pap Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 In three weeks time, we should be waking up to the results of European MEP elections, which have enjoyed an unprecedented amount of attention due to the emergence of UKIP as a political force, and of course, the debates between Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage. Will strong numbers for anti-EU parties like UKIP and NO2EU cause the big political parties to change course? How will you be voting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 It's a tough call - I'm a paid up member of the Green Party, but am stuck between voting for policy or tactically, with an 'anyone-but-UKIP' angle. Quite tough to go tactical with proportional representation I suppose. In recent history the Lib Dems would've had a reasonable chance of taking seats away from UKIP in the South East, but their stock is at such a low that it's anybody's guess. Do the polls go down to a regional level? Definitely voting Lib Dem in the council-level election though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 2 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 2 May, 2014 The Euro elections are PR. I'm anti-EU, and thought I'd have to vote UKIP. Will probably vote for NO2EU instead. For me, the whole point is to register a protest vote - the NO2EU thing allows me to do that while making it clear I'm on the left. Don't think they're standing in the South East apart from London, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I find myself in a quandry as I'm pro-Europe but not pro the structures and governence of the EU. I will vote Green, however, as it's the only decent left wing option available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 No to UKIP, the Tories, and obviously the BNP. Not sure what choice that leaves me - probably vote Green as I did last time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Ukip for me and then I'm adopting a wait and see attitude for the general election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I find myself in a quandry as I'm pro-Europe but not pro the structures and governence of the EU. I will vote Green, however, as it's the only decent left wing option available. Me too. PR for European elections ensures they have a decent chance in many parts of the country too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Anyone but UKIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Green here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I'll be voting Labour because I want them to go into next year appearing strong and confident after a decent Euro performance. Ultimately getting the Tories out at the GE is the most important thing and the above would help, plus I think Labour's manifesto is shaping up ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 At what point do the BNP and UKIP think the country should have closed its borders to immigrants...? When neolithic man arrived? The Beaker folk? The Romans? The Anglo-Saxons? The Vikings? The Normans in the 11th century? The Huguenots in the 17th century? Indians, Afro-Caribbeans and Africans in 19th and 20th century? The Polish 10 years ago? Bulgarians in 2014? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Probably UKIP, because I don't agree with the open door immigration policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 At what point do the BNP and UKIP think the country should have closed its borders to immigrants...? When neolithic man arrived? The Beaker folk? The Romans? The Anglo-Saxons? The Vikings? The Normans in the 11th century? The Huguenots in the 17th century? Indians, Afro-Caribbeans and Africans in 19th and 20th century? The Polish 10 years ago? Bulgarians in 2014? FFS, Ukip have not suggested closing the border. They just want quality and quantity controls put in place by the UK parliament. Their immigration policy is the same for everybody, unlike the liblabcon that treat Africans differently than Germans. The ukip policy for German,French and Dutch nationals is exactly the same as the establishments is for Africans, Asians and south Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 At what point do the BNP and UKIP think the country should have closed its borders to immigrants...? When neolithic man arrived? The Beaker folk? The Romans? The Anglo-Saxons? The Vikings? The Normans in the 11th century? The Huguenots in the 17th century? Indians, Afro-Caribbeans and Africans in 19th and 20th century? The Polish 10 years ago? Bulgarians in 2014? Did Ukip say that? I think what they object to is open door immigration from countries in the EU. Not sure why you are lumping the bnp in with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 UKIP are effectively a party with similar views to the BNP but have realised an overly racist agenda isn't going to get them anywhere. Instead they've marketed themselves as the more acceptable version of the BNP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 UKIP are effectively a party with similar views to the BNP but have realised an overly racist agenda isn't going to get them anywhere. Instead they've marketed themselves as the more acceptable version of the BNP. Please explain the difference between ukips policy on immigration and the established parties policy on non EU immigration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 consertatives for me or maybe green... i think ukip will do well like the last time we had the euro elections and i expect they will mop up the protest vote to go with their odd ball supporters but in a general election i expect the ukip vote to fall back to there natural levels when people have to choose a proper governing party . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 The press and mainstream parties have been pretty successful at painting UKIP as the owner/occupier wing of the far right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 The press and mainstream parties have been pretty successful at painting UKIP as the owner/occupier wing of the far right. Gullibles like mlg get suckered in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Please explain the difference between ukips policy on immigration and the established parties policy on non EU immigration. I wasn't talking about the other parties or sticking up for them, I was talking UKIP. If UKIP thought they could get away with a policy of no immigration at all I think lots of their party members would want to do so. The press and mainstream parties have been pretty successful at painting UKIP as the owner/occupier wing of the far right. Gullibles like mlg get suckered in Stories like this are a regular occurrence for UKIP... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23597233 Are such views not racist? The press didn't hold a gun to his head and tell him to use the phrase "bongo bongo land" did they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I wasn't talking about the other parties or sticking up for them, I was talking UKIP. If UKIP thought they could get away with a policy of no immigration at all I think lots of their party members would want to do so. Stories like this are a regular occurrence for UKIP... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23597233 Are such views not racist? The press didn't hold a gun to his head and tell him to use the phrase "bongo bongo land" did they? All parties have members who in the past have expressed racist views or have had Controversy involving race. This is more of a problem for Ukip as they have seen a surge in popularity so quickly so it is harder to vet candidates. They are dealing with the problems this has caused. Having racists as members of a party does not make the party racist. If it did then every political party virtually would be racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Probably UKIP, because I don't agree with the open door immigration policy. I'll be doing the same. UKIP should gather a good chunk of the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I wasn't talking about the other parties or sticking up for them, I was talking UKIP. If UKIP thought they could get away with a policy of no immigration at all I think lots of their party members would want to do so. Stories like this are a regular occurrence for UKIP... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23597233 Are such views not racist? The press didn't hold a gun to his head and tell him to use the phrase "bongo bongo land" did they? What is racist about UKIP's policies? Nothing. It's quite straight forward. The average man (and women) in the street have had too short a deal for too long due to excessively high levels of immigration, keeping wages down and pushing the cost of living for stuff like rent up. That is why UKIP will quite rightly gather a good vote in these elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I wasn't talking about the other parties or sticking up for them, I was talking UKIP. If UKIP thought they could get away with a policy of no immigration at all I think lots of their party members would want to do so. Stories like this are a regular occurrence for UKIP... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23597233 Are such views not racist? The press didn't hold a gun to his head and tell him to use the phrase "bongo bongo land" did they?thats the trouble when they pinch slogans from the bnp,play on negative policies of fear and attract alot of odd balls and if you asked a majority of those who will vote for this micky mouse party about its economic policy,they would not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 thats the trouble when they pinch slogans from the bnp,play on negative policies of fear and attract alot of odd balls and if you asked a majority of those who will vote for this micky mouse party about its economic policy,they would not know.[/quote Possibly because UKIP don't seem to have an economic policy (or a health policy or an education policy)..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 thats the trouble when they pinch slogans from the bnp,play on negative policies of fear and attract alot of odd balls and if you asked a majority of those who will vote for this micky mouse party about its economic policy,they would not know. thats the trouble when they pinch slogans from the bnp,play on negative policies of fear and attract alot of odd balls and if you asked a majority of those who will vote for this micky mouse party about its economic policy,they would not know.[/quote Possibly because UKIP don't seem to have an economic policy (or a health policy or an education policy)..... They don't need them, that's not why people are keen to vote for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Stories like this are a regular occurrence for UKIP... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23597233 Are such views not racist? The press didn't hold a gun to his head and tell him to use the phrase "bongo bongo land" did they? What about this gem ? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-20773800 "A UKIP candidate who called for an NHS review to look at compulsory abortion of foetuses with Down's syndrome or spina bifida has been suspended." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 thats the trouble when they pinch slogans from the bnp,play on negative policies of fear and attract alot of odd balls and if you asked a majority of those who will vote for this micky mouse party about its economic policy,they would not know. In all honesty why do their other policies matter? This is a European election and every major party refuse to listen to the concerns of the majority so people will vote for Ukip to send a message. They are a one issue party but it just so happens that the public care about this issue more than liblabcon would like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 What about this gem ? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-20773800 "A UKIP candidate who called for an NHS review to look at compulsory abortion of foetuses with Down's syndrome or spina bifida has been suspended." I don't get your point. Political party has some oddballs and individuals with hateful views in it shocker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I don't get your point. Political party has some oddballs and individuals with hateful views in it shocker. UKIP seems to have more than most TBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 UKIP seems to have more than most TBF That's up for debate and there are some reasons behind that anyway. In all honesty it doesn't really matter though because they won't be in power. The media and other parties aren't listening and so most people who vote Ukip will do so to send a message and will then vote differently once the general election comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I don't get your point. Political party has some oddballs and individuals with hateful views in it shocker. I just like mocking UKIP. Yes, all parties have 'oddballs', but UKIP are the party of oddballs, and I think they are peddling an odious and extremely misleading agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I just like mocking UKIP. Yes, all parties have 'oddballs', but UKIP are the party of oddballs, and I think they are peddling an odious and extremely misleading agenda. What exactly is 'odious and misleading' about their agenda? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 2 May, 2014 Author Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I just like mocking UKIP. Yes, all parties have 'oddballs', but UKIP are the party of oddballs, and I think they are peddling an odious and extremely misleading agenda. I would have voted UKIP in the Euros if I didn't have an alternative. That's a left-winger voting for a party of oddballs. I've seen some of their more rabid followers on Twitter. One has blocked me on one of my accounts Still; who else do you vote for if you want out of Europe and no other anti-EU party is standing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 In all honesty why do their other policies matter? This is a European election and every major party refuse to listen to the concerns of the majority so people will vote for Ukip to send a message. They are a one issue party but it just so happens that the public care about this issue more than liblabcon would like.at least your honest about it, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 What exactly is 'odious and misleading' about their agenda? "75% of our laws are made in Brussels" - complete ******. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 "75% of our laws are made in Brussels" - complete ******. It's not wrong though. Most of our laws our shaped from EU directives, if not directly applied. In my opinion we should not be govererned by any influence from Brussels, what do you think? What else was 'misleading and odious' about UKIP's agenda? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 "75% of our laws are made in Brussels" - complete ******.thats rubbish ukip will be claiming 120 % next week for those feeble minded fools who believe that nonsense lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 It's not wrong though. Most of our laws our shaped from EU directives, if not directly applied. In my opinion we should not be govererned by any influence from Brussels, what do you think? It is wrong. Its a made up variation of a made up figure by German politician Werrner Herzog. UKIP admit they took the figure of 84% from Herzog who was talking about regulations rather than the more important stuff of budgetary legislation (ie taxation and spending). UKIP then deducted an arbitary 9% based on nothing "because we aren't in the Euro". These regulations are mainly stuff that if the UK didn't use common European standards we would gave to adopt our own standards at great expense and would be of poor quality. Remember Mad Cow disease and why Britain was the only country to experience it? They apply to sensible stuff creating a single spec and quality standard for cars, imported food, money laundering, safety of ferries and aircraft etc. Personally I wouldnt be upset if it went further - the loss of our right to feed pig brains to cows, allow speculative pyramid investment by our banks or build new houses without any standards so are the smallest and crappest in the whole of Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 It is wrong. Its a made up variation of a made up figure by German politician Werrner Herzog. UKIP admit they took the figure of 84% from Herzog who was talking about regulations rather than the more important stuff of budgetary legislation (ie taxation and spending). UKIP then deducted an arbitary 9% based on nothing "because we aren't in the Euro". These regulations are mainly stuff that if the UK didn't use common European standards we would gave to adopt our own standards at great expense and would be of poor quality. Remember Mad Cow disease and why Britain was the only country to experience it? They apply to sensible stuff creating a single spec and quality standard for cars, imported food, money laundering, safety of ferries and aircraft etc. Personally I wouldnt be upset if it went further - the loss of our right to feed pig brains to cows, allow speculative pyramid investment by our banks or build new houses without any standards so are the smallest and crappest in the whole of Europe. So how much of our laws are controlled or constrained by what we're allowed to do by Brussels? The simple fat is a significant proportion of this country does not feel the need for that level of control from a distant city. You think none of the laws you mentioned would have been brought in by an independent UK government? There is no reason whatsoever that the UK cannot survive and prosper outside of the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 (edited) What else was 'misleading and odious' about UKIP's agenda? IMO, having just looked at their website, pretty much their stance on everything they have posted as policy 'issues'. In fact the only one I can agree strongly with is the increase in Grammar schools. Edited 2 May, 2014 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 (edited) So how much of our laws are controlled or constrained by what we're allowed to do by Brussels? The simple fat is a significant proportion of this country does not feel the need for that level of control from a distant city. You think none of the laws you mentioned would have been brought in by an independent UK government? There is no reason whatsoever that the UK cannot survive and prosper outside of the EU. Its still a lot by number - probably around 50% - but the vast majority are about quality and standards in environment, consumer protection, food, employment etc which as you say the UK Government would have to do for itself at great expense if we didn't adopt common standards. The real meat of policy on social, health, taxation, education, energy, transport etc is controlled by the UK government not by the EU. Do you really consider a regulation on bacteria count in jam to be of the same importance as higher rate taxation or unemployment benefit? UKIP are deliberately misrepresenting facts to generate fear amongst the credulous. There is a real problem of excess immigration atm, exacerbated by the UK governments failure to build housing but the solution is what the Germans and French propose - only allowing immigrants to claim benefits in their home countries. These things even out over time, hundreds of thousands of Brits used to work in Germany during the 1980s recession here. Edited 2 May, 2014 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 IMO, having just looked at their website, pretty much their stance on everything they have posted as policy 'issues'. In fact the only one I can agree strongly with is the increase in Grammar schools. So what is 'misleading or odious' about wanting to leave the EU? Or returning control of the UK's borders to the UK? You might disagree with that policy, that's understandable, but I don't see why anyone would have such a problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Its still a lot by number - probably around 50% - but the vast majority are about quality and standards in environment, consumer protection, food, employment etc which as you say the UK Government would have to do for itself at great expense if we didn't adopt common standards. The real meat of policy on social, health, taxation, education, energy, transport etc is controlled by the UK government not by the EU. Do you really consider a regulation on bacteria count in jam to be of the same importance as higher rate taxation or unemployment benefit? UKIP are deliberately misrepresenting facts to generate fear amongst the credulous. There is a real problem of excess immigration atm, exacerbated by the UK governments failure to build housing but the solution is what the Germans and French propose - only allowing immigrants to claim benefits in their home countries. These things even out over time, hundreds of thousands of Brits used to work in Germany during the 1980s recession here. You're completely missing the point of UKIP's appeal if you think the issue would be solved by such a rule on benefit claimants or that UK nationals working in Germany in the 1980s has anything to do with anything. So you're saying that our cost of government has been greatly reduced by centralising policy in Brussels, have I understood that correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 I'm on holiday but would spoiled my ballot anyway if here and cant be arsed for a proxy, how can you vote on something you find wholly undemocratic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 So what is 'misleading or odious' about wanting to leave the EU?. There is nothing, per se, in wanting to leave the EU - however, deliberately misquoting or even completely fabricating statistics to "support" their argument is both. I also believe that their stance on immigration, etc, is in fact based more on xenophobia than economics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Its still a lot by number - probably around 50% - but the vast majority are about quality and standards in environment, consumer protection, food, employment etc which as you say the UK Government would have to do for itself at great expense if we didn't adopt common standards. The real meat of policy on social, health, taxation, education, energy, transport etc is controlled by the UK government not by the EU. Do you really consider a regulation on bacteria count in jam to be of the same importance as higher rate taxation or unemployment benefit? UKIP are deliberately misrepresenting facts to generate fear amongst the credulous. There is a real problem of excess immigration atm, exacerbated by the UK governments failure to build housing but the solution is what the Germans and French propose - only allowing immigrants to claim benefits in their home countries. These things even out over time, hundreds of thousands of Brits used to work in Germany during the 1980s recession here. All political parties deliberately misrepresent facts, UKIP are no different. I don't agree with many (probably most) of their policies, I'm easily more left wing than right. But UKIP are the only party to tell it like it is over the open door policy. Uncontrolled immigration from countries with much lower living standards is a barmy policy. Leaving the EU would probably effect businesses in the UK but people see the effects of immigration, first hand, every day. For example my builder mate is constantly being under-cut by eastern Europeans, the company I work for has to employ immigrants on peanuts to compete with the company down the road. A few months back my wife gave birth to my daughter and the resources at the hospital were completely overstretched. We received a sh!t service while the place was packed with Poles taking advantage of the free health care who couldn't even speak English. It's all anecdotal but most people I speak to tell a similar story. Big business might lose out a bit if we leave the EU but we would be better off overall IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Nothing abnormal about UKIP talking complete sh!te, all the other parties do it as well. Just annoying how people seem to think that UKIP are a viable option for Government when it's being proven day by day that their party is full of "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists™". Haven't voted since the General Election but I think I will probably end up voting for the Greens this time out and probably again this time next year. Only things I really disagree with them on are their current policies on renewable and nuclear energy, but only because our current options in terms of renewables are pretty ineffective and nuclear is a decent stopgap while we develop renewable technologies. Of course, that's not going to have a huge amount of bearing on the MEP elections, but it's all about the principle.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 Liblabcon immigration policy is to treat people differently depending on we here you come from, yet ukip are the racists? How does that work? If UK proposed open doors for Australia and new Zealand , but restrictions for African and Jamaican citizens I'm sure they'd be called all sorts of names. But that's the establishment position, ukip are racist for treating everybody the same but we're not by distinguishing between Europeans like ourselves, and Africans. The clegg debate showed who was losing over Europe, who was scaring people and who was twisting the facts and it wasn't Nigel. The people's army is on the march and the establishment are going to get a massive wake up call this month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoPints Posted 2 May, 2014 Share Posted 2 May, 2014 In all honesty why do their other policies matter? This is a European election and every major party refuse to listen to the concerns of the majority so people will vote for Ukip to send a message. They are a one issue party but it just so happens that the public care about this issue more than liblabcon would like. I'm not sure how you can vote for any party that doesn't have an opinion on or knowledge of all other political matters, such as policing, the economy, health, education. How on earth can any party claim that it's either better to be in or out of Europe when they don't have policies to deal with the fall out of such a decision. If there is no need to have policies in place to deal with life outside the EU then there is no need to leave it. It's a ludicrous position that UKIP have taken here and I really struggle to see how anyone can vote for it. Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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