More UKIP bother

[hypochondriac]

Because its a reciprocal agreement. We go there freely they come here. The US and Australia have strict immigration criteria, so do we.

 

Yeah that's what I disagree with.

[buctootim]

Yeah that's what I disagree with.

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5cd640f6-9025-11e3-a776-00144feab7de.html#axzz3IHzSPeIv

The number of European migrants in the UK is almost exactly balanced by the number of Britons living elsewhere in the EU, according to official figures. About 1.8m Britons live in Europe, with Spain boasting an expat population of just over 1m UK citizens, according to government estimates. Of the Britons living in Europe, 400,000 are claiming a state pension from the UK. That compares with an estimate of 2.34m EU citizens living in the UK, according to the latest official figures

 

Cameron shelves immigration report amongst lack of evidence

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/838de446-7d2f-11e3-a579-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3IHzSPeIv

David Cameron shelved a government report on EU migration, after Theresa May, home secretary, failed to provide evidence to support her case for imposing tighter curbs on immigrants.

Edited 6 November, 2014 by buctootim

[solentstars]

Freedom of movement facilitates freedom of trade. An EU citizen driving a lorry can take a load point-to-point anywhere within the Union. Back in the day, that would have involved travel permits, border controls and checkpoints - these days it mostly doesn't.

You explained that very well pap.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

This is the idiocy I'm talking about. I'm not a 'ukipper' I voted for the tories last time and labour before that. It's your pathetic attitude that makes people disillusioned with politics in general. There is no mental gymnastics involved. I can't speak for ukip but I want fairness with immigration. If we need a profession then we should be welcoming to anyone from around the world who can contribute to this country not just anyone who fancies it from Europe.

 

Crikey. For someone that's not a UKIPper you get mighty upset if someone dares criticise UKIP.

 

I never specifically called you a UKIPper - it's that line of argument that is regularly used by them, and it's as transparent as f**k.

 

Also, yeah my overt dislike for a party that thinly veils its racism and spouts political populism for the masses and harks on about how anti-establishment (which is absolute nonsense) is absolutely what is wrong with politics. I should just lap up every word Nigel says. Not question him. That would be wrong, right?

[solentstars]

How did we survive before? How are Norway and Switzerland able to be successful still?

Norway has oil plus they and Switzerland contribute to the EU and abide by the rules to have access to the EU market but no say on any of the rules.we would still pay money inif we left the EU.

[pap]

How did we survive before? How are Norway and Switzerland able to be successful still?

Up until the Americans made us get rid of it at Bretton Woods, we had our own supranational entity called the British Empire. Thirty years after that ended, we were going cap in hand to the IMF.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Up until the Americans made us get rid of it at Bretton Woods, we had our own supranational entity called the British Empire. Thirty years after that ended, we were going cap in hand to the IMF.

 

I think it's a bit disingenuous to paint the break up of the empire as solely being down to the States making us give it up.

[pap]

Some interesting bits of media.

 

First of all, arf!

 

 

Next, Stewart Lee wrote an article in the Guardian.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/nov/05/stewart-lee-the-imaginary-liberal-comedy-cabal-will-crush-the-ukips-into-dust

 

Last Thursday, in the regular column he has in the Independent as part of the biased liberal media’s attempt to silence him, Nigel Farage similarly asserted that the Ukips were targeted by a liberal elite of relentless bores and opined: “While I’m used to the ire of the PC-brigade, it must be disconcerting for [Andrew Lawrence] to be embroiled in all of this for speaking his mind.”

 

[pap]

I think it's a bit disingenuous to paint the break up of the empire as solely being down to the States making us give it up.

 

Which bit?

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/14/how-a-soviet-spy-outmaneuvered-john-maynard-keynes-and-ensured-u-s-global-financial-dominance/

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Which bit?

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/14/how-a-soviet-spy-outmaneuvered-john-maynard-keynes-and-ensured-u-s-global-financial-dominance/

 

Ok sure. I'm not getting into of these with you Pap.

[buctootim]

The idea that the British Empire broke up because of events at Bretton Wood is simplistic and wrong. The Empire had been getting looser and less lucrative since the mid 1850s with more countries becoming self governing affiliates. The Balfour Declaration effectively publically announced the Empire's death in 1926.

[pap]

The idea that the British Empire broke up because of events at Bretton Wood is simplistic and wrong. The Empire had been getting looser and less lucrative since the mid 1850s with more countries becoming self governing affiliates. The Balfour Declaration effectively publically announced the Empire's death in 1926.

 

And yet, the Empire was never bigger after the end of hostilities in the First World War. The collective sense of getting jipped by the Old World powers after the war fuelled much of the US isolationism.

 

I really don't dispute that the cohesiveness of the Empire was on the wane. One of the biggest problems in the early 1930s was holding it all together. However, it was Bretton Woods where things came to a head and the future of the Empire (none) was determined. Many American historians point to Bretton Woods as the point at which US dominance really began, which implicitly means the unseating of the incumbent dominant power.

 

That would have been us.

[Sour Mash]

Its also not true. Britain isnt part of the Schengen Agreement, hence why the UK still has border controls and passport checks. The biggest source of immigrants to the UK are China, India, the US, Australia and Poland. Only one of those is in the EU.

Not really, here is a balanced view of recent migration into the UK. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28964323 Edited 6 November, 2014 by Sour Mash

[Sour Mash]

Up until the Americans made us get rid of it at Bretton Woods, we had our own supranational entity called the British Empire. Thirty years after that ended, we were going cap in hand to the IMF.

What does that have to do with my point?

[Sour Mash]

The idea that the British Empire broke up because of events at Bretton Wood is simplistic and wrong. The Empire had been getting looser and less lucrative since the mid 1850s with more countries becoming self governing affiliates. The Balfour Declaration effectively publically announced the Empire's death in 1926.

Yep, that's pretty much how I understood it. US influence was a factor, but there was a whole range of "push" and "pull" causes.

[pap]

What does that have to do with my point?

 

You were asking how we managed before the EU.

 

The answer is:-

 

a) with a supranational protectionist trade empire that we used to run (pre-WW2)

b) badly enough to have the IMF come in during the 1970s

[Lord Duckhunter]

The report produced by UCL, that receive sizeable subsidies from the EU?

 

Missing the point as to why Ukip are popular and relevant anyway.

 

I also read that one of the co authors of the report was one of the people that advised the labour government against transition controls as only 13,000 Poles would come to the UK. He clearly knows his stuff.

 

To me there are only 3 coherent immigration policies. Let nobody in, let everybody in , or let the people in we want and need.

 

I've yet to hear a main stream politician argue for no immigration or no controls, therefore everybody seems to have the same policy. Accept that these racist bar stewards UKIP want their policy to apply to everyone from anywhere equally , whereas those enlightened modern progressive liblabcon establishment want Africans, Asians and Pakistanis treated differently. I saw that buffoon Ken " we need to join the euro" Clarke on the Sunday politics tell Andrew Neil that " clearly you have to have controls, you can't have everyone who wants to just turn up" . He then went on to attack the only party that has the policy to do exactly what we " clearly" needed. Talk about double speak. When it comes to this debate, black is clearly white.

 

What if UKIP had the policy that Aussies, new Zealanders , Canadians and Americans are subject to no controls , yet Pakistanis , Chinese, Japanese and Nigerians are subject to controls . Would such a policy be racist?

[buctootim]

Not really, here is a balanced view of recent migration into the UK. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28964323

 

But that article only deals with % increases in migration compared with last year. It says nothing about totals or where people come from. The majority of immigrants to the UK come from outside of the EU, year after year.

[buctootim]

To me there are only 3 coherent immigration policies. Let nobody in, let everybody in , or let the people in we want and need.

 

Clarke on the Sunday politics tell Andrew Neil that " clearly you have to have controls, you can't have everyone who wants to just turn up" . He then went on to attack the only party that has the policy to do exactly what we " clearly" needed. Talk about double speak. When it comes to this debate, black is clearly white.

 

So if a UKIP government withdrew the rights of EU citizens to come here - what would they do when Spain and France reciprocated and withdrew the right of 1.5 million Brits to remain living there?

[ecuk268]

But that article only deals with % increases in migration compared with last year. It says nothing about totals or where people come from. The majority of immigrants to the UK come from outside of the EU, year after year.

 

In 2012 55% of immigrants came from within the EU.

 

Source: Office of National Statistics.

[Sour Mash]

So if a UKIP government withdrew the rights of EU citizens to come here - what would they do when Spain and France reciprocated and withdrew the right of 1.5 million Brits to remain living there?

Do Spain and France have fast growing political parties that wish to restrict the flow of UK citizens into parts of their countries? If they do and they're successful, fair play to them.

[Sour Mash]

But that article only deals with % increases in migration compared with last year. It says nothing about totals or where people come from. The majority of immigrants to the UK come from outside of the EU, year after year.

Are you sure about that? Year after year?

[pap]

Do Spain and France have fast growing political parties that wish to restrict the flow of UK citizens into parts of their countries? If they do and they're successful, fair play to them.

Spain and France are countries headed in different directions. Marie Le Pen and her National Front party are enjoying a big surge in the polls, enough to have a say in the next French government. Hollande's approval ratings are hovering between 10% and 20%. The Socialists could be finished there.

 

Spain had an indignados movement, meetings in the squares, in which political matters are discussed. Its fastest growing party is Podemos, which has come to a lot of very left wing conclusions, but tends not to view politics though one particular spectrum. Indeed, much of what they do is deconstruct and explain the existing political systems.

 

Political winds are changing across Europe.

[benjii]

So if a UKIP government withdrew the rights of EU citizens to come here - what would they do when Spain and France reciprocated and withdrew the right of 1.5 million Brits to remain living there?

 

That's not reciprocal, is it? You've posited a forced repatriation as being equivalent to a reduction in entry rights.

[Sour Mash]

Why are UKIP not on tonight's Question Time Panel?

[TwoPints]

Why are UKIP not on tonight's Question Time Panel?

Maybe because they're on 9 times out of 10 when they only have one MP. I was pleased to see the Green Party represented last week. First time in ages they've been on and have an MP for considerably longer than UKIP.

 

But don't fret, Nigel and ukip are getting mentioned every few minutes anyway.

[Sour Mash]

Spain and France are countries headed in different directions. Marie Le Pen and her National Front party are enjoying a big surge in the polls, enough to have a say in the next French government. Hollande's approval ratings are hovering between 10% and 20%. The Socialists could be finished there.

 

Spain had an indignados movement, meetings in the squares, in which political matters are discussed. Its fastest growing party is Podemos, which has come to a lot of very left wing conclusions, but tends not to view politics though one particular spectrum. Indeed, much of what they do is deconstruct and explain the existing political systems.

 

Political winds are changing across Europe.

Yes, true, but the point of my particular post was that as far as I'm aware, there is no significant movement in France or Spain to kick out UK nationals there, therefore Tim's point is a bit irrelevant at this point - if the French or Spanish did want to kick them out, good on them, they should have the right to do so in my opinion. Edited 6 November, 2014 by Sour Mash

[Sour Mash]

Maybe because they're on 9 times out of 10 when they only have one MP. I was pleased to see the Green Party represented last week. First time in ages they've been on and have an MP for considerably longer than UKIP.

 

But don't fret, Nigel and ukip are getting mentioned every few minutes anyway.

Fair enough, I don't watch it much anyway, I was under the impression the panel tried to represent the local view to an extent.

[buctootim]

That's not reciprocal, is it? You've posited a forced repatriation as being equivalent to a reduction in entry rights.

 

It could well be. UK citizens currently have the right to live in those countries visa free because of our membership of the club. If we leave the club the arrangement ceases and Brits simply become foreign nationals with no legal status and no right to remain. Who knows what the Governments decide to do then - presumably some sort of cost / benefit analysis of letting them stay, but you can be sure the decisions will be in their national interest, not ours.

Edited 6 November, 2014 by buctootim

[Lord Duckhunter]

So if a UKIP government withdrew the rights of EU citizens to come here - what would they do when Spain and France reciprocated and withdrew the right of 1.5 million Brits to remain living there?

 

This is the laughable political scare story trotted out by the establishment anytime somebody dares to think that the British should decide who we do or don't let in. I was in Cyprus last year and there's loads of Russians living there. How many Americans live in France , how many Africans in Italy . Are you seriously saying that the Spanish will kick the Brits out , but not the other non eu nationals living there . Or are you trying to claim there are no non eu nationals living in France, Spain and Germany. At the end of the day it is up to the Spanish , French ect to decide who they admitt to their own country . If they want to deny British skills, British money and British pensioners the right to live and work in their own country , that's up to them . But I'm sure there's plenty of countries that will welcome us with open arms , whether in or out of the Eussr .

 

Do you think there should be a limit put on the number of people allowed to settle on our small island? I presume most people do. What is the best way to administer this . A skills based system, so that skill gaps are filled by the best candidates or should we pick 26 countries from which anyone can come, regardless of their abilities or need , and let as many as want in. Whilst limiting the rest of the world. Only in the barmy EUSSR can a Greek road digger have priority over a Canadian midwife when it comes to settling in our country.

[TwoPints]

This is the laughable political scare story trotted out by the establishment anytime somebody dares to think that the British should decide who we do or don't let in. I was in Cyprus last year and there's loads of Russians living there. How many Americans live in France , how many Africans in Italy . Are you seriously saying that the Spanish will kick the Brits out , but not the other non eu nationals living there . Or are you trying to claim there are no non eu nationals living in France, Spain and Germany. At the end of the day it is up to the Spanish , French ect to decide who they admitt to their own country . If they want to deny British skills, British money and British pensioners the right to live and work in their own country , that's up to them . But I'm sure there's plenty of countries that will welcome us with open arms , whether in or out of the Eussr .

 

Do you think there should be a limit put on the number of people allowed to settle on our small island? I presume most people do. What is the best way to administer this . A skills based system, so that skill gaps are filled by the best candidates or should we pick 26 countries from which anyone can come, regardless of their abilities or need , and let as many as want in. Whilst limiting the rest of the world. Only in the barmy EUSSR can a Greek road digger have priority over a Canadian midwife when it comes to settling in our country.

Blimey... Talk about scare stories. The constant drivel we hear about how the whole world is coming to settle on our little island and how they're all sponging off the state ... What's that if not a scare story?

[Batman]

Blimey... Talk about scare stories. The constant drivel we hear about how the whole world is coming to settle on our little island and how they're all sponging off the state ... What's that if not a scare story?

 

Where has he said anyone is sponging off the state?

[trousers]

Blimey... Talk about scare stories. The constant drivel we hear about how the whole world is coming to settle on our little island and how they're all sponging off the state ... What's that if not a scare story?

To the nearest million, how many people do you think a country the size of the UK can comfortably sustain? Genuine question.

 

Whatever the answer, our immigration policy should be geared around keeping below that number.

[bridge too far]

Why are UKIP not on tonight's Question Time Panel?

 

According to one FB (anti Tory) page, the audience was stuffed full of UKIP candidates. I didn't see the programme so I don't know if there's any truth in that.

[TwoPints]

Where has he said anyone is sponging off the state?

Well if the assumption is that they're all contributing where is the problem? The implication is that 'immigration' is a strain on our resources and there have been many discussions on here about the net cost to the UK so if you look back over the thread, there will be plenty.

[Batman]

Well if the assumption is that they're all contributing where is the problem? The implication is that 'immigration' is a strain on our resources and there have been many discussions on here about the net cost to the UK so if you look back over the thread, there will be plenty.

 

The problem is housing, schools, infrastructure, the ability to control your own country

[Sour Mash]

Well if the assumption is that they're all contributing where is the problem? The implication is that 'immigration' is a strain on our resources and there have been many discussions on here about the net cost to the UK so if you look back over the thread, there will be plenty.

If you do not understand the issue and the problem, how can you comment on it?

[TwoPints]

If you do not understand the issue and the problem, how can you comment on it?

To some people it's perceived to be an issue and a problem to others not so much when weighing up the pros and cons rather than just concentrating on the cons.

[saintbletch]

This is the laughable political scare story trotted out by the establishment anytime somebody dares to think that the British should decide who we do or don't let in. I was in Cyprus last year and there's loads of Russians living there. How many Americans live in France , how many Africans in Italy . Are you seriously saying that the Spanish will kick the Brits out , but not the other non eu nationals living there . Or are you trying to claim there are no non eu nationals living in France, Spain and Germany. At the end of the day it is up to the Spanish , French ect to decide who they admitt to their own country . If they want to deny British skills, British money and British pensioners the right to live and work in their own country , that's up to them . But I'm sure there's plenty of countries that will welcome us with open arms , whether in or out of the Eussr .

 

Do you think there should be a limit put on the number of people allowed to settle on our small island? I presume most people do. What is the best way to administer this . A skills based system, so that skill gaps are filled by the best candidates or should we pick 26 countries from which anyone can come, regardless of their abilities or need , and let as many as want in. Whilst limiting the rest of the world. Only in the barmy EUSSR can a Greek road digger have priority over a Canadian midwife when it comes to settling in our country.

 

I agree that we're unlikely to see mass ejections - either way, but I do think there will be impacts.

 

One such impact of us leaving the EU, would probably be related to what happens to the local health care cover for those 1M+ expats in Spain.

 

I don't know if domiciled ex-pats rely on that (e111 card?) that we holiday-making Brits do. But I would imagine that we might see some of those ex-pats over retirement age choosing to return for health reasons.

 

I could also imagine that their status might change over time too, so that instead of being seen as fellow European citizens that contribute economically, they might start to be blamed for the undoubted negative impact that the UK leaving the EU would have.

 

How beautifully ironic would that be? The expat Brit that loves Spain and the Spanish people, being demonised as an outsider and blamed for the fresh economic turmoil that Spain would be experiencing due to the UK's exit from the EU.

 

I could see groups of Spanish youths, well youths at first, but it would surely quickly spread to the oldest Spaniards and then to the majority, each finding it difficult to reconcile the fact that Spain's economy has now gone from bad to worse due to these strangers that live amongst them.

 

Expats Brits, who had spent years integrating themselves into Spanish life and culture, and who had embraced the Spanish people and land, and who had spent their pensions in Spanish shops and paid their Spanish taxes, would slowly find themselves experiencing a different treatment.

 

People who once simply ignored them when their economy was OK, were now starting to blame them for this fresh downturn.

 

Political parties in Spain would start to recognise that if they wanted power, they would need to speak for the average Miguel in the street, and represent his concerns about the 1M outsiders that live amongst them and surely sponge off their already struggling economy.

 

Commentators would rationalise that Spain can only sustain a certain number of people, and that if they had less people living there, they surely would each enjoy a better standard of life.

 

And over time, the average Maria in the street would start to focus her attention away from their own hardships, and by attempting to take control of their otherwise poor life, they would join the movement to blame the Brits.

 

A vision that couldn't happen? Perhaps.

 

Or is this what is happening right here, right now?

 

Personally I just can't relate to this feeling of us being overrun with immigrants. I'm not judging you because your thoughts are different, it's just that the way I live my life, and living where I do, it has zero day-to-day impact on me.

 

I'm sure there must be macroeconomic impacts that affect me, but they are simply too abstract for me to feel on a daily basis. What's more I also assume that because I don't feel this on a daily basis, there must be some sort of problem-reducing net effect when taking the positives and the negatives together.

 

Either way, it just isn't real enough for me on a day-to-day basis to make me passionate or angry enough to campaign to change things.

 

The people I blame for the difficulties we find ourselves in are those that ran the financial institutions badly, and those that let them do this. And even then, I recognise that finance at that level is so complex and 'unreal', that few could really have predicted the impact it would have. And fewer still would have been brave enough to turn off the gravy-tap and legislate to 'force' their financial services sector to relocate to less regulated climes.

 

In short, we are where we are due to immensely complex financial factors caused by a butterfly wing flapping somewhere in New York. It sucks. But that's the cause.

 

I do recognise that if I lived in an area where the immigrant population was particularly large, and that perhaps because if this impacted my ability to find work, or that my family was affected in some way, then I might reach a different conclusion.

 

I'd like to think that I would still try to see individuals impacting me in individual circumstances. I'd like to think that, but it's very easy for me to say that from the outside. So as I say, I won't judge anyone who reaches a different conclusion who has been directly impacted.

 

The concern I have, is that I believe that many who are targeting immigration have not been directly impacted in the way I describe. At the same time, I feel that all of them have been impacted by the stupid politicians and the greedy bankers.

 

I fear that those who are lining up to make their UKIP mark are simply using immigration to rationalise their poor quality of life in these straitened times.

 

It's human nature to want to try to take back control when we've been shafted by stupid politicians and greedy bankers. The feeling of helplessness is not one that human condition can live with for very long without losing the balance of one's mind, or taking positive steps to grab back control and to be helpless no longer.

 

Being told that we have decades of austerity ahead of us isn't an easy pill to swallow. So for many, finding a target for our anger and frustration has meant focussing on outsiders - those that are not like 'us'. They surely must be to blame, and if they're not, taking positive control and focussing our anger and energy on them at least makes us feel better.

 

Can I ask you, and others that feel there is an issue over immigration, whether you are or have been directly impacted by it?

 

I'm really not looking to score points, not looking to judge you, and I'd understand if you're not comfortable sharing your personal situation.

 

But I'm interested to see why you (each) have formed those views. And I'm asking about direct impacts here. Or perhaps you'll be happy enough to admit that you are simply reaching an intellectual conclusion that all or part of the problems we find ourselves with must surely have been caused by immigration?

[bridge too far]

What a brilliant post Saint Bletch! Kudos!

[buctootim]

To the nearest million, how many people do you think a country the size of the UK can comfortably sustain? Genuine question.

 

Whatever the answer, our immigration policy should be geared around keeping below that number.

 

About 35 million imo. We missed that boat long ago. Reality is the world has changed. every major country in the world is seeing large population shifts driven by global trade and multinational employers. Its too late to pull the drawbridge up now.

[Minty]

Excellent post bletch.

 

And personally I have no issue with immigration and I DO live in an area where there are lots of immigrants living and working.

[pap]

About 35 million imo. We missed that boat long ago. Reality is the world has changed. every major country in the world is seeing large population shifts driven by global trade and multinational employers. Its too late to pull the drawbridge up now.

 

What a depressing post. First off, it seems to confirm the myth that we've no space. Second, it humbly accepts that corporations and multinationals are a point of truth that must be observed.

 

Thank f**k it's the young that renew the country.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

Can I ask you, and others that feel there is an issue over immigration, whether you are or have been directly impacted by it?

 

I'm really not looking to score points, not looking to judge you, and I'd understand if you're not comfortable sharing your personal situation.

 

But I'm interested to see why you (each) have formed those views. And I'm asking about direct impacts here. Or perhaps you'll be happy enough to admit that you are simply reaching an intellectual conclusion that all or part of the problems we find ourselves with must surely have been caused by immigration?

 

If you look back through my posts, I've never been opposed to immigration.

 

What I am opposed to is the misrepresentation of UKIP's position and the distortion of their position. There is a cigarette paper between the Establishments position on non EU immigration and UKIP's on immigration. Just because UKIP want to treat French, German and Spanish people the same as Africans , whereas the liblabcon want to treat them differently, they're the "racists"?

Edited 7 November, 2014 by Lord Duckhunter

[saintbletch]

If you look back through my posts, I've never been opposed to immigration.

 

What I am opposed to is the misrepresentation of UKIP's position and the distortion of their position. There is a cigarette paper between the Establishments position on non EU immigration and UKIP's on immigration. Just because UKIP want to treat French, German and Spanish people the same as Africans , whereas the liblabcon want to treat them differently, they're the "racists".

 

Yep, I've certainly never seen you as someone that is rabidly suggesting people should be forced to leave the country, I hope my post didn't suggest that you were, but I'm sure I remember you suggesting that we should instigate tighter immigration controls.

 

I'm simply interested in whether your personal situation and experience has led you to that conclusion, or is this an intellectual conclusion.

 

My position is that I can intellectually understand the argument that we can't just have an open border, that makes a lot of sense. But right now, I have simply not been touched by our current, or past immigration policies to the point where they form part of my political thinking.

 

I just don't consider the origin of the people I meet or deal with in life or business, as anyway important - other than that I might have to observe certain cultural formalities.

 

Again, you've no reason to respond to me interrogating you in this way, but I am genuinely interested. Especially as you've previously shown yourself as someone who is happy to discuss and defend your views on UKIP.

 

I'm not trying to trap you, or show you the error of your logic. And at the end of our discussion I suspect we'll both agree that we've simply arrived at different conclusions from observing the same facts.

 

I am suggesting however that where you might see a subtle and important fag-paper's distinction between UKIP's position and that of the other parties, some UKIP voters will be attracted to the anti-immigration policy halo that the UKIP position might one day foretell.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

If you look back through my posts, I've never been opposed to immigration.

 

What I am opposed to is the misrepresentation of UKIP's position and the distortion of their position. There is a cigarette paper between the Establishments position on non EU immigration and UKIP's on immigration. Just because UKIP want to treat French, German and Spanish people the same as Africans , whereas the liblabcon want to treat them differently, they're the "racists"?

 

The problem with this argument is it's false equivalence.

 

African countries, US, Australia etc do not pay into the EU - and therefore do not get back from the EU (whether or not we do as well as we put in is a separate, but valid discussion). The reason people often (not saying you, or all people) oppose immigration is that they feel that immigrants are benefitting from systems they do not or have not paid into.

 

Members of EU do pay into the EU and therefore contribute. So you cannot compare Non-EU and EU migrants as such. I don't really see the difference between someone moving from a less affluent part of the UK to somewhere more affluent - look at these people from Middlesborough coming down here and take all the jobs away from the Londoners. At what point do you stop this ridiculous argument? It is not a direct comparison to say that the treatment of Non EU and EU migrants is that straightforward or tantamount to racism. As I've said before it is a thinly veiled attempt to shift the blame away from accusations that UKIP are racist (or at least pander to racist people or ideologies).

 

Also, yes Bletch. That is one of my major beefs (yeah, I have plenty of them) with UKIP. It is a bunch of people from very good backgrounds wanting people to punch down and those that can do little to fight back (basically those that want to work for a better life) instead of punching up and those like Farage and his buddies. The idea that UKIP are any different to the establishment is just utter crap.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Bletch, just to add my opinion on immigration to my earlier answer to you.

 

The ills of the country are not caused by immigration, particularly here in Poole. However I do not know what it's like for people in other areas. What is certainly a fact is that we have hundreds of thousands of young people out of work, and hundreds of thousands of low skilled immigrants are working here. Anybody who blames immigrants is ignorant and is also guilty of letting the incompetent pygmies in the establishment escape the blame for the mismanagement of the country. Most immigrants who have worked for me, or go to school with my nippers (and there are a few even here) , are hard working, polite, friendly and a credit to their country of birth.

 

I want to leave the EUSSR, but have nothing against Europeans, in fact I wish that some British were more like them, in terms of behaviour and family values . In particular the Germans 'Greeks and Poles ( I draw the line at the French lol) that I have met have all been upstanding citizens with decent values. I realise that's just a bit of a generalisation and there's good and bad in every nation, but I'm just saying that I'm no little Englander who hates foreigners.

 

I would like a points based system where people with the skills we need are allowed to work and settle in this country , there also must be scope for humanitarian immigration as we did with Amin's Ugandan's and the boat people. I would not judge people by where they come from but by the content of their ability. I would like the numbers set by the elected UK Parliament answerable to the British people. At the moment the EUSSR want any citizen of the Super state to be able to move and work freely in England , like Scots and Welsh have always done. I do not want this situation to continue.

 

In terms of benefits, once you allow people to come and stay in your country and work ( in a points based system , they're doing the jobs we need) , they should be treated as any other citizen. The safety net of the NHS and benefit system should be available to them. However , until you control immigration and only allow people in you want, this is never going to happen and immigrants will continue to be demonised and resented.As an aside the Liblabcon politicans are incapable of talking about EU immigration without banging on about "clamping down " on benefits. They are demonising immigrants every bit as much as any UKIP politician. Because they want to be seen to be in control, when in reality they never can be (whilst we remain a member) they concentrate on the one area they maybe able to excerise some control (welfare) and push that at every opportunity. It just further adds to the very thing they claim UKIP do, which is attack the foreigner. It's very unhealthy. Welfare is not the issue, only a tiny % of EU immigrants claim welfare, but just watch and see, every single time a Liblabcon figure is asked about immigration they'll bring it up.

[View From The Top]

I love the fact that my kids, as well as me when they've left home, are free to live and work anywhere in the EU with no hassles.

 

Long may that continue.

[buctootim]

What a depressing post. First off, it seems to confirm the myth that we've no space. Second, it humbly accepts that corporations and multinationals are a point of truth that must be observed.

 

Thank f**k it's the young that renew the country.

 

Ive got friends who are principled greenies who are against globalisation. They wont fly, have no Sky satellite, drive only occasionally, eat local food and volunteer in their community. In short they live by their principles.

 

Then there are people like you and your idol Brand. You bash out your anti corporate big business stuff from your Eastern European PC assembled from Chinese components, drive your BMW car (revenues $78bn, 105,000 employees), watch your Korean big screen tv and playstation ($75bn 140,000 employees) all paid with money earned from writing code for Microsoft software (revenue $86bn) for companies in the US who you visit with flights on Boeing ($86bn 168,000 employees). Lets not forget how you love the imported food from German supermarket Aldi. How come you don't support small local manufacturers?

 

I wouldnt fancy being you when comrade Brand brings in his maximum size for companies - £1m pa turnover he said. Flying across the Atlantic on a plane made by a £1m pa company could be hairy.

Edited 7 November, 2014 by buctootim

[saintbletch]

Bletch, just to add my opinion on immigration to my earlier answer to you.

 

The ills of the country are not caused by immigration, particularly here in Poole. However I do not know what it's like for people in other areas. What is certainly a fact is that we have hundreds of thousands of young people out of work, and hundreds of thousands of low skilled immigrants are working here. Anybody who blames immigrants is ignorant and is also guilty of letting the incompetent pygmies in the establishment escape the blame for the mismanagement of the country. Most immigrants who have worked for me, or go to school with my nippers (and there are a few even here) , are hard working, polite, friendly and a credit to their country of birth.

 

I want to leave the EUSSR, but have nothing against Europeans, in fact I wish that some British were more like them, in terms of behaviour and family values . In particular the Germans 'Greeks and Poles ( I draw the line at the French lol) that I have met have all been upstanding citizens with decent values. I realise that's just a bit of a generalisation and there's good and bad in every nation, but I'm just saying that I'm no little Englander who hates foreigners.

 

I would like a points based system where people with the skills we need are allowed to work and settle in this country , there also must be scope for humanitarian immigration as we did with Amin's Ugandan's and the boat people. I would not judge people by where they come from but by the content of their ability. I would like the numbers set by the elected UK Parliament answerable to the British people. At the moment the EUSSR want any citizen of the Super state to be able to move and work freely in England , like Scots and Welsh have always done. I do not want this situation to continue.

 

In terms of benefits, once you allow people to come and stay in your country and work ( in a points based system , they're doing the jobs we need) , they should be treated as any other citizen. The safety net of the NHS and benefit system should be available to them. However , until you control immigration and only allow people in you want, this is never going to happen and immigrants will continue to be demonised and resented.As an aside the Liblabcon politicans are incapable of talking about EU immigration without banging on about "clamping down " on benefits. They are demonising immigrants every bit as much as any UKIP politician. Because they want to be seen to be in control, when in reality they never can be (whilst we remain a member) they concentrate on the one area they maybe able to excerise some control (welfare) and push that at every opportunity. It just further adds to the very thing they claim UKIP do, which is attack the foreigner. It's very unhealthy. Welfare is not the issue, only a tiny % of EU immigrants claim welfare, but just watch and see, every single time a Liblabcon figure is asked about immigration they'll bring it up.

 

I'd find it difficult to find fault in what you say here. Thanks for taking the time to articulate it so clearly.

 

You mentioned earlier that you are concerned that UKIP's position is being misrepresented. My concern is that UKIP's position is not yet fixed. It is a young party that has not yet been tested by power. I fear that unlike your position above, other UKIP voters will see the UKIP publicly stated position as a starting point for where they want the party to go in future.

 

I also believe that UKIP's strategists (Farage amongst them), recognise this phenomenon, and will do what they can to court anti-immigration votes in exchange for power. That's a dangerous game.

 

Your position reminds me a little of how I felt when I helped to elect Blair. I thought we'd found our Kennedy. I thought I knew what I was going to get. But I was wrong.

 

I think this might be bad for you too. UKIP may not end up being the party you would like it to be.