More UKIP bother

[TwoPints]

Just spotted your post although I hope my answers in my previous post satisfy your interest in my thoughts on this matter.

 

 

But to answer your specific posts:

 

You do realise the net difference in those coming to the UK from the EU versus those leaving the UK to work in the EU? What great opportunities do you now have that you didn't previously prior to the movement of free labour across borders?

 

Just Google 'English Jobs in Europe'. There are shed loads. I know a number of people that have done very well out of working in the EU for a period of time. I also have a friend (surprising I know) who is encouraging his two children to go to university in the EU as they're as good as, if not better than ours and they're a damn sight cheaper. Just a couple of personal examples as you asked.

 

You think it clearly is "genuinely economically and politically practical to have a one size fits all system incorporating 27 different markets when some of those markets share the same currency and others do not."? Not up for debate or discussion? No cause for concern? What would be the economic impact as a result of us withdrawing?

 

I think I've answered this question already but to reiterate, I seem to recall listing all the political and economic benefits of being in the EU previously (although I suspect you disagreed with them all) and whilst I'm not saying everything is hunky dorey, I believe the benefits of being in far outweigh the implications of leaving.

 

You haven't answered the fair question - Do you think the Democratic process has improved as a result of being in the EU?

 

I'm not sure of what you mean by that. If you mean the consequences of that process then I've answered that above, if you mean the way in which Euro MP's are elected, then I have issues with all the democratic processes that we're bound by. No doubt a number of people on here will argue that the UK process is unfair and would prefer proportional representation. I'm not really too hung up on the process it's more the consequences that I'm interested in and my thoughts on that are above.

 

1) Very few jobs would be lost. If anything, the job market would improve greatly for many UK residents without their wages being under-cut by large numbers of EU migrants.

 

Well I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude but that is nonsense. Are we now planning on throwing out the EU residents that are already here now then? Basic economics in our global economy says that if one country's wages go up, their costs go up, exports go down, imports go up (the imports being manufacturered by the EU labour that we're no longer employing and enjoying the taxes from).

 

2) Did we suffer from rampant inflation prior to the opening up of the labour market?

 

As above - it's basic economics.

 

3) I couldn't care less if tobacco companies can advertise more or if smoking is allowed back in pubs.

 

Why doesn't that surprise me? Thought about the consequences and who's going to pay for them? I don't suppose Nigel has.

[moonraker]

Exactly. Regardless of one's views on this subject, Moonraker's perception of Bath was at odds with reality.

Not at all In my White Middle Class street of 30 hoses 5 are occupied by EU migrants, its irrelevant that the 'ethnic mix' is driven by the Universities their still people, their still of various ethenticities and they still live in Bath. Bath Saint is very selective in his examples of areas within Bath, my whole point is that the migrants in Bath have not formed ghettos, as to pushing out the local working class folk to Twerton they have been their for at least 100 years together with Oldfield Park (despite the students),Southdown Odd Down and Weston. Like any City Bath has a few unsavoury areas Fox Hill fits the bill as does Whiteway and parts of Southdown.

[Bath Saint]

Not at all In my White Middle Class street of 30 hoses 5 are occupied by EU migrants, its irrelevant that the 'ethnic mix' is driven by the Universities their still people, their still of various ethenticities and they still live in Bath. Bath Saint is very selective in his examples of areas within Bath, my whole point is that the migrants in Bath have not formed ghettos, as to pushing out the local working class folk to Twerton they have been their for at least 100 years together with Oldfield Park (despite the students),Southdown Odd Down and Weston. Like any City Bath has a few unsavoury areas Fox Hill fits the bill as does Whiteway and parts of Southdown.

 

I'm not saying the migrants (mostly eastern Europeans in my experience) have pushed the working class folk out. Quite the contrary; it is the white, middle class (a lot from London) who have forced up house prices and pushed the working class out. As for the fact that it is the universities that have brought in the majority of migrants well, I think this is very relevant. Most of these students are postgraduates either doing a masters qualification or a PhD. They bring huge amounts of money into the national and local economy, stick around for a year (3 at most) then head back to their country of origin.

 

Curiously, BANES retains quite a lot of council housing (Laura Place, for example, is nearly half council housing you might be surprised to learn) and I suspect part of the reason for this is to try to keep at least some working class people in the centre of the city.

[trousers]

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/oct/22/ukips-polarising-effect-support-for-staying-in-the-eu-hits-23-year-high

 

[buctootim]

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/oct/22/ukips-polarising-effect-support-for-staying-in-the-eu-hits-23-year-high

 

 

Interesting. Its counter-intuitive to me that support for 'get out' has dropped so much over the past two years.

[pap]

Interesting. Its counter-intuitive to me that support for 'get out' has dropped so much over the past two years.

 

Me too. How exactly does that graph reconcile itself with UKIP's rise in popularity?

[Minty]

UKIP's rise in popularity is more likely to be those who've *always* been of the opinion to 'get out', but felt that their previous party of choice has not given them sufficient voice to air that opinion.

 

However, UKIP's emergence has polarised the debate somewhat, and those previously in the centre ground have now consciously moved towards 'stay in' as a result. The general increase in awareness about the European issue could well have led to many people who previously weren't sure, or ambivalent about it, to now have looked into it further and decided, perhaps partly due to UKIP, that being in Europe is a good thing.

[Halo Stickman]

Me too. How exactly does that graph reconcile itself with UKIP's rise in popularity?

 

Perhaps it shows that the main reason people are attracted to UKIP is because they are perceived as the party most likely to cap immigration …or bring back smoking in pubs, or do away with wind farms?

[pap]

UKIP's rise in popularity is more likely to be those who've *always* been of the opinion to 'get out', but felt that their previous party of choice has not given them sufficient voice to air that opinion.

 

However, UKIP's emergence has polarised the debate somewhat, and those previously in the centre ground have now consciously moved towards 'stay in' as a result. The general increase in awareness about the European issue could well have led to many people who previously weren't sure, or ambivalent about it, to now have looked into it further and decided, perhaps partly due to UKIP, that being in Europe is a good thing.

 

Having seen many of my own immigrant family switch from Labour to UKIP, I can't help feeling whether the public is indifferent to the gaffes, though. As I said before, my objections to the EU lie mostly in the dangers of ceding sovereignty to a foreign power. Most will be thinking of immigration, and probably getting it wrong, but that'll be their concern.

 

Is there a danger that UKIP will be seen as panacea to all of Britain's perceived ills?

[pap]

Perhaps it shows that the main reason people are attracted to UKIP is because they are perceived as the party most likely to cap immigration …or bring back smoking in pubs, or do away with wind farms?

 

Banning smoking in pubs was one of Labour's worst decisions.

 

Seemed to be a good idea at the time, but having seen so many pubs close down, I feel Britain has lost something unique - the community boozer, where the only qualification for entry was being in the community and having a pint.

 

The few pubs that are left in communities now have all the rats that left the other sinking ships. The rest are all places to get hammered, as opposed to somewhere you could go for a quiet drink and a chat with your neighbours.

[Halo Stickman]

Banning smoking in pubs was one of Labour's worst decisions.

 

Seemed to be a good idea at the time, but having seen so many pubs close down, I feel Britain has lost something unique - the community boozer, where the only qualification for entry was being in the community and having a pint.

 

The few pubs that are left in communities now have all the rats that left the other sinking ships. The rest are all places to get hammered, as opposed to somewhere you could go for a quiet drink and a chat with your neighbours.

 

Agree pap, the smoking ban was a huge factor driving the closure of many community boozers – the loss of which, like you say, has been a great shame – although I doubt that UKIP's proposal to lift the ban plays much of a role in attracting voters.

[trousers]

I go to the pub more often since the smoking ban. Maybe I'm abnormal.

[Minty]

I go to the pub more often since the smoking ban. Maybe I'm abnormal.

 

Same. And there are some nice community pubs round my way. Closures were more to do with finances than smoking IMO, and many (not all) of those which closed were the worst pubs in an area, with more transient customers... the ones with good community backing tended to survive.

[View From The Top]

Just spotted your post although I hope my answers in my previous post satisfy your interest in my thoughts on this matter.

 

 

But to answer your specific posts:

 

 

 

Just Google 'English Jobs in Europe'. There are shed loads. I know a number of people that have done very well out of working in the EU for a period of time. I also have a friend (surprising I know) who is encouraging his two children to go to university in the EU as they're as good as, if not better than ours and they're a damn sight cheaper. Just a couple of personal examples as you asked.

 

I'm encouraging mine to go to uni in Holland for the reasons you've stated plus some others.

 

Nipper wants to go to Soton though so he can have a ST again.

[pap]

I go to the pub more often since the smoking ban. Maybe I'm abnormal.

 

Same. And there are some nice community pubs round my way. Closures were more to do with finances than smoking IMO, and many (not all) of those which closed were the worst pubs in an area, with more transient customers... the ones with good community backing tended to survive.

 

Wasn't as lucky as you guys.

 

Used to drink in Edge Lane in the early 2000s. Quite possible to go on a six pub crawl within a mile, with all the pubs having their regular characters. I know it sounds crazy, but I can honestly say that going to those boozers helped to establish me in that community. Got to know loads of people; those relationships were cemented when the kids started going to school, etc.

 

The pubs are nearly all gone. Some have become other things; most were just flat out demolished, including this building.

 

 

Blooming shame. Don't go out drinking in locals anymore.

 

http://www.merseypub.com/guide/pu29.htm

[View From The Top]

Plenty of pubs have closed in Stafford but they were of the "shiit pub" category. All the decent pubs remain with a few new real ale pubs opening and they do a roaring trade.

[pap]

Plenty of pubs have closed in Stafford but they were of the "shiit pub" category. All the decent pubs remain with a few new real ale pubs opening and they do a roaring trade.

 

We've moved since, so have more options around us. There's a pub right next door to us, but I have seen too many tracksuited individuals kicking around outside it to be particularly keen. Plus it was in Ross Kemp on Gangs.

 

There are a few boozers down the village which have been busy ever since I can remember. One of them has a sign on the door saying "tracksuits, sportswear and trainers are strictly forbidden". Class.

[moonraker]

I'm not saying the migrants (mostly eastern Europeans in my experience) have pushed the working class folk out. Quite the contrary; it is the white, middle class (a lot from London) who have forced up house prices and pushed the working class out. As for the fact that it is the universities that have brought in the majority of migrants well, I think this is very relevant. Most of these students are postgraduates either doing a masters qualification or a PhD. They bring huge amounts of money into the national and local economy, stick around for a year (3 at most) then head back to their country of origin.

 

Curiously, BANES retains quite a lot of council housing (Laura Place, for example, is nearly half council housing you might be surprised to learn) and I suspect part of the reason for this is to try to keep at least some working class people in the centre of the city.

 

Not surprised about the council housing, my wife used to be a housing officer for BANES we have a friend who has council flat in the Circus. The reason the Council (CURO) have these properties is that they were going for a song in 50's and 60's when none of the well off wanted to live in period properties. Oh and none of the migrants in my street are Eastern European, Swedish, Italian, French (x2) and Greek. There has been a large Italian community in Bath for long time, the Italian government even finance an Italian teacher at St Gregory's RC School (or at least used to).

[buctootim]

Obviously there are still a lot of good pubs around, but they've mostly become posher and more civilised. The spit and sawdust boozers have all but disappeared.

 

My local when I lived in Derby for a while was no bigger than an average four bed house but managed to cram in four separate bars - the smoke, the snug, public and lounge each with its own distinct customers and 'feel' to it.

Edited 23 October, 2014 by buctootim

[Halo Stickman]

One of them has a sign on the door saying "tracksuits, sportswear and trainers are strictly forbidden". Class.

 

I’m guessing that wasn’t the SWF’s favourite rendezvous pub, the Fulwood?

[CB Fry]

Obviously there are still a lot of good pubs around, but they've mostly become posher and more civilised. The spit and sawdust boozers have all but disappeared.

 

My local when I lived in Derby for a while was no bigger than an average four bed house but managed to cram in four separate bars - the smoke, the snug, public and lounge each with its own distinct customers and 'feel' to it.

What Pub is that?

[buctootim]

What Pub is that?

 

It was called the Rosehill Tavern, but it was back in the 80s. I did google but seems to be no more.

[CB Fry]

It was called the Rosehill Tavern, but it was back in the 80s. I did google but seems to be no more.

Ah, okay. Thay pre-dates me.

 

Derby these days is a veritable hot-bed of lovely little pubs and local breweries. Anyone who likes a decent ale should be supporting the efforts of honorary Dutchman Steve McClaren on getting the Rams promoted.

[solentstars]

I go to the pub more often since the smoking ban. Maybe I'm abnormal.

same here,pubs were shutting down anyway and there were more pubs pre-war then there is now ,the smokeing ban does not stop smokers going outside for a fag they normally have facilities provided for them.patio heaters etc.

[Patrick Bateman]

I go to the pub more often since the smoking ban. Maybe I'm abnormal.

 

Likewise - we have some excellent pubs round us in the north of Hampshire and Surrey. A great selection of pubs with good ales and a good selection of pubs with great food - all nice to sit in and all hard to get into, especially the more foodie ones.

[Golden Balls]

same here,pubs were shutting down anyway and there were more pubs pre-war then there is now ,the smokeing ban does not stop smokers going outside

 

Yep. People see this stats about 'X amount of pubs closing per week' but don't realise that it was happening anyway. They also don't realise that new pubs open too. And old pubs sometimes reopen. That never gets reported.

A trend has been more remote pubs closing and more central venues opening. Probably down to drink driving being taken far more seriously combined with people having to pick and choose their evenings out due to finances, leading them to choose an evening in more central locations.

 

There are actually more licensed premises now than ever before. This is mainly down to the explosion of restaurants in the UK though.

 

Good pubs will always survive.

[Whitey Grandad]

And cheap supermarket lager.

[Sour Mash]

:lol: It sums the posters up on here, "oooh, it wasn't one of the nicer pubs that closed" Such an out of touch middle class turn out on. Just to check, were you able to get a nice brunch after the smoking ban?

 

Was the chap on here earlier about Bath genuinely serious or a wind up?

[moonraker]

:lol: It sums the posters up on here, "oooh, it wasn't one of the nicer pubs that closed" Such an out of touch middle class turn out on. Just to check, were you able to get a nice brunch after the smoking ban?

 

Was the chap on here earlier about Bath genuinely serious or a wind up?

 

Bit of both, Bath is not a good example in terms of other cities experience with migrants, my daughter used to live in Peterborough so I have some experience of the problem!!! But Bath is an example that migrants can 'integrate' without the issues UKIP ride on the back off. You seem to have a problem with something you call the 'White Middle Class' what is this, if as you seem to have deduced I belong and by association other residents in my street are likely to belong then thats fine as its a great place to live and there are no visible UKIP supporters. The problem is we are not all white we have a wide range of jobs, Lorry Driver, Civil Servants, Painters and Decorators, Engineers, a Small Shop Keeper, Retired, Builders, oh and those bastions of the middle class Teachers, a Doctor, a Solicitor and an Architect. Is there a whiff of envy or is just good old fashioned stereotyping in your assertions.

Edited 24 October, 2014 by moonraker

[trousers]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11184044/EU-makes-Britain-pay-for-recovery.html

 

David Cameron is fighting to stop Britain being forced to pay an extra £1.7billion to the European Union due to the success of the British economy.

 

The Prime Minister was ambushed with a demand from the European Commission for the extra cash because Britain’s economy has performed better than other economies in Europe since 1995.

 

The bill is due on 1 December and Mr Cameron is particularly enraged because Brussels accountants are also preparing to give France back £790million as its economy performed less well than Britain’s.

Edited 24 October, 2014 by trousers

[View From The Top]

:lol: It sums the posters up on here, "oooh, it wasn't one of the nicer pubs that closed" Such an out of touch middle class turn out on. Just to check, were you able to get a nice brunch after the smoking ban?

 

Was the chap on here earlier about Bath genuinely serious or a wind up?

 

And? The shiit pubs that closed were because they were shiit, not working class, middle class or any other class, just shiit.

 

Around here they have been the pubs that serve middle class estates but didn't cater for families, the massive places like the photo Pap posted or the more "local" pubs in and around the town centre.

 

Still plenty of traditional pubs with separate lounge\public bars and I drink in one. The best thing though as been the rise of the real ale pubs.

[View From The Top]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11184044/EU-makes-Britain-pay-for-recovery.html

 

Even as definite pro-European that it utterly and totally bang out of order.

[whelk]

Even as definite pro-European that it utterly and totally bang out of order.

 

What you think it unfair we taxpayers pay for improvements to Latvian transport systems? UKIP must be loving the timing of this story

[Snopper]

Are these the same `Brussels accountants` whose `accounts` have not been signed off at audit for each of the past 19 years?

[Whitey Grandad]

I don't see why we need to contribute more for the benefit of other Europeans. Most of them are living over here already

[saintbletch]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11184044/EU-makes-Britain-pay-for-recovery.html

 

That story will definitely add to the background anti-EU sentiment, but I find it difficult to believe the narrative in the Telegraph.

 

If these sort of surcharge mechanisms exist, then the UK will have been well aware of what was likely to happen for some time. That doesn't change the rights or wrongs of the facts, but it does smell of news management to me.

 

I'd expect Cameron to use this as a stage to showboat his anti-EU credentials on, and if I'm right then he'll refuse to pay it, and perhaps the EU will miraculously back down. A bone thrown to Cameron to help him with his issues at home?

 

If I'm wrong, then UKIP will get a hell of a bounce on this ahead of the by-election.

[CB Saint]

Are they trying to make us quit? At least we know what they see our role in the EU is now.

 

What bugs me about this is that we have made some pretty tough decisions re the economy and got on with trying to sort out our mess, and because our economy is beginning to get going, we have to chip in more to prop up the likes of France who have sat on their hands.

 

Sounds to me like a back door eurozone bailout

[CB Saint]

That story will definitely add to the background anti-EU sentiment, but I find it difficult to believe the narrative in the Telegraph.

 

If these sort of surcharge mechanisms exist, then the UK will have been well aware of what was likely to happen for some time. That doesn't change the rights or wrongs of the facts, but it does smell of news management to me.

 

I'd expect Cameron to use this as a stage to showboat his anti-EU credentials on, and if I'm right then he'll refuse to pay it, and perhaps the EU will miraculously back down. A bone thrown to Cameron to help him with his issues at home?

 

If I'm wrong, then UKIP will get a hell of a bounce on this ahead of the by-election.

 

Good theory that. The EU really cannot afford (Literally by the sound of it) UKIP gaining the balance of power in the UK -

[saintbletch]

Can I ask those who are UKIP-curious, and who could conceive of voting UKIP at the next general election, what are you looking to achieve?

 

A message to the Tories, a message to Labour, a UKIP government, UKIP forming the minority part of a coalition, etc?

 

Or is this just something you feel you have to do for ideological reasons?

 

I'm intrigued as to how the Tory line of vote for Nigel, wake up with Ed will play.

[saintbletch]

Are they trying to make us quit? At least we know what they see our role in the EU is now.

 

What bugs me about this is that we have made some pretty tough decisions re the economy and got on with trying to sort out our mess, and because our economy is beginning to get going, we have to chip in more to prop up the likes of France who have sat on their hands.

 

Sounds to me like a back door eurozone bailout

 

It certainly seems unfair, but don't read into this move that this is based on recent economic improvements.

 

My understanding is that this is a re-evaluation of our performance since '95.

 

It has to do with some hidden commerce that was not previously visible now being retrospectively considered - I believe.

[CB Saint]

It certainly seems unfair, but don't read into this move that this is based on recent economic improvements.

 

My understanding is that this is a re-evaluation of our performance since '95.

 

It has to do with some hidden commerce that was not previously visible now being retrospectively considered - I believe.

 

Having read a bit more, it seems that the black market has been included (quite how they substantiate the value of that is anyone's guess) So basically because our drugs dealers are more cannyand our prostitutes spend more time on their backs than their european counterparts, we have to pay more - great

[moonraker]

And? The shiit pubs that closed were because they were shiit, not working class, middle class or any other class, just shiit.

 

Around here they have been the pubs that serve middle class estates but didn't cater for families, the massive places like the photo Pap posted or the more "local" pubs in and around the town centre.

 

Still plenty of traditional pubs with separate lounge\public bars and I drink in one. The best thing though as been the rise of the real ale pubs.

About sums it up.

[ecuk268]

According to the latest IPSOS-MORI poll, while UKIP support has been growing in the polls, the percentage of people wishing to remain in the EU has grown from 41% in late 2011 to 56% now. Those wishing to leave have fallen from 49% to 36% over the same period.

 

There is also a majority that wish to stay in among the supporters of the 3 main parties.

 

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3463/Support-for-EU-membership-highest-for-23-years-even-as-UKIP-rises-in-the-polls.aspx

[Johnny Bognor]

So we have to pay an extra £1.7 billion to the EU? Whilst France and Germany get a rebate?

 

It's funny how the two main drivers of the single european currency (which was a financial disaster) get a rebate, whilst we are expected to pay more as we faired better by staying out?

[Lord Duckhunter]

So fake outrage from "call me" Dave regarding the £1.7 billion EU payment , trying to claim that it's "unacceptable" and he "wont pay it". Trying to claim that it suddenly dropped on the doorstep of number 11 and nobody knew about it. What a load of ********, they knew all along , as Nigel said today "those are the rules".

 

Daniel Hannann is claiming the only surprise was that somebody in the EU leaked it to damage Dave and the renegotiation trick he's trying to pull on the British electorate.

 

Somebody said on TV today that as Dave claims he "works for the British people", perhaps he can tell us, his line Managers , when he became aware there would be a payment due and if he's going to pay ANY extra amount into the vast bottomless money pit. His fake outrage was very very carefully worded, "an estimate" , we are not paying "this bill". Watch Dave get a few quid knocked off the bill and claim a "victory".

 

AS an aside, if the Government pledged to make £1.7billion of extra cuts , these UK U**** and the Owen Jones' of the world would be getting their sandals in a right twist.

Edited 24 October, 2014 by Lord Duckhunter

[moonraker]

There is obviously a regulation that led to this. It will have been agreed without full understanding of the consequences. It is nonsense, the politicians in Europe must stand up tell the Bureaucrats that the regulation be suspended until elected representatives have had sufficient time to review it. This is great opportunity for Dave to p**s on UKIP’s chips.

[ecuk268]

So fake outrage from "call me" Dave regarding the £1.7 billion EU payment , trying to claim that it's "unacceptable" and he "wont pay it". Trying to claim that it suddenly dropped on the doorstep of number 11 and nobody knew about it. What a load of ********, they knew all along , as Nigel said today "those are the rules".

 

Daniel Hannann is claiming the only surprise was that somebody in the EU leaked it to damage Dave and the renegotiation trick he's trying to pull on the British electorate.

 

Somebody said on TV today that as Dave claims he "works for the British people", perhaps he can tell us, his line Managers , when he became aware there would be a payment due and if he's going to pay ANY extra amount into the vast bottomless money pit. His fake outrage was very very carefully worded, "an estimate" , we are not paying "this bill". Watch Dave get a few quid knocked off the bill and claim a "victory".

 

AS an aside, if the Government pledged to make £1.7billion of extra cuts , these UK U**** and the Owen Jones' of the world would be getting their sandals in a right twist.

 

A Tory MEP was being interviewed about this on R4 this morning.

 

When asked when they first knew about this, all he would say was "It's a disgrace". The interviewer asked the question 3 times but got the same answer.

[buctootim]

Odd that there wasnt all this outrage when we got rebates via the same formula.

[saintbletch]

Can I ask those who are UKIP-curious, and who could conceive of voting UKIP at the next general election, what are you looking to achieve?

 

A message to the Tories, a message to Labour, a UKIP government, UKIP forming the minority part of a coalition, etc?

 

Or is this just something you feel you have to do for ideological reasons?

 

I'm intrigued as to how the Tory line of vote for Nigel, wake up with Ed will play.

 

Anyone?

 

I'm genuinely interested.

[Lord Duckhunter]

There is obviously a regulation that led to this. It will have been agreed without full understanding of the consequences. It is nonsense, the politicians in Europe must stand up tell the Bureaucrats that the regulation be suspended until elected representatives have had sufficient time to review it. This is great opportunity for Dave to p**s on UKIP’s chips.

 

Just watched the start of "Daily Politics" on catch up. Andrew Neil stumped the leader of the Tory party in the EU. Evidently , this calculation was voted through the EU in 2013 and the Tories voted FOR the measure. The other fact he pointed out was that far from get a cut in the EU budget ( a "victory" that Dave keeps banging on about) the EU budget (excluding this £1.7 billion) . This ridiculous Tory had to sit there and try to claim that it was a victory because Dave managed to "slow the rate that it went up". What are these clowns on.

 

The thing with the EU is that the Establishment don't defend it and stick up for what they believe . What they do is take the bits they don't think the public like and lie about them. Even the Lib/Dumbs are calling this unacceptable. When will somebody say "these are the rules, this is the price we pay to stay in the EU and I think it's worth it".

 

Only in the EUSSR could France and Germany get a rebate, which that economic powerhouse Greece has to contribute to.