"Glass ceiling and summer budget"

[Alain Perrin]

I disagree that massive investment is needed to achieve Top 4, Everton have proved that. That said, clearly millions will make a difference and realistically 3 of the 4 places are in the bag for Oligarchs and "big" clubs. Although Financial Fair Play is meant to tackle that to some extent, it remains to be seen how effective it is.

 

I have three thoughts:

 

- On the budget: I am glad that no budget is set - if it's set now and Luke Shaw marches into Poch's office and demands to go, or we get an injury in the remaining 4 games, what's the point of having a fixed budget? If and when it is set we shouldn't talk about it as it gives buying / selling clubs an unnecessary advantage.

 

- On the journey: The point of leadership is to set a vision. If we come out tomorrow and say "Our new journey is mid-table obscurity" then we can kiss goodbye to a number of our first team players who are capable above that. Given what I've read I don't think that's an approach that Kruger will take - regardless of how much money is available (hence his Greenbay Packers analogy.

 

- Lots of people who on this board are ****s.

[david in sweden]

It seems the manager has not been told yet what sort of summer budget he can expect. I find that a little odd myself. And have we as the article hints at - "hit our glass ceiling"? To push on from this excellent season is going to take a hefty outlay, so have we peaked? So many questions and an interesting summer awaits.

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/11158610.Poch__I_don_t_know_a_budget_for_next_season/?ref=var_0

 

I'm sure a lot of this is depending on MP's future......

. if I were negotiating with him for a new contarct, I'd tell him how much he had to spend for next season, but if the talks genuinely haven't progressed that far......it still open to conjecture.

 

secondly....it must also depend on the " futures " of Osvaldo and Ramirez. To be fair, even thinking positively ....it would be hard to speak more than two sentences in praise of either of them.

 

If they both left... it would loosen up the budget strings a bit, especially when you consider the size of their salaries. It's not just the size of the fee, but the long term commitment to a big earner.

Edited 19 April, 2014 by david in sweden

[Window Cleaner]

Strange thread, everybody knows what our transfer budget for next season is: 35 million, didn't an ITK poster tell us so ??? :rolleyes: Mauricio should read the forum if he wants to know stuff.

[Saint_clark]

Probably, but a few finishes of 8th every season would be success in my eyes.

 

"A few"? Or "Every season"? Bit of a difference.

To be honest if we're settling for mid table I probably won't renew beyond next season, far too expensive now. Only reason I'm renewing this season is on faith that they're planning to keep all our players and push on...

[Dalek2003]

I can't see England winning the World Cup and I am happy that they go to the finals. I still support them like I support Saints who have very little prospect of finishing in the top 6.

 

If you want 'glory' support 'PLASTIC' team.

[dronskisaint]

I can't see England winning the World Cup and I am happy that they go to the finals. I still support them like I support Saints who have very little prospect of finishing in the top 6.

 

If you want 'glory' support 'PLASTIC' team.

 

A good point, well made! I've never supported Saints because I thought they were likely to win trophies - the successes we've had have probably tasted much sweeter because of that.

[CB Fry]

"A few"? Or "Every season"? Bit of a difference.

To be honest if we're settling for mid table I probably won't renew beyond next season, far too expensive now. Only reason I'm renewing this season is on faith that they're planning to keep all our players and push on...

 

You are setting yourself up for disappointment then.

 

8th every season for us would be pretty amazing. You seem to be suggesting that eighth every season is now a given for us and it's just a case of whether or not we decide to invest to finish sixth or fourth instead.

 

In the next decade we have a few finishes lower than eighth ahead of us. Seriously, get used to it.

[Saint_clark]

You are setting yourself up for disappointment then.

 

8th every season for us would be pretty amazing. You seem to be suggesting that eighth every season is now a given for us and it's just a case of whether or not we decide to invest to finish sixth or fourth instead.

 

In the next decade we have a few finishes lower than eighth ahead of us. Seriously, get used to it.

 

Not suggesting that at all, but for me I cannot afford to shell out the better part of a grand to watch a season where nothing out of the ordinary is going to happen.

[CB Fry]

Not suggesting that at all, but for me I cannot afford to shell out the better part of a grand to watch a season where nothing out of the ordinary is going to happen.

 

So another season like this - finishing top eight two seasons in a row for the first time in 30 odd years - would not be out of the ordinary.

 

Fair enough.

[Whitey Grandad]

So another season like this - finishing top eight two seasons in a row for the first time in 30 odd years - would not be out of the ordinary.

 

Fair enough.

 

As seasons go... First half good, second half not so good.

[DuncanRG]

The days of a club like Southampton finishing second are, sadly, gone. 8th is very good. Maybe 6th at a squeeze but top four it just won't happen without investment over and above what has already been delivered. A sad fact of life that while foreign governments and dodgy oligarchs continue to own our football clubs the playing fields have never been so unlevel.

 

Yeah I agree, though sugar daddy clubs can be beaten on occasion, as we might see with Liverpool this year. I only ask because Barry said Everton don't have a glass ceiling and backed it up with a few historic finishes above Man Utd, the last of which was probably not far off the year we came second. Circumstances change, and Everton are now limited like most clubs.

 

Anything could happen, though. If teams like Liverpool continue to succeed with native youth over expensively assembled foreign squads, the rest will catch on. The rich clubs can and have poured more into their academies so could maintain their grip, but we could compete with them in a way we can't at the moment, when pure squad spending is the way to win. Money will continue to rule and we'll still have moneybags foreign teams but I think the game is starting to lean that way a little.

Edited 19 April, 2014 by DuncanRG

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Not suggesting that at all, but for me I cannot afford to shell out the better part of a grand to watch a season where nothing out of the ordinary is going to happen.

 

But 8th is as good as it is probably going to get - which is my point about the glass ceiling. Yes we might surpass that and hit 6th with good luck, but the days (early 1980s) when we could seriously compete with the really big guns have gone forever. People are quoting Everton and they have a point, but in my book Everton have always been a top 6 or thereabouts club.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Another sobering thought is how hard it is to hold onto our best players. In the old days the likes of Paine, Channon, Davies were held onto but now as soon as a player shines in the academy the jungle drums start beating at Stamford Bridge or Highbury. This summer it really will be interesting to see if we can hold onto Shaw.

[Dig Dig]

I'm sure the 30K the club will make from your books over the next 10 years will help retain any player we want Duncan.

[Barry Sanchez]

Not suggesting that at all, but for me I cannot afford to shell out the better part of a grand to watch a season where nothing out of the ordinary is going to happen.

 

You are going to be disappointed then mate, this as good as it gets, those statements made by the club and Cortese were naive, stupid and lies, we will never get into the top 4 unless we do a Cty, there are other more attractive clubs to do that with so no it wll never happen, the ceiling has been reached, this is it.

[Saint_clark]

But 8th is as good as it is probably going to get - which is my point about the glass ceiling. Yes we might surpass that and hit 6th with good luck, but the days (early 1980s) when we could seriously compete with the really big guns have gone forever. People are quoting Everton and they have a point, but in my book Everton have always been a top 6 or thereabouts club.

 

Maybe it is the best it's going to get, but it's a stretch for me to afford a season ticket. If we're not going anywhere then I'd rather save the money and watch streams. Not my fault - I'm just not earning enough to afford it really.

[Barry Sanchez]

Everton are a massive club,its only because they are next door to the 2nd largest club in England and one also in the top 10 in the World that they get over looked.

[9-3]

Thinks this as good as it gets.

We cant compete with 32000 stadia.

Unless Kat and Ralph have other ideas.

[sotonist]

Everton are a massive club,its only because they are next door to the 2nd largest club in England and one also in the top 10 in the World that they get over looked.

 

or because they were **** for a very long time like Villa.

[Wade Garrett]

Who wouldn't be happy with 8th every season?

[Frank's cousin]

As usual, an interminable ramble missing the point and arguing against things people haven't said anyway. Well done.

 

Of course if everything fell our way, no players left and we unearthed two more gems then we might finish sixth or even fourth, one season, once. But is is spectacularly unlikely.

What is tiresome on this forum are the petulant demands for "investment" and countless club statements backing this up; the childish grizzles that link any player leaving being an outrage; and the supreme arrogance that finishing eighth in the Premier League is now somehow beneath us, or boring or not worth dreaming about.

 

The sneering dismissal of eighth place league finishes (achieved all of once in our last twenty odd seasons) by the likes of you is frankly not the wide - eyed innocent dreaming you are making it out to be. That attitude, and the toddler - tantrums that will greet the opening of the transfer window, represents most that is wrong with the Sky Sports era dinlow football fan.

 

I hope to Saints fly again next season. Brilliant young players, a couple of decent additions, and, yes, a departure or two we may need to weather. But we are set fair to have another excellent season - 8th again would be brilliant - and try and get to Wembley too. That's optimism. Try it sometime.

 

 

As usual, a typical stalking interminable ramble missing the point and arguing against things people haven't said anyway... Not well done, actually quite sad that you simply refuse to accept others POV s and respond with the cynical, sneering and patronizing **** poor prose of a typical pseud...

 

What is most tiresome is your inability to see the point. No one is 'demanding' investment, and ther is Nothing wrong with being disappointed with a system that has closed the door on a repeat of '84. You seem to think that only you and your select few cynics understand the practical difficulties and improbable nature of anything but 8th... EVERYONE understands that, but thankfully not all fans have lost the dreamer mentality that keeps clubs attracting new fans and holds on to the old.... In a sport wher the best the majority can ever hope for is to be patronised as a great mid table side.... Whilst a few hold the monopoly on success. You sneer all you like, but thankfully for most fans, the dreams and aspirations are not dulled by the seemingly impossible. If anything it's the the refusal to accet the glass ceiling that means perpetual lower league clubs still get just about enough through the gate to keep them going.

 

'sneering dismissal of 8th' - please, and you have the cheek to suggest I criticise what has not been said... 8th is great, it represents great progress, and what is more important is it's been done with some stylish play and with a good amount of homegrown youth thrown in. I simply do not see how wanting/ hoping that it's not just a flash in the pan and that we can continue to build and progress - if we can keep the talent- is 'arrogant' or anything to do with the Sky mentality... If supporting is only about the cultural camaraderie for you and nothing more, that's your prerogative, glad you are happy. For others it's always included an element that it's also a sporting competition, winning and success not just to 'give you a patronising buzz at work on a Monday'', but about seeing progress, growth and improvement.... Which is in itself 'success.

 

You need to stop being such a patronizing cock - seriously, your'll get a decent mates.

[david in sweden]

if this thread is about buying in top quality players and the final league position we might be able to achieve, then why not look back to those 27 seasons when we were previously in the top division.

 

Now I can hear groans from those people who just hate "stats." and think they have no meaning at all. (Just try telling that to Man U and Liverpool fans.....they love their history).

 

After spending 27 consecutive seasons in the top flight... we became the 8th most successful club of all time. Arsenal, incidentally have NEVER been relegated from the top level.

 

when we got back up to the then First Division (1978/9 it took time to settle and our finishing positions were; 14th, 8th,6th, 7th,12th and 2nd best ever.

.

....all this during the time that Lawrie McMenemy was buying in English internationals every season and we had Peter Shilton in goal during that time.(In McMenemy's final season we were 5th.)

 

Chris Nicholl did his best to emulate L. Mc. but we only managed .....14th, 12th, 12th, 13th, 7th and 14th in his reign as manager.

 

Around this time (1992/3)...Div.1 was (for some inexplicable reason) renamed Premier League (which was the kiss of death for us) as we only managed to stay up (with help of one Matthew Le Tissier)

and in the following seasons finished; 18th, 18th, 10th, 17th, 16th, 12th, 17th, 15th.

 

Things looked up a bit around the Millennium and we ended up 10th, 11th,....wait for it ....8th in 2002-03. After which things went from bad to worse again.

 

so you see, after our recent whirlwind return, and survival last season ... 8th really is quite a respectable finish, although obviously NOT good enough for some contributors it shows real progress.

 

Some of you will be expecting us to challenge for the League title next year whilst still regularly " blooding " teenagers from the Academy, but it will I fear ...take a bit longer than that.

 

My own surmising is that we need to invest in AT LEAST one good striker (even two).....Retain the present midfielders, get some real cover at CB ...and get a top-rated goalie to challenge / back-up Boruc.

 

With better luck .....and some good refereeing .... we just might just make a Euro spot next season. Beyond that is Dreamland, I fear...at least in the near future anyway.

Edited 20 April, 2014 by david in sweden

[Barry Sanchez]

if this thread is about buying in top quality players and the final league position we might be able to achieve, then why not look back to those 27 seasons when we were previously in the top division.

 

Now I can hear groans from those people who just hate "stats." and think they have no meaning at all. (Just try telling that to Man U and Liverpool fans.....they love their history).

 

After spending 27 consecutive seasons in the top flight... we became the 8th most successful club of all time. Arsenal, incidentally have NEVER been relegated from the top level.

 

when we got back up to the then First Division (1978/9 it took time to settle and our finishing positions were; 14th, 8th,6th, 7th,12th and 2nd best ever.

.

....all this during the time that Lawrie McMenemy was buying in English internationals every season and we had Peter Shilton in goal during that time.(In McMenemy's final season we were 5th.)

 

Chris Nicholl did his best to emulate L. Mc. but we only managed .....14th, 12th, 12th, 13th, 7th and 14th in his reign as manager.

 

Around this time (1992/3)...Div.1 was (for some inexplicable reason) renamed Premier League (which was the kiss of death for us) as we only managed to stay up (with help of one Matthew Le Tissier)

and in the following seasons finished; 18th, 18th, 10th, 17th, 16th, 12th, 17th, 15th.

 

Things looked up a bit around the Millennium and we ended up 10th, 11th,....wait for it ....8th in 2002-03. After which things went from bad to worse again.

 

so you see, after our recent whirlwind return, and survival last season ... 8th really is quite a respectable finish, although obviously NOT good enough for some contributors it shows real progress.

 

Some of you will be expecting us to challenge for the League title next year whilst still regularly " blooding " teenagers from the Academy, but it will I fear ...take a bit longer than that.

 

My own surmising is that we need to invest in AT LEAST one good striker (even two).....Retain the present midfielders, get some real cover at CB ...and get a top-rated goalie to challenge / back-up Boruc.

 

With better luck .....and some good refereeing .... we just might just make a Euro spot next season. Beyond that is Dreamland, I fear...at least in the near future anyway.

 

Who thinks finishing 8th is poor? Its as good as its going to get, thats the point.

[Bearsy]

Not for me, I still dream of 7th

[Barry Sanchez]

As usual, a typical stalking interminable ramble missing the point and arguing against things people haven't said anyway... Not well done, actually quite sad that you simply refuse to accept others POV s and respond with the cynical, sneering and patronizing **** poor prose of a typical pseud...

 

What is most tiresome is your inability to see the point. No one is 'demanding' investment, and ther is Nothing wrong with being disappointed with a system that has closed the door on a repeat of '84. You seem to think that only you and your select few cynics understand the practical difficulties and improbable nature of anything but 8th... EVERYONE understands that, but thankfully not all fans have lost the dreamer mentality that keeps clubs attracting new fans and holds on to the old.... In a sport wher the best the majority can ever hope for is to be patronised as a great mid table side.... Whilst a few hold the monopoly on success. You sneer all you like, but thankfully for most fans, the dreams and aspirations are not dulled by the seemingly impossible. If anything it's the the refusal to accet the glass ceiling that means perpetual lower league clubs still get just about enough through the gate to keep them going.

 

'sneering dismissal of 8th' - please, and you have the cheek to suggest I criticise what has not been said... 8th is great, it represents great progress, and what is more important is it's been done with some stylish play and with a good amount of homegrown youth thrown in. I simply do not see how wanting/ hoping that it's not just a flash in the pan and that we can continue to build and progress - if we can keep the talent- is 'arrogant' or anything to do with the Sky mentality... If supporting is only about the cultural camaraderie for you and nothing more, that's your prerogative, glad you are happy. For others it's always included an element that it's also a sporting competition, winning and success not just to 'give you a patronising buzz at work on a Monday'', but about seeing progress, growth and improvement.... Which is in itself 'success.

 

You need to stop being such a patronizing cock - seriously, your'll get a decent mates.

 

 

Not sneering at all, obvious reality, shall I call you an unrealistic dreamer now as opposed to a clapper? It appears the realistic ones have been correct all along doesn't it though? Not that it was exactly difficult to predict that at all.

[Kingsland Red]

With regards to FF's 'glass ceiling' ,one thing that I understand Ralph Krueger etc are attempting is to make us The Club in the south -

Firstly by extending the stadium capacity; and secondly by marketing the club to a wider geographical audience.

Except the London clubs, our nearest competitors are Cardiff or Villa, the rest of the south and south west is ours to get on the bus.

[CB Fry]

With regards to FF's 'glass ceiling' ,one thing that I understand Ralph Krueger etc are attempting is to make us The Club in the south -

Firstly by extending the stadium capacity; and secondly by marketing the club to a wider geographical audience.

Except the London clubs, our nearest competitors are Cardiff or Villa, the rest of the south and south west is ours to get on the bus.

 

Nice to see this get an airing again. Not sure I've seen Krueger say any like this for a start.

 

And secondly, why on earth are people from Bristol or Swindon or Plymouth going to start supporting Saints?

 

I bet their are plenty of, say, Manchester United and Liverpool fans in all those cities.

 

It's kinda like a vague geographical closeness is pretty irrelevant in deciding which club to support.

[DuncanRG]

Important point which doesn't get enough airing is that we don't know how much money the Liebherrs have or are willing to spend, and never have since they took over. All we know is what they've spent in the past, plus bits and pieces from quotes which don't say anything clear. They could shell out £100m in the summer for all we know, or they could not spend a penny.

[Window Cleaner]

Important point which doesn't get enough airing is that we don't know how much money the Liebherrs have or are willing to spend, and never have since they took over. All we know is what they've spent in the past, plus bits and pieces from quotes which don't say anything clear. They could shell out £100m in the summer for all we know, or they could not spend a penny.

 

 

No arguement with the content except that it's "the Liebherr" and not the Liebherrs. There is only 1.

[DuncanRG]

Aye but there was another.

[david in sweden]

Who thinks finishing 8th is poor? Its as good as its going to get, thats the point.

 

I agree, but I read quite a lot of threads (without replying to them) but it does seem that more than a few contributors consider that failing to get top 4th -5th place is some sort of failure.

 

Try telling that to Norwich, Sunderland or Fulham fans. They think that 40 points and 17th spot is Nirvana.

[Frank's cousin]

I agree, but I read quite a lot of threads (without replying to them) but it does seem that more than a few contributors consider that failing to get top 4th -5th place is some sort of failure.

 

Try telling that to Norwich, Sunderland or Fulham fans. They think that 40 points and 17th spot is Nirvana.

 

Sorry David, that is wrong - no one is saying that not getting to 4th or 5 the is failure. It's about not even bothering to try and hit those heights which is failure in my eyes. The sad fact is a many fans do now accept survival as good success... Please tell me what is the point of playing competitive sport if you accept survival as a great result?

 

We we aver become conditioned by the media and SKY in to assuming there is no point in hoping for anything beyond the being the best of those teams for whom survival is seen as the first priority.... That sort of negative mentality is ****, no matter what someone says about realism, expectation or possibility. The right mental approach consistently must be worth 12 points on its own... It's also incredibly fricken sad that the WUMs on here seem obsessed with with belittling and sneering at one of the dude mental aspects of being a fan - the hopes and dreams of aspiration and ambition which are NOT determined purely by cynicism/probability.

 

...your final sentence says it all... But it's only natural that if you have a crap season, survival is better than relegation....

[CB Fry]

Sorry David, that is wrong - no one is saying that not getting to 4th or 5 the is failure. It's about not even bothering to try and hit those heights which is failure in my eyes. The sad fact is a many fans do now accept survival as good success... Please tell me what is the point of playing competitive sport if you accept survival as a great result?

 

We we aver become conditioned by the media and SKY in to assuming there is no point in hoping for anything beyond the being the best of those teams for whom survival is seen as the first priority.... That sort of negative mentality is ****, no matter what someone says about realism, expectation or possibility. The right mental approach consistently must be worth 12 points on its own... It's also incredibly fricken sad that the WUMs on here seem obsessed with with belittling and sneering at one of the dude mental aspects of being a fan - the hopes and dreams of aspiration and ambition which are NOT determined purely by cynicism/probability.

 

...your final sentence says it all... But it's only natural that if you have a crap season, survival is better than relegation....

 

So why do you mainly dribble on about merely Champions league qualification, rather than winning the Champions League outright every season for the next decade?

 

Or, just like everyone else, you apply your own judgement about what is actually possible. But of course, wise old Franko is right - fourth - and everyone else who dares to enjoy the idea of finishing eighth and going for a cup - is "frickin sad" or something.

 

Dream what you like Franko, just stop telling everyone else what to think.

[Pastor Patrón]

Try telling that to Norwich, Sunderland or Fulham fans. They think that 40 points and 17th spot is Nirvana.

 

Yes but there's the small issue of our first 11 being borderline Champions League standard and there's being complete sh#te. What a horrible burden for our club to carry.

[Frank's cousin]

So why do you mainly dribble on about merely Champions league qualification, rather than winning the Champions League outright every season for the next decade?

 

Or, just like everyone else, you apply your own judgement about what is actually possible. But of course, wise old Franko is right - fourth - and everyone else who dares to enjoy the idea of finishing eighth and going for a cup - is "frickin sad" or something.

 

Dream what you like Franko, just stop telling everyone else what to think.

 

CB - I do get the point you are trying to make, and I can appreciate why you are making it. But you are missing mine. You are right in that 'mere' CL qualification seems at odds with a philosophy, dreamer or otherwise, of true or ultimate success. But as I have stressed in all previous posts, it's about progress. If we finish 8th this season that is good progress over last... Which means 7th next season or better to continue in that vein. That is what we should be aiming for at ten every least or what is truest the point? Is the old Olympian spirit of the loser of just taking part in the prem enough for you? Serious question. Sorry but it's not what I want to see. Sure I will most likely end up disappointed, as our desirables are sold by a board that seem at best naive... And we find our 'natural struggling place' once again... But I would rather be fecked off and disappointed in that, than have the mentality that says it's the best we can hope for. That sort of defeatist attitude is to me all that is wrong with the 'Sky' era mentality.

[Whitey Grandad]

At least we're all looking up instead of down.

[Barry Sanchez]

CB - I do get the point you are trying to make' date=' and I can appreciate why you are making it. But you are missing mine. You are right in that 'mere' CL qualification seems at odds with a philosophy, dreamer or otherwise, of true or ultimate success. But as I have stressed in all previous posts, it's about progress. If we finish 8th this season that is good progress over last... Which means 7th next season or better to continue in that vein. That is what we should be aiming for at ten every least or what is truest the point? Is the old Olympian spirit of the loser of just taking part in the prem enough for you? Serious question. Sorry but it's not what I want to see. Sure I will most likely end up disappointed, as our desirables are sold by a board that seem at best naive... And we find our 'natural struggling place' once again... But I would rather be fecked off and disappointed in that, than have the mentality that says it's the best we can hope for. That sort of defeatist attitude is to me all that is wrong with the 'Sky' era mentality.[/quote']

 

 

Wind your neck in with delusion, we have always bee this way and will continue.

[Frank's cousin]

Wind your neck in with delusion, we have always bee this way and will continue.

 

 

No Barry or Dune or whatever alter ego you are Wumming us with this week, you see you just illustrate how much you simply don't get it with that post... Or wind up, whatever.. Suggesting an element of stupidity that is most amusing. It's the fact that historically it has always NOT been that way ... Think Forest, think'84 and you realise that it's only the Sky Prem years in which we have become conditioned into believing nothing better than mid table is possible. Well you go **** off and be happy with your acceptance of mediocrity if you want. Some of us are happy to see a more positive attitude, whatever the outcome. Sadly, I suspect the current board will satisfy your low expectations more readily than mine... Despite the REAL potential of this squad if augmented by some modest investment and a real desire to progress.

[Saint_Tony]

It's not a case of being happy with 8th. I'm content with it rather than happy, would much rather be higher up.It's just that many of us are realistic enough to accept that this might be as good as it gets. With all the rumours of players and the manager leaving, we might well have hit our glass ceiling. Or will we keep hold of our players and invest heavily in the summer? Doubtful

[hypochondriac]

It's not a case of being happy with 8th. I'm content with it rather than happy, would much rather be higher up.It's just that many of us are realistic enough to accept that this might be as good as it gets. With all the rumours of players and the manager leaving, we might well have hit our glass ceiling. Or will we keep hold of our players and invest heavily in the summer? Doubtful

 

Yep. I said in January we should enjoy this whilst we can because this is probably as good as it gets.

[Barry the Badger]

I reckon I'd get more enjoyment out of a relegation battle.

[CB Fry]

CB - I do get the point you are trying to make' date=' and I can appreciate why you are making it. But you are missing mine. You are right in that 'mere' CL qualification seems at odds with a philosophy, dreamer or otherwise, of true or ultimate success. But as I have stressed in all previous posts, it's about progress. If we finish 8th this season that is good progress over last... Which means 7th next season or better to continue in that vein. That is what we should be aiming for at ten every least or what is truest the point? Is the old Olympian spirit of the loser of just taking part in the prem enough for you? Serious question. Sorry but it's not what I want to see. Sure I will most likely end up disappointed, as our desirables are sold by a board that seem at best naive... And we find our 'natural struggling place' once again... But I would rather be fecked off and disappointed in that, than have the mentality that says it's the best we can hope for. That sort of defeatist attitude is to me all that is wrong with the 'Sky' era mentality.[/quote']

 

The fundamental point Frank is next season if you want to see us finish 6th then failures become unacceptable. This weekend's failure: unacceptable. Last week's defeat: unacceptable. Even a capitulation to Man City the week before: unacceptable.

 

You want a sixth place finish? That's 6, 7, 8 more wins than this season. Everton, this season, have lost HALF the games we have. Half.

 

So you want the dream. Fine. No more fu cking about then. Win, win, win, win. Wins in August. Wins in November. Wins in January. Constant wins all season.

 

Let's see next season if we start slowly what your reaction is. Will it be a) this is unacceptable, we are supposed to be achieving the dream of sixth where failure is no longer an option.

 

Or, perchance, will it be b) "let's not be impatient, lets see what happens, some people are so unreasonable and unrealistic expecting us to win every game". You know Frank, the kind of thing you have been saying after every defeat on this forum for more than a decade.

 

I reckon, somehow, it will be b). Every single time. Making your rambling about ambition totally pointless, because you're pretty much the first person to accept a defeat every time it happens.

[hypochondriac]

I reckon I'd get more enjoyment out of a relegation battle.

 

Would be nice to have something to play for as the season draws to a close, be that European football, cups, relegation etc.

[Turkish]

No Barry or Dune or whatever alter ego you are Wumming us with this week' date=' you see you just illustrate how much you simply don't get it with that post... Or wind up, whatever.. Suggesting an element of stupidity that is most amusing. It's the fact that historically it has always NOT been that way ... Think Forest, think'84 and you realise that it's only the Sky Prem years in which we have become conditioned into believing nothing better than mid table is possible. Well you go **** off and be happy with your acceptance of mediocrity if you want. Some of us are happy to see a more positive attitude, whatever the outcome. Sadly, I suspect the current board will satisfy your low expectations more readily than mine... Despite the REAL potential of this squad if augmented by some modest investment and a real desire to progress.[/quote']

 

Please explain how our ambitions as a club are different under the new board than as under the old board and how those of us with low expectations, such as finishing consistently in the top half of the table, which we've only ever achieved once in our history, will be satisfied but you won't be.

[70's Mike]

Please explain how our ambitions as a club are different under the new board than as under the old board and how those of us with low expectations, such as finishing consistently in the top half of the table, which we've only ever achieved once in our history, will be satisfied but you won't be.

 

my only concern for the future was our new chairman's statement which basically said "to achieve our maximum potential" IMO without a massive cash boost we have achieved that already and should prepare for mid table at best in the future

[Turkish]

my only concern for the future was our new chairman's statement which basically said "to achieve our maximum potential" IMO without a massive cash boost we have achieved that already and should prepare for mid table at best in the future

 

There is a saying in business 'under promise over deliver' we've had many clubs claiming they were aiming for the champions league and ended up being relegated and struggling in the leagues below. Our glorious ex CEO would love to run his mouth off about what we were going to do and everyone lauded his ambition and drive because he told them what they wanted to hear, but ultimately didn't or wasn't allowed to stick around to see it through. The fact of the matter was though that he could say what he wanted, it wasn't his money to be ambitious with and that's why he isn't here any more. Some people were taken in by it all, they dreamed and Franco likes to put it, others with a more realistic approach and questioned how these dreams were to be made reality were called negative, trolls and WUMs who hated the chairman. The main person who was key to all this is still here, Katrina Liebherr, she ultimately will agree how much ambition is real and how much is talk. The loss of one pint sized man and his built up shoes and ego doesn't change that.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

There is a saying in business 'under promise over deliver' we've had many clubs claiming they were aiming for the champions league and ended up being relegated and struggling in the leagues below. Our glorious ex CEO would love to run his mouth off about what we were going to do and everyone lauded his ambition and drive because he told them what they wanted to hear, but ultimately didn't or wasn't allowed to stick around to see it through. The fact of the matter was though that he could say what he wanted, it wasn't his money to be ambitious with and that's why he isn't here any more. Some people were taken in by it all, they dreamed and Franco likes to put it, others with a more realistic approach and questioned how these dreams were to be made reality were called negative, trolls and WUMs who hated the chairman. The main person who was key to all this is still here, Katrina Liebherr, she ultimately will agree how much ambition is real and how much is talk. The loss of one pint sized man and his built up shoes and ego doesn't change that.

 

Can't disagree with that!

[Barry Sanchez]

So Barry has been correct after all this time then? He is good that Barry and he sure knows his football.

 

He was even the first who used "glass ceiling" all that time ago, a legend who has never turned away from danger.

[trousers]

So Barry has been correct after all this time then? He is good that Barry and he sure knows his football.

 

He was even the first who used "glass ceiling" all that time ago, a legend who has never turned away from danger.

 

 

http://lifemoxie.wordpress.com/2011/09/19/7-signs-that-people-are-starving-for-recognition/

[Saint86]

I disagree that massive investment is needed to achieve Top 4, Everton have proved that. That said, clearly millions will make a difference and realistically 3 of the 4 places are in the bag for Oligarchs and "big" clubs. Although Financial Fair Play is meant to tackle that to some extent, it remains to be seen how effective it is.

 

I have three thoughts:

 

- On the budget: I am glad that no budget is set - if it's set now and Luke Shaw marches into Poch's office and demands to go, or we get an injury in the remaining 4 games, what's the point of having a fixed budget? If and when it is set we shouldn't talk about it as it gives buying / selling clubs an unnecessary advantage.

 

- On the journey: The point of leadership is to set a vision. If we come out tomorrow and say "Our new journey is mid-table obscurity" then we can kiss goodbye to a number of our first team players who are capable above that. Given what I've read I don't think that's an approach that Kruger will take - regardless of how much money is available (hence his Greenbay Packers analogy.

 

- Lots of people who on this board are ****s.

 

No its really not. If you think FFP was meant to do anything but cement the current pecking order you are sadly mistaken.

 

Once we hit £52m a year wages, we are only allowed to increase that by £2m a year.

 

The big clubs have between £100m-£200m a year in wages... so we're looking at 50years of continuous growth of £2m a year to be able to offer their current level of wages.

 

There are countless things they could do to make it fairer, starting with not introducing it. For example, we don't currently have European revenues, but to get them we must compete with teams that do which is a massive advantage financially to clubs like tottenham, everton, chelsea, city etc. Look at Liverpool, they have underwritten a £57m loss this past year, that is how much it has cost them to compete and make the step up.

 

Even I can see that there are countless ways to make it fairer. For example, if you want to encourage sustainable teams but keep FFP then make a teams academy graduates exempt from FFP regulations. This would allow us to produce players like shaw, but offer them more competitive wages. This would also encourage the larger teams to develop their own youth rather than hoovering up (and wasting) the nations promising players.