More UKIP bother

[Lord Duckhunter]

I love the fact that my kids, as well as me when they've left home, are free to live and work anywhere in the EU with no hassles.

 

Long may that continue.

 

Even if it means taking a job that could be done by a native or living in a house where there's a waiting list and locals can't get housed? I guess it's every man for himself, never had you down as a Tory .

 

Btw , what are the hassles you write about? What hassles do Canadians or Australians looking to settle in Germany face that uk citizens don't have ? And are these hassles so bad that it's worth giving up some of our sovereignty for? Cutting red tape, are you sure you're not turning into a Tory?

[pap]

I love the fact that my kids, as well as me when they've left home, are free to live and work anywhere in the EU with no hassles.

 

Long may that continue.

 

Is it a decent trade-off though?

 

I mean, the thing that people seem to have missed is that the UK is no longer a full sovereign nation while it is signed up to the EU. Many of our sovereign powers are trumped by the decisions that the EU commission, an unelected body, manages to get through the European Parliament. These are people with a huge amount of power that have no democratic mandate.

 

No-one would accept a Prime Minister that was simply plucked from a preferred political class. The bastards at least have to get votes for it and can be held to account for their decisions at the next election. That being the case, why do EU citizens have no say on who runs the larger sovereign body we belong to?

 

Even the stated aims of European integration, such as the prevention of another general war in Europe, seem a little fragile at the moment. Fair dos, I can't see the Germans doing a repeat of Gleiwitz anytime soon, but I can see the Russians getting increasingly miffed about what they see as encroachment on their territory.

[buctootim]

Even if it means taking a job that could be done by a native or living in a house where there's a waiting list and locals can't get housed? I guess it's every man for himself, never had you down as a Tory .

 

Btw , what are the hassles you write about? What hassles do Canadians or Australians looking to settle in Germany face that uk citizens don't have ? And are these hassles so bad that it's worth giving up some of our sovereignty for? Cutting red tape, are you sure you're not turning into a Tory?

 

Sounds pretty anti immigration to me. All these unskilled immigrants taking jobs from locals. How does an unskilled worker with limited English and no experience of British culture perform better at an interview than an unskilled, English native tongue local?

 

Why not just come out and say you're anti immigration? I am at heart. I think it benefits companies and disadvantages people already here by preventing a labour shortage which would otherwise drive up wages. Cheap labour means companies dont need to invest in more efficient production machinery. And of course it drives up house prices, reducing everyone's (apart from landlords) disposable income. Overall though I think the benefits of the EU outweigh the disadvantages and I wouldn't trust UKIP in Government to make good decisions on immigration, let alone all the other other issues.

Edited 7 November, 2014 by buctootim

[Bearsy]

they're cheaper tim. We've got some + they're v.cheap. We've also got a dwarf! I can't wait to see how much time this dwarf bro takes off at christmas, I can hardly sleep nights wondering bout it! It's great where i work!

[buctootim]

they're cheaper tim. We've got some + they're v.cheap. We've also got a dwarf! I can't wait to see how much time this dwarf bro takes off at christmas, I can hardly sleep nights wondering bout it! It's great where i work!

 

You should be an sourcing adviser to Saints Bearsy! Saints used to have a dwarf but he wasn't cheap. My favourite part of dwarfs is the patronising pat on the head you can give them, and the angry snarl you get back. Whats your favourite?

[Halo Stickman]

they're cheaper tim. We've got some + they're v.cheap. We've also got a dwarf! I can't wait to see how much time this dwarf bro takes off at christmas, I can hardly sleep nights wondering bout it! It's great where i work!

 

Thank heavens for Bear! All that sober, rational and intelligent debate was making me think I’d signed in to the wrong forum.

[Bearsy]

You should be an sourcing adviser to Saints Bearsy! Saints used to have a dwarf but he wasn't cheap. My favourite part of dwarfs is the patronising pat on the head you can give them, and the angry snarl you get back. Whats your favourite?

 

I've got pulled up 3 times already for walking around whistling the "Hi-ho" song I can't help it! It's involuntary!

[pap]

You should be an sourcing adviser to Saints Bearsy! Saints used to have a dwarf but he wasn't cheap. My favourite part of dwarfs is the patronising pat on the head you can give them, and the angry snarl you get back. Whats your favourite?

 

I'm duty bound to snarl. Dwarf code, innit?

 

I'm thinking of having another play on your username.

 

Muchtooginge or Notenoughmínge?

 

Your call

[View From The Top]

Is it a decent trade-off though?

 

I mean, the thing that people seem to have missed is that the UK is no longer a full sovereign nation while it is signed up to the EU. Many of our sovereign powers are trumped by the decisions that the EU commission, an unelected body, manages to get through the European Parliament. These are people with a huge amount of power that have no democratic mandate.

 

No-one would accept a Prime Minister that was simply plucked from a preferred political class. The bastards at least have to get votes for it and can be held to account for their decisions at the next election. That being the case, why do EU citizens have no say on who runs the larger sovereign body we belong to?

 

Even the stated aims of European integration, such as the prevention of another general war in Europe, seem a little fragile at the moment. Fair dos, I can't see the Germans doing a repeat of Gleiwitz anytime soon, but I can see the Russians getting increasingly miffed about what they see as encroachment on their territory.

 

Don't confuse my love of the European ideal with that of the EU as a political entity. I love the former and despair of the latter.

[View From The Top]

Even if it means taking a job that could be done by a native or living in a house where there's a waiting list and locals can't get housed? I guess it's every man for himself, never had you down as a Tory .

 

Btw , what are the hassles you write about? What hassles do Canadians or Australians looking to settle in Germany face that uk citizens don't have ? And are these hassles so bad that it's worth giving up some of our sovereignty for? Cutting red tape, are you sure you're not turning into a Tory?

 

We live in a global economy. Deal with it.

[solentstars]

About 35 million imo. We missed that boat long ago. Reality is the world has changed. every major country in the world is seeing large population shifts driven by global trade and multinational employers. Its too late to pull the drawbridge up now.

good post and you would have thought those who want a return to 1950s politics would have got it by now.

[solentstars]

Even if it means taking a job that could be done by a native or living in a house where there's a waiting list and locals can't get housed? I guess it's every man for himself, never had you down as a Tory .

 

Btw , what are the hassles you write about? What hassles do Canadians or Australians looking to settle in Germany face that uk citizens don't have ? And are these hassles so bad that it's worth giving up some of our sovereignty for? Cutting red tape, are you sure you're not turning into a Tory?

well you have to blame ma thatcher for that when she sold off the council houses and unfortunately successive governments have carried on that policy.

[pap]

good post and you would have thought those who want a return to 1950s politics would have got it by now.

Are the 1950s really the best example?

 

Say what you want about the politics. Most people I know old enough to remember them think the fifties were a golden age.

[Sour Mash]

I love the fact that my kids, as well as me when they've left home, are free to live and work anywhere in the EU with no hassles.

 

Long may that continue.

How many Brits are going to work in roles in the EU that they weren't able to undertake prior to 2004?

 

You might love that as an option, but the cold, hard reality of free movement within the EU and mass immigration into this country has resulted in large numbers of Brits being undercut in the labour market, with the costs of housing being disproportionally pushed up.

[Sour Mash]

Even if it means taking a job that could be done by a native or living in a house where there's a waiting list and locals can't get housed? I guess it's every man for himself, never had you down as a Tory .

 

Btw , what are the hassles you write about? What hassles do Canadians or Australians looking to settle in Germany face that uk citizens don't have ? And are these hassles so bad that it's worth giving up some of our sovereignty for? Cutting red tape, are you sure you're not turning into a Tory?

Exactly, classic Tory "I'm alright Jack" attitude there.

[View From The Top]

Exactly, classic Tory "I'm alright Jack" attitude there.

 

Stop being so utterly childish. The simple fact is the world we live in is a global marketplace with millions of Europeans living and working in other countries. Only the feeble minded little Englanders associate that with "taking our jobs".

 

My kids are growing up in a world where living and working overseas is considered normal. My wife and I will take advantage of the right to move and buy property in Europe and again many see that as utterly normal.

 

As far as those who don't, there opinion isn't worth a lot to me anyway.

[View From The Top]

How many Brits are going to work in roles in the EU that they weren't able to undertake prior to 2004?

 

You might love that as an option, but the cold, hard reality of free movement within the EU and mass immigration into this country has resulted in large numbers of Brits being undercut in the labour market, with the costs of housing being disproportionally pushed up.

 

That was a party political broadcast on behalf of the UK Independence Party.

[hypochondriac]

That was a party political broadcast on behalf of the UK Independence Party.

 

Says the man who in the previous post said stop being so childish!

[Lord Duckhunter]

We live in a global economy. Deal with it.

 

So why are Australians , Africans and Canadians subject to different rules than Greeks. You said it was a global world , does that not extend beyond the borders of the EUSSR.

 

Surely in your utopia the citizens of the world should be allowed to settle anywhere. **** the citizens of a particular country , all that matters is that you and your kids can work and live where they damn well want. Don't worry too much about the locals , we could always move them onto a reservation

[View From The Top]

So why are Australians , Africans and Canadians subject to different rules than Greeks. You said it was a global world , does that not extend beyond the borders of the EUSSR.

 

Surely in your utopia the citizens of the world should be allowed to settle anywhere. **** the citizens of a particular country , all that matters is that you and your kids can work and live where they damn well want. Don't worry too much about the locals , we could always move them onto a reservation

 

LOL.

[View From The Top]

Says the man who in the previous post said stop being so childish!

 

What the man said could have quite easily come the election literature of UKIP and whilst I'll happily accept the issue of housing in London it simply isn't true in the rest of the UK.

 

My experience of Europeans in the UK, and my next door neighbours are Slovak and at the back of us they are Poles, is of hard working folk building a better lives for their kids.

 

I have a far, far, far bigger beef about the uncontrolled immigration from the sub-continent during the Blair years.

[solentstars]

Stop being so utterly childish. The simple fact is the world we live in is a global marketplace with millions of Europeans living and working in other countries. Only the feeble minded little Englanders associate that with "taking our jobs".

 

My kids are growing up in a world where living and working overseas is considered normal. My wife and I will take advantage of the right to move and buy property in Europe and again many see that as utterly normal.

 

As far as those who don't, there opinion isn't worth a lot to me anyway.

good post i suppose it boils down to what type of mindset ,if you have a positive mindset your more likely to see the opportunity's available and if your a negative person your more likely to see doom and gloom i expect.

[Sour Mash]

Stop being so utterly childish. The simple fact is the world we live in is a global marketplace with millions of Europeans living and working in other countries. Only the feeble minded little Englanders associate that with "taking our jobs".

 

My kids are growing up in a world where living and working overseas is considered normal. My wife and I will take advantage of the right to move and buy property in Europe and again many see that as utterly normal.

 

As far as those who don't, there opinion isn't worth a lot to me anyway.

Living and working overseas has been considered normal for hundreds of years. You're behind the times. And don't ever call me childish again. Edited 7 November, 2014 by Sour Mash

[Sour Mash]

That was a party political broadcast on behalf of the UK Independence Party.

 

That the best you can come up with Out of touch Tory "I'm alright Jack".

[benjii]

 

I have a far, far, far bigger beef about the uncontrolled immigration from the sub-continent during the Blair years.

 

We live in a global economy, deal with it (or some such needlessly aggressive idiocy).

[Sour Mash]

So why are Australians , Africans and Canadians subject to different rules than Greeks. You said it was a global world , does that not extend beyond the borders of the EUSSR.

 

Surely in your utopia the citizens of the world should be allowed to settle anywhere. **** the citizens of a particular country , all that matters is that you and your kids can work and live where they damn well want. Don't worry too much about the locals , we could always move them onto a reservation

Anyone who uses "deal with it" is struggling to form a coherent argument, don't confuse them any further.

[Sour Mash]

We live in a global economy, deal with it (or some such needlessly aggressive idiocy).

You're confusing him even further now. Let him cherry pick in peace.

[Wade Garrett]

i can,t wait for us to leave and be on our own outside our biggest market and renegotiate all our trade deals around the world then i woke up from fantasy islandthe reality is the likely outcome of the next election is another coalition or a labour win based on our split between the two conservative party's (ukip). looks like a repeat of the 1980s when the labour vote was split with the sdp. unfortunately we four of the most useless party leaders i,ve seen in my lifetime. i hate the politics of fear and negativity they all preach.

 

Nutshell.

[Wade Garrett]

I agree that we're unlikely to see mass ejections - either way, but I do think there will be impacts.

 

One such impact of us leaving the EU, would probably be related to what happens to the local health care cover for those 1M+ expats in Spain.

 

I don't know if domiciled ex-pats rely on that (e111 card?) that we holiday-making Brits do. But I would imagine that we might see some of those ex-pats over retirement age choosing to return for health reasons.

 

I could also imagine that their status might change over time too, so that instead of being seen as fellow European citizens that contribute economically, they might start to be blamed for the undoubted negative impact that the UK leaving the EU would have.

 

How beautifully ironic would that be? The expat Brit that loves Spain and the Spanish people, being demonised as an outsider and blamed for the fresh economic turmoil that Spain would be experiencing due to the UK's exit from the EU.

 

I could see groups of Spanish youths, well youths at first, but it would surely quickly spread to the oldest Spaniards and then to the majority, each finding it difficult to reconcile the fact that Spain's economy has now gone from bad to worse due to these strangers that live amongst them.

 

Expats Brits, who had spent years integrating themselves into Spanish life and culture, and who had embraced the Spanish people and land, and who had spent their pensions in Spanish shops and paid their Spanish taxes, would slowly find themselves experiencing a different treatment.

 

People who once simply ignored them when their economy was OK, were now starting to blame them for this fresh downturn.

 

Political parties in Spain would start to recognise that if they wanted power, they would need to speak for the average Miguel in the street, and represent his concerns about the 1M outsiders that live amongst them and surely sponge off their already struggling economy.

 

Commentators would rationalise that Spain can only sustain a certain number of people, and that if they had less people living there, they surely would each enjoy a better standard of life.

 

And over time, the average Maria in the street would start to focus her attention away from their own hardships, and by attempting to take control of their otherwise poor life, they would join the movement to blame the Brits.

 

A vision that couldn't happen? Perhaps.

 

Or is this what is happening right here, right now?

 

Personally I just can't relate to this feeling of us being overrun with immigrants. I'm not judging you because your thoughts are different, it's just that the way I live my life, and living where I do, it has zero day-to-day impact on me.

 

I'm sure there must be macroeconomic impacts that affect me, but they are simply too abstract for me to feel on a daily basis. What's more I also assume that because I don't feel this on a daily basis, there must be some sort of problem-reducing net effect when taking the positives and the negatives together.

 

Either way, it just isn't real enough for me on a day-to-day basis to make me passionate or angry enough to campaign to change things.

 

The people I blame for the difficulties we find ourselves in are those that ran the financial institutions badly, and those that let them do this. And even then, I recognise that finance at that level is so complex and 'unreal', that few could really have predicted the impact it would have. And fewer still would have been brave enough to turn off the gravy-tap and legislate to 'force' their financial services sector to relocate to less regulated climes.

 

In short, we are where we are due to immensely complex financial factors caused by a butterfly wing flapping somewhere in New York. It sucks. But that's the cause.

 

I do recognise that if I lived in an area where the immigrant population was particularly large, and that perhaps because if this impacted my ability to find work, or that my family was affected in some way, then I might reach a different conclusion.

 

I'd like to think that I would still try to see individuals impacting me in individual circumstances. I'd like to think that, but it's very easy for me to say that from the outside. So as I say, I won't judge anyone who reaches a different conclusion who has been directly impacted.

 

The concern I have, is that I believe that many who are targeting immigration have not been directly impacted in the way I describe. At the same time, I feel that all of them have been impacted by the stupid politicians and the greedy bankers.

 

I fear that those who are lining up to make their UKIP mark are simply using immigration to rationalise their poor quality of life in these straitened times.

 

It's human nature to want to try to take back control when we've been shafted by stupid politicians and greedy bankers. The feeling of helplessness is not one that human condition can live with for very long without losing the balance of one's mind, or taking positive steps to grab back control and to be helpless no longer.

 

Being told that we have decades of austerity ahead of us isn't an easy pill to swallow. So for many, finding a target for our anger and frustration has meant focussing on outsiders - those that are not like 'us'. They surely must be to blame, and if they're not, taking positive control and focussing our anger and energy on them at least makes us feel better.

 

Can I ask you, and others that feel there is an issue over immigration, whether you are or have been directly impacted by it?

 

I'm really not looking to score points, not looking to judge you, and I'd understand if you're not comfortable sharing your personal situation.

 

But I'm interested to see why you (each) have formed those views. And I'm asking about direct impacts here. Or perhaps you'll be happy enough to admit that you are simply reaching an intellectual conclusion that all or part of the problems we find ourselves with must surely have been caused by immigration?

 

Well-reasoned post, but the fact remains that no matter how affluent or poor our small island is, we can only sustain a population of so much.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

So why are Australians , Africans and Canadians subject to different rules than Greeks. You said it was a global world , does that not extend beyond the borders of the EUSSR.

 

Surely in your utopia the citizens of the world should be allowed to settle anywhere. **** the citizens of a particular country , all that matters is that you and your kids can work and live where they damn well want. Don't worry too much about the locals , we could always move them onto a reservation

 

Things like EUSSR (being used constantly) make it hard to take it seriously. You're clearly not thick, but it's just childish.

 

Anyway, again. This comparison is false equivalence.

[solentstars]

Things like EUSSR (being used constantly) make it hard to take it seriously. You're clearly not thick, but it's just childish.

 

Anyway, again. This comparison is false equivalence.

I think its a age thing,I don't think younger voters have a clue what eussr is or ecc or sandel wearing liberals or who Ted heath is but that what the oldies like us remember from the 1970s .?

[pap]

Things like EUSSR (being used constantly) make it hard to take it seriously. You're clearly not thick, but it's just childish.

 

Anyway, again. This comparison is false equivalence.

 

Why is it childish?

 

Do you think Greece and Spain felt the warm glow of democracy when the unelected executive of the EU decided to enforce austerity on them?

 

I think its a age thing,I don't think younger voters have a clue what eussr is or ecc or sandel wearing liberals or who Ted heath is but that what the oldies like us remember from the 1970s .

 

No it isn't. It's posters like yourself and KRG, that I normally have a great deal of time for, wilfully ignoring the fact that as well as visiting Haut de la Garenne in Jersey, Ted Heath signed this country's sovereignty away.

[hutch]

Why is it childish?

 

Do you think Greece and Spain felt the warm glow of democracy when the unelected executive of the EU decided to enforce austerity on them?

Do you think anybody with half an ounce of common sense doesn't think if you keep on and on and on spending money that you haven't got, that some day soon austerity isn't going to come a-knocking?

[Orange]

More research on effects of immigration

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29910497

 

The 'academic' who wrote that was the same person who informed the Labour Party just 12,000 Eastern Europeans would come.

Edited 10 November, 2014 by Orange

[pap]

Do you think anybody with half an ounce of common sense doesn't think if you keep on and on and on spending money that you haven't got, that some day soon austerity isn't going to come a-knocking?

 

Money is created out of thin air based on a promise to pay. It is a fiction made real, backed by nothing except belief, court orders and bailiffs.

 

You'd paint the Greek citizens as irresponsible, yet they have one of the lowest burdens of household debt in the EU. They actually thought they'd be fine, for that specific reason. Sorry mucker, but it works both ways. The lenders didn't have to give the Greek government the money, knew that it could not pay it back, but lent it anyway because they knew that the EU would sort them.

[buctootim]

Money is created out of thin air based on a promise to pay. It is a fiction made real, backed by nothing except belief, court orders and bailiffs.

 

You'd paint the Greek citizens as irresponsible, yet they have one of the lowest burdens of household debt in the EU. They actually thought they'd be fine, for that specific reason. Sorry mucker, but it works both ways. The lenders didn't have to give the Greek government the money, knew that it could not pay it back, but lent it anyway because they knew that the EU would sort them.

 

Actually they lent it because the Greek government fiddled the books and lied about both spending and tax receipts, aided by Goldman Sachs.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html

http://demonocracy.info/infographics/eu/debt_greek/debt_greek.html

Edited 10 November, 2014 by buctootim

[pap]

Actually they lent it because the Greek government fiddled the books and lied about both spending and tax receipts.

 

The Greek government were known to be creatively accounting since 2002. The cash was tossed anyway. Goldman Sachs helped them mask the figures through derivative swaps.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-06/goldman-secret-greece-loan-shows-two-sinners-as-client-unravels.html

 

The EU suspected something was up as early as 2004, when Eurostat was sent there to firm things up. Money continued to be lent to the Greek government until 2010, when the reports of falsified data broke in the mainstream news. Even so, that's six years of continued lending despite strong suspicions that things weren't on the up and up.

[buctootim]

The Greek government were known to be creatively accounting since 2002. The cash was tossed anyway. Goldman Sachs helped them mask the figures through derivative swaps.

 

The EU suspected something was up as early as 2004, when Eurostat was sent there to firm things up. Money continued to be lent to the Greek government until 2010, when the reports of falsified data broke in the mainstream news

 

Thats true, but realistically what else could they have done about it? The cheating was done by a legitimately elected government. The EU sent in auditors and attempted to get real data. Do you solve the problems of a dysfunctional country by keeping the money supply going and trying to reform it, or pull the plug let it totally collapse and see a total meltdown of society and infrastructure - far far worse than anything EU enforced austerity has done.

[Orange]

I was speaking to someone pretty high in the medical profession (and a UKIP voter) who was basically saying the government is stoping or at least making it incredibly difficult for people from outside the EU who the NHS are genuinely crying out for, to come because they are desperately trying to get immigration figures down from outside the EU to compensate for the growling influx of unskilled labour coming in from within the EU which they can't control.

 

Like wise I work with a women from Africa who married an Englshmen and works her arse off etc but has had to jump through hoop after hoop, and has had to spend thousands.

 

A lot on this thread seem unable to understand you can have a managed immigration policy without a complete open door. Surely it's one of the basic rolls of a modern day govt, to be abe to monitor and control numbers coming into the country inline with infrastructure/jobs etc? Even more so for such a small overcrowded country like ours.

 

Can someone on here please explain why a New Zealnder should be discriminated against in favour of a Bulgarian? Because that's what a lot are defending on here.

 

And before I get the usual 'but lots of Brits live in Spain, Frace etc' let's bare in mind over a million Brits live in Oz, well over a million in Canada and the US, well over 200,000 in NZ etc etc.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Why is it childish?

 

Do you think Greece and Spain felt the warm glow of democracy when the unelected executive of the EU decided to enforce austerity on them?

 

 

 

No it isn't. It's posters like yourself and KRG, that I normally have a great deal of time for, wilfully ignoring the fact that as well as visiting Haut de la Garenne in Jersey, Ted Heath signed this country's sovereignty away.

 

Because it's the sort of nonsense that litters his (I assume Lord D is a bloke, if not sincere apologies) posts - and are usually taken straight out of the book of Nigelisms that utterly cringeworthy - see Lib Dumbs (LMFAO!!!!) etc. It adds nothing to any argument, it is childish.

 

You know I like you pap, but your way of simply dismissing anyone that disagrees with you isn't a great look, and has frustrated me on many an occasion. I know you get a lot of crap at here on times, and I can understand why you may want to bat people away at times. Some of the stuff is pretty ugly, I try not to get involved (I'm not always successful at this I will admit) - but simply dismissing people as having "no idea what they talking about".

 

Signing away this country's sovereignty is opinion, not fact.

[Orange]

Stop being so utterly childish. The simple fact is the world we live in is a global marketplace with millions of Europeans living and working in other countries. Only the feeble minded little Englanders associate that with "taking our jobs".

 

My kids are growing up in a world where living and working overseas is considered normal. My wife and I will take advantage of the right to move and buy property in Europe and again many see that as utterly normal.

 

As far as those who don't, there opinion isn't worth a lot to me anyway.

 

And there it is...the 'Little Englander' card for anyone who believes in controlling numbers of European immigration into our country.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I was speaking to someone pretty high in the medical profession (and a UKIP voter) who was basically saying the government is stoping or at least making it incredibly difficult for people from outside the EU who the NHS are genuinely crying out for, to come because they are desperately trying to get immigration figures down from outside the EU to compensate for the growling influx of unskilled labour coming in from within the EU which they can't control.

 

Like wise I work with a women from Africa who married an Englshmen and works her arse off etc but has had to jump through hoop after hoop, and has had to spend thousands.

 

A lot on this thread seem unable to understand you can have a managed immigration policy without a complete open door. Surely it's one of the basic rolls of a modern day govt, to be abe to monitor and control numbers coming into the country inline with infrastructure/jobs etc? Even more so for such a small overcrowded country like ours.

 

Can someone on here please explain why a New Zealnder should be discriminated against in favour of a Bulgarian? Because that's what a lot are defending on here.

 

And before I get the usual 'but lots of Brits live in Spain, Frace etc' let's bare in mind over a million Brits live in Oz, well over a million in Canada and the US, well over 200,000 in NZ etc etc.

 

Because again, for the third time this is false equivalence. The situation of an EU citizen coming into the UK is not the same as a Non-EU citizen coming here. Members of EU states pay into the EU kitty, which benefits everyone in the EU. As I said before, the extent to which we properly benefit from this is debatable and is indeed a valid discussion that is absolutely worth having.

 

But, it is also not negligible. There are numerous cities that have benefitted from things such as the Urban Renewal fund (ahem, Liverpool pap) which comes from EU funding. There may well be some areas don't do as well, but the direct comparison to Aussies, Canadians etc is not a fair one.

[pap]

Because it's the sort of nonsense that litters his (I assume Lord D is a bloke, if not sincere apologies) posts - and are usually taken straight out of the book of Nigelisms that utterly cringeworthy - see Lib Dumbs (LMFAO!!!!) etc. It adds nothing to any argument, it is childish.

 

You know I like you pap, but your way of simply dismissing anyone that disagrees with you isn't a great look, and has frustrated me on many an occasion. I know you get a lot of crap at here on times, and I can understand why you may want to bat people away at times. Some of the stuff is pretty ugly, I try not to get involved (I'm not always successful at this I will admit) - but simply dismissing people as having "no idea what they talking about".

 

Signing away this country's sovereignty is opinion, not fact.

 

Sorry mate. I don't agree.

 

Heath got us in initially, Major signed us up for more with Maastricht and New Labour did the same with the Lisbon Treaty.

 

All of those treaties transferred powers to the EU, so you'll forgive me if I have difficulty understanding how you've turned that fact into mere opinion.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Sorry mate. I don't agree.

 

Heath got us in initially, Major signed us up for more with Maastricht and New Labour did the same with the Lisbon Treaty.

 

All of those treaties transferred powers to the EU, so you'll forgive me if I have difficulty understanding how you've turned that fact into mere opinion.

 

That's fine. I didn't expect you to agree. I'm sure plenty don't.

 

I don't agree, well certainly not to the degree that you and others put forward that this is the case.

[Orange]

Because again, for the third time this is false equivalence. The situation of an EU citizen coming into the UK is not the same as a Non-EU citizen coming here. Members of EU states pay into the EU kitty, which benefits everyone in the EU. As I said before, the extent to which we properly benefit from this is debatable and is indeed a valid discussion that is absolutely worth having.

 

But, it is also not negligible. There are numerous cities that have benefitted from things such as the Urban Renewal fund (ahem, Liverpool pap) which comes from EU funding. There may well be some areas don't do as well, but the direct comparison to Aussies, Canadians etc is not a fair one.

 

So you're sort of saying Europe is one borderless federal community? I guess that's why I'd vote to leave. I know we get regional grants back etc but we effectively put in far more than we get back, and are then told what we are allowed to spend our change on.

 

But we live in a global world, do you not think regardless of what continent you come from you should be judged on your merit and what you can bring to the UK? If anything in my opinion there is a stronger argument for an open door to New Zealand etc because of our strong cultural ties. Not that I'd support an open door from anywhere.

[buctootim]

Sorry mate. I don't agree.

 

Heath got us in initially, Major signed us up for more with Maastricht and New Labour did the same with the Lisbon Treaty.

 

All of those treaties transferred powers to the EU, so you'll forgive me if I have difficulty understanding how you've turned that fact into mere opinion.

 

Because Parliament voted to join the EU club and voted to on all new stages, thats the way democracy has always operated in the UK. Very few states have the Swiss system of frequent direct referenda on big issues. We voted to join the club get the benefits and comply with the rules. We can equally vote to leave. There is no loss of sovereignty, just a complaint that the electorate public havent had a vote - which is a different issue.

[pap]

That's fine. I didn't expect you to agree. I'm sure plenty don't.

 

I don't agree, well certainly not to the degree that you and others put forward that this is the case.

 

I think the difference between our positions is merely that I'm going to the trouble of qualifying mine.

 

You are arguing that membership of the EU does not affect the sovereignty of its members. It is a position that is undone by the three treaties I've mentioned, the amount of EU-originated law that we pass via the undemocratic mechanism of statutory instrument and events elsewhere in the Union, such as the installation of technocratic governments in the likes of Greece and Italy that have no democratic mandate.

 

I think those are all strong points that support my claim that the EU erodes sovereignty.

 

What's behind your disagreement?

[pap]

Because Parliament voted to join the EU club and voted to on all new stages, thats the way democracy has always operated in the UK. Very few states have the Swiss system of frequent direct referenda on big issues. We voted to join the club get the benefits and comply with the rules. We can equally vote to leave. There is no loss of sovereignty, just a complaint that the electorate public havent had a vote - which is a different issue.

 

So it's like a democracy where people aren't allowed to vote?

 

Fair enough then.

[buctootim]

So it's like a democracy where people aren't allowed to vote?

 

Fair enough then.

 

Whats your problem with debating rationally? You start off well and then always default to making lame comments when somebody puts a sound counterpoint to your argument.

 

Was there a referendum when we joined the Commonwealth? the WTO? the Berlin Convention (which decided tax policy globally). NATO?

Edited 10 November, 2014 by buctootim

[pap]

Whats your problem with debating rationally? You start off well and then always default to making lame comments when somebody puts a sound counterpoint to your argument.

 

Was there a referendum when we joined the Commonwealth? the WTO? the Berlin Convention (which decided tax policy globally). NATO?

 

I have no issue with that.

 

Why do you contend that the two line destruction of your "is the way it is" apologism is invalid?