Barry Sanchez Posted 29 April, 2014 Share Posted 29 April, 2014 When someone says I believe in a religious context should they actually mean they were taught? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 29 April, 2014 Share Posted 29 April, 2014 I was taught all kinds of things. Half I disbelieved and most of the rest I've forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 29 April, 2014 Share Posted 29 April, 2014 I honestly believe this is your best ever thread Barry. Top marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 29 April, 2014 Share Posted 29 April, 2014 I honestly believe this is your best ever thread Barry. Top marks. Actually I think it has some mileage and to a certain extent I agree...... I also think you could include "politics" (Perhaps not quite as much) as an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 29 April, 2014 Share Posted 29 April, 2014 When someone says I believe in a religious context should they actually mean they were taught? It depends. The majority of believers are indoctrinated into their religion by parents and community. A minority, however, search for a faith that makes sense to them, and then choose it. The former's credo is "I have learned to believe that ..."; the latter's credo is "I choose to believe that ..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 29 April, 2014 Share Posted 29 April, 2014 Winner of Israel's got talent 5 years running - magic section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 29 April, 2014 Share Posted 29 April, 2014 (edited) Winner of Israel's got talent 5 years running - magic section. He made the Arab contestants disappear. Edited 29 April, 2014 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 29 April, 2014 Share Posted 29 April, 2014 It depends. The majority of believers are indoctrinated into their religion by parents and community. A minority, however, search for a faith that makes sense to them, and then choose it. The former's credo is "I have learned to believe that ..."; the latter's credo is "I choose to believe that ..." Ah, but an advocate of Determinism would argue that free will and free choice are illusions, and that the convert’s decision was determined by events beyond his control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Ah, but an advocate of Determinism would argue that free will and free choice are illusions, and that the convert’s decision was determined by events beyond his control Of course if you put a Bible and only that in front of someone they are only going to believe that, the same with the Koran and Torah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Of course if you put a Bible and only that in front of someone they are only going to believe that, the same with the Koran and Torah. Playing devil’s advocate, is someone more likely to be an atheist if his/her parents are atheists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 What about if your dad was god, are you guaranteed to be Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 What about if your dad was god, are you guaranteed to be Jesus? Depends how many kids God had. I don't think the girls could all be Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Playing devil’s advocate, is someone more likely to be an atheist if his/her parents are atheists? People make choices based on their experience of whats available - and much of that experience is handed down from their parents. Parents aren't a determinant but a very strong influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Playing devil’s advocate, is someone more likely to be an atheist if his/her parents are atheists? Probably, that kind of proves the point if they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 People make choices based on their experience of whats available - and much of that experience is handed down from their parents. Parents aren't a determinant but a very strong influence. Hence my point of a Bible, Koran and Torah being available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Hence my point of a Bible, Koran and Torah being available. I was going to write that the effect of parental religious values is stronger in children and young adults than later in life as people gain their own knowledge of the world - but Im not actually sure that true. Theres an odd persistence of values that you learned as a child - even if later you objectively think they don't make logical sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 I was going to write that the effect of parental religious values is stronger in children and young adults than later in life as people gain their own knowledge of the world - but Im not actually sure that true. Theres an odd persistence of values that you learned as a child - even if later you objectively think they don't make logical sense. I read this piece on cults the other day. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/265-who-joins-cults-and-why There are a number of very evangelical churches in the area that come close to this; even use a lot of the same tricks, such as hanging around universities looking for destitute students. The lesson here; a lack of religious/spiritual experience can leave the unwary in a very dangerous position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 I was going to write that the effect of parental religious values is stronger in children and young adults than later in life as people gain their own knowledge of the world - but Im not actually sure that true. Theres an odd persistence of values that you learned as a child - even if later you objectively think they don't make logical sense. So learned behaviour remains even if you know its incorrect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 I read this piece on cults the other day. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/265-who-joins-cults-and-why There are a number of very evangelical churches in the area that come close to this; even use a lot of the same tricks, such as hanging around universities looking for destitute students. The lesson here; a lack of religious/spiritual experience can leave the unwary in a very dangerous position. Churches Pap have been doing that for centuries on a far larger scale in South America, Africa and the Philipines/Indonesia. Its nothing new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Since posting this Barry, this song has been in my head. As punishment, I will share it with you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Churches Pap have been doing that for centuries on a far larger scale in South America, Africa and the Philipines/Indonesia. Its nothing new. Actually, you're half-right. Most of the recent rapid growth churches are new. They modeled themselves after terrorist organisations by adopting cell structures. Most church experiences happen outside the church itself. One of the biggest movements of this type did begin in South America though; just happened 20 years ago instead of centuries ago. You seem interested in the spiritual, Bazzington. I know some pastors. Would you like me to put you in touch with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 If we examine this issue in the round to include not only nurture but nature as well, then not only do parents provide children with much of their early years learning environment, they are also responsible for their kids' genetic inheritance, which includes the DNA instructions for creating the neural networks in their brains. Perhaps some people’s brains are genetically predisposed to ‘believe’ more than others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 You seem interested in the spiritual, Bazzington. I know some pastors. Would you like me to put you in touch with them? What a cracking idea. We need to find a suitable religion for Bazza. I'll make pitch for Buddhism - all that inner contemplation, meditation and humbleness could be just what Saintweb is after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 What a cracking idea. We need to find a suitable religion for Bazza. I'll make pitch for Buddhism - all that inner contemplation, meditation and humbleness could be just what Saintweb is after. I've got people in mind. They do alpha courses and encounters and suchlike. Barry will be speaking in tongues and screaming demons out of himself within months. They are very big on belief. Charismatic Christian outfit. It would be an interesting experiment though. Would go some way to answering Barry's questions about the origins of belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 (edited) Perhaps some people’s brains are genetically predisposed to ‘believe’ more than others? I think thats true. A percentage of the population seems more predisposed to some kind of higher force or guidance than others - almost regardless of what it is. Also when people are young they see themselves as a single entity - but as they age the mind /spirit / soul / whatever seems to remain young whilst the body starts to fall apart. That can lead to a feeling of being a perpetual life force occupying a mortal body and all the God / lizard / angel imaginations / attempted explanations that go with that. Edited 30 April, 2014 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 I've got people in mind. Barry will be speaking in tongues and screaming demons out of himself within months. Bazza already speaks in strange and often unintelligible tongues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Bazza already speaks in strange and often unintelligible tongues. Worse than that, he also listens to Rick Astley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Bazza already speaks in strange and often unintelligible tongues. The man was cryogenically frozen in the late 1980s. All his cultural references are from there. Cut him some slack, FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Actually, you're half-right. Most of the recent rapid growth churches are new. They modeled themselves after terrorist organisations by adopting cell structures. Most church experiences happen outside the church itself. One of the biggest movements of this type did begin in South America though; just happened 20 years ago instead of centuries ago. You seem interested in the spiritual, Bazzington. I know some pastors. Would you like me to put you in touch with them? Why am I half right? I am a lapsed atheist, I have no faith in God but having no faith in him means there is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Why am I half right? I am a lapsed atheist, I have no faith in God but having no faith in him means there is one. You're half wrong because cellular church growth strategies haven't been happening for centuries. The missionaries in South America took a more (ahem) orthodox path. Would you like me to sort you out if with an invite to the church? They do a full service, from worship to gay conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 You're half wrong because cellular church growth strategies haven't been happening for centuries. The missionaries in South America took a more (ahem) orthodox path. Would you like me to sort you out if with an invite to the church? They do a full service, from worship to gay conversion. I think you are confusing the established Church with (you dont actually say) cults, in fact Pap what are you (as usual) saying? What rapid growth of new religion is happening in South America? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 I think you are confusing the established Church with (you dont actually say) cults, in fact Pap what are you (as usual) saying? What rapid growth of new religion is happening in South America? I started out talking about local evangelical churches. I'm suggesting you go to one to explore your ideas on belief. At least one of them adopted the G12 model for a time, which was a rapid religious growth movement that started out in Bogota, Colombia. You may call it a cult. I couldn't possibly comment. Still, I think it might be a good jumping on point for your burgeoning interest in belief. FWIW, I don't actually think they'll "get ya", but you will come into contact with lots of born-agains. It's a solid area for your studies that I think you should explore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Probably should stay away from prophets called Jones, and Guyana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 I started out talking about local evangelical churches. I'm suggesting you go to one to explore your ideas on belief. At least one of them adopted the G12 model for a time, which was a rapid religious growth movement that started out in Bogota, Colombia. You may call it a cult. I couldn't possibly comment. Still, I think it might be a good jumping on point for your burgeoning interest in belief. FWIW, I don't actually think they'll "get ya", but you will come into contact with lots of born-agains. It's a solid area for your studies that I think you should explore. Pap I am sorry but you have not answerd anything and please please please dont presume, what Churches? Whey missions? Were breakaways from the established Church? You have just made a statement about G12 but what do you know abouy it, along with New Frontiers from the States they are in effect a cult and will never make serious inroads to the "Established Church". Pap trust me I have met enough persons of faith. Burgeoning interest in faith, you tickle me with your attitude, would God like you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 G12 Pap for your information is not a Church is the sense most would know it, and if you think if would ever take the lead over the Catholic Church in Latin America I suggest you very much mistaken, if I may say so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 G12 Pap for your information is not a Church is the sense most would know it, and if you think if would ever take the lead over the Catholic Church in Latin America I suggest you very much mistaken, if I may say so. Tell us more, Barry. We'll give you an hour to Google your shít together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Tell us more, Barry. We'll give you an hour to Google your shít together. Pap you never herard of G12 until you did your usual of copy and pasted it, just check what you have written compared to the wiki version:lol: You do it all the time, I see others may do as before today the only G you had was the G4 cd in your player. Be humble Pap, admit you copied and pasted your effort there and all shall be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Probably should stay away from prophets called Jones, and Guyana. It’s your lucky day, mums and dads, boys and girls – free cyanide shakes, courtesy of Rev. Jim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Pap you never herard of G12 until you did your usual of copy and pasted it, just check what you have written compared to the wiki version:lol: You do it all the time, I see others may do as before today the only G you had was the G4 cd in your player. Be humble Pap, admit you copied and pasted your effort there and all shall be good. Actually Bazza, I spent several years working for a firm in which all the senior management belonged to a G12 church. They used the business as a trojan horse for recruiting into their religious organisation. I ended up being the person people went to whenever a conversion attempt was made. They got no-one during my tenure, something I'm very proud of. You're the chap who needs to demonstrate a bit of humility in this instance, mucker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Actually, you're half-right. Most of the recent rapid growth churches are new. They modeled themselves after terrorist organisations by adopting cell structures. Most church experiences happen outside the church itself. One of the biggest movements of this type did begin in South America though; just happened 20 years ago instead of centuries ago. You seem interested in the spiritual, Bazzington. I know some pastors. Would you like me to put you in touch with them? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G12_Vision http://www.gotquestions.org/g12-vision.html Some very close wording there Pap? Your conspracy ariel would be making the most enormous sounds now dont you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G12_Vision Brilliant. Submitting a page that I personally contributed to as proof that I'm wiki'ing the lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Actually Bazza, I spent several years working for a firm in which all the senior management belonged to a G12 church. They used the business as a trojan horse for recruiting into their religious organisation. I ended up being the person people went to whenever a conversion attempt was made. They got no-one during my tenure, something I'm very proud of. You're the chap who needs to demonstrate a bit of humility in this instance, mucker. Pap you are saying nothing new here and nothing that has not been done before, and if you think their numbers over a 20 year period is rapid growth I suggest you need to look elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Pap you are saying nothing new here and nothing that has not been done before, and if you think their numbers over a 20 year period is rapid growth I suggest you need to look elsewhere. Lack of apology (and class) noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Brilliant. Submitting a page that I personally contributed to as proof that I'm wiki'ing the lot Your contribution is very close to some of that dont you think? Experience has taught me to follow your contributions after the World War II tank event, the funniest thread I may add ever on a forum I have read, you were sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Half right Oh Pap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Your contribution is very close to some of that dont you think? Experience has taught me to follow your contributions after the World War II tank event, the funniest thread I may add ever on a forum I have read, you were sweet. Once again Barry, you are the victim of your own lack of comprehension. Let's address a few points that you seem to have missed. 1) I was involved in the content of the wiki page you linked. 2) I have first hand experience with members of G12 churches 3) I've prevented many people from joining them And finally... 4) You could be on this site for another 100 years and never produce a thread as decent as the "Did Britain Enter World War II too soon" thread (for that was what it was about). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 30 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 30 April, 2014 You must be a Roman Catholic as that tank thread was equivalent to self flagellation:lol: You dont deny what you have written on the (wiki page I believe you dont worry) and on this one is remarkably similar? You having first hand experience of G12 (I believe you) does not make you correct does it concering rapid growth? When did you write this piece of public alarm? This is superb I should start some more threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nta786 Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 I can fly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Seems like a fool proof strategy to me, Barry. No, actually, delete that. Seems like a good strategy to me, Barry. So, just to make sure I’ve got this right, I write something, post it on Wiki, then post it on here, then if someone says I’m talking b0llocks, I cut and paste the bit I previously posted on Wiki as proof that I’m not talking b0llocks after all. That’s brilliant, why didn’t I think of that. Hat’s off to you, pap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 April, 2014 Share Posted 30 April, 2014 Hmm, and just a few posts ago, you were calling me to admit I'd made it all up. Didn't actually write anything on that page; just pulled together disparate sources and links (there was nowt critical on it before I started). All of this happened between 2006-2007. In something of a small victory, found out that the church in question eventually ended up dropping their G12 affiliation. Personally, I think it's more to do with not having to produce a kickback to Colombia, but I'm sure they framed it all in altruistic language. I honestly don't know whether I've had any impact beyond the people I know I prevented from joining ( unfailingly, all the targeted recruits were having short-term difficulties of some kind ). Instead of starting more threads, why not employ your Google'd knowledge to tell me which other Church movements have grown quicker than G12 in its heyday. You're the expert and all that. I know of one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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