Pancake Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 On the BBC Sports website : http://Www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26878545 Let the discussion commence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Bateman Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Well. They should have their point taken away, simple as that. Not sure it would be fair to give other teams any points, but just remove their gained point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgli Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 On the BBC Sports website : http://Www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26878545 Let the discussion commence... Not really sure there is much to discuss. Administrative error. Fine. move on. We still lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Poole Town fielded an ineligible player once and were docked points, Sunderland get a fine (which they won't even notice) for doing it five times. Whether points is the right thing to do is dubious, but fines in the PL are just a waste of time unless its into the millions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 4 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Not really sure there is much to discuss. Administrative error. Fine. move on. We still lost. We drew. Hth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a1ex2001 Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Its an administrative error, if they had filled out a piece of paper that they had already completed the year before he would have been eligible hardly worth mentioning let alone docking them points, wasn't like he was on a dodgy birth certificate, a fake passport or a marriage of convenience! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgli Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 We drew. Hth. Lol. Doh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Depressed of Shirley Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 The point is, that the punishment is not consistent across football. If they were a non league team, they would lose all points gained in the games he was played in. Also, with all the money in the PL, why are Sunderland farming out the admin duties to the YTS person! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Any other league would have deducted points, either the points gained in games played by the ineligible player or 3 points per game, depending on the league's rules. It's interesting that Hartlepool were docked 3 points in 2010 after they fielded a player who should have been suspended for a game which they won against Brighton. That's Gus Poyet's Brighton. Here's what he had to say on the matter back then: I am sure Hartlepool did not realise he was suspended. It was not a case of cheating, but they made a mistake and that player should not have been on the pitch so the three points should go to the opposition. They cannot just deduct the points from Hartlepool. For the sake of fair competition we should be awarded them. All teams play 46 games in a season so it would be unfair if we only played 45 matches. The Football League has to be careful with the decision they make. It does not matter if they did it with intention or not, the only decision they can make in this instance - and I would say the same if my team were the guilty party - is to give the three points to the opposition. Had it happened in Spain, Italy or France or any other league in the world we would have automatically awarded the game either 2-0 or 3-0 – with no need for a decision from the league. Here in England we have to wait for a decision. Then when that decision comes it is one which leaves the game in this country open to ridicule. In my opinion this is totally wrong. The points mean nothing to us, we are safe, we can not be promoted, we don’t need the points. It is a matter of principle and for the sake of integrity of the Premiership, Football League or even the Football Conference or lower. We must bring our rules in line with others, as one day it may have severe consequences on a club when another fails to play to the rules. For example, were Wigan to beat Chelsea on Sunday and Manchester United win the Premiership, and then after the game it emerged that Wigan had fielded an ineligible player in the game, would Chelsea accept that? No way. I feel the rulebook is wrong and urgently needs updating to bring the English game in line with the rest of the world. Wonder if he still feels this way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 4 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Good find Steve... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S4INT Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 I hate Gus Poyet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Moose on Talksport this morning said every team he played against should be given automatic 3-0 wins. I don't like him but I like his style! It'll stay as a fine and no more will be said. Weird that they're only announcing it now after being fined a few months ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 It absolutely has to be a points deduction or a replay, every competitive leagues had such rules and they have to be enforced else what happens to the next club to infringe them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 -2 at this stage would finish Sunderland off, and they don't have the balls to do it. This is the crux of it for me. If Sunderland were safe in midtable they probably would give them the deduction. But if that deduction is the difference between them staying up or being relegated then you can guarantee Sunderland would launch some sort of legal appeal, which the FA just don't have the backbone to deal with. It absolutely has to be a points deduction or a replay, every competitive leagues had such rules and they have to be enforced else what happens to the next club to infringe them? Quite. The article doesn't specify the amount of the fine, but you can bet it will be an absolute pittance in comparison to the financial rewards due to Sunderland if they stay up. Where is the incentive to play by the rules? The FA in this country are just a pathetic joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 ...and as with the Tevez / WHU incident, the PL have bottled implementing the contents of their own rule book. What a f**king joke they are. Deep, deep brown stuff to hit the fan if Sunderland survive by 1 point or GD... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 no big deal, he was one of their players at the time, they just hadn't ticked a box on some form. move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Of course, if we got the extra 2 points, it brings us closer to jeopardising ManYoos business position even further, and Scudamore has already gone on record lamenting at how its affecting the fortunes of his little empire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 A lot of fuss about nothing really as far as Saints are concerned. Bloke came on at half time and did very little, no tackles, 1 shot, lost the ball quite a bit. We'd have been worse off if Sessegnon had continued I expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 A lot of fuss about nothing really as far as Saints are concerned. Bloke came on at half time and did very little, no tackles, 1 shot, lost the ball quite a bit. We'd have been worse off if Sessegnon had continued I expect. Not the point. This is a fundamental principle of player eligibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Of course, if we got the extra 2 points, it brings us closer to jeopardising ManYoos business position even further, and Scudamore has already gone on record lamenting at how its affecting the fortunes of his little empire... Sorry to pis s on your latest conspiracy theory, but even if a side is penalised point/s, the opposing team does not receive them instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 What if the game is replayed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Saint Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 What if the game is replayed ? We will cruise into a 2 goal lead then chuck it in the bin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a1ex2001 Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Not the point. This is a fundamental principle of player eligibility. I don't see it that way, from where I'm sitting it's some crappy paper work that the club have to file in triplicate for a player they have already signed and filled the same paper work out for a year before. It's a nonsensical the argument for him being ineligible is paper thin (literally!) and the sort of rubbish football could do without. Stamp out the real blights on our game and then look at petty stuff like this if you have to! Comparing this offense to fielding a suspended player is farcical one is a genuine football matter the other is a nothing incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 I don't see it that way, from where I'm sitting it's some crappy paper work that the club have to file in triplicate for a player they have already signed and filled the same paper work out for a year before. It's a nonsensical the argument for him being ineligible is paper thin (literally!) and the sort of rubbish football could do without. Stamp out the real blights on our game and then look at petty stuff like this if you have to! Comparing this offense to fielding a suspended player is farcical one is a genuine football matter the other is a nothing incident. Yeah, lets not bother with rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 After the PL didn't dock West Ham points, for an offence which was probably worse there is no way they could ever have docked Sunderland points. Sunderland would have appealed, and most likely won. I imagine Sheff Utd would probably have kicked up a fuss as well, rightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 On the BBC Sports website : Www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26878545 Let the discussion commence... Discussion already commenced yesterday: http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?49681-We-was-robbed-by Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Are we really so desperate that we want points by any means, including technicalities. It was a fair game and the player was employed by Sunderland. The need for international clearance when one of your own players comes back from a loan seems bizarre but it is a rule and Sunderland have been punished for the oversight. Let's leave the arguing about technicalities to people like Mourinho who don't really care about a fair game at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a1ex2001 Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Yeah, lets not bother with rules. Where did I say that? I just said lets not bother enforcing points penalties for minor administrative errors the player was to all intents and purposes eligible all that was missing was a formality piece of paperwork it wasn't like Sunderland were going to be refused international clearance for a player who's registration they already owned and had received clearance for six months before? a fine is perfectly adequate for a minor procedural screw up that didn't give them any sporting advantage they wouldn't have had if the paperwork was correctly completed. The offense is of a totally different order of magnitude to fielding a suspended player or one with a dodgy passport for example both of which scenarios afford a side a sporting advantage that they should never have had. If this was a Saints player we would be seeing a totally different thread, it staggers me how people on here can't see the difference between a clerical error and cheating to gain an advantage. Your response does however remind me why your on my ignore list and make me wish I hadn't clicked show post this forum has been much more enjoyable without your ramblings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Durman Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Moose on Talksport this morning said every team he played against should be given automatic 3-0 wins. I don't like him but I like his style! It'll stay as a fine and no more will be said. Weird that they're only announcing it now after being fined a few months ago... That is how it's done. We should fight this in the court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Moose on Talksport said pls don't quote him, i have that c*nt on ignore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopkins Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Some absolute nonsense spoken in this thread. It's completely different situation to ones that have led to point deductions. The rules fwiw: Any club found to have played an ineligible player in a match shall have any points gained from that match deducted from its record and have levied upon it a fine. The company may vary this decision in respect of the points gained only in circumstances where the ineligibility is due to the failure to obtain an International Transfer Certificate or where the ineligibility is related to the player’s status only. The board may also order that such match be replayed on such terms as are decided by the board which may also levy penalty points against the club in default. So no, when it comes to International clearance it isn't necessarily a points deduction as punishment. That only happens if the ineligibility is due to lack of registration, suspension, cup tied etc Also this is from a Sunderland fan on another forum: We played our own player, who was registered with the league, under contract, not suspended. He had been able to play for us the season before. He had a legit work permit. He had international clearance but the secretary didn't realise it had to be renewed when he returned. This is an administration error, not a sporting one. We found out about it, owned up, got fined. We didn't play a player that was suspended, cup tied or not ours to gain an advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopkins Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Sunderland statement which should (but won't) put an end to it. "The issue of Ji Dong-won was explained in detail at today’s Premier League shareholders' meeting and no issues were raised by any club. Sunderland AFC confirmed that they had complied with all procedures and the Premier League stated that the player was duly registered on the extranet system and in all other Premier League mechanisms. The club has never accepted any wrongdoing, but did acknowledge that a technical fault occurred and as such were fined by the Premier League accordingly in December. The matter is now closed." And a quote from MK Dons (who Sunderland knocked out of the cup with Ji in the team - although they were winning until Ji was subbed off!!!) The club acknowledges that the FL board dealt with the situation as they saw fit and will not be pursuing the matter further. So this is a complete non story. Any logical person should see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Any club found to have played an ineligible player in a match shall have any points gained from that match deducted from its record and have levied upon it a fine. The company may vary this decision in respect of the points gained only in circumstances where the ineligibility is due to the failure to obtain an International Transfer Certificate or where the ineligibility is related to the player’s status only. The board may also order that such match be replayed on such terms as are decided by the board which may also levy penalty points against the club in default. Must admit I couldn't be bothered to trawl through the Premier League rulebook to find whether they had anything about it, so credit to you for doing so Actually quite surprised they've accounted for this specific issue - I would have thought the vast majority of their rules that could see disciplinary action taken against clubs would be quite generic, thereby leaving the PL 400 miles of wiggle room in which to not do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 .......looks like this one is done and dusted ...with only a small fine. but even if there were to be a re-think, and they were punished harder.....and Sunderland were to lose one point, but it wouldn't necessarily mean we would be awarded the other two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawillwill Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 .......looks like this one is done and dusted ...with only a small fine. but even if there were to be a re-think, and they were punished harder.....and Sunderland were to lose one point, but it wouldn't necessarily mean we would be awarded the other two. I don't think Sunderland should be deducted points, but I do think we should be awarded 4 or 5 extra for the heartache it caused us. Sent from my HTC Desire C using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InvictaSaint Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 One of the articles mentioned a Sunderland club secretary resigning or leaving as a result of this error - Liz Coley. Am I imagining it or did she once work at Saints? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopkins Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Must admit I couldn't be bothered to trawl through the Premier League rulebook to find whether they had anything about it, so credit to you for doing so Actually quite surprised they've accounted for this specific issue - I would have thought the vast majority of their rules that could see disciplinary action taken against clubs would be quite generic, thereby leaving the PL 400 miles of wiggle room in which to not do anything. To be fair it was someone on another forum that did the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 One of the articles mentioned a Sunderland club secretary resigning or leaving as a result of this error - Liz Coley. Am I imagining it or did she once work at Saints? Was discussed on the other thread on here yesterday, yes Liz Coley was secretary during Lowe's reign, then went to Fulham and then apparently Sunderland. She is now looking for a new job, though Sunderland deny it is anything to do with this issue. There have been very few times when clubs in the top tiers of English football have been deducted points for player ineligibity reasons, and never in the PL. It tends to be a sanction used more often in the lower leagues. Strangely Sunderland are one of the very few clubs that have previous form for this, having been deducted 2 points for fielding an ineligible player in season 1890-91. They were the first football league team to be sanctioned in this way. You would think they would have learned their lesson. http://www.footballsite.co.uk/Statistics/Articles/DidYouKnow29.htm There is a mildly interesting academic paper on the subject here: http://www.coventry.ac.uk/Global/05%20Research%20section%20assets/Research/Centre%20for%20the%20international%20Business%20of%20Sport/Working%20paper%20series/CIBS%20WP08.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasiak-9- Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Ji-Dong Won is nothing short of the worst player I've ever seen in the Premiership and at St. Mary's. He fundamentally could. not. control. the. ball. Every single time they passed to him we had the ball back in seconds as he tried to take someone on and failed, misplaced a pass or miscontrolled the ball. Terrible, terrible player who made Tadanari Lee look like Shinji Kagawa. Anyone see the Palace - Sunderland game earlier in the season? He literally pulled his head back from a header scared to head the ball! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 4 April, 2014 Share Posted 4 April, 2014 Ji-Dong Won is nothing short of the worst player I've ever seen in the Premiership and at St. Mary's. He fundamentally could. not. control. the. ball. Every single time they passed to him we had the ball back in seconds as he tried to take someone on and failed, misplaced a pass or miscontrolled the ball. Terrible, terrible player who made Tadanari Lee look like Shinji Kagawa. Anyone see the Palace - Sunderland game earlier in the season? He literally pulled his head back from a header scared to head the ball! rascist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 5 April, 2014 Share Posted 5 April, 2014 We fight everyday just to be even Gboy. So much hate around, sometimes its just a struggle to sit where I want on the bus. We shall no be moved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 5 April, 2014 Share Posted 5 April, 2014 We fight everyday just to be even Gboy. So much hate around, sometimes its just a struggle to sit where I want on the bus. We shall no be moved. Open your eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 5 April, 2014 Share Posted 5 April, 2014 I don't think Sunderland should be deducted points, but I do think we should be awarded 4 or 5 extra for the heartache it caused us . Sent from my HTC Desire C using Tapatalk 2 ..ouch !....you may be in line for a yellow card for simulation.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 5 April, 2014 Share Posted 5 April, 2014 Was discussed on the other thread on here yesterday, yes Liz Coley was secretary during Lowe's reign, then went to Fulham and then apparently Sunderland. She is now looking for a new job, though Sunderland deny it is anything to do with this issue. There have been very few times when clubs in the top tiers of English football have been deducted points for player ineligibity reasons, and never in the PL. It tends to be a sanction used more often in the lower leagues. Strangely Sunderland are one of the very few clubs that have previous form for this, having been deducted 2 points for fielding an ineligible player in season 1890-91. They were the first football league team to be sanctioned in this way. You would think they would have learned their lesson. http://www.footballsite.co.uk/Statistics/Articles/DidYouKnow29.htm There is a mildly interesting academic paper on the subject here: http://www.coventry.ac.uk/Global/05%20Research%20section%20assets/Research/Centre%20for%20the%20international%20Business%20of%20Sport/Working%20paper%20series/CIBS%20WP08.pdf Ha, Liz Coley, think she's still tipping off Longshot ?? :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 5 April, 2014 Share Posted 5 April, 2014 LOL at Gussie being hoisted on his own petard in todays tabloids.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ART Posted 28 April, 2014 Share Posted 28 April, 2014 Interesting to see AFC Wimbledon have been deducted 3 points by the Football League. Once again this shows different standards between the Football League and the Premier League. Deducting Sunderland 3 points would surely result in them being relegated unless they win all remaining games. Can see the likes of Cardiff protesting and calling foul before long. http://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/article/165/9287785/afc-wimbledon-deducted-points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 28 April, 2014 Share Posted 28 April, 2014 Didn't Sheffield united win a law suit on this point against West Ham a few years back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 28 April, 2014 Share Posted 28 April, 2014 Didn't Sheffield united win a law suit on this point against West Ham a few years back? The consequences of that particular player repeatedly playing for West Ham were a little more severe on Sheffield United then Sunderland's actions on ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted 28 April, 2014 Share Posted 28 April, 2014 I'm all for Sunderland being relegated. Here's hoping the other clubs at the bottom try to make something of this, and quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopkins Posted 28 April, 2014 Share Posted 28 April, 2014 Interesting to see AFC Wimbledon have been deducted 3 points by the Football League. Once again this shows different standards between the Football League and the Premier League. Deducting Sunderland 3 points would surely result in them being relegated unless they win all remaining games. Can see the likes of Cardiff protesting and calling foul before long. http://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/article/165/9287785/afc-wimbledon-deducted-points It's not double standards at all. Check out post 32 and 33 to see why or just ignore the facts and keep talking nonsense if you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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