European Elections 2014

[igsey]

Not sure it's quite as relevant for European elections, but I'd recommend having a look at this site - http://voteforpolicies.org.uk/survey/select - which shows you policies in the areas you care about without showing you whose policies they are (although some of the BNP's are obviously theirs). I've never voted before, being 19 years old, so I did that which suggests I should be voting Green, which seems to fit. Once upon a time it would have been Lib Dem, but Mr. Clegg has lost the vote of about 90% of students with his little white lie.

[Barry Sanchez]

I'm not sure how you can vote for any party that doesn't have an opinion on or knowledge of all other political matters, such as policing, the economy, health, education. How on earth can any party claim that it's either better to be in or out of Europe when they don't have policies to deal with the fall out of such a decision. If there is no need to have policies in place to deal with life outside the EU then there is no need to leave it. It's a ludicrous position that UKIP have taken here and I really struggle to see how anyone can vote for it.

 

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One policy parties grow in time, look at the Greens? They will also with our broken democratic system shall play a role now in more coalitions. They are valid but limited.

[TwoPints]

One policy parties grow in time, look at the Greens? They will also with our broken democratic system shall play a role now in more coalitions. They are valid but limited.

 

I think the Greens are a different ball game altogether. They are not encouraging people to make a decision to leave one of the worlds greatest trading blocks without explaining to anyone how they will manage the consequences and costs of doing so. At least with the Green party, they have explained their vision and the benefits of it and I agree that those views will, with the right level of support, sway decision makers in the ruling parties.

 

If the vision of UKIP is to force a referendum then I suspect they will achieve that but anymore than that and they're out of their depth.

 

For what it's worth, I'm happy not to have a referendum on the EU. I think there's other things to worry about personally and although we're told that the majority of people want a vote, I don't think I've met anyone that is jumping up and down demanding one. The media seem to have jumped on this but I like to think I can make my own mind up and I'm happy the way things are.

 

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[Lord Duckhunter]

What a ridiculous argument. Firstly, Ukip do have domestic policies and will have a manifesto containing them at the next election . Secondly, it is not a question of leaving the EU and having a UKIP government , it doesn't matter what their policies are. It is a perfectly coherent position to vote for withdrawal from the EU and then vote for whoever you want to run an independent UK. Personally I'll be voting for which ever party i feel can best get us out of this 1950's EUSSR and give us back our right to govern ourselves given away by Grocer Heath and other traitors. Once independent, i doubt if id vote UKIP, particularly as I am a republican , although i am in favour of their education policy. What UKIP represent is pressure on the establishment to give the people a say, the Liblabcon have played us for fools for too long.

[BlakeySFC]

Definitely the Green Party for me.

 

Edited 3 May, 2014 by BlakeySFC

[pap]

Resurrecting this for two reasons.

 

1) The elections are this week

2) The More UKIP Bother thread is providing a rather one-sided view of the situation. Serious discussion is encouraged here.

 

We don't know it yet, but these elections could be a seminal point in modern British history. Others have argued that UKIP and other anti-EU parties will make no impact on Westminster. In terms of seats won, they are absolutely correct. The system is rigged against any of the small parties; I seriously doubt whether UKIP could command majorities. In terms of seats affected, they are absolutely in the wrong. While some may be fully aware in the differences in electoral system, turnout percentages, etc - I suspect the vast majority that vote UKIP in the EU elections will do the same in the general election next year. They won't win any seats, but can stop others gaining majorities.

 

People have also argued that the results of these elections are meaningless. Again, I'd disagree, but I'm happy to be proved wrong. Strong anti-EU sentiment will be impossible to ignore. If anti-EU parties secure a decent share of the vote, it'll be interesting to see what comes next. I've often floated the theory that one party may break ranks on the issue, but given the lengths that major parties have gone to avoid the issue, I've virtually no faith in it.

 

Returning to the present, I'm just interested in seeing how these elections go. I'm not sure we've seen much like them.

[View From The Top]

Resurrecting this for two reasons.

 

1) The elections are this week

2) The More UKIP Bother thread is providing a rather one-sided view of the situation. Serious discussion is encouraged here.

 

We don't know it yet, but these elections could be a seminal point in modern British history. Others have argued that UKIP and other anti-EU parties will make no impact on Westminster. In terms of seats won, they are absolutely correct. The system is rigged against any of the small parties; I seriously doubt whether UKIP could command majorities. In terms of seats affected, they are absolutely in the wrong. While some may be fully aware in the differences in electoral system, turnout percentages, etc - I suspect the vast majority that vote UKIP in the EU elections will do the same in the general election next year. They won't win any seats, but can stop others gaining majorities.

 

People have also argued that the results of these elections are meaningless. Again, I'd disagree, but I'm happy to be proved wrong. Strong anti-EU sentiment will be impossible to ignore. If anti-EU parties secure a decent share of the vote, it'll be interesting to see what comes next. I've often floated the theory that one party may break ranks on the issue, but given the lengths that major parties have gone to avoid the issue, I've virtually no faith in it.

 

Returning to the present, I'm just interested in seeing how these elections go. I'm not sure we've seen much like them.

 

The tories won't as their paymasters won't allow them, hence UKIP. The "big" parties will just ride the storm knowing that come May '15, UKIP will be irrelevant.

 

The only way that it may change is if DC is ousted by the right of his party, which isn't beyond the realms of possibility, which you could argue is a great result for UKIP.

[Saintandy666]

The Liberal Democrats are the only main party with a clear in policy. Labour and the Tories are all over the place, and UKIP are the party of out. As someone who believes the EU and the good it can and does do, I'll be voting Lib Dems.

[hypochondriac]

The Liberal Democrats are the only main party with a clear in policy. Labour and the Tories are all over the place, and UKIP are the party of out. As someone who believes the EU and the good it can and does do, I'll be voting Lib Dems.

 

Thankfully you are in the minority.

[igsey]

The Liberal Democrats are the only main party with a clear in policy. Labour and the Tories are all over the place, and UKIP are the party of out. As someone who believes the EU and the good it can and does do, I'll be voting Lib Dems.

 

As a £9000 a year fee-paying student, I will never be voting Lib Dems for anything so long as breath enters my lungs.

 

Green for me, though we may as well vote a potato into the European Parliament for all the difference it will make to us.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Resurrecting this for two reasons.

 

1) The elections are this week

2) The More UKIP Bother thread is providing a rather one-sided view of the situation. Serious discussion is encouraged here.

 

.

 

I've just listened to the podcast of "Any Questions" whilst walking the dog, and it was the most one sided and scandalous piece of serious political discussion I've had the misfortune to hear.

 

Ming Campbell claimed that had UKIP been running the country people couldn't have escaped from Hitler to the UK and calling people who wanted to withdraw from the EU "unpatriotic". He also tried to equate Scotland leaving the UK with the UK leaving the EU. Sadiq Khan claimed that in the EU you can marry a German (obviously a dig at Nigel).

 

This is meant to be the flag ship BBC radio political discussion show, joke.

[View From The Top]

I've just listened to the podcast of "Any Questions" whilst walking the dog, and it was the most one sided and scandalous piece of serious political discussion I've had the misfortune to hear.

 

Ming Campbell claimed that had UKIP been running the country people couldn't have escaped from Hitler to the UK and calling people who wanted to withdraw from the EU "unpatriotic". He also tried to equate Scotland leaving the UK with the UK leaving the EU. Sadiq Khan claimed that in the EU you can marry a German (obviously a dig at Nigel).

 

This is meant to be the flag ship BBC radio political discussion show, joke.

 

Never mind, the People's Army is on the march to right all wrongs.

[Lord Duckhunter]

When the State broadcaster is incapable of debating the issues in a serious and factual manner during a serious discussion show, there's something wrong.

[DuncanRG]

I've just listened to the podcast of "Any Questions" whilst walking the dog, and it was the most one sided and scandalous piece of serious political discussion I've had the misfortune to hear.

 

Ming Campbell claimed that had UKIP been running the country people couldn't have escaped from Hitler to the UK and calling people who wanted to withdraw from the EU "unpatriotic". He also tried to equate Scotland leaving the UK with the UK leaving the EU. Sadiq Khan claimed that in the EU you can marry a German (obviously a dig at Nigel).

 

This is meant to be the flag ship BBC radio political discussion show, joke.

 

Didn't listen but that sounds poor. Is it the panel selection you have an issue with though? They've invited prominent figures and balanced the parties in accordance with the (very strict) election impartiality rules the BBC has to follow.

 

Ultimately it's not the BBC's fault if the other parties choose to attack Ukip

[Saintandy666]

As a £9000 a year fee-paying student, I will never be voting Lib Dems for anything so long as breath enters my lungs.

 

Green for me, though we may as well vote a potato into the European Parliament for all the difference it will make to us.

 

As a person who is also currently on the £9k fees, and also marched against the rise back in 2010 and again in 2011, I will be voting for the liberal democrats. I want a strong pro-european voice and the Liberal Democrats are the only serious party that can provide that. I really think because this election is about a lot more than it usually is, pro-europeans should consider lending their vote to the Lib Dems or we will just get a bunch of MEPs in Europe who either are against the organisation or can't properly commit to it.

[Sour Mash]

As a person who is also currently on the £9k fees, and also marched against the rise back in 2010 and again in 2011, I will be voting for the liberal democrats. I want a strong pro-european voice and the Liberal Democrats are the only serious party that can provide that. I really think because this election is about a lot more than it usually is, pro-europeans should consider lending their vote to the Lib Dems or we will just get a bunch of MEPs in Europe who either are against the organisation or can't properly commit to it.

Why do you want a strong pro-european voice?

[pap]

As a person who is also currently on the £9k fees, and also marched against the rise back in 2010 and again in 2011, I will be voting for the liberal democrats. I want a strong pro-european voice and the Liberal Democrats are the only serious party that can provide that. I really think because this election is about a lot more than it usually is, pro-europeans should consider lending their vote to the Lib Dems or we will just get a bunch of MEPs in Europe who either are against the organisation or can't properly commit to it.

 

Hello Andy; which Liberals are the ones that are pro-Europe?

 

I got this through my letterbox this week.

 

[Saintandy666]

Pap: What is your point? So one particular Liberal Democrat changed his mind on the EU and is now UKIP. Makes sense really as the Liberal Democrats are a pro-european party.

 

Sour Mash: Because we gain and can do so much through Europe. We gain financially by being a driving part of the world's largest economy, and one which we do plenty of trade with ourselves. We gain politically because we are much louder together than apart. Just look at the effects the EU-co-ordinated ban on the chemicals used in lethal injections is having on the US debate on capital punishment. We also have our freedoms protected at a higher level, just look at the way in which the EU has recently struck down the unfair roaming charges companies bill whilst you are on holiday. If you want more details, look here: http://www.whathaseuropedone.eu/

[Sour Mash]

Pap: What is your point? So one particular Liberal Democrat changed his mind on the EU and is now UKIP. Makes sense really as the Liberal Democrats are a pro-european party.

 

Sour Mash: Because we gain and can do so much through Europe. We gain financially by being a driving part of the world's largest economy, and one which we do plenty of trade with ourselves. We gain politically because we are much louder together than apart. Just look at the effects the EU-co-ordinated ban on the chemicals used in lethal injections is having on the US debate on capital punishment. We also have our freedoms protected at a higher level, just look at the way in which the EU has recently struck down the unfair roaming charges companies bill whilst you are on holiday. If you want more details, look here: http://www.whathaseuropedone.eu/

So the best examples you can come up with are an ambiguous, distant point regarding US Capital Punishment and save a couple of quid on a holiday phone bill.

[trousers]

As a £9000 a year fee-paying student

 

Why have you chosen to pay all your "fees" upfront rather than pay them off gradually once you've secured a well paid job...?

[Saintandy666]

So the best examples you can come up with are an ambiguous, distant point regarding US Capital Punishment and save a couple of quid on a holiday phone bill.

 

If you want me to come up with more examples, we can go... how about the EHIC card which guarantees you free treatment whilst abroad in the European Economic Area? Or the eramus scheme which is something close to tonnes of students given the support it has offered in exchange programmes over the years. This and plenty more here - http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/european-debate/so-what-has-europe-ever-done-for-you-9099786.html and the website I linked above.

 

The main one though is obviously the single market and it's not a coincidence that business is generally pro-EU. UKIP and other eurosceptics like to pretend we would be able to keep that arrangement, but leave. They point to switzerland and norway, but conveniently forget to mention that norway and switzerland have to follow the vast majority of EU laws and regulations in order to get the benefits of the single market. Have a look here if you want: http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2011/05/why-britain-leaving-the-eu-for-the-eea-or-efta-will-not-solve-any-of-the-anti-eu-crowds-complaints/

[Sour Mash]

If you want me to come up with more examples, we can go... how about the EHIC card which guarantees you free treatment whilst abroad in the European Economic Area? Or the eramus scheme which is something close to tonnes of students given the support it has offered in exchange programmes over the years. This and plenty more here - http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/european-debate/so-what-has-europe-ever-done-for-you-9099786.html and the website I linked above.

 

The main one though is obviously the single market and it's not a coincidence that business is generally pro-EU. UKIP and other eurosceptics like to pretend we would be able to keep that arrangement, but leave. They point to switzerland and norway, but conveniently forget to mention that norway and switzerland have to follow the vast majority of EU laws and regulations in order to get the benefits of the single market. Have a look here if you want: http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2011/05/why-britain-leaving-the-eu-for-the-eea-or-efta-will-not-solve-any-of-the-anti-eu-crowds-complaints/

So nothing that actually has a positive impact on the majority of every day people of this country.

[Verbal]

Why have you chosen to pay all your "fees" upfront rather than pay them off gradually once you've secured a well paid job...?

 

You know full well he didn't say that he'd paid up front. Please don't drift back to your absurd point - stretching the definition of that word - that the debt isn't in some way real.

[Saintandy666]

You know full well he didn't say that he'd paid up front. Please don't drift back to your absurd point - stretching the definition of that word - that the debt isn't in some way real.

 

But it really isn't comparable to other forms of debt. As well as paying nothing now, I don't pay anything back until I can afford it at 9% over 21k a year, which is a higher threshold than the previous system. It doesn't go on my credit rating, and if I fall below 21k I stop paying. And then it gets cancelled after 30 years. At no point does someone knock on my door and repossess. I just pay steadily according to my means.

 

I know you know this, but I'm not sure a lot of people do. It really isn't a lot different from the old system and I think a lot of people are realising this now, with record applications and encouragingly record applications from people from poorer background.

[TwoPints]

So nothing that actually has a positive impact on the majority of every day people of this country.

 

I posted a very handy list of things that might fall into this category on the 'More UKIP bother' thread which might answer your question.

[TwoPints]

Thankfully you are in the minority.

 

I think not. Latest European polls show UKIP around 25‰-30‰ of the vote.

[trousers]

You know full well he didn't say that he'd paid up front. Please don't drift back to your absurd point - stretching the definition of that word - that the debt isn't in some way real.

 

OK.

[igsey]

Why have you chosen to pay all your "fees" upfront rather than pay them off gradually once you've secured a well paid job...?

 

I haven't, I have a loan to cover that of which I see not a penny, and then have that debt hanging over my head (which I'll be paying back with interest over the rate of inflation, naturally) for the next 30 years after I graduate into this over-saturated job market. Not sure why you've put the word "fees" in quotation marks? They are very real fees which I will still be ruing into my early fifties.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

People have also argued that the results of these elections are meaningless. Again, I'd disagree, but I'm happy to be proved wrong. Strong anti-EU sentiment will be impossible to ignore. If anti-EU parties secure a decent share of the vote, it'll be interesting to see what comes next. I've often floated the theory that one party may break ranks on the issue, but given the lengths that major parties have gone to avoid the issue, I've virtually no faith in it.

Any strong UKIP performance will (rightly or wrongly) be put down as a protest vote against the government + Labour (as a hangover from the last govt) and things will carry on as normal

[hypochondriac]

I think not. Latest European polls show UKIP around 25‰-30‰ of the vote.

 

Are you saying that those voting Lib Dem at this election will not be in the minority?

[trousers]

I haven't, I have a loan to cover that of which I see not a penny, and then have that debt hanging over my head (which I'll be paying back with interest over the rate of inflation, naturally) for the next 30 years after I graduate into this over-saturated job market. Not sure why you've put the word "fees" in quotation marks? They are very real fees which I will still be ruing into my early fifties.

 

I chose to buy a house in 1986 and am still paying for it today.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

The Liberal Democrats are the only main party with a clear in policy. Labour and the Tories are all over the place, and UKIP are the party of out. As someone who believes the EU and the good it can and does do, I'll be voting Lib Dems.

 

OK so it's not as black and white as being all out pro EU, but Labour's approach seems pretty sensible to me. Far from ' all over the place' anyway

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/05/labour-has-changed-immigration-we-recognise-public-was-right

[pap]

I chose to buy a house in 1986 and am still paying for it today.

 

Whether you bought your house or not is irrelevant. You chose to pay money getting a roof over your head. That's the choice here. The other choice was homelessness.

 

igsey has to choose to be in debt or waste potential going forward. Again, not really a choice.

 

Interestingly, both of you had to get help from a bank to make your choices. Neither of you could have done without it. Isn't it weird that neither of you really had no choice?

[TwoPints]

Whether you bought your house or not is irrelevant. You chose to pay money getting a roof over your head. That's the choice here. The other choice was homelessness.

 

igsey has to choose to be in debt or waste potential going forward. Again, not really a choice.

 

Interestingly, both of you had to get help from a bank to make your choices. Neither of you could have done without it. Isn't it weird that neither of you really had no choice?

 

Both had choices. Trousers could have rented a house rather than buy one. The choice isn't between a mortgage or homelessness. Similarly Igsey could have chosen to get a job, earn money, and study in between as many do. Otherwise, he only has to pay the debt back if his education rewards him financially. Choices all round.

[pap]

Both had choices. Trousers could have rented a house rather than buy one. The choice isn't between a mortgage or homelessness. Similarly Igsey could have chosen to get a job, earn money, and study in between as many do. Otherwise, he only has to pay the debt back if his education rewards him financially. Choices all round.

 

I deliberately said that house buying is irrelevant. The question is "do you spend money putting a roof over your head" (that covers rent or mortgage). Most of us "choose" to do that, at much greater expense than needs be, even though it isn't really a choice. Shelter is good.

 

Same thing with education. No matter whether igsey decides to go now or go later, at some point he's got a £9000 p.a. set of tuition fees to cover. As it goes, he has chosen to take the risk. Fair play to him, but he has every right to complain. Previous generations bore nothing like the burden he has to, and you could argue that long-term mismanagement of the country's finances has been a huge contributor.

 

Some might say that all this stuff needs to be paid for, and back in the day, it was generally understood that graduates would be able to command much higher sums in the workplace, thereby paying for themselves over their taxpaying lifetimes. Graduates today face much greater competition for jobs and no guarantee of a career. Governments have no guarantee that they'll recoup money spent on grants and tuition, so they've passed the burden onto the student, locking them into the financial system into the bargain.

 

I'd be livid if I were a student. "Yeah, kids. We kinda fúcked everything up. There aren't as many opportunities out there. Good luck! Don't forget to pay your £40K bill"

[Sour Mash]

I posted a very handy list of things that might fall into this category on the 'More UKIP bother' thread which might answer your question.

Had a quick look and couldn't find anything, can you repost?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Had a quick look and couldn't find anything, can you repost?

 

It was a load of old ********, 90% of which would have happened anyway , and other rest was opinion. The most laughable claims are around peace and policing, airbrushing NATO and Interpol out of history. Evidently everything good that's ever happened is down to the EU.

[TwoPints]

It was a load of old ********, 90% of which would have happened anyway , and other rest was opinion. The most laughable claims are around peace and policing, airbrushing NATO and Interpol out of history. Evidently everything good that's ever happened is down to the EU.

 

Yep, it all happened but apparently all imaginary to some.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Yep, it all happened but apparently all imaginary to some.

 

Not imaginary, but not necessarily down to the EU.

 

Still waiting for the breakdown of the "millions" that Nigel has " milked" from the system.

Edited 18 May, 2014 by Lord Duckhunter

[TwoPints]

Not imaginary, but not necessarily down to the EU.

 

Still waiting for the breakdown of the "millions" that Nigel has " milked" from the system.

 

Not sure I mentioned anything about millions. Your imagination is working overtime tonight. I think you're confusing me with someone else.

[TwoPints]

Not imaginary, but not necessarily down to the EU.

 

Here's the list... Let's see what would have happened without the EU :

 

 

Providing 57% of our trade - nope

Structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline - nope

Clean beaches and rivers - unlikely

Cleaner air - unlikely

Lead free petrol - yes

Restrictions on landfill dumping - maybe

A recycling culture - maybe

Cheaper mobile charges - nope

Cheaper air travel - nope

Improved consumer protection and food labelling - unlikely

A ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives - very unlikely

Better product safety - maybe

Single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance - nope

Break up of monopolies - unlikely

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection - nope

No paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market - nope

Price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the euro zone - nope

Freedom to travel, live and work across Europe - nope

Funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad - nope

Access to European health services - nope

Labour protection and enhanced social welfare - depends who got into government

Smoke-free workplaces - yes

Equal pay legislation - maybe

Holiday entitlement - maybe

The right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime - unlikely

Strongest wildlife protection in the world

Improved animal welfare in food production - unlikely

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration - nope

EU representation in international forums - nope

bloc EEA negotiation at the Web - nope

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty - nope

European arrest warrant - nope

Cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling - maybe

Counter terrorism intelligence - maybe

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa - nope

Support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond - nope

Investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital. - nope

EU wide Data Protection legislation to protect our personal data throughout Europe; - nope

 

However all of this is nothing compared with the greatest achievements of the EU which has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.*- certainly not.

 

So, I make it about two that would have happened, a number of things that are likely or might have happened but plenty of things that we wouldn't /couldn't have benefited from.

[Sour Mash]

Here's the list... Let's see what would have happened without the EU :

 

 

Providing 57% of our trade - nope

Structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline - nope

Clean beaches and rivers - unlikely

Cleaner air - unlikely

Lead free petrol - yes

Restrictions on landfill dumping - maybe

A recycling culture - maybe

Cheaper mobile charges - nope

Cheaper air travel - nope

Improved consumer protection and food labelling - unlikely

A ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives - very unlikely

Better product safety - maybe

Single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance - nope

Break up of monopolies - unlikely

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection - nope

No paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market - nope

Price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the euro zone - nope

Freedom to travel, live and work across Europe - nope

Funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad - nope

Access to European health services - nope

Labour protection and enhanced social welfare - depends who got into government

Smoke-free workplaces - yes

Equal pay legislation - maybe

Holiday entitlement - maybe

The right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime - unlikely

Strongest wildlife protection in the world

Improved animal welfare in food production - unlikely

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration - nope

EU representation in international forums - nope

bloc EEA negotiation at the Web - nope

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty - nope

European arrest warrant - nope

Cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling - maybe

Counter terrorism intelligence - maybe

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa - nope

Support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond - nope

Investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital. - nope

EU wide Data Protection legislation to protect our personal data throughout Europe; - nope

 

However all of this is nothing compared with the greatest achievements of the EU which has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.*- certainly not.

 

So, I make it about two that would have happened, a number of things that are likely or might have happened but plenty of things that we wouldn't /couldn't have benefited from.

So we had no trade with Europe before the start of the EU? Most of the other policies you list would have came in anyway, none were particularly innovative or progressive that couldn't have been implemented by a regular domestic government.

 

The only unique, beneficial thing provided by our EU membership is it makes it a bit easier to move, travel, work around Europe, but it was never exactly hard prior to EU regs changing things.

 

So overall, how is the average man in the street in this country better off as a result of EU membership?

[TwoPints]

So we had no trade with Europe before the start of the EU? Most of the other policies you list would have came in anyway, none were particularly innovative or progressive that couldn't have been implemented by a regular domestic government.

 

The only unique, beneficial thing provided by our EU membership is it makes it a bit easier to move, travel, work around Europe, but it was never exactly hard prior to EU regs changing things.

 

So overall, how is the average man in the street in this country better off as a result of EU membership?

 

You tell me, did we have 57% trade with Europe.. I doubt it. No one has said there was no trade. As I said in the other thread, they could have been brought in but they're unlikely to have been. Certainly none of the European cooperation ones of which there are many wouldn't have happened.

 

If you choose to believe that the UK government would have I been so accommodating in such matters then you have greater faith in UK politicians and politics than I do.

[TwoPints]

PS.. Do you disagree with any of them? If not, what's the problem? It seems to me that the EU have 'forced' very sensible and commendable laws on us and we would be worse off without them.

[Sour Mash]

You tell me, did we have 57% trade with Europe.. I doubt it. No one has said there was no trade. As I said in the other thread, they could have been brought in but they're unlikely to have been. Certainly none of the European cooperation ones of which there are many wouldn't have happened.

 

If you choose to believe that the UK government would have I been so accommodating in such matters then you have greater faith in UK politicians and politics than I do.

The percentage of trade is irrelevant, it is the total volume of overall trade that is important to the country. I have more faith in local politicians that are at least in some small way accountable than faceless individuals stuck in Brussels or elsewhere. Every day regulations would have been brought in my most modern governments, are you suggesting that EU nations are particularly unique in any of these "benefits"?

 

So, I'll ask again, how has the life of the every day man in the street been improved by our membership of the EU?

[TwoPints]

Well, I'm afraid you're question is rather pointless if your answer is always going to be 'well we would have done that anyway' when quite clearly at least 50% of those in my list wouldn't /couldn't have been achieved outside the EU, but all the same I'm still unsure of those that you disagree with.

[Sour Mash]

Well, I'm afraid you're question is rather pointless if your answer is always going to be 'well we would have done that anyway' when quite clearly at least 50% of those in my list wouldn't /couldn't have been achieved outside the EU, but all the same I'm still unsure of those that you disagree with.

Ok, let me put it another way to stop us going around in circles, the average man in the street doesn't care about any of the things you've listed, they are of little interest or benefit. Edited 19 May, 2014 by Sour Mash

[Orange]

I'm voting UKIP.

 

I want to see an independent Britain which is governed at a national and local level, not a huge superstate of un elected commissioners so far detached from reality, hell bent on this mad project. I strongly believe in a fair controlled immigration policy that doesn't discriminate my family in NZ over a Bulgarian, and protects us from unsustainable population growth.

 

I'm also attracted to UKIP on other issues like a rejection of HS2, building on greenfield sites, no wind farms, and a general long term vision of a smaller state. Distaste for things like inheritance tax etc.

 

LibLabCon sowed this field themselves, and i'm really hoping i'll be able to see their faces after a UKIP win on Thursday. I'd also love to see the media have to east humble pie. But it's no doubt going to be very close, and i'm sure UKIP will have lost a lot of potential votes through the constant negative headlines over the last couple of weeks.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I'm voting UKIP.

 

I want to see an independent Britain which is governed at a national and local level, not a huge superstate of un elected commissioners so far detached from reality, hell bent on this mad project. I strongly believe in a fair controlled immigration policy that doesn't discriminate my family in NZ over a Bulgarian, and protects us from unsustainable population growth.

 

I'm also attracted to UKIP on other issues like a rejection of HS2, building on greenfield sites, no wind farms, and a general long term vision of a smaller state. Distaste for things like inheritance tax etc.

 

LibLabCon sowed this field themselves, and i'm really hoping i'll be able to see their faces after a UKIP win on Thursday. I'd also love to see the media have to east humble pie. But it's no doubt going to be very close, and i'm sure UKIP will have lost a lot of potential votes through the constant negative headlines over the last couple of weeks.

 

Well said.

[Colinjb]

I'm voting UKIP.

 

I want to see an independent Britain which is governed at a national and local level, not a huge superstate of un elected commissioners so far detached from reality, hell bent on this mad project. I strongly believe in a fair controlled immigration policy that doesn't discriminate my family in NZ over a Bulgarian, and protects us from unsustainable population growth.

 

I'm also attracted to UKIP on other issues like a rejection of HS2, building on greenfield sites, no wind farms, and a general long term vision of a smaller state. Distaste for things like inheritance tax etc.

 

LibLabCon sowed this field themselves, and i'm really hoping i'll be able to see their faces after a UKIP win on Thursday. I'd also love to see the media have to east humble pie. But it's no doubt going to be very close, and i'm sure UKIP will have lost a lot of potential votes through the constant negative headlines over the last couple of weeks.

 

Frankly: Yes.

 

It's not just about immigration, it's about a longer term desire for control of our own affairs.