Batman Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 de beor would be an immense addition as manager IMO as I hold that opinion, he id doomed to be an utter failure IF, IF shaw and lallana go, that will be at least £50m add that on to any budget, you would be highly let down if any new manager did not get say, £60m to reinvest into the team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webby Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 De Boer, a title winning manager, come to little ol' Saints? I doubt it, but I'd be happy with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 De Boer, a title winning manager, come to little ol' Saints? I doubt it, but I'd be happy with that. Title winning ???? The dutch championship is a 2 horse race, the managers of Ajax and PSV have each a 50% chance of winning the title. Crap league peopled by mainly crap players or decent players waiting to get noticed for transfers to real clubs. Do not forget De Ridder was a star in the Eredivisie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webby Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Title winning ???? The dutch championship is a 2 horse race, the managers of Ajax and PSV have each a 50% chance of winning the title. Crap league peopled by mainly crap players or decent players waiting to get noticed for transfers to real clubs. Do not forget De Ridder was a star in the Eredivisie. That's funny cos Feyenoord and FC Twente finished above PSV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heisenberg Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 I'm lying down in a dark room until this is all over. Couple of weeks should do it. Good advise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 I'm lying down in a dark room until this is all over. Couple of weeks should do it. I'm off to the Winchester until this all blows over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Not that I think Frank would come here but found this article about De Boer interesting http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/12040/9300426/eredivisie-frank-de-boer-open-to-premier-league-move I like this quote "I would not go to Barcelona. It is very difficult to be a coach there. What can you teach players like Messi and Iniesta":) I always believe that there are two types of manager. One that manages a group of players and the other that coaches them. FdB seems to be the latter as was MP, but I get the feeling that Levy really wants the former - if this makes any sense. Why would he come here? He probably won't, but... - Academy is the jewel in the crown, and for a coach must be very tempting. - Board has put on the record that they want to bring through youth and sometimes it isn't going to work but the manager won't get blamed. (Maybe naive and wishful thinking) - PL still holds a fair bit of attraction to people, and of the available jobs, which team would you pick (presuming Spurs are going for MP)? - Financially our turnover is similar to Ajax, so the financial package won't be shoddy even though no CL football. Of course no CL footie might be a big problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Really? This is a man who has lost just 11 games as a manager! IMO he'd be an upgrade, if Poch isn't commuted to 'the project' then screw him! Really what? Assuming Van Gaal takes over at Utd, can you see either him, Rodgers, Wenger, Martinez, Pellegrini, and possibly Poch (if he does go to Spurs) being sacked next season? I didn't compare FdB or Poch. I'd obviously prefer Poch to stay because he is tested at this level and respected by players. FdB is not, but his experiences with Ajax suggest he would be well suited to Saints. Hard to underestimate the lure of EPL. Even if he will miss out on CL football by leaving Ajax, we (currently) represent the most attractive option outside those top 7 clubs - though that could well change if KL flogs off our best players. Whether the new board has the ambition to attract him is another thing entirely. RK has had problem enough communicating plans with fans let alone a prospective manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoneuelllfanclub Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Interesting that Cortese had to be talked out of sacking Poch by senior players back in December according to Adam Blackmore. You could make a film from the going ons at St Mary's! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToreSF Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Interesting that Cortese had to be talked out of sacking Poch by senior players back in December according to Adam Blackmore. You could make a film from the going ons at St Mary's! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Just saw that. I regard Blackmore as a quite reliable source as well. I guess us fans are completly in the dark when it comes to what actually goes on at St. Marys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 How can you apply to a job thats not available? Are mods allowed to be this stupid / naive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Rickylambert I thought you said yesterday, things were looking up Going on past records there will be an annoucement tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baird of the land Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 De Boer, a title winning manager, come to little ol' Saints? I doubt it, but I'd be happy with that. If the board are unable to convince Pochettino they are ambitious enough to make him stay, what would stop De Boer(even in the unlikely event that he would want to leave Ajax) following him out the door 6 months down the line after trigger happy Levy fires again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefuriousb Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 I thought MP said that he didn't understand why people has such a fascination about contracts and that he had a contract that ran for another year. Guess he's no different from anyone else (and it would be naive to think otherwise). That is what Jesus Perez told me. He was genuinely perplexed as to why I wanted Poch to agree a new deal when he already had a year and a bit left on the current one one. The suggestion being he had no reason to extend it during the season. It has still not changed my view/concern given the media speculation about everything & everyone. I am not panicking or getting my boxers in a twist, but I'd like the uncertainty to be resolved all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMarlin Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Just saw that. I regard Blackmore as a quite reliable source as well. I guess us fans are completly in the dark when it comes to what actually goes on at St. Marys... On what basis? Is he any more or less reliable than other journalists? Do you know if his contacts and sources are likely to be more or less reliable than others journalists? One of the big problems with sports journalism (or any form of journalism, for that matter) is that success is very hard to quantify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatlesaint Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 On what basis? Is he any more or less reliable than other journalists? Do you know if his contacts and sources are likely to be more or less reliable than others journalists? One of the big problems with sports journalism (or any form of journalism, for that matter) is that success is very hard to quantify. Difference is unlike most journalists who make this stuff up yet need a map and compass to find Southampton, Blackmore is often at St Marys or the training ground, a lot of his interviews being on Saints Player of course ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 On what basis? Is he any more or less reliable than other journalists? Do you know if his contacts and sources are likely to be more or less reliable than others journalists? One of the big problems with sports journalism (or any form of journalism, for that matter) is that success is very hard to quantify. On what basis? It's Adam Blackmore!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickylambert Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Rickylambert I thought you said yesterday, things were looking up Going on past records there will be an annoucement tomorrow That was before Sherwood was sacked :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Katalinic's 'tache Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Interesting that Cortese had to be talked out of sacking Poch by senior players back in December according to Adam Blackmore. You could make a film from the going ons at St Mary's! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Could explain why Poch was happy to continue when back in May, he was prepared to walk out if Cortese left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tisspahars Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 For the first time since I have been monitoring it somebody has just put up a decent lump (albeit at a shade of odds on) to lay Poch becoming the next Spurs manager. Just saying.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 What I dont get is why MoPo would be so keen to leave a club where he is worshipped, to go to a club like Spurs which is run by a chairman with as much manager turnover as our own beloved Woopert Woe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bob Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 What I dont get is why MoPo would be so keen to leave a club where he is worshipped, to go to a club like Spurs which is run by a chairman with as much manager turnover as our own beloved Woopert Woe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgie Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 What I dont get is why MoPo would be so keen to leave a club where he is worshipped, to go to a club like Spurs which is run by a chairman with as much manager turnover as our own beloved Woopert Woe Money. If he wants to leave he needs to go this week so we can plan for next season without him and find our new manager. Although at the moment I have no confidence in the new board at all. Hopefully I'm proved wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pangy Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 I would imagine we are a attractive project for the right manager. Even if Poch goes,we will still want a manager that likes to play the pressing/possession game surely not to mention a manager that likes to bring through youth players,I wouldn't imagine there are many of those type of managers around,not sure what type of football Ajax play or what Do Boer is like as a manager but I do like the idea of Bergkamp and De Boer coaching our kids the expertise these guys have must be priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 That lucre really is filthy! I want some It said in that Times article that Cortese put a clause in Pochettino's contract that he would have to pay £2m personally if he wanted to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 It said in that Times article that Cortese put a clause in Pochettino's contract that he would have to pay £2m personally if he wanted to leave. So if he sacked him.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Ash Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 A view from a spurs supporter. He raises some good points, I think Poch is more valuable to us due to the team spirit etc than he would be elsewhere. I can't quite believe the support that Poch is getting. I have nothing against the guy but what has he achieved to warrant being manager of our club? I just don't get it. He done well with the Saints in his first full season but not as good as Laudrup did at Swansea and where is he now? Poch is obviously a decent coach but c'mon guys they have bloody good players, 3 are going to the WC with England opposed to our NIL and as a settled squad they are better then us at the moment because we don't even know what our best eleven is! Yet they finish 15-16 points behind us in the league and we had a change of manager mid season in one of the most frustrating seasons ever. It may come back to haunt me and Poch may turn out to be the next Martinez in a season or two but at the moment I think it represents a massive risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 What I dont get is why MoPo would be so keen to leave a club where he is worshipped, to go to a club like Spurs which is run by a chairman with as much manager turnover as our own beloved Woopert Woe Is he worshipped. I think most think he has done a good job and would like to keep him but worshipped is rather strong. I've always felt the fans have never had the same affinity with him compared to Strachan for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint_ed Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 A view from a spurs supporter. He raises some good points, I think Poch is more valuable to us due to the team spirit etc than he would be elsewhere. I can't quite believe the support that Poch is getting. I have nothing against the guy but what has he achieved to warrant being manager of our club? I just don't get it. He done well with the Saints in his first full season but not as good as Laudrup did at Swansea and where is he now? Poch is obviously a decent coach but c'mon guys they have bloody good players, 3 are going to the WC with England opposed to our NIL and as a settled squad they are better then us at the moment because we don't even know what our best eleven is! Yet they finish 15-16 points behind us in the league and we had a change of manager mid season in one of the most frustrating seasons ever. It may come back to haunt me and Poch may turn out to be the next Martinez in a season or two but at the moment I think it represents a massive risk. It does seem like keeping things as they are are best for all concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 A view from a spurs supporter. He raises some good points, I think Poch is more valuable to us due to the team spirit etc than he would be elsewhere. I can't quite believe the support that Poch is getting. I have nothing against the guy but what has he achieved to warrant being manager of our club? I just don't get it. He done well with the Saints in his first full season but not as good as Laudrup did at Swansea and where is he now? Poch is obviously a decent coach but c'mon guys they have bloody good players, 3 are going to the WC with England opposed to our NIL and as a settled squad they are better then us at the moment because we don't even know what our best eleven is! Yet they finish 15-16 points behind us in the league and we had a change of manager mid season in one of the most frustrating seasons ever. It may come back to haunt me and Poch may turn out to be the next Martinez in a season or two but at the moment I think it represents a massive risk. Makes you wonder why they sacked Sherwood in the first place. Many believe it to be because of Sherwood's outspoken ways... if that was such an issue for Levy and the board why didn't they rein him in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100%Red&White Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 I caught a bit of TS this morning as they were reviewing the papers (and responding to Warnock's comments on the matter), all the talk was about Pochettino's imminent arrival at WHL. When it was briefly mentioned who should replace him at St Mary's, Danny Kelly suggested - with what I imagined a straight face - one Harold Redknapp. I kid you not. The journalist with him barely batted an eyelid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Rickylambert You knew sherwood was pc not going to be the manager before the last game of the season it was in he news So either you had some information or you didn't Using the excuse that things are different now sherwood has been sacked is a very poor excuse indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayrivers Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 I caught a bit of TS this morning as they were reviewing the papers (and responding to Warnock's comments on the matter), all the talk was about Pochettino's imminent arrival at WHL. When it was briefly mentioned who should replace him at St Mary's, Danny Kelly suggested - with what I imagined a straight face - one Harold Redknapp. I kid you not. The journalist with him barely batted an eyelid. I think this gives you a good idea of the level of knowledge some of the people pedalling these rumours have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintPete Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 This article just went up on the Guardian. No new information though. Bit harsh on Wanyama. http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/15/mauricio-pochettino-saints-southampton-tottenham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 I'm off to the Winchester until this all blows over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMarlin Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Difference is unlike most journalists who make this stuff up yet need a map and compass to find Southampton, Blackmore is often at St Marys or the training ground[/b}, a lot of his interviews being on Saints Player of course ! So is Alex Crook, but people don't appear to trust him. A training ground presence isn't necessarily a good barometer of a journalist's inside knowledge. In fact these days, it means diddly. Journos are 'Often at the training ground' as often as the club permits, which equates to one day a week, on media day which are as stage managed as old-style Soviet Union May Day parades. Media are brought in, manager and player are plonked on stage, questions are asked, media day is over, thanks very much. What the media gets at media day is what the club wants them to get. It's tightly controlled, and there is no opportunity for furtive revelatory little chats in a corner or behind a bike shed. You can be at the training ground/stadium as often as you are allowed, but in practice, doing so provides a journalist with no more information than anybody else would get. So to an extent, media day is counter productive and while it is no great hardship for local media guys to slip down to Marchwood, it's a commitment to a whole day for somebody from a London-based national paper/media outlet. Journalists don't need to know where Staplewood or St Marys is to get stories. They need to have contacts, and journos live or die by their contacts, most of whom have telephones/emails and don't go near training grounds. And that brings me back to the point that success in journalism is hard to quantify. Journos are like gamblers who will always tell you about the big winners they've had, but in reality haven't got two pennies to scratch their arses with. Journos are always quick to herald the story that comes to fruition, but never remind you about the majority that don't pan out. That's not necessarily their fault. They are given information - usually in good faith - and must use their judgement to decide whether it is correct. And even if it correct at the time it was provided, events may conspire very quickly to turn that genuine piece of information into nonsense. Of course, it's your prerogative to trust some journalists more than others. Trust is a basic tenet on which all journalism is predicated, especially the BBC. But it doesn't follow that the journo you trust will be 100% right, all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 You can be at the training ground/stadium as often as you are allowed, but in practice, doing so provides a journalist with no more information than anybody else would get. Not true in the slightest. Journalists are told all sorts of things off the record, even by managers and players who have just been in front of the cameras. Contacts are of course crucial and national newspapers and websites have them at most clubs, but people at Solent like Adam Blackmore have plenty at Saints and the other southern teams. They talk on the phone, via email and in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoneuelllfanclub Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 I caught a bit of TS this morning as they were reviewing the papers (and responding to Warnock's comments on the matter), all the talk was about Pochettino's imminent arrival at WHL. When it was briefly mentioned who should replace him at St Mary's, Danny Kelly suggested - with what I imagined a straight face - one Harold Redknapp. I kid you not. The journalist with him barely batted an eyelid. The journo was John Cross who actually stated Redknapp would be ideal as he lives nearby. Goes to show these Journo's know nothing about clubs outside the elite group. The amount of Journo's including Cross who slammed Norwich for sacking Chris Hughton yet you ask any Norwich fan and they would have supported the decision because he was useless tactically and the football was dire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintPete Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/tottenham-hotspur/10832021/Southampton-manager-Mauricio-Pochettino-must-speak-English-if-he-is-to-move-to-Tottenham-Hotspur.html "Players and staff at Southampton fear Pochettino will leave and have been looking for signs of his intentions. His decision to wear a tie given to him by former executive chairman Nicola Cortese for the final game of the season against Manchester United was seen in some quarters as a farewell signal." Anyone been discussing the tie?!? Is this a new low in speculation?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2629137/Mauricio-Pochettino-urged-speak-English-public-wants-Tottenham-job.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Am i being dumb, but doesn't Tottenham need permission to speak with Pochettino, before discussing the vacancy? I thought it was the same for players too, yet apparently, personal terms are agreed before a price is confirmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint in winchester Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 (edited) Spurs fans, judging by listening to Danny Kelly (Talksport) and their fans calling in, seem to think Poch is not good enough for them! They think he is a new starter that got lucky at Saints, can't speak English and is a one-hit wonder. Of course, we think differently. Personally, I think Poch would be wrong for Spurs as they need a yes man who will kow-tow to Levy and be prepared to accept any player that Franco Baldini buys for him. Like everyone else, I think Poch would last maybe a year, if he's lucky. Spurs are hardly a step up from Saints - 8th place to 6th. If Poch wants to move on, he may be better moving back to the Continental Europe. Sherwood has said the target for the Spurs job is Champions League, so top 4. I don't think that is possible. I hope Poch sees it that way, too. Edited 15 May, 2014 by the saint in winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suhari Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Am i being dumb, but doesn't Tottenham need permission to speak with Pochettino, before discussing the vacancy? I thought it was the same for players too, yet apparently, personal terms are agreed before a price is confirmed. That's a fair point. How close is all this press nonsense to "tapping up"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DT Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/tottenham-hotspur/10832021/Southampton-manager-Mauricio-Pochettino-must-speak-English-if-he-is-to-move-to-Tottenham-Hotspur.html "Players and staff at Southampton fear Pochettino will leave and have been looking for signs of his intentions. His decision to wear a tie given to him by former executive chairman Nicola Cortese for the final game of the season against Manchester United was seen in some quarters as a farewell signal." Anyone been discussing the tie?!? Is this a new low in speculation?! Utterly ridiculous. Couldn't you also argue it was a sign he was tying himself to the club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Patrón Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 Interesting that Cortese had to be talked out of sacking Poch by senior players back in December according to Adam Blackmore. ......Come again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/tottenham-hotspur/10832021/Southampton-manager-Mauricio-Pochettino-must-speak-English-if-he-is-to-move-to-Tottenham-Hotspur.html "Players and staff at Southampton fear Pochettino will leave and have been looking for signs of his intentions. His decision to wear a tie given to him by former executive chairman Nicola Cortese for the final game of the season against Manchester United was seen in some quarters as a farewell signal." Anyone been discussing the tie?!? Is this a new low in speculation?! I am not sure there is a face palm big enough to convey how stupid that is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacey Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 What the f*ck is there problem: Cortese involved? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2628151/Southampton-players-think-Mauricio-Pochettino-leave-summer-Tottenham-likely-destination.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 I am not sure there is a face palm big enough to convey how stupid that is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 What the f*ck is there problem: Cortese involved? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2628151/Southampton-players-think-Mauricio-Pochettino-leave-summer-Tottenham-likely-destination.html Why would Cortese be involved ? Really it's getting ridiculous all this speculation about him. The manager may leave because he seems to be concerned about 'the project' (which means expenditure on new players.). It's sod all to do with Cortese who is no doubt chilling out somewhere in Switzerland (or Italy). Seems to me that we're all trying to blame any tardiness or indecision of the present "board" onto someone who probably doesn't give a toss what's going on in SO14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint J 77 Posted 15 May, 2014 Share Posted 15 May, 2014 I've got nothing earth shattering to add to this discussion really but just thought I'd share my thoughts. I can't help thinking that if Pochettino doesn't want to be here, then there really is no point keeping him against his will. If he was forced to carry on working as the Saints manager and his heart was no longer in it then I think it would be even worse for the team than letting him go. If he does want out and the players use that as there excuse to leave then so be it. The same could be said for keeping Adam and Luke if they don't want to be here. Obviously I would love to see him and all the players stick around and hope the board can do they can to persuade them all to stay and buy into there new vision for the club. But if Pochettino wants out then he isn't worth keeping. If the club does find itself looking for a new manager then I hope they can find someone who actually wants to stick around long term. I know its unlikely but it would be good if we could find a good manager who is not going to use us as a stepping stone to further their career. I know, I know, where do you find a person like that in todays game?? Its a shame Matthew Le Tissier doesn't want to be a manager. Former hero player turned coach very rarely works out. We all know it didn't go to well for Shearer with Newcastle and I know that its very unlikely it would work for Matt either. It just would be refreshing to have someone who actually genuinely cared for the club manage it, but I guess that doesn't really happen anymore in the modern game and can't be expected or even hoped for anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts