Unbelievable Jeff Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 At this stage of the season, with the interest in our players and manager, I actually see it as a good thing. We will still finish in and around 8th or 9th, and the chance is we will keep some of the players that really are important to the way we play (Lovren, Schneiderlin, Lallana) and perhaps even the manager. If we can drift off to the end of the season, this may do us well ready for next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 I don't see the positives in losing any game to be fair. I don't think anyone at the club would think like that either. Games like yesterday are however reminders of how perhaps we have done the easy part in being better than all the dross, but now we have to break into the part of the league where the best teams reside and how much extra it may take to do that over the course of a 38 game season. The good news is that we have a young team and a good Manager. The bad news is that patience is not a trait recognised in Premier League football. Lets hope everyone involved right now has some - and that includes the players! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 I doubt any club who is eying up one of our players will change their mind on one or two performances. So no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewell Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 I don't see the positives in losing any game to be fair. I don't think anyone at the club would think like that either. There is always a positive in defeat and that is that you learn from it. I am sure MP and his staff learn as much and if not more by poor performances and defeats than from when we play well. The players will also learn and with both of these things combined I would hope that they will be able to draw on these experiences in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 I sort of take the OP's point in so much as it applies to Lovren in particular. Back in Nov / Dec, he was rightly getting a heap of praise from some respected pundits and I was thinking he was the one most likely to be poached this summer. Games like yesterday, but there have been a few now, show that he is not quite the top 4 player that was implied in the first 15 games or so. Otherwise, no, I hate losing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 Failure is probably the best learning experience, especially if you learn to avoid it next time. It's a very young squad. These things are going to happen. It's only a total loss if the people at the club fail to work out where we went wrong and how we fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 It´s only positive when you see that the team has learned from it, and you dont know that until much later..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 Losing can only be negative. If it weren't then every club would be doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 I imagine there are a fair few on here that see it as a positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 (edited) Losing can only be negative. If it weren't then every club would be doing it. Exactly, there is nothing positive to be taken from losing unless there are exceptional circumstances like ref awarding 5 or 6 iffy penalties. The art of losing isn't hard to master and we seem to have mastered it well. Still very miffed about yesterday, we could have put the game away on 3 occasions and didn't, we need to correct that as much as our defensive weaknesses. I am by no means certain that NC wouldn't have sacked Mauricio by now, football is a results game and just now ours aren't good enough.. Edited 24 March, 2014 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 Exactly, there is nothing positive to be taken from losing unless there are exceptional circumstances like ref awarding 5 or 6 iffy penalties. The art of losing isn't hard to master and we seem to have mastered it well. Still very miffed about yesterday, we could have put the game away on 3 occasions and didn't, we need to correct that as much as our defensive weaknesses. I am by no means certain that NC wouldn't have sacked Mauricio by now, football is a results game and just now ours aren't good enough.. Disagree. If the lessons learned from one loss are applied successfully, the benefits can be long-term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 Disagree. If the lessons learned from one loss are applied successfully, the benefits can be long-term. but they aren't being applied now are they, we keep losing after going ahead, good sides don't do that, they get their noses in front and then gut it out. Our squad is too weak, we've known that since November and have done nothing about it, ie we've not learnt anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 The result yesterday hurts but you're joking right? We've been back here for two seasons with a young side and we only just lost away to a team who are close to being a champions league qualifying side. Defeats like this expose weakness and anyone at the top of their game or trying to get there will tell you that without failure you cant have real success. Everyone knows we have lost many points from winning positions and this will be addressed in pre season and with a few new signings. If we improve every season, like we have for the past 5 or so, then that is all you can ask for. Nope, I am not a fan of all this academy nonsense, everybody knows that, players like JWP just give me the shudders, give me a hardened 25 year old pro any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 Disagree. If the lessons learned from one loss are applied successfully, the benefits can be long-term. So... the more you lose the better you'll be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 but they aren't being applied now are they, we keep losing after going ahead, good sides don't do that, they get their noses in front and then gut it out. Our squad is too weak, we've known that since November and have done nothing about it, ie we've not learnt anything. 4 losses from 19 games we've taken the lead ain't all that bad. Especially when you think that's Chelsea, Spurs x2 and someone else I can remember. It's frustrating, absolutely but it's not as often as your post seems to imply. I must confess it is less than I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 So... the more you lose the better you'll be? C'mon, we both know you are easily smart enough to know that isn't what he means Mr. Whitey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 4 losses from 19 games we've taken the lead ain't all that bad. Especially when you think that's Chelsea, Spurs x2 and someone else I can remember. It's frustrating, absolutely but it's not as often as your post seems to imply. I must confess it is less than I thought. We took the lead against West Ham and lost 3-1, that was a bad,bad result but what have we learnt from it, nothing at all . Anyway you also need to be looking at the number of times we've taken the lead and then not won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 We took the lead against West Ham and lost 3-1, that was a bad,bad result but what have we learnt from it, nothing at all . Anyway you also need to be looking at the number of times we've taken the lead and then not won. Ah yeah, that was poor. That one did hurt. Well other than the losses there are 3 draws, and 12 wins. I'm sorry but that really isn't that bad. I'm much more worried by our inability to win after going behind. In that respect it's 0 from 11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 C'mon, we both know you are easily smart enough to know that isn't what he means Mr. Whitey. Indeed. Refinement should be part of every profession. There are things I did in my early career that I'd never bother with now, largely because I got burnt, learned from my experiences and found more reliable avenues for success. If we had a team of old duffers consistently making elementary mistakes, it'd be a different story. We've got a young team that lacks a bit of experience and second half grit, especially with our current absentees. Sometimes the best time to tinker with something is not when it's doing well, but when it breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 Ah yeah, that was poor. That one did hurt. Well other than the losses there are 3 draws, and 12 wins. I'm sorry but that really isn't that bad. I'm much more worried by our inability to win after going behind. In that respect it's 0 from 11. If we can't win 37% of the time when we go in front how do you expect us to win when we go behind ? Team needs serious overhaul, need more experience in the side. I have to admit it I watched Stoke yesterday and would have to admit I liked what I saw, then again I like winning, they'll probably be above us next season. Good defence, hard midfield, strikers who know what they have to do with the ball 8 yards out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 Ah yeah, that was poor. That one did hurt. Well other than the losses there are 3 draws, and 12 wins. I'm sorry but that really isn't that bad. I'm much more worried by our inability to win after going behind. In that respect it's 0 from 11. the recent trend is not good though, lost at West Ham and Spurs after being in front, let norwich back into it when cruising and were hanging on a bit until the 4th goal. Stoke got two eqaulisers against us, we lead against Arsenal and of course gave away a two goal lead at Sunderland in the league. that's 6 games from our last 10 and the disapointing thing is many of the goals haven't been due to brilliant play from the oppositition, they've been sloppy defending and lapses of concentration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 the recent trend is not good though, lost at West Ham and Spurs after being in front, let norwich back into it when cruising and were hanging on a bit until the 4th goal. Stoke got two eqaulisers against us, we lead against Arsenal and of course gave away a two goal lead at Sunderland in the league. that's 6 games from our last 10 and the disapointing thing is many of the goals haven't been due to brilliant play from the oppositition, they've been sloppy defending and lapses of concentration. I think you just have to accept that defensively we are just not good enough, to correct that we need another top flight CB and a new LB, let Shaw play further forward because defensively he isn't anything special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 If we can't win 37% of the time when we go in front how do you expect us to win when we go behind ? Team needs serious overhaul, need more experience in the side. I have to admit it I watched Stoke yesterday and would have to admit I liked what I saw, then again I like winning, they'll probably be above us next season. Good defence, hard midfield, strikers who know what they have to do with the ball 8 yards out. An alternate argument is last season we were much worse, we lost somewhere between 25-30 points from winning positions, so that is progress at least. I can't for one minute agree with the rest of your post. It just doesn't make any sense. Team needs a serious over haul? Why? I don't know for certain, but I'd be surprised if you believed we were going to make the top positions this season. We are a mid table team, in mid table. The young players will be more experienced for this season, both the good games and bad. How exactly do you think these experienced players you want get there? They get experience from both winning and losing. How are their strikers any better than the options we have? JRod, Rickie and Adam have all scored more than their top scorer. Barring the exodus that people seem to be discussing, which I don't think will happen I am very confident that this team will finish above theirs. I think they will improve, but not that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 On the point of being "hard in midfield" if you are referring to yesterday, it is worth bearing in mind we were missing Morgan and Big Vic. I'm not saying we would have won yesterday if they we playing, but that is in my opinion a "harder" midfield that Cork and JWP, the latter is not a DM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 we have managed to get some good defeats this season, but while they are beneficial in themselves I'd like to see us get really smashed. Too many of these defeats have been tight games or by the odd goal, if we could get really raped, I mean like totally butt-****ed by 6 or 7 that would be so sweet! I would fancy us for champions league if we could get beat double figures. Gr8 experience for the lads IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 the recent trend is not good though, lost at West Ham and Spurs after being in front, let norwich back into it when cruising and were hanging on a bit until the 4th goal. Stoke got two eqaulisers against us, we lead against Arsenal and of course gave away a two goal lead at Sunderland in the league. that's 6 games from our last 10 and the disapointing thing is many of the goals haven't been due to brilliant play from the oppositition, they've been sloppy defending and lapses of concentration. Fair assessment. We aren't in great form at the minute, and that does need to be addressed. But over e season the record isn't as bad as is being suggested, and as bad as some (as I said, myself included) may have thought. It is also still an improvement from last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 I think you just have to accept that defensively we are just not good enough, to correct that we need another top flight CB and a new LB, let Shaw play further forward because defensively he isn't anything special. Earlier in the season, we were amongst the strongest defences in Europe. I agree completely the defence needs strengthening. But in my opinion a lot of issues of late have been injuries and struggling I to regain form. Lovren and Big Vic in particular. I also think a new GK is needed. I'm starting to think Boruc is liable for too many goals against, and possibly even some shakiness in the back line. You just never know when his next clanger is coming, and it's rarely a long way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 On the point of being "hard in midfield" if you are referring to yesterday, it is worth bearing in mind we were missing Morgan and Big Vic. I'm not saying we would have won yesterday if they we playing, but that is in my opinion a "harder" midfield that Cork and JWP, the latter is not a DM. And yet we started him in front of any other player yesterday, why do you think that was then. The obvious answer was as many said on the pre-match thread. Maya at the back and Lovren as a DM, he played there plenty of times for Lyon and does it well, that might have given us the solidity we needed but instead MP plays the wishy washy 5ft, 8 8 stone JWP against hard guys like Dembelé Bentaleb and Chadli. Sometimes I'm beginning to wonder if MP really, really knows what he's doing when we need alternative solutions. Going forward it's great, at the back not so much. There was no way JWP should have started as a DM yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 And yet we started him in front of any other player yesterday, why do you think that was then. The obvious answer was as many said on the pre-match thread. Maya at the back and Lovren as a DM, he played there plenty of times for Lyon and does it well, that might have given us the solidity we needed but instead MP plays the wishy washy 5ft, 8 8 stone JWP against hard guys like Dembelé Bentaleb and Chadli. Sometimes I'm beginning to wonder if MP really, really knows what he's doing when we need alternative solutions. Going forward it's great, at the back not so much. There was no way JWP should have started as a DM yesterday. Yep I found that decision surprising also. I would have thought even Davis would have been a better, not ideal choice there. Wasn't aware Lovren had played there either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 Fair assessment. We aren't in great form at the minute, and that does need to be addressed. But over e season the record isn't as bad as is being suggested, and as bad as some (as I said, myself included) may have thought. It is also still an improvement from last season. Over the season we've in the main been pretty good defensively, but like i said the recent trend hasn't been great and as i said some of the goals we've conceeded recently have been sloppy and due to individual errors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 Over the season we've in the main been pretty good defensively, but like i said the recent trend hasn't been great and as i said some of the goals we've conceeded recently have been sloppy and due to individual errors. Yep no arguments from me there. As I said above, I would like a new CB and GK in the summer. Think a fully fit again Vic would be helpful. The defence is on the whole pretty young too. Clyne 22, Chambers 19, Lovren 24, Shaw 18 - one would hope with more experience these errors will become less prevalent. That and a kick up the backside from the management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 C'mon, we both know you are easily smart enough to know that isn't what he means Mr. Whitey. Of course, but you don't want to make a habit of losing. What lessons did we learn from yesterday? “Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 Of course, but you don't want to make a habit of losing. What lessons did we learn from yesterday? probably the same one as we've not learnt all season, when you have fairly simple chances you just have to stick them away. Lallana is a great player but he does miss some sitters, could have put us 3-1 up yesterday and then they'd have been blown away. Just shoots straight at Lloris, Shaw does the same later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 A club will have been scouting Morgan, Shaw, Lallana and co for years. So they're not going to look at a couple of performances at the back end of the season to make their minds up. The fact is that the clubs probably know who they want, it's just a case of if they're willing to pay what we want - can't see us stubbornly turning down £25-30m for players. We're not big enough to be able to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webby Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 I think you just have to accept that defensively we are just not good enough, to correct that we need another top flight CB and a new LB, let Shaw play further forward because defensively he isn't anything special. And there was I thinking he wasn't that great going forward. Certainly not as good a crosser as bridge was when he was here. He'll get better though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 A club will have been scouting Morgan, Shaw, Lallana and co for years. So they're not going to look at a couple of performances at the back end of the season to make their minds up. The fact is that the clubs probably know who they want, it's just a case of if they're willing to pay what we want - can't see us stubbornly turning down £25-30m for players. We're not big enough to be able to do that. Might not even be anywhere near those fees, players could easily have release clauses, knowing Cortese though..... I can't see us getting more than 20 million for any player on our books just now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 And there was I thinking he wasn't that great going forward. Certainly not as good a crosser as bridge was when he was here. He'll get better though. He will get better, he's snatching at his final ball/shot just now, might help if he started futher forward instead of presenting himself around the penalty box after an 60 yard dash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 Might not even be anywhere near those fees, players could easily have release clauses, knowing Cortese though..... I can't see us getting more than 20 million for any player on our books just now. Lallana would and should go for excess of £20m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 I think you just have to accept that defensively we are just not good enough, to correct that we need another top flight CB and a new LB, let Shaw play further forward because defensively he isn't anything special. What are you on about? Shaw is excellent defensively - rarely gets beaten and is strong in the air. He might get caught out of position at times but that's something that can be taught and indeed may reflect MP's tactics/instructions given the lack of width further up the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 we have managed to get some good defeats this season, but while they are beneficial in themselves I'd like to see us get really smashed. Too many of these defeats have been tight games or by the odd goal, if we could get really raped, I mean like totally butt-****ed by 6 or 7 that would be so sweet! I would fancy us for champions league if we could get beat double figures. Gr8 experience for the lads IMO. It's about time we had a few sent off too. Not enough bans IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronCitySaint Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 Some have said losing is OK as long as they learn from it, but are they really learning from it? Last season there was a big deal made about the number of points lost from winning positions and Saints were the worst in the league in that for quite a while. Yesterday on the commentary here in the US they said that this season only West Ham had lost more points from winning positions than Saints. So it seems that the team are learning very little from losing if those stats are to be believed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 24 March, 2014 Share Posted 24 March, 2014 When it gets to this stage it can be beneficial to lose if it galvanises the team and leads to a win. A sequence of draws (as we had at the end of last season) can lead to complacency. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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