIP that is out of touch the world is more connected more integrated and more tolerant while UKIP want to pull up the draw bridge and pretend we as nation can ignore the rest of the world.

 

Do you agree with the notion that uncontrolled immigration from all eu nations to the exclusion of others is unfair and unsustainable if more people move here than emigrate?

Edited 22 October, 2014 by hypochondriac

[TwoPints]

Do you agree with the notion that uncontrolled immigration from all eu nations to the exclusion of others is unfair and unsustainable if more people move here than emigrate?

So the rest of the world are excluded are they? I'd best mention that to all the Chinese students on my train this morning. I can just imagine all the ukip supporters voting for them because they feel sorry for the rest of the world that they don't have the same rights as those in Europe.

[bridge too far]

If we limited migration from other EU countries, I think we'd be the losers if those countries retaliated and demanded we take back all the people from the UK who had migrated to their countries.

 

Think of the huge additional demand (and cost) to the NHS when all the ex-pats returned from Spain and France, for example, since most of them are retirees!

 

Especially since restricting immigration to our country could mean we'd be desperately short of medical professionals and carers to look after them as a result.

[hypochondriac]

So the rest of the world are excluded are they? I'd best mention that to all the Chinese students on my train this morning. I can just imagine all the ukip supporters voting for them because they feel sorry for the rest of the world that they don't have the same rights as those in Europe.

 

I didn't say that the rest of the world are excluded did I. I said that uncontrolled immigration from the eu excludes others from moving here. Which it does. Just like the USA and Australia, there should be a points based system if you want to come to live and work here. It's common sense.

[moonraker]

Do you agree with the notion that uncontrolled immigration from all eu nations to the exclusion of others is unfair and unsustainable if more people move here than emigrate?

No I don’t agree, your 'if' is the key word, previous doomsayers have been proven wrong, Forage showed himself up when he claimed 20 million or so Rumanians were on there way. The EU freedom of movement (not immigration or migration) allows all EU citizens to live and work where they choose. There is a constant flow across Europe, none more significant than Brits heading for sunnier climes around the Mediterranean, bringing back all of the retired folk would certainly impose a severe strain on the NHS. To believe we can just shut up shop is at best naïve. The United Kingdom has a proud and enviable history of welcoming and accommodating newcomers, our culture and history have been enriched and in many cases made by these newcomers.

[hypochondriac]

If we limited migration from other EU countries, I think we'd be the losers if those countries retaliated and demanded we take back all the people from the UK who had migrated to their countries.

 

Think of the huge additional demand (and cost) to the NHS when all the ex-pats returned from Spain and France, for example, since most of them are retirees!

 

Especially since restricting immigration to our country could mean we'd be desperately short of medical professionals and carers to look after them as a result.

 

Why would restricting immigration mean we would lose medical professionals? Surely if that is what we lack then we should welcome medical professionals to this country from all over the world. Arguably we would then have more choice rather than just restricting ourselves to those who live in the eu.

 

I'm pro immigration but I'm anti the current situation which allows anyone from the eu to come here. How can we plan things when we never have any idea about the numbers that want to come here from one year to the next? It's crazy.

[bridge too far]

Hypo - a huge number of medical professionals have migrated to the UK from inside and outside the EU. We'd be royally shafted if there were restrictions on them coming to our country. And this is even more the case with people working in the care industry.

 

I'll see if I can find the reference but the other day it was reported that, compared to other EU countries (presumably Germany, France etc) we have lower immigration in terms of sheer numbers and in terms of percentage.

[hypochondriac]

Hypo - a huge number of medical professionals have migrated to the UK from inside and outside the EU. We'd be royally shafted if there were restrictions on them coming to our country. And this is even more the case with people working in the care industry.

 

I'll see if I can find the reference but the other day it was reported that, compared to other EU countries (presumably Germany, France etc) we have lower immigration in terms of sheer numbers and in terms of percentage.

 

Where did I say put restrictions in place for occupations we need? What you do is you look at areas where immigration will be a benefit (such as medical professionals as you mentioned) and then you welcome a certain percentage in from all over the world. That way we get a controlled number of immigrants in who can benefit society. What you don't do is let anyone in who fancies coming regardless of how likely they are to contribute to society or not.

 

It works well in other countries and it would work well here too.

[trousers]

Why would restricting immigration mean we would lose medical professionals? Surely if that is what we lack then we should welcome medical professionals to this country from all over the world. Arguably we would then have more choice rather than just restricting ourselves to those who live in the eu.

 

I'm pro immigration but I'm anti the current situation which allows anyone from the eu to come here. How can we plan things when we never have any idea about the numbers that want to come here from one year to the next? It's crazy.

I think that's a good summary. People hang onto stats that tell them we don't have an immigration problem per se. However, these same people are the first to have a pop when governments are reactive rather than proactive to problems. There is a risk that immigration *could* increase to a level that stretches our infrastructure too far (some would argue we've already reached that point) so what can possibly be wrong with the concept of introducing sensible controls so that current and future governments can preempt problems rather than deal with problems once the horse has long since bolted? All seems like common sense to me.

Edited 22 October, 2014 by trousers

[CB Saint]

If we limited migration from other EU countries, I think we'd be the losers if those countries retaliated and demanded we take back all the people from the UK who had migrated to their countries.

 

Think of the huge additional demand (and cost) to the NHS when all the ex-pats returned from Spain and France, for example, since most of them are retirees!

 

Especially since restricting immigration to our country could mean we'd be desperately short of medical professionals and carers to look after them as a result.

 

Fifty quid says that those same expat retirees rock up back here whenever they have a serious medical condition

[Sour Mash]

No I don’t agree, your 'if' is the key word, previous doomsayers have been proven wrong, Forage showed himself up when he claimed 20 million or so Rumanians were on there way. The EU freedom of movement (not immigration or migration) allows all EU citizens to live and work where they choose. There is a constant flow across Europe, none more significant than Brits heading for sunnier climes around the Mediterranean, bringing back all of the retired folk would certainly impose a severe strain on the NHS. To believe we can just shut up shop is at best naïve. The United Kingdom has a proud and enviable history of welcoming and accommodating newcomers, our culture and history have been enriched and in many cases made by these newcomers.

You love the rich contribution of immigration into this country so much you live in Bath

[hutch]

Fifty quid says that those same expat retirees rock up back here whenever they have a serious medical condition

Baśtards. They probably only spent 50 years paying for the NHS, and they think they can just turn up and use it when they need it.

[TwoPints]

It's all very well looking at one aspect of being in the EU (immigration) and saying if we didn't have that we'd be (arguably) better off and therefore we should leave the EU whilst completely ignoring the benefits of being in. No doubt people on here will say there are no benefits to being in the EU but those views are somewhat misguided IMHO.

 

I'm still struggling with the concept of voting for a party based on a single policy. Anyone know UKIP's position on the NHS, the economy, education, policing etc and if they do, does anyone happen to agree with them?

 

Personally I'd rather people voted Tory, they'd at least get a referendum on the EU. Better the devil you know and all that.

 

No doubt Farage will be keen to get the tv debates out of the way before they publish their manifesto so he can just bang on about immigration without having to face any questions about tricky subjects like how they'd actually run the country.

[hutch]

As things stand at the moment, most "foreigners" that can get enough points will opt to go and live somewhere nicer than Britain. The UK gets what's left. That needs to be fixed. But it doesn't need UKIP to fix it.

 

Changes to the "soft" benefits system, some of which are already in the pipeline, will address the inter-EU migration.

[pap]

Immigration is what UKIP are trading on, but it's the smaller of my concerns. I'd actually be more worried about the indifference of unelected supra-national bodies, and the sort of trouble that can cause. The recent crisis in Greece left many of the locals wondering if the EU was deliberately trying to kill them. They certainly don't feel like proud equals in a union of nations; they feel like a German colony. The centrist parties are on their way out, voters scattering left with Syriza and (far) right with Golden Dawn. EU-imposed austerity drove all of this. Syriza are already the biggest party in Greece; the only reason it isn't in government is because it refused to join a coalition supporting austerity.

 

Then there's eastward expansion, and the way we've riled a dormant superpower by chucking bases and missile defence systems into former Soviet satellite countries signed into the West via the medium of the EU. Whether we think that is provocative or not, Putin and his pals certainly think so. He's trying to put together his own supra-national bloc to counter the EU. Recent events in Ukraine have shown that Russia's days on the international sidelines are over.

 

We talk about the effects of immigration as perceived in our communities. Wage pressure, increased demand for housing and services. Largely pragmatic stuff. People tend to forget the ethnic Russians in the Baltic Soviet countries, many of whom moved there during Stalin's resettlement programs, all of whom now have the run of the EU. Possibly not a problem now, but I wonder if the older crowd could have imagined the reaction if this had happened in 1985 instead of 2014. Now I'm not saying that this is a particular risk, more a startling indicator of how much the EU has changed Europe in the last 30 years.

 

Britain is in an odd place right now. We're tied to the EU on domestic and economic policy, legally bound to implement their directives and admit any citizen. We're militarily tied to the US, almost without exception, mindlessly bounding along to any ill-advised plans they may have. Neither arrangement really suits what I perceive to be our place in the world, which is an independent mature island nation and a bridge between the Old World and the New.

[trousers]

Anyone know UKIP's position on the NHS, the economy, education, policing etc ?

 

http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

[TwoPints]

http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

Well that answers my first question and to be honest, makes me more nervous about the prospect of ukip getting in than I was before.

[CB Saint]

Baśtards. They probably only spent 50 years paying for the NHS, and they think they can just turn up and use it when they need it.

 

Have no problem with them using it, just countering BTF's suggestion that we save money because they don't use it.

[CB Saint]

Immigration is what UKIP are trading on, but it's the smaller of my concerns. I'd actually be more worried about the indifference of unelected supra-national bodies, and the sort of trouble that can cause. The recent crisis in Greece left many of the locals wondering if the EU was deliberately trying to kill them. They certainly don't feel like proud equals in a union of nations; they feel like a German colony. The centrist parties are on their way out, voters scattering left with Syriza and (far) right with Golden Dawn. EU-imposed austerity drove all of this. Syriza are already the biggest party in Greece; the only reason it isn't in government is because it refused to join a coalition supporting austerity.

 

Then there's eastward expansion, and the way we've riled a dormant superpower by chucking bases and missile defence systems into former Soviet satellite countries signed into the West via the medium of the EU. Whether we think that is provocative or not, Putin and his pals certainly think so. He's trying to put together his own supra-national bloc to counter the EU. Recent events in Ukraine have shown that Russia's days on the international sidelines are over.

 

We talk about the effects of immigration as perceived in our communities. Wage pressure, increased demand for housing and services. Largely pragmatic stuff. People tend to forget the ethnic Russians in the Baltic Soviet countries, many of whom moved there during Stalin's resettlement programs, all of whom now have the run of the EU. Possibly not a problem now, but I wonder if the older crowd could have imagined the reaction if this had happened in 1985 instead of 2014. Now I'm not saying that this is a particular risk, more a startling indicator of how much the EU has changed Europe in the last 30 years.

 

Britain is in an odd place right now. We're tied to the EU on domestic and economic policy, legally bound to implement their directives and admit any citizen. We're militarily tied to the US, almost without exception, mindlessly bounding along to any ill-advised plans they may have. Neither arrangement really suits what I perceive to be our place in the world, which is an independent mature island nation and a bridge between the Old World and the New.

 

Good points in there.

[bridge too far]

Have no problem with them using it, just countering BTF's suggestion that we save money because they don't use it.

 

No - I was saying that IF ex-pats came flooding back, they would probably put a greater strain on the NHS because most of them would be older. It happens to some extent already anyway. My friend's partner had a heart problem diagnosed in Spain (where he lives) but came back to the UK for a stent fitting. However, to be honest, he does live some of the time in the UK for tax reasons (is a minimum of 6 weeks the requirement?) so I guess he makes some sort of contribution to the NHS.

[moonraker]

You love the rich contribution of immigration into this country so much you live in Bath

Uh, whats that got to do with anything, my job is in Bath and I originate from jiust outside the City so its a resonable place for me to live. Bath has avery healthy muti national population, the key it is not dominated by one particular group and we dont have specific areas of the city where they all live, i.e. they aree integrated. The reception Forage got when he came, the guy on youtube is still getting through all the beer donated to him, is testament to the multi national harmony in this fair city!

[bridge too far]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29722860

[Sour Mash]

Uh, whats that got to do with anything, my job is in Bath and I originate from jiust outside the City so its a resonable place for me to live. Bath has avery healthy muti national population, the key it is not dominated by one particular group and we dont have specific areas of the city where they all live, i.e. they aree integrated. The reception Forage got when he came, the guy on youtube is still getting through all the beer donated to him, is testament to the multi national harmony in this fair city!

No-way you're going to get taken seriously on this. That well known hub of multi-cultural immigration that is Bath I bet you vote Lib Dem as well.

[trousers]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29722860

 

Perhaps Read should have stuck to banning other people's songs....

 

[moonraker]

No-way you're going to get taken seriously on this. That well known hub of multi-cultural immigration that is Bath I bet you vote Lib Dem as well.

Why? How well do you Bath? have you lived here? Please explain what a 'hub of multi-cultural immigration' is. BANES (the Census district for Bath, 2011 Census), with the exception of Chinese, is not in the top 25% for most ethnic groups it is in the mid range for all others. It is also worth noting that as BANES apart form Bath and Keynsham is essentially Rural the actual figures for the City of Bath are likely to be higher, this tends to support my claim that the City has a healthy multi national population, the one exception is that Gypsy or Irish Traveller are in the bottom 25% I assume they all down the M27. Interesting to know the corresponding figures for Southampton. Sorry if this bursts your common none Bathonian perception of my beautiful city.

[pap]

Perhaps Read should have stuck to banning other people's songs....

 

 

I expect he got a crash course in race relations over the last few days.

 

Gotta love the ol' "I didn't know it was racist!" generation. UKIP were silly to endorse it.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I expect he got a crash course in race relations over the last few days.

 

Gotta love the ol' "I didn't know it was racist!" generation. UKIP were silly to endorse it.

 

I cannot for the life of me understand their thinking behind it.

 

I mean, they are working their hardest to shrug off the 'racist tag' - and then they go and support this.

 

I don't think i'd classify it as racist necessarily, but just an effing stupid thing to do. Anyone with even the slightest shred of understanding of PR (I am not for one minute claiming to be an expert or have much more knowledge than any normal Non-PR type) could see how that would play out.

[pap]

I cannot for the life of me understand their thinking behind it.

 

I mean, they are working their hardest to shrug off the 'racist tag' - and then they go and support this.

 

I don't think i'd classify it as racist necessarily, but just an effing stupid thing to do. Anyone with even the slightest shred of understanding of PR (I am not for one minute claiming to be an expert or have much more knowledge than any normal Non-PR type) could see how that would play out.

 

I liked the "you can't do a calypso with a Surrey accent" defence.

 

Then don't do a f**king calypso!

[trousers]

[moonraker]

Met Read at a party once he was an absolute tool, obviously hasn’t changed

[CB Saint]

I am beginning to pity UKIP - they have the combined might of the three main parties smear departments lined up against them. Every utterance they make is being spun to create a fuss - (although they are not exactly helping themselves ). They are media amateurs and are being take apart by the media savvy Tories, Labs and Libs.