More UKIP bother

[pap]

I posed the question earlier; I wonder how many UKIP voters voted against PR?

 

None. Wasn't on the menu.

[View From The Top]

None. Wasn't on the menu.

 

We were all asked as to whether we wanted PR and the Right campaigned hard for a no vote. If they had voted for it then UKIP could have had a genuine chance to shake things up come May 15.

 

Alas for them they will be shouting stuff about a People's Army as they win a maximum of 1 seat. The Establishment is quaking.

[solentstars]

Where has all this " anti immigration" nonsense come from. Ukip are not anti immigration, their immigration policy for the whole world is exactly the same as the liblabcon's is for Africans and Chinese. Are the liblabcon anti African?

 

Anti EU people used to argue about section y, sub section x of treaty z, and nobody quite understood the problem and we ended up with this straight banana nonsense. What Nigel has done very well is to point out the consequence of membership on peoples lives. The established parties tried to make out that immigration is a seperate issue than the EU. Nobody believes that now and hopefully Nigel will move on to other areas after this election, starting with the democratic implications of our membership. I want laws made in UK, 100% of them, end of.

 

One final point about question time. Had Nigel denied the holocaust on Thursday's show, he could have been arrested and sent to Germany to stand trial, this is despite the fact he may have not set foot in Germany in his life. Now, holocaust denial is appallingly disgusting behaviour, but the fact is, it is not an offense in UK law. How on earth people are happy to belong to an organisation that allows British subjects to be arrested for something that is legal in the UK is beyond me. One thing for sure is that if Americans wanted this " right" lefties everywhere would be getting their sandals in a right twist. It seems that belonging to a special club means more to the establishment than rights and freedoms.

 

Showing your age looks like your stuck in the 1970s talking about sandels etc so I guess you must be in your late 60s.ukip is a protest party who have no chance of winning a general election and will only l damage the Tory party leading to a labour government. Its funny how former Tory traitors defecting to ukip are happy to damage the present consertive party.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[solentstars]

We were all asked as to whether we wanted PR and the Right campaigned hard for a no vote. If they had voted for it then UKIP could have had a genuine chance to shake things up come May 15.

 

Alas for them they will be shouting stuff about a People's Army as they win a maximum of 1 seat. The Establishment is quaking.

 

No it was not pr vote but a single transferable vote which meant that the sitting mp needed over 50% plus to win his seat .

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[View From The Top]

No it was not pr vote but a single transferable vote which meant that the sitting mp needed over 50% plus to win his seat .

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

Shows how much attention I paid!

[bridge too far]

[aintforever]

No it was not pr vote but a single transferable vote which meant that the sitting mp needed over 50% plus to win his seat .

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

The single transferable vote system still means there are less wasted votes though, like PR.

 

Both the major parties are against it because it means we can elect people from whatever party we like and the mong masses just listen to their red/blue leaders. The problem was it was seen as Nick Clegg's idea and at the time he was the most unpopular person in the country.

[TwoPints]

I want laws made in UK, 100% of them, end of

 

I'm not sure I would trust British MP's to make better decisions to be honest, so I've been having a look on the googlenet at the pro's and con's of being in the EU and what laws we might have benefited from , so Pro's:

 

Providing 57% of our trade

Structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline

Clean beaches and rivers

Cleaner air

Lead free petrol

Restrictions on landfill dumping

A recycling culture

Cheaper mobile charges

Cheaper air travel

Improved consumer protection and food labelling

A ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives

Better product safety

Single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance

Break up of monopolies

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection

No paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market

Price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone

Freedom to travel, live and work across Europe

Funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad

Access to European health services

Labour protection and enhanced social welfare

Smoke-free workplaces

Equal pay legislation

Holiday entitlement

The right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime

Strongest wildlife protection in the world

Improved animal welfare in food production

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration

EU representation in international forums

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty

European arrest warrant

Cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling

Counter terrorism intelligence

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa

Support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond

Investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

EU wide Data Protection legislation to protect our personal data throughout Europe;

 

However all of this is nothing compared with the greatest achievements of the EU which has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.

 

Cons:

Nigel Farage feels uncomfortable listening to foreign languages when travelling on public transport (I assume he'll ban tourists coming into the country too in that case unless they're fluent English speakers)!

Hearsay (with no direct evidence) that UK jobseekers are losing out to immigrants who will work for less (even though we have a minimum wage!) even though an article in the FT earlier this year stated:

'The number of European migrants in the UK is almost exactly balanced by the number of Britons living elsewhere in the EU'.

 

Summary:

IMHO the (negative) impact of immigration in the UK has been exaggerated out of all proportion by the tabloid press with very little balance given to the vast benefits the UK has gained from immigration from the EU although I'm happy to be convinced otherwise.

[Jonnyboy]

:thumbup:

I'm not sure I would trust British MP's to make better decisions to be honest, so I've been having a look on the googlenet at the pro's and con's of being in the EU and what laws we might have benefited from , so Pro's:

 

Providing 57% of our trade

Structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline

Clean beaches and rivers

Cleaner air

Lead free petrol

Restrictions on landfill dumping

A recycling culture

Cheaper mobile charges

Cheaper air travel

Improved consumer protection and food labelling

A ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives

Better product safety

Single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance

Break up of monopolies

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection

No paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market

Price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone

Freedom to travel, live and work across Europe

Funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad

Access to European health services

Labour protection and enhanced social welfare

Smoke-free workplaces

Equal pay legislation

Holiday entitlement

The right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime

Strongest wildlife protection in the world

Improved animal welfare in food production

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration

EU representation in international forums

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty

European arrest warrant

Cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling

Counter terrorism intelligence

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa

Support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond

Investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

EU wide Data Protection legislation to protect our personal data throughout Europe;

 

However all of this is nothing compared with the greatest achievements of the EU which has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.

 

Cons:

Nigel Farage feels uncomfortable listening to foreign languages when travelling on public transport (I assume he'll ban tourists coming into the country too in that case unless they're fluent English speakers)!

Hearsay (with no direct evidence) that UK jobseekers are losing out to immigrants who will work for less (even though we have a minimum wage!) even though an article in the FT earlier this year stated:

'The number of European migrants in the UK is almost exactly balanced by the number of Britons living elsewhere in the EU'.

 

Summary:

IMHO the (negative) impact of immigration in the UK has been exaggerated out of all proportion by the tabloid press with very little balance given to the vast benefits the UK has gained from immigration from the EU although I'm happy to be convinced otherwise.

 

I need that post as a Web link so I can post it on Facebook.

[TwoPints]

:thumbup:

 

I need that post as a Web link so I can post it on Facebook.

 

Most of this came from a guardian article called something like 'what has the EU ever done for us' but a few bits are from the FT. The Farage comment was from QT this week with some general enhancements from yours truly putting my own point of view to all this.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I'm not sure I would trust British MP's to make better decisions to be honest, so I've been having a look on the googlenet at the pro's and con's of being in the EU and what laws we might have benefited from , so Pro's:

 

Providing 57% of our trade

Structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline

Clean beaches and rivers

Cleaner air

Lead free petrol

Restrictions on landfill dumping

A recycling culture

Cheaper mobile charges

Cheaper air travel

Improved consumer protection and food labelling

A ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives

Better product safety

Single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance

Break up of monopolies

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection

No paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market

Price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone

Freedom to travel, live and work across Europe

Funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad

Access to European health services

Labour protection and enhanced social welfare

Smoke-free workplaces

Equal pay legislation

Holiday entitlement

The right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime

Strongest wildlife protection in the world

Improved animal welfare in food production

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration

EU representation in international forums

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty

European arrest warrant

Cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling

Counter terrorism intelligence

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa

Support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond

Investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

EU wide Data Protection legislation to protect our personal data throughout Europe;

 

However all of this is nothing compared with the greatest achievements of the EU which has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.

 

Cons:

Nigel Farage feels uncomfortable listening to foreign languages when travelling on public transport (I assume he'll ban tourists coming into the country too in that case unless they're fluent English speakers)!

Hearsay (with no direct evidence) that UK jobseekers are losing out to immigrants who will work for less (even though we have a minimum wage!) even though an article in the FT earlier this year stated:

'The number of European migrants in the UK is almost exactly balanced by the number of Britons living elsewhere in the EU'.

 

Summary:

IMHO the (negative) impact of immigration in the UK has been exaggerated out of all proportion by the tabloid press with very little balance given to the vast benefits the UK has gained from immigration from the EU although I'm happy to be convinced otherwise.

 

Complete and utter nonsense, are you trying to say that there would be no holiday entitlement if we weren't in the EU, that we'd be swimming around on dirty beaches, that the labour government wouldn't have banned smoking at work, that we had 13 years of labour and they wouldn't have legislated against equal pay and labour protection. Complete and utter nonsense. Do the Swiss not have holidays, do Australians not recycle, are there not clean beaches in Florida? Laughable..........

 

Have you heard of Interpol?

 

Have you not heard of NATO?

 

When EU nutters bang on like this claiming we would be some sort of slave labour nation and we owe all our social benefits to the EU no wonder people vote ukip. Not one of the things you've listed couldn't be done out of the EU and we are quite capable of negotiating deals and cross border support and agreements where needed. I do like the"support for democracy" line. This from the body that didn't like the Irish or French democratic vote so made them keep on voting, from an organisation that is so corrupt its accounts haven't been signed for for over a decade. "Support for democracy"!!! That's the funniest line on here.

 

As for your line about immigrants working from less being "hearsay" , well Williams made that exact point, she said there were immigrants doing jobs that British workers wouldn't do , because of the pay. This was when she also claimed that unemployment was low.

Edited 10 May, 2014 by Lord Duckhunter

[TwoPints]

When EU nutters bang on like this claiming we would be some sort of slave labour nation and we owe all our social benefits to the EU no wonder people vote ukip. Not one of the things you've listed couldn't be done out of the EU

 

Interesting that you're so offended when you perceive people are accusing UKIP voters of being racists (when most of the time they're not) but you're happy to call someone that may be pro Europe a 'nutter'.

 

Yes any of those things could have been achieved outside of the EU but they weren't were they? Only when we joined the EU did they happen.

[TwoPints]

As for your line about immigrants working from less being "hearsay" , well Williams made that exact point, she said there were immigrants doing jobs that British workers wouldn't do , because of the pay. This was when she also claimed that unemployment was low.

 

Maybe if you'd taken as much notice of the rest of Williams words rather than just pick out the soundbite that suits your purposes, then you might have a more open mind.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Thank god the country doesn't take notice of what Williams and other EU extremists say. We'd be in the euro if it was down to that lot. See here's the thing with Europe , the people who were wrong time and time again are the people we're supposed to listen to. The people who told us it was a trading bloc when they wanted our vote, who told us the erm was good idea, who told us the euro was the way forward are now telling us we can't leave, are trying to frighten the people again. What was it the lib/dumbs claimed, that we'd lose jobs if we didn't join the euro, that foregin companies would relocate away if we didn't join the euro, they were wrong then and their wrong now.

 

But at the end of the day it doesn't matter what I want or what you want or what Williams wants, it should be down to the British people. The ones denying the public a say are all pro EU, telling that isn't it.They know that a proper debate and vote on the EU will result in the British people seeing the EU king is in the altogether, they know that having fooled us once, they'll not be able to do so again. Why won't the pro eu side put their case to the British public?

[TwoPints]

Thank god the country doesn't take notice of what Williams and other EU extremists say. We'd be in the euro if it was down to that lot. See here's the thing with Europe , the people who were wrong time and time again are the people we're supposed to listen to. The people who told us it was a trading bloc when they wanted our vote, who told us the erm was good idea, who told us the euro was the way forward are now telling us we can't leave, are trying to frighten the people again. What was it the lib/dumbs claimed, that we'd lose jobs if we didn't join the euro, that foregin companies would relocate away if we didn't join the euro, they were wrong then and their wrong now.

 

But at the end of the day it doesn't matter what I want or what you want or what Williams wants, it should be down to the British people. The ones denying the public a say are all pro EU, telling that isn't it.They know that a proper debate and vote on the EU will result in the British people seeing the EU king is in the altogether, they know that having fooled us once, they'll not be able to do so again. Why won't the pro eu side put their case to the British public?

 

Good morning!

 

OK, let's take this piece by piece:

1. I'm not sure it's reasonable to call Williams an 'extremist' just because she doesn't happen to share your view.

2. If you don't think people should take notice of what Williams said, then why are you quoting her in your arguments? If you discount what she said then your argument falls away.

3. Are you really saying that people shouldn't vote for any of the 'major' parties because of what you were told 40 years ago? It would be nice if people voted on the whole spectrum of a party's policies rather than focus on one policy however I get the impression that that's not going to happen in the European elections.

4. No-one is denying the British public a say on Europe. If you want to stay in, vote Labour, if you want a referendum, vote Conservative or Green (I believe) if you want out vote UKIP and suffer the consequences.

 

Throughout this thread I have asked people to explain how they have been adversely affected by the open border policy with the EU. I'm not looking for things that people have read about or hearsay (people I know say that things aren't good for instance) or quoting dodgy statistics, I'm really interested to find someone who can say, immigration from the Eu has been bad for me because.... I've yet to find anyone and therefore cannot see the argument.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm not sure I would trust British MP's to make better decisions to be honest, so I've been having a look on the googlenet at the pro's and con's of being in the EU and what laws we might have benefited from , so Pro's:

 

Providing 57% of our trade

Structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline

Clean beaches and rivers

Cleaner air

Lead free petrol

Restrictions on landfill dumping

A recycling culture

Cheaper mobile charges

Cheaper air travel

Improved consumer protection and food labelling

A ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives

Better product safety

Single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance

Break up of monopolies

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection

No paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market

Price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone

Freedom to travel, live and work across Europe

Funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad

Access to European health services

Labour protection and enhanced social welfare

Smoke-free workplaces

Equal pay legislation

Holiday entitlement

The right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime

Strongest wildlife protection in the world

Improved animal welfare in food production

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration

EU representation in international forums

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty

European arrest warrant

Cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling

Counter terrorism intelligence

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa

Support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond

Investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

EU wide Data Protection legislation to protect our personal data throughout Europe;

 

However all of this is nothing compared with the greatest achievements of the EU which has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.

 

Cons:

Nigel Farage feels uncomfortable listening to foreign languages when travelling on public transport (I assume he'll ban tourists coming into the country too in that case unless they're fluent English speakers)!

Hearsay (with no direct evidence) that UK jobseekers are losing out to immigrants who will work for less (even though we have a minimum wage!) even though an article in the FT earlier this year stated:

'The number of European migrants in the UK is almost exactly balanced by the number of Britons living elsewhere in the EU'.

 

Summary:

IMHO the (negative) impact of immigration in the UK has been exaggerated out of all proportion by the tabloid press with very little balance given to the vast benefits the UK has gained from immigration from the EU although I'm happy to be convinced otherwise.

 

Crikey, how on earth did we live before the EU?

 

If Farage bought out anything as slanted as that, he would, quite rightly, be ridiculed. Pro-EU lobby are obviously extremely worried judging by that rubbish.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Crikey, how on earth did we live before the EU?

 

If Farage bought out anything as slanted as that, he would, quite rightly, be ridiculed. Pro-EU lobby are obviously extremely worried judging by that rubbish.

 

He does though. Hence, why he is.

[Wade Garrett]

He does though. Hence, why he is.

 

Not to that extent. It's as if we'll all become destitute slaves living in a dump of a country and all getting cancer from passive smoking if we leave the EU.

[TwoPints]

Not to that extent. It's as if we'll all become destitute slaves living in a dump of a country and all getting cancer from passive smoking if we leave the EU.

 

Typical scaremongering and twisting of words.

 

I have merely listed a number of the achievements of the EU, I haven't for one minute suggested that we would have stood still without the EU but it is safe to say that a number of these initiatives that we have benefited from were opposed by the government at the time.

 

Maybe you could answer my question about how you have been adversely affected by immigration from the EU as it seems to be a question that people dont have an answer to.

[badgerx16]

If UKIP is the answer, you've asked the wrong question.

[Wade Garrett]

If UKIP is the answer, you've asked the wrong question.

 

I don't think for one minute that UKIP are the answer. But if their success in the Euro elections forces the hand of the main parties committing to a straight in/out referendum, they will have done their job.

 

I always hoped that once 1 party committed itself to a referendum, the other parties would follow. The next election will be tight, the Tories referendum pledge may just turn it in their favour. As a lifelong Labour voter, I am dismayed by Labour at the moment. Their leadership is terrible.

 

Always liked John Denham, decent principled man, but now that he's retiring I don't know who to vote for next time.

 

In short, I am not a typical right-wing xenophobe just because I am pro-democracy and anti-EU.

[Verbal]

Throughout this thread I have asked people to explain how they have been adversely affected by the open border policy with the EU. I'm not looking for things that people have read about or hearsay (people I know say that things aren't good for instance) or quoting dodgy statistics, I'm really interested to find someone who can say, immigration from the Eu has been bad for me because.... I've yet to find anyone and therefore cannot see the argument.

 

This is a good question. Could the anti-EU, UKIP knee-jerkers please stop avoiding it?

[View From The Top]

I don't think for one minute that UKIP are the answer. But if their success in the Euro elections forces the hand of the main parties committing to a straight in/out referendum, they will have done their job.

 

I always hoped that once 1 party committed itself to a referendum, the other parties would follow. The next election will be tight, the Tories referendum pledge may just turn it in their favour. As a lifelong Labour voter, I am dismayed by Labour at the moment. Their leadership is terrible.

 

Always liked John Denham, decent principled man, but now that he's retiring I don't know who to vote for next time.

 

In short, I am not a typical right-wing xenophobe just because I am pro-democracy and anti-EU.

 

I'm a leftie and have similar feelings regarding Labour (I'll vote Green) and find myself in a Pro-Europe but not Pro-EU Institutions position. The only options appear to be "in" or "out".

[TwoPints]

I don't think for one minute that UKIP are the answer. But if their success in the Euro elections forces the hand of the main parties committing to a straight in/out referendum, they will have done their job.

 

I always hoped that once 1 party committed itself to a referendum, the other parties would follow. The next election will be tight, the Tories referendum pledge may just turn it in their favour. As a lifelong Labour voter, I am dismayed by Labour at the moment. Their leadership is terrible.

 

Always liked John Denham, decent principled man, but now that he's retiring I don't know who to vote for next time.

 

In short, I am not a typical right-wing xenophobe just because I am pro-democracy and anti-EU.

 

That's fair enough. For those that want a referendum then I think UKIP have done a good job at achieving that. Personally, I don't see or feel the disadvantages of being in the EU and the arguments against being in haven't convinced me otherwise so I will continue to vote as I always have done as it makes no difference to me.

 

What does worry me about UKIP is the hidden agenda so I'm just hoping this is just a one off protest vote.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

As has been mentioned, it is positioned as an either or question when the real issue is far more complex. Most of us would vote to stay in the EU but as an institution it is broken and most of us want to fix it not abandon it.

 

The power of Brussels is disproportionate to how most of us would want it to be split between Brussels and Westminster. The instincts of the EU are profoundly undemocratic. Some of the most powerful people in the world are making decisions in our name and we have never even heard of them.

 

It is alarmingly corrupt; the fact that every year nobody will sign off the EU budget is brushed over annually. Most of think that somebody should be accountable.

 

Many of us think that the principle of one size fits all cannot apply to 27 different countries and that is a fundamental flaw.

 

Open door immigration. Most of us embrace the benefits of immigration but recognise that if you have significant variances in wealth across Europe you are at risk from sudden fluctuations in numbers entering the country. Economics say this will dilute wages and put pressure on local services and on communities. We were told 13000 Poles would arrive and a million did. It actually did wonders for our economy but lets have the right to manage the numbers.

 

Those in the Eurozone and those out of the Eurozone cannot be governed in the same context. We think this needs to be addressed or there will be major problems in the next few decades.

 

Lots of us want it to be an economic project not a political one and please do not tell us that we need to be in the EU or we will loose three million jobs. There is a surplus trade deficit with the EU so effectively they need us more than we need them. Yes of course we need each other.

 

So just because I will probably vote for UKIP don't call me a racist or a fruit cake. Without them I am disenfranchised. Lets fix Europe not walk out of it.

[hypochondriac]

That is a fantastic post.

[pap]

We were all asked as to whether we wanted PR and the Right campaigned hard for a no vote. If they had voted for it then UKIP could have had a genuine chance to shake things up come May 15.

 

Alas for them they will be shouting stuff about a People's Army as they win a maximum of 1 seat. The Establishment is quaking.

 

We were all asked to consider AV, which is really the first baby step toward a more legitimate electoral system, but wasn't PR in itself. One of the stated problems of PR is the problem that it tends to create coalitions, giving greater weight to parties who may not have polled especially well, but have agreed to form a coalition government.

 

As for whether UKIP would have voted for PR, conventional wisdom would suggest that any smaller party would favour it, as they're almost completely excluded from Westminster seats at present. Depends on what UKIP want, I suppose. If they are only seeking to bring about a referendum, first past the post allows them to punch above their weight. They know they can muddle in key marginals and make a large difference, perhaps enough to force one of the parties to break ranks. If they're looking to govern, PR would suit them better.

 

The reality is that they'll probably work both electoral systems as best they can.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

As has been mentioned, it is positioned as an either or question when the real issue is far more complex. Most of us would vote to stay in the EU but as an institution it is broken and most of us want to fix it not abandon it.

 

So just because I will probably vote for UKIP don't call me a racist or a fruit cake. Without them I am disenfranchised. Lets fix Europe not walk out of it.

 

Forgive me if I'm missing something but aren't UKIP the ones who want to pull us out of Europe? Surely they are exactly the people framing it as a simplistic in/out rather than calling for reform?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Forgive me if I'm missing something but aren't UKIP the ones who want to pull us out of Europe? Surely they are exactly the people framing it as a simplistic in/out rather than calling for reform?

 

I was merely trying to point out why in the European elections UKIP will do so well. I would argue that most UKIP voters are a lot warmer to the European idea than you would think.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

What does worry me about UKIP is the hidden agenda so I'm just hoping this is just a one off protest vote.

 

You really do spout some nonsense, go on enlighten us, what is this " hidden agenda"

 

What worrys me is the liblabcon's hidden agenda, I don't know what it is or have any proof, but because I post it, it must be true lol.

[TwoPints]

You really do spout some nonsense, go on enlighten us, what is this " hidden agenda"

 

What worrys me is the liblabcon's hidden agenda, I don't know what it is or have any proof, but because I post it, it must be true lol.

 

Lol... I knew were going to ask that... but maybe I'll answer your question (the answer to which is fairly obvious though) when you answer my question. Oh, and by the way, feel free to continue with the personal attacks, it really does weaken an argument when people have to resort to such.

[Lord Duckhunter]

So who else knows about this" hidden agenda"?

 

I would have thought the agenda was anything but " hidden" , the name UKIP is the biggest clue.

 

Oh, I can't wait until this hidden agenda is revealed. Who is going to announce it, cleggy,? Maybe ken clarke ,or are they going to leave it to you. Although it could remain hidden to all but the enlightened ones. Exciting isn't it?

[TwoPints]

OK... let me explain... The clue is in my original comment. What I said is that I was worried about the hidden agenda... if we knew what the agenda was, it wouldn't be hidden! We'd all be able to give careful consideration to UKIP's policies in the post EU world, but as that is 'hidden' from us, it is something that worries me. Simples.

 

Your turn to answer my question now about how you have been adversely affected by the outrageous (if slightly exaggerated) levels of immigration from the EU.

[TwoPints]

In the absence of a response, I'll assume that no-one on this forum has actually been adversely affected by the terrible scourge that is the freedom of movement within the EU which allows British citizens to live and work in the EU and for others to live and work in the UK. No? Didn't think so but best err on the side of caution and make sure we prevent British citizens from having the freedom of movement in the EU though.

[Orange]

 

What complete sh*t.

 

This is something that really f*cks me off about the left- they think they're in some way morally superior.

 

It's called political opinion, i don't think of myself a better human being for taking a different view on things to someone else.

 

There's nothing 'nasty' about believing we should govern our own country democratically, control and manage the boarders of our small island, and support a smaller state.

 

Typical though, just a load of emotive words with absolutely no substance or truth behind it.

[Orange]

In the absence of a response, I'll assume that no-one on this forum has actually been adversely affected by the terrible scourge that is the freedom of movement within the EU which allows British citizens to live and work in the EU and for others to live and work in the UK. No? Didn't think so but best err on the side of caution and make sure we prevent British citizens from having the freedom of movement in the EU though.

 

Top 2 destinations for British expats are Australia and the US, what about them? Not having an open border policy doesn't mean pulling up the drawbridge. People can still move around, it's just managed.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Top 2 destinations for British expats are Australia and the US, what about them? Not having an open border policy doesn't mean pulling up the drawbridge. People can still move around, it's just managed.

 

I was in Cyprus in the summer, there are loads and loads of Russians living there. There are Americans in France, Spain and Germany. The pro EU side claiming all UK nationals will be sent home, whilst Russians , Aussies and Yanks can stay is clearly nonsense.

[Lord Duckhunter]

In the absence of a response, I'll assume that no-one on this forum has actually been adversely affected by the terrible scourge that is the freedom of movement within the EU which allows British citizens to live and work in the EU and for others to live and work in the UK. No? Didn't think so but best err on the side of caution and make sure we prevent British citizens from having the freedom of movement in the EU though.

 

I've recently employed polish and Romanian workers. They were the best candidates in a selection process that included Brits. Therefore is it right to assume that those British people who didn't get the job were adversely affected. During the boom we were struggling to recruit for our minimum wage jobs, we didn't need to put the wages up to attract people because we suddenly got a steady supply of very willing and hard working people to take those jobs. Is it beyond your comprehension to see that the effect of this kept wages down

 

As a white middle class 50 year old , immigration hasn't really affected me much, but then I guess the " cost of living crises" hasn't really hit the milliband household, doesn't stop him having an opinion though doers it? Are you seriously saying that you can only comment on issues that affect yourself, that's quite a selfish point of view. For low paid unskilled poor people, immigration from eastern Europe has been a nightmare, not to mention builders etc who have had their wages undercut.

 

Then there's the democratic deficit. As a democratic I believe that the British people should govern themselves, should decide who comes into our country and in what numbers. If they decide that its in our best interests to have open borders, then so be it. The party that proposes that will put it to the people, when the people decide enough is enough, they'll kick the government out. That's a thing called democracy.

Edited 12 May, 2014 by Lord Duckhunter

[Ex Lion Tamer]

It's called political opinion, i don't think of myself a better human being for taking a different view on things to someone else.

 

There's nothing 'nasty' about believing we should govern our own country democratically, control and manage the boarders of our small island, and support a smaller state.

 

It is a bit though because it means hoarding our wealth all to ourselves rather than sharing it with people from poorer countries who didn't have all the advantages we did, e.g. education, historical predominance, dominant language etc

[Lord Duckhunter]

It is a bit though because it means hoarding our wealth all to ourselves rather than sharing it with people from poorer countries who didn't have all the advantages we did, e.g. education, historical predominance, dominant language etc

 

Do you think there should be any limit on immigration or can anybody turn up and work in the UK?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Do you think there should be any limit on immigration or can anybody turn up and work in the UK?

 

It's a tough one, and something I constantly find myself torn on.

 

On the one hand, I don't really see why through the fluke of birth we should be able to stay in this little part of the planet where we have more opportunities than those not so lucky to be born into somewhere with equally good opportunities. It does seem nasty to say, no, you were not born here, only people born here can work here. I have no problem with anyone that wants to work hard and further there lives coming to the UK to do so. Why should they not? I would probably do the same thing if I was in their situation.

 

There also seems to be some misconception amongst some (not everyone) that all foreign immigrants come to the UK and live a life of luxury. That is rarely the case. They often work and live in some pretty squalid conditions.

 

But, I do too share concerns about things such as infrastructure. Housing, hospitals, doctors, schools, transport etc. These are genuine concerns, and there is a strong case that when immigration was very high earlier this century, these things were neglected - this of course causes problems.

 

I have no problem with immigration, as long as plans are put into place to make sure we can accommodate immigrants. This is something we have not done well previously.

 

My problem with UKIP is the way they frame the debate. It is nothing but fear mongering and scare tactics. Those election campaign posters were vile. Even if they were not racist, they certainly were nasty.

 

UKIP served a purpose in raising the issues of immigration and EU. Yes, at the time they weren't being discussed. It simply isn't true that that is still the case.

 

Stewart Lee's quote above feels pretty apt for me. They are nasty, you can blame the media all you want, but there members constantly show themselves as pretty nasty people, who for all their protestations are no better than those they claim to be a change from. They also are total one trick ponies. We want out of the EU, 95% of people of say they will vote for them have no idea what they stand for other than EU, and probably think they will stop immigration. If they got any where near power it would be an utter disaster.

 

The EU is far from perfect, I'm certainly not its biggest fan. But I would be concerned about just pulling out as UKIP want. For the wailing that was thrown at the poster that listed some of the good things that have come about as a result of the EU, and the "oh it's as if we would be a destitute 3rd world country without the EU" if one listened to the Anti-EU & UKIP crowd, it is as if we are full to bursting and a 3rd world destitute country with it. The truth of course lies somewhere in the middle.

 

No doubt it's time for me to put a hard hat on now.

 

Edit: ps: Just becuase I agree with Stewart Lee, I'm not a leftie, just ask pap.

Edited 12 May, 2014 by KelvinsRightGlove

[Orange]

It is a bit though because it means hoarding our wealth all to ourselves rather than sharing it with people from poorer countries who didn't have all the advantages we did, e.g. education, historical predominance, dominant language etc

 

You can do that yourself though, why do you need the government to take from you and decide which charitable project to spend it on? I'd rather choose myself, we're one of the most charitable nations in the world- something to certainly be proud of. That said I wouldn't support cutting the aid budget all together.

[Orange]

I was in Cyprus in the summer, there are loads and loads of Russians living there. There are Americans in France, Spain and Germany. The pro EU side claiming all UK nationals will be sent home, whilst Russians , Aussies and Yanks can stay is clearly nonsense.

Exactly.

The funniest one Labour/Lib Dems often suggest is that Spain, currently in a huge Oversupply of houses, is going to start sending Brits home!

[View From The Top]

Do you think there should be any limit on immigration or can anybody turn up and work in the UK?

 

Personally I'm happy with inter-EU migration for work as it works both ways. The Poles, Slovaks, Lats etc that I know & work with are all decent hardworking people trying to make a better life for their kids. Hard to begrudge them that.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Personally I'm happy with inter-EU migration for work as it works both ways. The Poles, Slovaks, Lats etc that I know & work with are all decent hardworking people trying to make a better life for their kids. Hard to begrudge them that.

 

But what if allowing more poles and Romanians in means that less people from Africa or India are able to live and work here. Why should somebody from Germany be treated differently than somebody from India?

[View From The Top]

But what if allowing more poles and Romanians in means that less people from Africa or India are able to live and work here. Why should somebody from Germany be treated differently than somebody from India?

 

I have no issues with the system. We can go and live, work & study there and they can come and live, work & study here. I fully intend to take advantage of it when I retire and my son is already thinking about going to uni in Holland.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

But what if allowing more poles and Romanians in means that less people from Africa or India are able to live and work here. Why should somebody from Germany be treated differently than somebody from India?

 

I love how UKIP are now trying to present themselves as the anti-racists with this line.

[Orange]

I love how UKIP are now trying to present themselves as the anti-racists with this line.

 

They're just stating the fact, which is UKIP have the only immigration policy which does not discriminate on race? It's like your saying UKIP shouldn't be able to defend itself from accusations of being a racist party.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

They're just stating the fact, which is UKIP have the only immigration policy which does not discriminate on race? It's like your saying UKIP shouldn't be able to defend itself from accusations of being a racist party.

 

 

Amazing. I suggest looking up the differences between race & nationality.

[Mystic Force]

Before we were in the EU we had an Empire, but the people living there decided that they didnt like living under a system where people a long way away told them what to do and wanted to do it for themselves.