"Financial Difficulties"

[Batman]

Are we in any?

when the club quotes this, is it any wonder the expensive players are reported as about to be sold?

 

what 'difficulties' are there and if there are none, why are the club doing well in making sure we think there is??

[Secret Site Agent]

Are we in any?

when the club quotes this, is it any wonder the expensive players are reported as about to be sold?

 

what 'difficulties' are there and if there are none, why are the club doing well in making sure we think there is??

 

Oh FFS, pal. please don't worry about it. we are a staedy ship at the moment thanks to the shrewdness of Cortese et al. We do not need to sell, it's business as usual and we don't have nay big debts.

rest your head my friend, there is nothing to worry about at this time that would cause us to have a fire sale.

[Barry Sanchez]

Are we in any?

when the club quotes this, is it any wonder the expensive players are reported as about to be sold?

 

what 'difficulties' are there and if there are none, why are the club doing well in making sure we think there is??

 

We are in debt and the better the players we try to sign in pursuit of a higher finish and trophies will cost us more and in turn putting us further in to debt, every club in this League is bankrolled, it just depends how much the owners are prepared to get into debt to acheive something.

[Pastor Patrón]

We are in debt and the better the players we try to sign in pursuit of a higher finish and trophies will cost us more and in turn putting us further in to debt, every club in this League is bankrolled, it just depends how much the owners are prepared to get into debt to acheive something.

 

At the same time though Sky money is twice as high this season or something stupid, would the increase not cover our relatively small debt? We definitely come across as one of the more financially secure teams in the league.

[Barry Sanchez]

At the same time though Sky money is twice as high this season or something stupid, would the increase not cover our relatively small debt? We definitely come across as one of the more financially secure teams in the league.

 

It will only raise wages again, agents fees and transfers, what have we gained the supporter from Sky's money?

[niceandfriendly]

Oh FFS, pal. please don't worry about it. we are a staedy ship at the moment thanks to the shrewdness of Cortese et al. We do not need to sell, it's business as usual and we don't have nay big debts.

rest your head my friend, there is nothing to worry about at this time that would cause us to have a fire sale.

 

Kreuger and Hofstetter have repeated that we are in a "difficult", "tricky" and "troubling" financial situation, despite the fact that we're actually... not.

[Barry Sanchez]

Kreuger and Hofstetter have repeated that we are in a "difficult", "tricky" and "troubling" financial situation, despite the fact that we're actually... not.

 

Never let the truth get in the way of forum talk with happy people on hear, they simply wont accept it.

[St Marco]

We are in debt and the better the players we try to sign in pursuit of a higher finish and trophies will cost us more and in turn putting us further in to debt, every club in this League is bankrolled, it just depends how much the owners are prepared to get into debt to acheive something.

 

Finish 8th = around £12m prize money

Payments for being in PL next season = around £50m

 

So doubt we will be in "debt" for long.

 

Especially if we continue to progress = mo money

[niceandfriendly]

Never let the truth get in the way of forum talk with happy people on hear, they simply wont accept it.

 

It's a strange one. The only possible conclusions that I can draw as to why RK and HH say our financial situation is difficult, is that a) they're preparing fans for some player sales or b) they don't know what they're talking about. B) seems unlikely as Gareth Roberts is on board.

 

Perhaps there is a c) that I've missed.

[jasoneuelllfanclub]

£27m debt is a drop in the ocean compared to most clubs in PL. It is a manageable debt as confirmed by Kruegar.

 

Given increases in TV revenue, league placing revenue and in the long term commercial revenue then I dont see any real reason to worry.

 

Yes I still think we will sell 2-3 valuable player assets but that is more player driven, not to do with debts.

[Barry Sanchez]

Finish 8th = around £12m prize money

Payments for being in PL next season = around £50m

 

So doubt we will be in "debt" for long.

 

Especially if we continue to progress = mo money

 

Shareholders, wages, running costs etc etc Its not real and if you get relegated and dont come up you are screwed, a bit like last time.

[Barry Sanchez]

£27m debt is a drop in the ocean compared to most clubs in PL. It is a manageable debt as confirmed by Kruegar.

 

Given increases in TV revenue, league placing revenue and in the long term commercial revenue then I dont see any real reason to worry.

 

Yes I still think we will sell 2-3 valuable player assets but that is more player driven, not to do with debts.

 

So we rely on Sky and Players sales? That is a very fragile business model.

[James]

So we rely on Sky and Players sales? That is a very fragile business model.

 

Who said we relied on it? It certainly helps though.

[Barry Sanchez]

Who said we relied on it? It certainly helps though.

 

Of course we rely on it, only a few clubs dont.

[Pastor Patrón]

It will only raise wages again, agents fees and transfers, what have we gained the supporter from Sky's money?

 

Yeah but not to the same extent, transfer fees maybe but no way wages will jump that much

[James]

Of course we rely on it, only a few clubs dont.

 

So all clubs have a fragile business model then? If it's standard practice and all clubs do it then we are as much as risk as them. Your post makes it out as something of special concern for Saints.

[Saint Charlie]

Oweing transfer money is surely BAU practice for any PL team. Considering the amounts coming in, and our relatively low wage bill compared to others, then I can't see that theres any issue, but they certainly made it one when revealing the accounts.

 

However, part of it could be lost in translation as they also clearly said it wasn't a problem, and was something they were prepared for.

 

To say we "need" to sell players is lazy journalism.

[John Boy Saint]

All of this is based on last years accounts, not having read all of that in depth, I would assume that running up that level of debt was secured against us finishing 8th and a cheque for a reputed £83m dropping on the SMS doormat at the end of this season. Which if I am still assuming correctly would explain the supposed bonus for MoPo getting us to finish 8th. As much as Cortese gets painted as the Bond villain, I doubt he would have piddled that amount of money up the wall with his eyes closed and moistening his finger to check the wind direction. He was pretty driven, the guy is a banker by trade for many years and switching on your own career dissipation light by unbalancing the books goes against the grain.

 

But still punt out a concerned message, gets your estate valued through the press at the speculation increasing the value of your playing assets adding to the value of the club, and rather than Moyes last year stating that he had £100m+ burning a hole in his pocket and have every potential selling club pressing the add 10%+ to the sale price, we get less dicking around.

 

As has been said already it's going to be a long summer................. Today's announcement from Bournemouth is financial difficulties as they have no Sugar Daddy TV deal in the Championship to paper over the cracks.

 

Just my naive view.

[Patrick Bateman]

So we rely on Sky and Players sales? That is a very fragile business model.

 

What??

 

FA contracted agreement with Sky & Premier League clubs over guaranteed minimum revenue is more fragile than other revenue streams?? (i.e. fans paying on the day & buying merchandise)

 

In terms of fragility, it's the one the club would worry least about. Even club sponsors would be considered a more risky revenue stream as they have clauses to be able to pull out if anyone does anything stupid (i.e. we hire Anelka and he does some gesture which is considered 'racist' by some quarters)

 

Sorry Barry, you're scraping the barrel with that one!

[Barry Sanchez]

So all clubs have a fragile business model then? If it's standard practice and all clubs do it then we are as much as risk as them. Your post makes it out as something of special concern for Saints.

 

Yes they do but as we are on the Saints board we are discussing them.

[Matthew Le God]

So we rely on Sky and Players sales? That is a very fragile business model.

 

Who said we relied on it? It certainly helps though.

 

Of course we rely on it, only a few clubs dont.

 

What do you even mean by "rely on it"? The team that finishes 20th gets £60m and the team that finishes 1st gets £100m in TV money. How does that make it a fragile business model?

 

We've hardly been a selling club relying on transfer income. Since the takeover 5 years ago in 2009 we've only sold one player the club didn't want to sell.

[James]

Yes they do but as we are on the Saints board we are discussing them.

 

So do you agree that if this is a standard business model amongst Premier League clubs then this is not something that we as Saints fans should be particularly concerned about?

 

I wonder if villa or Everton forums have threads agonising over the instability of the financial model adopted by premier league clubs? I think not.

 

You're scaremongering as usual.

[Barry Sanchez]

Take that money away, of course we rely on that handout, a handout is not self reliance is it, weak business model, others do it yes but not all. Why did the Krueger has said our finances are not too good, dont you believe him as its negative?

[Barry Sanchez]

So do you agree that if this is a standard business model amongst Premier League clubs then this is not something that we as Saints fans should be particularly concerned about?

 

I wonder if villa or Everton forums have threads agonising over the instability of the financial model adopted by premier league clubs? I think not.

 

You're scaremongering as usual.

 

 

Far bigger clubs and Everton are run very well, Villa not so but bigger ships can weather the storm better.

[James]

Far bigger clubs and Everton are run very well, Villa not so but bigger ships can weather the storm better.

 

Slowly backtracking from your statement that "only a few clubs don't rely on it" then?

[benjii]

The transfer "debt" is payments not yet due. It's not borrowed money.

 

I think the "difficult" comments were more about the difference between the reality and what Cortese had initially budgeted for (ie. they've found out he has spent 15million more than expected). I don't think they were saying the business is financially vulnerable.

[Barry Sanchez]

Slowly backtracking from your statement that "only a few clubs don't rely on it" then?

 

No I am not only a few dont rely on it and could survive without it.

[DuncanRG]

The quotes following the 2012/13 financials suggested that we inherited a difficult but manageable situation with no financial need to sell players. Since then, Les Reed has said that we're looking to bring in players. That's the most important bit for us as fans.

 

The data is publicly available and the club have commented quite openly on the difficulties and how we're going to manage them. The main problem, to my untrained eye, was in commercial income, which grew by very little considering we got promoted to the Premier League. Improving in that area is Ralph Krueger's main job.

[Barry Sanchez]

The quotes following the 2012/13 financials suggested that we inherited a difficult but manageable situation with no financial need to sell players. Since then, Les Reed has said that we're looking to bring in players.

 

The data is publicly available and the club have commented quite openly on the difficulties and how we're going to manage them. The main problem, to my untrained eye, was in commercial income, which grew by very little considering we got promoted to the Premier League. Improving in that area is Ralph Krueger's main job.

 

What does Kruegar propose? Saints t-shirts in the Mapusa Friday Market and on Khaosan-Road?

[Matthew Le God]

Take that money away, of course we rely on that handout, a handout is not self reliance is it, weak business model, others do it yes but not all. Why did the Krueger has said our finances are not too good, dont you believe him as its negative?

 

Please name the clubs that don't need the £60m to £100m they will get this season from Premier League TV money? All of them need it, even Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd.

 

Its not a weak business model, Saints costs take into account they have that source of income.

[Turkish]

The transfer "debt" is payments not yet due. It's not borrowed money.

 

I think the "difficult" comments were more about the difference between the reality and what Cortese had initially budgeted for (ie. they've found out he has spent 15million more than expected). I don't think they were saying the business is financially vulnerable.

 

Quite. It's all very strange how this is being spun. It's standard stuff for transfers to be paid over the duration of the contact, does no one remember the backslapping when Cortese was meant to have got Arsenal to pay the full fee for Chamberlain up front? The "debt" from transfers will be that the likes of Ramirez and Osvaldo wont be worth what we paid for them but this wont be anything like £27m.

[Saint_John]

My reading of the situation (correct me if you know differently) is that

- we are due to get £82m in PL payments which will be paid in instalments starting in August.

- we purchased a number of players in previous seasons on a 50% and 50% in 12 months time or 50% now and 25% in each of the next 2 seasons etc.

- because we were new to the PL we had to get "up and running early" and made a number of purchases early in the Transfer Windows e.g. Dejan was purchased on 14 June.

- therefore we now have to make 2nd & 3rd payments on certain players BEFORE the PL £82m arrives.

- this season we have brought forward the Season Ticket sales which should raise something like 20k x £500 (average) = £10m in the bank by June 1st.

- I fully expect us to have money available from the £82m for the purchase of other players but that will be LATE in the transfer window

- so imo NO REAL PROBLEM it is just a matter of structuring the outgoing and incoming correctly.

- imo the words "Financial Difficulties" were just a POINT SCORING EXERCISE against Nicola.

 

Our Debt is very small if you compare it to (figures from 2013) :-

Arsenal - £98m

Villa - £122m

Everton - £46m

Liverpool - £87m

Man Utd - £366m

Newcastle - £129m

Spurs - £70m

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/apr/18/premier-league-finances-club-by-club

[DuncanRG]

What does Kruegar propose? Saints t-shirts in the Mapusa Friday Market and on Khaosan-Road?

 

One obvious area for improvement is the shirt sponsor, as our current deal was signed in the Championship. I'm no businessman but he may also look to monetise the area around St Mary's, negotiate a kit deal when (or before) this one runs out etc. Out of necessity most of this sort of business happens behind closed doors but one thing he has mentioned publicly is an opportunity to build our brand globally. He's talked about targeting the American market and - quite shrewdly in my view - identified a potential gap for us as the 'Green Bay' team for Premier League fans over there.

[Barry Sanchez]

Please name the clubs that don't need the £60m to £100m they will get this season from Premier League TV money? All of them need it, even Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd.

 

Its not a weak business model, Saints costs take into account they have that source of income.

 

They could still operate though, City/Chelsea are being bankrollled in a crazy manner, United and Liverpool would still get by, Arsenal probably as they are no nearing the end of paying for their stadiums.

Everton, Spurs,Villa and Newcastle in the long term?

 

The rest? Not a chance.

[Barry Sanchez]

One obvious area for improvement is the shirt sponsor, as our current deal was signed in the Championship. I'm no businessman but he may also look to monetise the area around St Mary's, negotiate a kit deal when (or before) this one runs out etc. Out of necessity most of this sort of business happens behind closed doors but one thing he has mentioned publically is an opportunity to build our brand globally. He's talked about targeting the American market and - quite shrewdly in my view - identified a potential gap for us as the 'Green Bay' team for Premier League fans over there.

 

Negotiating a kit deal is hardly revolutionary when we need a new one anyway and comparing us to the Green Bay Packers is laughable and it is naive.

[Barry Sanchez]

My reading of the situation (correct me if you know differently) is that

- we are due to get £82m in PL payments which will be paid in instalments starting in August.

- we purchased a number of players in previous seasons on a 50% and 50% in 12 months time or 50% now and 25% in each of the next 2 seasons etc.

- because we were new to the PL we had to get "up and running early" and made a number of purchases early in the Transfer Windows e.g. Dejan was purchased on 14 June.

- therefore we now have to make 2nd & 3rd payments on certain players BEFORE the PL £82m arrives.

- this season we have brought forward the Season Ticket sales which should raise something like 20k x £500 (average) = £10m in the bank by June 1st.

- I fully expect us to have money available from the £82m for the purchase of other players but that will be LATE in the transfer window

- so imo NO REAL PROBLEM it is just a matter of structuring the outgoing and incoming correctly.

- imo the words "Financial Difficulties" were just a POINT SCORING EXERCISE against Nicola.

 

Our Debt is very small if you compare it to (figures from 2013) :-

Arsenal - £98m

Villa - £122m

Everton - £46m

Liverpool - £87m

Man Utd - £366m

Newcastle - £129m

Spurs - £70m

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/apr/18/premier-league-finances-club-by-club

 

If you had no money owing a £1 would make you bankrupt, if you are a miilionaire owing £500,000 wouldn't.

 

The point is not the size of the debt but whether you can manage the debt. Those clubs can,

Edited 30 April, 2014 by Barry Sanchez

[70's Mike]

a thread about nothing

[Matthew Le God]

They could still operate though, City/Chelsea are being bankrollled in a crazy manner, United and Liverpool would still get by, Arsenal probably as they are no nearing the end of paying for their stadiums.

Everton, Spurs,Villa and Newcastle in the long term?

 

The rest? Not a chance.

 

Take £60m to £100m out of any of those clubs you listed and they wouldn't be able to operate this season whilst keeping in FFP rules. I really struggle to see the point you are making, Saints are a Premier League club for that they get huge TV money which more than covers their wage bill. Why is that a flawed business model?

[DuncanRG]

Negotiating a kit deal is hardly revolutionary when we need a new one anyway and comparing us to the Green Bay Packers is laughable and it is naive.

 

It's about negotiating *good* sponsorship deals. If our shirt sponsor next year is Auntie Pam's Tea Room then he's messed it up, if it's Siemens and we get £50m then that's great work and a huge boost for our commercial income. Obviously it will be somewhere in between but there's huge room to improve on the app3 deal, which is worth around £1m a year if I remember correctly.

 

I can see the Green Bay comparisons myself, and I think if it's handled well we could make hay out of it over there. I'm not an expert on US sport, though, and neither are you. You'll never guess who is...

Edited 30 April, 2014 by DuncanRG

[Barry Sanchez]

Take £60m to £100m out of any of those clubs you listed and they wouldn't be able to operate this season whilst keeping in FFP rules. I really struggle to see the point you are making, Saints are a Premier League club for that they get huge TV money which more than covers their wage bill. Why is that a flawed business model?

 

Do you honestly think FFP is a concern at the moment? Do you really?

[Saint86]

It's a strange one. The only possible conclusions that I can draw as to why RK and HH say our financial situation is difficult, is that a) they're preparing fans for some player sales or b) they don't know what they're talking about. B) seems unlikely as Gareth Roberts is on board.

 

Perhaps there is a c) that I've missed.

 

C. Discredit Cortese in PR war that was and still is (based on DM) waging. Also stops clubs trying to screw us over quite so much.

 

Put it this way ladies, if you are in a poor financial position and need to sell, you don't announce that you're poor and about to sell, thus knocking down the fee you can get. (Unless you'r a Labour/Scottish chancellor and you're about to sell some of the nations gold off)

[James]

Negotiating a kit deal is hardly revolutionary when we need a new one anyway and comparing us to the Green Bay Packers is laughable and it is naive.

 

Please elaborate as to why the comparison is laughable. I don't claim to know much about it but you clearly seem to. If you're going to knock down other poster's views then at least bother to give reasons.

[John Boy Saint]

Please elaborate as to why the comparison is laughable. I don't claim to know much about it but you clearly seem to. If you're going to knock down other poster's views then at least bother to give reasons.

Ooooo even I felt the float bob under with that one.

 

Have fun James

[Barry Sanchez]

Please elaborate as to why the comparison is laughable. I don't claim to know much about it but you clearly seem to. If you're going to knock down other poster's views then at least bother to give reasons.

 

Maybe it would be better if Ralph did that but here we go

 

1) The Green Bay Packers are a footballing instituion in American Football.

2) One of the most famous sides.

3) Have won the Super Bowl 4 times.

4) Have some of the best fans in the Country.

5) Have over their history had some of the best players in the game.

6) Have sold out their stadium for years (I mean years).

7) Lambeau Field hold 80,000

8 ) Lambeau Field is a far far more attractive stadium to market.

 

Ralph made a lazy comparison as they are from a small provincial area like us but we are Worlds apart I can only hope Ralph does not compare Football with American Football again as they are very very different.

[Barry Sanchez]

Ooooo even I felt the float bob under with that one.

 

Have fun James

 

I suspect James is another person who had not left Southampton and thinks we are an awful lot bigger than we are actually are or ever going to be, actually James could be Ralph.

[John Boy Saint]

That was very nice of you Barry to ease the newbie with 2 posts into Saintsweb.

[Barry Sanchez]

That was very nice of you Barry to ease the newbie with 2 posts into Saintsweb.

 

2 Blogs John Boy.

[diggers]

Please elaborate as to why the comparison is laughable. I don't claim to know much about it but you clearly seem to. If you're going to knock down other poster's views then at least bother to give reasons.

I think I've commented on this before but to answer your question about the Packers, Americans who follow European football are really only interested in success, I think it's bred into them from an early age, win at all costs.

I live and work in the US and listen to a radio station daily dedicated to "soccer" there are daily phone ins and without fail you get American Chelsea, Liverpool and United fans and now I notice loads of "I'm a Man City Fan" callers, no matter what Saints do, unless we win the PL or at least get in the CL a couple of consecutive seasons then were just not going to be on Americas radar.

(apart from the guy who came up to me at my kids baseball match when he clocked my saints shirt, turned out his relatives are from chandlers Ford and one actually lived the next street to where I was born, small world)

[James]

I suspect James is another person who had not left Southampton and thinks we are an awful lot bigger than we are actually are or ever going to be, actually James could be Ralph.

 

As I said, don't claim to know anything about American football at all, I wasn't suggesting you were wrong I just wanted you to elaborate. I have now been illuminated.

 

Many thanks for the sarcasm.

[Barry Sanchez]

As I said, don't claim to know anything about American football at all, I wasn't suggesting you were wrong I just wanted you to elaborate. I have now been illuminated.

 

Many thanks for the sarcasm.

 

No worries anytime.