KelvinsRightGlove Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Eh? I'm not saying they haven't done well everywhere, was commenting on how poorly they did in London. How do you explain that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 How do you explain Birmingham then? What, where Labour increased its seats and retained overall control with more than double the conservatives' seats and UKIP won 0? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 What, where Labour increased its seats and retained overall control with more than double the conservatives' seats and UKIP won 0? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Eh? I'm not saying they haven't done well everywhere, was commenting on how poorly they did in London. How do you explain that? Hmm. London. Huge international demand, huge international city, diverse ethnic population, massive amounts of foreign money and full of the commentators who've recently come to note by calling mistakenly labelling good proportion of the British electorate racist. Not that much of a conundrum, KRG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 UKIP for Euro (protest vote against a very undemocratic Europe), Labour for council elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Hmm. London. Huge international demand, huge international city, diverse ethnic population, massive amounts of foreign money and full of the commentators who've recently come to note by calling mistakenly labelling good proportion of the British electorate racist. Not that much of a conundrum, KRG. For an intelligent chap, you do talk nonsense sometimes. If all UKIPs scare stories are true, London should feel all the problems more than anywhere. It is has amongst the highest rates of immigration in the country, the highest population of any where in the country and debatably the biggest strain on services. Yep, there is an ethnically diverse population, but that should bother Nigel, he showed us how many black friends he has, he stood on a stage with like 20 of them, HE CANT POSSIBLY BE NASTY!!! If there was such problems UKIP tell us, you would expect people in the areas most affected to buy into it. They didn't, even the BNP managed to make a mark in local elections in East London. Maybe they earned their lesson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 108 council seats for labour a failure ukip about 96 seats seen as a brake threw .don't make me laugh Reality is nothings changed and its only the marginal seats at general elections will decide who ends at in government. Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Hmm. London. Huge international demand, huge international city, diverse ethnic population, massive amounts of foreign money and full of the commentators who've recently come to note by calling mistakenly labelling good proportion of the British electorate racist. Not that much of a conundrum, KRG. UKIP fella explained Lodon results because the electorate was young, diverse and educated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2014 For an intelligent chap, you do talk nonsense sometimes. If all UKIPs scare stories are true, London should feel all the problems more than anywhere. It is has amongst the highest rates of immigration in the country, the highest population of any where in the country and debatably the biggest strain on services. Yep, there is an ethnically diverse population, but that should bother Nigel, he showed us how many black friends he has, he stood on a stage with like 20 of them, HE CANT POSSIBLY BE NASTY!!! If there was such problems UKIP tell us, you would expect people in the areas most affected to buy into it. They didn't, even the BNP managed to make a mark in local elections in East London. Maybe they earned their lesson? Sorry, KRG - maybe one day I'll post nowt but pleasing content which meets your intellectual approval. Essex voted UKIP in numbers, and that's close to London. What's different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 UKIP fella explained Lodon results because the electorate was young, diverse and educated. about right and looks to the future rather than the past . Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2014 about right and looks to the future rather than the past . Looks after itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2014 "The word 'racism' has been demeaned and diminished. When it's used now, it doesn't mean a single thing". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27533394 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Sorry, KRG - maybe one day I'll post nowt but pleasing content which meets your intellectual approval. Essex voted UKIP in numbers, and that's close to London. What's different? I'm not asking for pleasing content. I asked how, in an area where all of UKIPs claims should be most apparent, they performed so poorly? You basically repeated my points, it's a big city, with people from all over the world, oh and then said it's because we have all been brainwashed? Where does that come in on your disinformation scale? Errm, well you answered the question pap, they are close but not the same. Is it uncommon for neighbouring electoral districts to return different result? Nah, not by a long shot. There is also the fact that Essex, being a county, not a City is a lot different. There are some built up towns, but also more rural areas. Closer to home for you, how come Wallasey & Birkenhead voted Labour in 2010, yet Wirral West voted Tory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Hmm. London. Huge international demand, huge international city, diverse ethnic population, massive amounts of foreign money and full of the commentators who've recently come to note by calling mistakenly labelling good proportion of the British electorate racist. Not that much of a conundrum, KRG. Exactly that. After all this time, many still don't have a basic understanding of the appeal of UKIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Exactly that. After all this time, many still don't have a basic understanding of the appeal of UKIP. So they don't appeal to those affected by the things they claim are problems in this country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 If Farage becomes PM does he deport his wife and child or quickly backpedal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 If Farage becomes PM does he deport his wife and child or quickly backpedal? Those bloody germans, coming over here, taking our MEPs secretary jobs etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 At the end of the day nothings changed and such a low turn out so it does not seem a massive issue with most of the country apart from the chattering classes. Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 It's a bit pointless looking at the Borough Council results and drawing conclusions as to how UKIP will perform in the European Elections, the results of which we will not know until Sunday. Many friends of mine have done exactly what I have and voted UKIP in the Europeans and for their favoured party in the locals. I suspect that they will also therefore be voting for one of the three traditional mainstream parties in the General Election, although undoubtedly UKIP can reasonably claim to have joined the other three as a major political force and an effective option for a protest vote in marginal seats. This should serve as a bitter lesson in particular for Cameron, who if he had held a referendum on European membership during this term, would have taken the rug from under UKIP's feet. As it stands, the electorate are fed-up with broken promises from the main parties and will almost certainly have given them a good kicking in these European MEP elections. With the success of UKIP's rise behind them, the main parties must be running scared as to how their votes will pan out in the General Election. In my opinion the Conservatives will look pretty weak guaranteeing a referendum in 2017, which could be a year or even two years after the General Election and the electorate will not believe that they will keep their promise, as they might use a hung Parliament as an excuse yet again. The other parties might also have to revue what their manifestos say about the referendum and their position on it in light of UKIP's success. Even when the referendum is eventually held, it is not as clear cut as voting to stay in or leave. I suspect that the majority vote would be to stay in Europe solely on a trade basis and nothing more, i.e, a return to the Common Market and nothing else that had been agreed in subsequent treaties that turned it into the EU. As such, that scenario ought to be offered as a third choice in the referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2014 I'm not asking for pleasing content. I asked how, in an area where all of UKIPs claims should be most apparent, they performed so poorly? You basically repeated my points, it's a big city, with people from all over the world, oh and then said it's because we have all been brainwashed? Where does that come in on your disinformation scale? Errm, well you answered the question pap, they are close but not the same. Is it uncommon for neighbouring electoral districts to return different result? Nah, not by a long shot. There is also the fact that Essex, being a county, not a City is a lot different. There are some built up towns, but also more rural areas. Closer to home for you, how come Wallasey & Birkenhead voted Labour in 2010, yet Wirral West voted Tory? I don't agree with your reasoning. In almost every other aspect of life, London is different from the rest of the country. At no point did I say that foreigners -> brainwashing. They were list items in response to your question, which was (unbelievably) "why is London different?", despite the fact that you live there and presumably have a good inkling. I'd say Essex voted UKIP because of demographics. It's much whiter than London, has a lot of ex-London residents, many of whom probs did the white flight thing back in the day. It goes to underpin the ethnic diversity argument we've both made for the London results. Wirral West is posh. Birkenhead and Wallasey are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2014 At the end of the day nothings changed and such a low turn out so it does not seem a massive issue with most of the country apart from the chattering classes. Gotta ask, why even post on this thread if your opinion is that nothing's changed? What is the turnout, and how does it compare to previous ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 So they don't appeal to those affected by the things they claim are problems in this country? They do appeal to them, that is why so many have voted for them. The whole thing seems to have gone right over your head though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Fk sake. Anyone seen Ed Miliband trying to look natural yet? http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/21/ed-miliband-awkward-video_n_5363306.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular New Labour leader to Millbank, new Labour leader to Millbank! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 At the end of the day nothings changed and such a low turn out so it does not seem a massive issue with most of the country apart from the chattering classes. Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk What do you mean, nothing's changed? Do you know what the outcome is in the European Elections? I refer you to the thread's title Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Gotta ask, why even post on this thread if your opinion is that nothing's changed? What is the turnout, and how does it compare to previous ones? Is "nothing has changed" not a valid opinion then? He's right nothing has changed. UKIP poll highly in 'protest' elections and fade away again at general elections. If we had proportional representation it would be a different story - but we don't, so its not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Is "nothing has changed" not a valid opinion then? He's right nothing has changed. UKIP poll highly in meaningless elections and fade away again at general elections. If we had proportional representation it would be a different story - but we don't, so its not. It's potentially valid (it's early), but a little redundant. How's about I post every day on the status of my top lip? Monday: Nothing has changed Tuesday: Nothing has changed Wednesday: Found small blot of tomato sauce Thursday: Nothing has changed Friday: Nothing has changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Nothing changing:- http://news.sky.com/story/1267344/essex-man-gives-ukip-big-election-boost Nigel Farage's party has also eaten into traditional Labour territory further north, taking seats in Hartlepool, gaining 10 councillors in Rotherham and collecting a third of the vote in some areas of Birmingham and Hull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Is "nothing has changed" not a valid opinion then? He's right nothing has changed. UKIP poll highly in 'protest' elections and fade away again at general elections. If we had proportional representation it would be a different story - but we don't, so its not. But there has been change. UNless you're suggesting the results from these elections are exactly the same as the previous local elections? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 I don't agree with your reasoning. In almost every other aspect of life, London is different from the rest of the country. At no point did I say that foreigners -> brainwashing. They were list items in response to your question, which was (unbelievably) "why is London different?", despite the fact that you live there and presumably have a good inkling. I'd say Essex voted UKIP because of demographics. It's much whiter than London, has a lot of ex-London residents, many of whom probs did the white flight thing back in the day. It goes to underpin the ethnic diversity argument we've both made for the London results. Wirral West is posh. Birkenhead and Wallasey are not. Whilst yes, London is different it isn't exactly an alien entity in the south of Britain. There is still a lot of British people, and a lot of white people (not just from London but all over the UK). It is different in that it is bigger, has higher rates of immigration and more stress on public services than housing. I never asked, why is London different, I asked why did UKIP perform so poorly in London. I said that many of the things that UKIP shouts so loudly about are more prevalent in London than many of the other places in the country, including Essex. So thought it was interesting that they did so badly here. I also didn't say foreigners = brainwashing. I was responding to you saying that basically anyone who thinks UKIP have a racist rhetoric (I actually said xenophobic) is doing so because the media told me so. I couldn't possibly have come to that conclusion on my own accord, nor could anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Interesting that Labour has increased its seats in London over and above the last election there that delivered its best vote! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Nothing changing:- http://news.sky.com/story/1267344/essex-man-gives-ukip-big-election-boost They did so well in B'ham that they won the grand total of 0 seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 They do appeal to them, that is why so many have voted for them. The whole thing seems to have gone right over your head though. I was talking about London, how have they done in London? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Nothing changing:- http://news.sky.com/story/1267344/essex-man-gives-ukip-big-election-boost UKIP have so far won 89 seats out of the 21,000 council seats in Britain. Oh **** its a world changing earthquake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2014 They did so well in B'ham that they won the grand total of 0 seats. Yeah, on FPTP locals. They'll get a lot more than that in the Euros. Píss poor argument by the way. Anyone who knows the electoral system will see through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 But there has been change. UNless you're suggesting the results from these elections are exactly the same as the previous local elections? sure there is change in the numbers, just as at every election - but not the major seachange the pundits have been speculating on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Yeah, on FPTP locals. They'll get a lot more than that in the Euros. Píss poor argument by the way. Anyone who knows the electoral system will see through it. So proportional representation is fairer and more democratic? We only have it in the European elections because the EU insist on it yet UKIP attack them for being undemocratic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Yeah, on FPTP locals. They'll get a lot more than that in the Euros. Píss poor argument by the way. Anyone who knows the electoral system will see through it. The Euros are a protest vote. Look at some of the results in the past. Locals are too, to a lesser extent. If UKIP are serious about this earthquake, and want to get anywhere in Generals, they are going to have to deal with FPTP. So, no, it really isn't a poor argument. You need less votes, in locals, and there are more seats available, failing to gain any is not a good sign that your political earthquake is on the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 sure there is change in the numbers, just as at every election - but not the major seachange the pundits have been speculating on. What major seachange were you expecting? How often does a significant new party emerge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Yeah, on FPTP locals. They'll get a lot more than that in the Euros. Píss poor argument by the way. Anyone who knows the electoral system will see through it. Perfectly fine argument. Sky are saying how they are making great stride in Labour's heartlands when the results at the moment, bar a few blips, clearly show otherwise. The tories and Libs and taking an utter kicking and Labour isn't in the locals. The Euros, I suspect, will see all the main 3 taking a hiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2014 So proportional representation is fairer and more democratic? We only have it in the European elections because the EU insist on it yet UKIP attack them for being undemocratic. What is this, "easily defeatable argument hour"? UKIPs argument is fúck all to do with PR. The EU has an unelected executive branch. It suspends democracy to allow central banking to take priority. Those are just two counter-points off the top of my head, and one more than I needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 (edited) What major seachange were you expecting? How often does a significant new party emerge? I wasnt expecting one at all. I was expecting UKIP to pick up a number of some seats as a protest vote against the Tories - exactly the same as you see in every mid term election. They have done less well than my modest expectations for them. Edited 23 May, 2014 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 I was talking about London, how have they done in London? Pap has explained to you why, it's not a particularly complex explanation for you to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Pap has explained to you why, it's not a particularly complex explanation for you to understand. Ah, nice input man. I've explained why I disagree with pap. Are you just waiting for him to make your rebuttal to that also? Or are you going to be so bold as to actually make some points of your own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 What is this, "easily defeatable argument hour"? UKIPs argument is fúck all to do with PR. The EU has an unelected executive branch. It suspends democracy to allow central banking to take priority. Those are just two counter-points off the top of my head, and one more than I needed. Thing is Pap you only defeat people in your head. Most other people just snig ger at the replies. The 'unelected branch' is the European Commission. It is the EU's civil service (you know those evil staff who work for parliament). The commission implement decisions of the European Parliament (which has just been voted on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 23 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Thing is Pap you only defeat people in your head. Most other people just snig ger at the replies. How do you know that? Are you part of a whispering PM group? Is private snickering fun? The 'unelected branch' is the European Commission. It is the EU's civil service (you know those evil staff who work for parliament). The commission implement decisions of the European Parliament (which has just been voted on). The Commission has a virtual monopoly on the introduction of legislation into the legislative process, a power which gives the Commission considerable influence as an agenda setter for the EU as a whole. Like I said, easily defeatable argument hour. Did you really think you could pass the European Commission off as mere civil service? The only thing the MEPs get to vote on is legislation the Commission proposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Dammit tim, you blew our cover! Was fun while it lasted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 Is "nothing has changed" not a valid opinion then? He's right nothing has changed. UKIP poll highly in 'protest' elections and fade away again at general elections. If we had proportional representation it would be a different story - but we don't, so its not. Based on council elections Eastleigh will remain liberal and labour will retain both Southampton seats at the general election.ukip will do well at euro election's but the general election is the only one that matters and a vast majority who voted ukip in protest will return to the majority party's has happened at the last euro elections.look up the records. Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 How do you know that? Are you part of a whispering PM group? Is private snickering fun? Like I said, easily defeatable argument hour. Did you really think you could pass the European Commission off as mere civil service? The only thing the MEPs get to vote on is legislation the Commission proposes. Heres a EU primer for you - this one courtesty of Richard Corbett. You should exercise a bit of free thought and read less media guff. http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/key-issues/meps-job/ Initial proposals for EU legislation are researched and put forward by the European Commission, which is also responsible for carrying out EU policies once they have been adopted. This executive body is composed of 28 individuals, proposed by EU national governments and approved by the European Parliament. The Commission holds office for five years, subject to Parliament’s continuing approval. It can be dismissed by Parliament during its term of office. Part of an MEP’s job is to keep tabs on the executive Commission and on the civil servants working under the authority of the Commission — the famous Brussels bureaucrats. In fact, the total number of civil servants working for the Commission is fewer than work for a medium-sized city council — contrary to tabloid mythology! Nonetheless, they must be held accountable. Commissioners and their civil servants regularly appear before European Parliamentary committees to be questioned, to explain what they are up to and to be cross-examined. Key facts The European Commission is a small body, with fewer employees than Leeds City Council. It has no legislative power. It can only make proposals to Parliament and Council, and carry out what is agreed. Commissioners are held to account by Parliament, and are regularly called to be cross-examined by Parliamentary committees. Parliament approves or rejects the appointment of the Commissioners, and can dismiss them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 UKIP have so far won 89 seats out of the 21,000 council seats in Britain. Oh **** its a world changing earthquake. That's the reality unlike the nonsense the media and gullible like to believe Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindsorSaint Posted 23 May, 2014 Share Posted 23 May, 2014 UKIP have so far won 89 seats out of the 21,000 council seats in Britain. Oh **** its a world changing earthquake. Or to look at it another way, UKIP were defending one seat, and have seen an increase of 8900% with well under half the results in... Statistics are fun!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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