david in sweden Posted 6 April, 2014 Share Posted 6 April, 2014 Dunno what "historical stats" you're looking at Dave. But 1 in 3 over 38 games is roughly 13 goals a season, which would have been enough to get into the top ten scorers in 4 of the last 5 league seasons. If that's what you consider average then fair enough. in my nerdy fashion, I've looked at the " historical " scoring record of many (past) strikers as some sort of comparison, when some new name is thrust into the media.... as a possible buy. Some of the Prem's big money buys (not all ours - btw) did well to have a career average of 1 goal per 3 games. The very best (Shearer was a prime example) AVERAGED better than 1 every 2 games. The fact of the matter is that some strikers who've had 1-2 good seasons become ridiculously over-rated when in fact they were only a success in ONE club. (think Torres, Carroll or Bent). James Beattie was a prime example, who did well in his mid-career with Saints, but didn't distinguish himself at all later (perhaps with the exception of a purple patch, when at lower league Sheff. Utd). The real successes are often those experienced players with good international careers who move clubs, at a good age... ..but even that is no fool-proof formula.....(think Delgado / Rasiak). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 6 April, 2014 Share Posted 6 April, 2014 Ok.... so I've only had a brief skim through the thread so forgive me if this has been covered. But it seems obvious to me! So we have £27m in transfer fee liabilities right now. I'm not sure if it is easy to find precise figures for 2013/2014 Premier League prize-money, but I read at the end of last season there was to be a huge increase in TV money this year compared to last. Given that we earned £46.9m in broadcasting rights for 2012/13, and the team finishing 20TH in 2013/2014 is expected to receive £63m this season (source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/10072297/New-Premier-League-TV-deal-promises-100m-prize-money-for-next-seasons-title-winners.html), then if we come 8th/9th we should expect TV/prize money revenue to go up to £83m - £85m (an increase of around £20m on last year). This increase, plus the operating profit (which I assume we'll be able to make again - at least) eliminates the entire £27m. I'm no accountant. But sounds to me like we're entirely well-positioned financially. The BBC article is way OTT, and I'm slightly disappointed with the tone taken by Hans Hoffsteter in his comments. It may be that he is accentuating the negatives now to (1) have a dig at the previous regime and (2) make it look like the new regime has done a better job down the line, but I really can't see any reason why we can't invest again in the summer! I came back on this (Dan83) ...as a good example of the way that some journos tend to phrase their articles to sensationalise them with scary headlines. Some made it sound as though we had huge debts which were a liability and that " the big clubs " would be queueing up to " cherry-pick " our best players at giveaway prices. Although we owe those transfer fees, they cannot be considered a liability - unless we had defaulted on the agreed contractural payments, often spread out over several years. MY MORTGAGE is a debt, but cannot be regarded as a liability.... unless I fail to carry out the agreed repayments. Another example of the ignorance of many in the tabloid world who write such stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 April, 2014 Share Posted 6 April, 2014 They are debts from a previous year which will need to be settled out of this years income. Exactly the kind of behaviour Cortese derided when he started. The fact that fortunately the tv income has gone up and will bail us out is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 6 April, 2014 Share Posted 6 April, 2014 Cortese has lots to answer for. Seems he left books in right mess. Well actually no he didn't. He simply invested in transfers and ensured the payment terms were spread over more than one year as is standard practice. Most of the "debt" will be paid off this season (figures were for end of last season) and the TV money this year will more than cover these transfer fees. We have not failed to pay anyone what they are owed. The good news is that our net debt is approx 1m, which is remarkably good for a football club, especially with assets (players who do not show in the books) worth anywhere in the region of 85-100m. Unfortunately you have taken the sensationalist headlines of the press which were so wrong and swallowed them hook line and sinker. Of course we could all argue that Cortese could have done better, the commercial side is poor to say the least, but he did not leave the books in a mess at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddings and Monkeys Posted 6 April, 2014 Share Posted 6 April, 2014 They are debts from a previous year which will need to be settled out of this years income. Exactly the kind of behaviour Cortese derided when he started. The fact that fortunately the tv income has gone up and will bail us out is irrelevant. I reckon he knew the TV money would go up so felt it pretty safe to structure the outgoings in this way. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 April, 2014 Share Posted 6 April, 2014 I reckon he knew the TV money would go up so felt it pretty safe to structure the outgoings in this way. What do you think? I think its spending money before you've earned it, compromising tomorrow for today. Whats worse it largely spunked money that should have been available for transfers this summer on two players who have contributed little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 April, 2014 Share Posted 6 April, 2014 I think its spending money before you've earned it, compromising tomorrow for today. Whats worse it largely spunked money that should have been available for transfers this summer on two players who have contributed little. What happened to this? "Clubs spend money they do not have, they spend next years money. They spend money that will not arrive for two years and say 'but we'll have some success and bring in more cash to cover the shortfall.' It cannot be sustained, in good times you need to save money for bad times. If we reach the priemer league I would like to think we would not need parachute payments. In good years you should put money away for bad years" Nicola Cortese March 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 April, 2014 Share Posted 6 April, 2014 Speculate to accumulate to stay in the prem Or some other crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 I think its spending money before you've earned it, compromising tomorrow for today. Whats worse it largely spunked money that should have been available for transfers this summer on two players who have contributed little. You infer that we therefore won't have money available for spending on new players in the Summer. The journos are right then in your opinion, that the finances are in a mess and that rather than being able to afford to spend on new players, we'll have to sell some first, eh? And of course the value of those two players is now zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 You infer that we therefore won't have money available for spending on new players in the Summer. The journos are right then in your opinion, that the finances are in a mess and that rather than being able to afford to spend on new players, we'll have to sell some first, eh? And of course the value of those two players is now zero. Er no. Thats you inferring lots of stuff, and making some up for good measure. A typical Wes post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Gorilla 5 Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 Don't worry chaps, the below should sort out the enormous hole in the finances: Chambers - £10m Lovren - £15m Shaw - £27m Schneiderlin - £15m Lallana - £25m Gallagher - £5m Plus Wanyama and Rodriguez, when fit again, for potentially big fees. All ball park figures from the press. Pretty sure I've missed out a bunch of other players certain to leave as well, i.e. the worthless Hooiveld, Ramirez and Osvaldo who will leave for nothing except the remainder of their contracts being paid up by the club. That being said I make it a guaranteed £97m coming into the club minus the £27m transfer 'debt' and a few other expenses leaving somewhere in the region of £70m to reinvest or pocket. Most or all of the above is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 What happened to this? "Clubs spend money they do not have, they spend next years money. They spend money that will not arrive for two years and say 'but we'll have some success and bring in more cash to cover the shortfall.' It cannot be sustained, in good times you need to save money for bad times. If we reach the priemer league I would like to think we would not need parachute payments. In good years you should put money away for bad years" Nicola Cortese March 2010. An issue with all newly promoted clubs is that you need to buy before the season starts but don't get the big money until the season ends. Being able to pay upfront in L1/CCC with a rich owner is one thing; doing it in the BPL with the money players now cost, is another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 Er no. Thats you inferring lots of stuff, and making some up for good measure. A typical Wes post. So is the money still available for buying in new players or not? Sorry if I assumed that your statement that it was "spunked up the wall" inferred that it wasn't. Personally, I think that the sensible position is to wait and see and not make judgements on the matter when we don't know at this stage what Katharina's plans are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 Its really not tricky Wes. 1. Cortese spent more money than we had last season leaving a £27m hole in the accounts. 2. That money needs to be recouped from this year's income, meaning there is £27m less than there would otherwise have been, regardless of what KL does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 Its really not tricky Wes. 1. Cortese spent more money than we had last season leaving a £27m hole in the accounts. 2. That money needs to be recouped from this year's income, meaning there is £27m less than there would otherwise have been, regardless of what KL does. The bit that I have highlighted is the crucial bit. It isn't tricky, Tim. I have no issue with Cortese anticipating the massively increased revenue that we will receive this season to ensure that we will progress even further. You obviously do and you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm with those who look at the bigger picture, that the transfer fees were paid over a longer period, that there is money to be recouped on selling on Osvaldo, etc. Manchester United are massively in debt and propose "spunking" £100 million + on new signings this Summer. Just think how much they would have been able to spend if it weren't for having to service that debt too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 The bit that I have highlighted is the crucial bit. It isn't tricky, Tim. I have no issue with Cortese anticipating the massively increased revenue that we will receive this season to ensure that we will progress even further. You obviously do and you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm with those who look at the bigger picture, that the transfer fees were paid over a longer period, that there is money to be recouped on selling on Osvaldo, etc. Manchester United are massively in debt and propose "spunking" £100 million + on new signings this Summer. Just think how much they would have been able to spend if it weren't for having to service that debt too. Well the people at the tip clearly had a problem with it, hence why Nicola was out on his ear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 Well the people at the tip clearly had a problem with it, hence why Nicola was out on his ear. With Katharina expressing regret that he did not stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 With Katharina expressing regret that he did not stay. Wes is right. Cortese quit. He was so determined and focused on delivering his visionary vision that he walked out after just one season in the top flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 With Katharina expressing regret that he did not stay. Clubs sack managers and thank them for their service. Empty platitudes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 Clubs sack managers and thank them for their service. Empty platitudes. Expressing the wish that he would have stayed doesn't sound to me quite the same as thanking him for his service. But who knows, perhaps her English isn't as perfect as it ought to have been, or maybe she was misquoted. But of course, only she would know whether the sentiment was just an empty platitude or whether it was heartfelt. It really isn't for us mere fans to attempt to guess at what she really thought, although as usual nobody lets that stop them doing it on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 Expressing the wish that he would have stayed doesn't sound to me quite the same as thanking him for his service. But who knows, perhaps her English isn't as perfect as it ought to have been, or maybe she was misquoted. But of course, only she would know whether the sentiment was just an empty platitude or whether it was heartfelt. It really isn't for us mere fans to attempt to guess at what she really thought, although as usual nobody lets that stop them doing it on here. So when Hans says 'we've inherited a difficult situation financially" what he really meant was "the finances were great under Cortese and we wish he was still here" yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 With Katharina expressing regret that he did not stay. And subsequently those in charge criticised the previous regime for the difficult financial situation. Let's be honest, it doesn't look like she was desperate for him to stay, she wanted to reign him in. As others have said, it was good that she stepped in before things got out of hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 Expressing the wish that he would have stayed doesn't sound to me quite the same as thanking him for his service. But who knows, perhaps her English isn't as perfect as it ought to have been, or maybe she was misquoted. But of course, only she would know whether the sentiment was just an empty platitude or whether it was heartfelt. It really isn't for us mere fans to attempt to guess at what she really thought, although as usual nobody lets that stop them doing it on here. Why is it not for us fans to speculate on what she meant? That's what a message board is for and you are doing the exact same thing but saying she really wanted to keep him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 And subsequently those in charge criticised the previous regime for the difficult financial situation. Let's be honest, it doesn't look like she was desperate for him to stay, she wanted to reign him in. As others have said, it was good that she stepped in before things got out of hand. Funny isn't it how several of us warned of this and were given all sorts of abuse for it, called trolls, WUMs, and agendas etc yet stuck to our guns and now we've been proven right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 7 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 7 April, 2014 Funny isn't it how several of us warned of this and were given all sorts of abuse for it, called trolls, WUMs, and agendas etc yet stuck to our guns and now we've been proven right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 7 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 7 April, 2014 Adam Blackmore @bigadamsport Mar 31 Had feedback from football finance expert - a senior lecturer in economics- who thinks #saintsfc figures show they're a solid well-run club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 7 April, 2014 Share Posted 7 April, 2014 Why is it not for us fans to speculate on what she meant? That's what a message board is for and you are doing the exact same thing but saying she really wanted to keep him. I'm not doing the same thing at all. I quoted something that was in the public domain that she is reported to have said. Now I accept that it might have been misreported, but I have not speculated on her thoughts or wishes, merely repeated what she is reported to have said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 9 April, 2014 Share Posted 9 April, 2014 http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/11136720._/ Nice work if you can get it...and keep it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 9 April, 2014 Share Posted 9 April, 2014 By way of a comparison, this graphic shows how poorly we've done with commercial revenue despite being in the Premier League: Five Championship clubs (Leeds, Brighton, Watford, Wolves and Leicester) all earned more money through commercial sources than we did last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 9 April, 2014 Share Posted 9 April, 2014 http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/11136720._/ Nice work if you can get it...and keep it. Probably insisted on being the highest paid person at the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 9 April, 2014 Share Posted 9 April, 2014 http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/11136720._/ Nice work if you can get it...and keep it. Plus quite a generous expenses package as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 9 April, 2014 http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/11136720._/ Nice work if you can get it...and keep it. Anyone know how that compares to other PL chairmen/CEOs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint-Armstrong Posted 9 April, 2014 Share Posted 9 April, 2014 Looking at 2010's figures, that would put him on more than any other PL director - including David Gill at MUFC. http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2010/10/29/2188218/revealed-manchester-uniteds-david-gill-is-highest-paid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 9 April, 2014 Looking at 2010's figures, that would put him on more than any other PL director - including David Gill at MUFC. http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2010/10/29/2188218/revealed-manchester-uniteds-david-gill-is-highest-paid Yeah, but Gill presided over a £83.6m loss.... it's all relative.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 9 April, 2014 Share Posted 9 April, 2014 We should've got Daniel Levy - peanuts at £650,000pa and made them a £33.5m profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 9 April, 2014 Share Posted 9 April, 2014 Looking at 2010's figures, that would put him on more than any other PL director - including David Gill at MUFC. http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2010/10/29/2188218/revealed-manchester-uniteds-david-gill-is-highest-paid Quite surprised by that. On the face of it, though, paying your main (only) executive board member just shy of £2m a year when the company has total revenue of around £80m doesn't seem that excessive to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 9 April, 2014 Share Posted 9 April, 2014 Quite surprised by that. On the face of it, though, paying your main (only) executive board member just shy of £2m a year when the company has total revenue of around £80m doesn't seem that excessive to me. ... seems excessive to me... the company I work for has a CEO on about $8mil - but the company turnover is around $4bn per annum... football is an oddbal and cant be compared directly to other industry but, it all depends on what was in his contract, what was promised by marcus etc - that figure may well have included a huge bonus for getting back up... we dont know - and never will. Thing that is important is that this did not come at the expense of reasonable investment in the team or player wages appropriate to keep talent. The doom mongers seem to forget that teh accounts state we made a profit... but loike all clubs pay transfer fees over a number of years so have those liabilties... but I guess that does not make as good a headline or story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 9 April, 2014 Author Share Posted 9 April, 2014 Matt @upthesaints Grotesque salary of Nik Nak for the part time job he was doing. Matt Le Tissier @mattletiss7 Wonder if that includes expenses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 9 April, 2014 Share Posted 9 April, 2014 ... seems excessive to me... the company I work for has a CEO on about $8mil - but the company turnover is around $4bn per annum... football is an oddbal and cant be compared directly to other industry but' date=' it all depends on what was in his contract, what was promised by marcus etc - that figure may well have included a huge bonus for getting back up... we dont know - and never will. Thing that is important is that this did not come at the expense of reasonable investment in the team or player wages appropriate to keep talent. [/quote'] It's a big number, certainly, but £2m out of £80m isn't anything to really get hot under the collar about, IMO. What was particularly excessive was his salary of £1.1m when the club was in League One only generating £14m for itself. The doom mongers seem to forget that teh accounts state we made a profit... but loike all clubs pay transfer fees over a number of years so have those liabilties... but I guess that does not make as good a headline or story... While the operating profit figure is calculated before amortisation of player contracts (i.e. the portion of transfer fees being evenly deducted over the course of the year), it would be very foolish to ignore the figure after said amortisation was applied. It is still something that affects the profitability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 April, 2014 Share Posted 10 April, 2014 Yeah, but Gill presided over a £83.6m loss.... it's all relative.... The also have commercial revenues of £130m and a shirt sponsorship deal with the largest insurance company In the world. Ours were £6.7m and a shirt sponsorship deal with the largest IT company In Chilworth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodles34 Posted 10 April, 2014 Share Posted 10 April, 2014 The also have commercial revenues of £130m and a shirt sponsorship deal with the largest insurance company In the world. Ours were £6.7m and a shirt sponsorship deal with the largest IT company In Chilworth. You must have been creaming your pants for about 23 seconds last night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 10 April, 2014 Share Posted 10 April, 2014 (edited) Some excellent PL wide breakdowns can be found here: https://mobile.twitter.com/SwissRamble Interesting reading. Our matchday income is fairly competitive but Commercial is woeful. Edited 10 April, 2014 by Saint Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodles34 Posted 10 April, 2014 Share Posted 10 April, 2014 So when Hans says 'we've inherited a difficult situation financially" what he really meant was "the finances were great under Cortese and we wish he was still here" yes? no, what he is clearly saying is that "we're fine, but we wont be spending that kind of money again, so lets make out we need to reign it in, and who can we blame? oh yeah, that guy leaving out of the back door". Sames as the new football manager coming in and saying 2we need new players2 and after losing a few games saying "i didnt sign them, it was the last guy, (he was clueless)" Thought even you could read that right. Do you really think our books are in a mess? Do you really think that we were the only club in the world to pay outright for players? Why would you, I dont if i get the option to spread payments, why would anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 10 April, 2014 Share Posted 10 April, 2014 no, what he is clearly saying is that "we're fine, but we wont be spending that kind of money again, so lets make out we need to reign it in, and who can we blame? oh yeah, that guy leaving out of the back door". Sames as the new football manager coming in and saying 2we need new players2 and after losing a few games saying "i didnt sign them, it was the last guy, (he was clueless)" Thought even you could read that right. Do you really think our books are in a mess? Do you really think that we were the only club in the world to pay outright for players? Why would you, I dont if i get the option to spread payments, why would anyone else? I cannot believe this is even being debated FFS we are fine financially, all you have to do is look at the finances of almost any other premier league club to see we are doing ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 April, 2014 Share Posted 10 April, 2014 no, what he is clearly saying is that "we're fine, but we wont be spending that kind of money again, so lets make out we need to reign it in, and who can we blame? oh yeah, that guy leaving out of the back door". Sames as the new football manager coming in and saying 2we need new players2 and after losing a few games saying "i didnt sign them, it was the last guy, (he was clueless)" Thought even you could read that right. Do you really think our books are in a mess? Do you really think that we were the only club in the world to pay outright for players? Why would you, I dont if i get the option to spread payments, why would anyone else? Who said i did? or is that you making things up again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 April, 2014 Share Posted 10 April, 2014 You must have been creaming your pants for about 23 seconds last night? All that's missing is your, "this is a pointless thread with nothing worth commenting on" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 10 April, 2014 Share Posted 10 April, 2014 By way of a comparison, this graphic shows how poorly we've done with commercial revenue despite being in the Premier League: Five Championship clubs (Leeds, Brighton, Watford, Wolves and Leicester) all earned more money through commercial sources than we did last season. Ask not if you can achieve a lower commercial income than Championship Watford, but how. Laughable people believed Cortese's pie in the sky Champions League routine when you look at this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodles34 Posted 10 April, 2014 Share Posted 10 April, 2014 I cannot believe this is even being debated FFS we are fine financially, all you have to do is look at the finances of almost any other premier league club to see we are doing ok. that is my point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodles34 Posted 10 April, 2014 Share Posted 10 April, 2014 Who said i did? or is that you making things up again? Originally Posted by Turkish So when Hans says 'we've inherited a difficult situation financially" what he really meant was "the finances were great under Cortese and we wish he was still here" yes? you did, the above sentence infers that you believe what Hans is saying, now you're saying you didnt't mean that? Make up your mind.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 10 April, 2014 Share Posted 10 April, 2014 that is my point... I know, I was agreeing with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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