Schneiderlin wants England call

[Tokyo-Saint]

Damn you Farawaysaint!

[buctootim]

I wouldnt have a problem with Morgan playing for England. Its a bit marginal, but most of his professional career has been spent here. Lots of players for other teams are far more tenuous - qualified through grandparents despite never having been to the country or played there(eg Higginbotham Gibraltar and Cascarino Ireland)

[pap]

I wouldnt have a problem with Morgan playing for England. Its a bit marginal, but most of his professional career has been spent here. Lots of players for other teams are far more tenuous - qualified through grandparents despite never having been to the country or played there(eg Higginbotham Gibraltar and Cascarino Ireland)

 

I've had this debate in my own head. Is it nationality or the footballing framework that's important? Certainly you could argue that a great deal of Schneiderlin's development is down to his time in England. That's fair enough, but my fear is that Football Associations around the world will exploit this and leave international football meaning nothing.

 

I know the French and the Irish have benefited from the loose definition of nationality and have already muddied the waters, but as the originators of the game, not sure we have that option.

[Saint86]

He isn't eligible. As someone has already pointed out in the thread there is a home nations agreement. But hey, lets be guilty of what the media do and ignore that little fact.

 

Can someone please explain this agreement concisely for me.

[farawaysaint]

Can someone please explain this agreement concisely for me.

 

The smaller British nations were frightened that England would steal all their best players because of the better league and the 5 year ruling so England agreed to only play English players and signed something to this effect IIRC.

[Saint86]

Can someone please explain this agreement concisely for me.

 

Having just read into it, it would appear he can play for England, doesn't violate the home nations agreement and there is similar precedent set by a former saints player in 1998.

 

It won't happen though.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Yeah no one complained when we stole Le Tissier off France, despite him buggering off to France with a baguette in hand after playing golf in Stoneham every week.

[Monk]

Really rate Morgan, think he is exactly what England are missing in the CDM/CM role but;

 

-The rule is mad and should only apply if the player has lived in the country as an infant/child

-He's not even remotely English

-His international recognition should be with France but Didier is bit of a ****.

-I would be very surprised if the FA budged on their policy.

[jasoneuelllfanclub]

Really rate Morgan, think he is exactly what England are missing in the CDM/CM role but;

 

-The rule is mad and should only apply if the player has lived in the country as an infant/child

-He's not even remotely English

-His international recognition should be with France but Didier is bit of a ****.

-I would be very surprised if the FA budged on their policy.

 

Agree 100%

[tajjuk]

If it's good enough for the current World Champions..........

 

Diego Costa is a about as Spanish as I am, he's even played for Brazil internationally.

 

Not to mention Marcos Senna before him.

 

The there is half the German national team. *cough* polish *cough*.

 

Then all sorts of different people representing odd nations in the athletics.

 

And closer to home our very own English Cricket team containing Morgan, KP, etc.

 

I think it's up to him, if he wants to play football internationally and France are ignoring his clear talents then I'm pretty sure he would improve the current England team which in defensive midfield you have the options of average (Livermore, Huddlestone etc) or Old (Gerrard, Carrrick, Parker, Barry).

 

I for one would welcome him in the England team, couldn't care less if he's French, if he wants to play that is all that matters to me.

 

From those articles that is not clear and it may be more a of hint to Deschamps.

[Bearsy]

Having just read into it, it would appear he can play for England, doesn't violate the home nations agreement and there is similar precedent set by a former saints player in 1998.

 

It won't happen though.

 

i dunno anything bout the home nations agreement, but there is a rule that if you've played for a country in a competition match at any level including U21 or youth then ur done + declared. I think he played in la tournoi or something.

[Smirking_Saint]

Unless Ivory Coast, and Burundi have become part of South London, and West Midlands then I can't see that they should.

 

Both moved very young and educated, brought up as english citizens and so different to the situation in question ?

[Hopkins]

Having just read into it, it would appear he can play for England, doesn't violate the home nations agreement and there is similar precedent set by a former saints player in 1998.

 

It won't happen though.

 

He does violate the home nations agreement. You must have read it incorrectly. I'll summarise for you. This the agreement that was amended and approved by FIFA in June 2010.

 

The criteria for eligibility to represent a home nation is:

 

1. A Player who, under the terms of art. 5, is eligible to represent more than one Association on account of his nationality, may play in an international match for one of these Associations only if, in addition to having the relevant nationality, he fulfills at least one of the following conditions:

 

a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;

b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;

c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;

d) He has engaged in a minimum of five years education under the age of 18 within the territory of the relevant association.

 

— Home nations agreement

 

He doesn't fulfill any one of those conditions.

 

Further to this, I'm not sure how true this is, but if it is, it just makes an even bigger mockery of the media and their stupidity. Someone on another forum just pointed out this...

 

He falls short because he played for France in the 2006 UEFA European Under-17 Championship elite round. Since 2004 FIFA have required players to hold (be eligible for) the nationality of the nation they wish to change to at the time they play in their first game in an official competition. In other words, Schneiderlin would've needed British passport in March 2006 (when he played for France in an official competition for the first time).

 

Schneiderlin's case doesn't even reach the Home Nations Agreement, he falls short before it's even brought into the equation.

[scotty]

I think he should be able to play for England as long as he loses the French accent and proves that he hates the Germans.

[Window Cleaner]

The team that won France the world cup had a fair few 'non French' in it. In fact their most capped player was born in Pointe-à-Pitre.

 

 

Which was still in France last time I looked.

Anyway that's not the point, nationality is decided differently in France and all those born here are French unless they renounce nationality, used to be a bit more complicated when we still had national service because they had to do that to qualify and many of them didn't fancy it. Saw PSG U19s the other day, all of African descent every one of them.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Which was still in France last time I looked.

 

Nah, must be some mistake Papillon, it looks nice there.

[Hopkins]

I'd also like to point out that this isn't an agreement that we can just ignore (or sod, as someone put it earlier in the thread), it's approved and recognised by FIFA. Not only would it need all other home nations to agree to opt out but also FIFA would have to agree to it also.

 

I doubt either of those would happen due to

 

a) The other home nations wouldn't fancy England being able to cherry pick whoever the want.

b) The other home nations have explored the possibility of players like Nacho Novo representing them (Scotland obviously) and nobody agreed to it then.

c) FIFA I think would immediately frown upon it and start putting pressure on the home nations to become 1 international team and nobody would want that.

[JN9]

More than anything else, his accent is all wrong...

 

Perhaps if he worked on his 'Ampshire accent I'd accept him playing for England.

 

Actually, I reckon as long as he promises to use our slang he should be allowed in. Mush in a French accent is probably chuckleworthy...

 

chuckleworthy is a good word... perhaps I should have used it as my forum name...

[Window Cleaner]

He does violate the home nations agreement. You must have read it incorrectly. I'll summarise for you. This the agreement that was amended and approved by FIFA in June 2010.

 

The criteria for eligibility to represent a home nation is:

 

1. A Player who, under the terms of art. 5, is eligible to represent more than one Association on account of his nationality, may play in an international match for one of these Associations only if, in addition to having the relevant nationality, he fulfills at least one of the following conditions:

 

a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;

b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;

c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;

d) He has engaged in a minimum of five years education under the age of 18 within the territory of the relevant association.

 

— Home nations agreement

 

He doesn't fulfill any one of those conditions.

 

Further to this, I'm not sure how true this is, but if it is, it just makes an even bigger mockery of the media and their stupidity. Someone on another forum just pointed out this...

 

He falls short because he played for France in the 2006 UEFA European Under-17 Championship elite round. Since 2004 FIFA have required players to hold (be eligible for) the nationality of the nation they wish to change to at the time they play in their first game in an official competition. In other words, Schneiderlin would've needed British passport in March 2006 (when he played for France in an official competition for the first time).

 

Schneiderlin's case doesn't even reach the Home Nations Agreement, he falls short before it's even brought into the equation.

 

I don't think you understand what an official tournament means, we have loads of young french blokes who have played for

every Us level for France in official competitions and then who go off to play for their African homelands that they've never even been to before. Official tournament mean only senior level as far as I'm aware.

[farawaysaint]

Which was still in France last time I looked.

Anyway that's not the point, nationality is decided differently in France and all those born here are French unless they renounce nationality, used to be a bit more complicated when we still had national service because they had to do that to qualify and many of them didn't fancy it. Saw PSG U19s the other day, all of African descent every one of them.

 

That has its own football team, also "in" France is a stretch are the Falklands "in" England?

Edited 17 March, 2014 by farawaysaint

[View From The Top]

He's French, so no.

[Window Cleaner]

That has its own football team, also "in" France is a stretch are the Falklands "in" England?.

 

Guadeloupe,Reunion,Martinique and French Guyana are part of France, they might have their own teams but they don't play in official competitions. Point a Pitre is in France. They send MPs to the parliament and have exactly the same laws as the rest of the country, they are governed from Paris which is different to the Falklands I think.

Edited 17 March, 2014 by Window Cleaner

[Graffito]

I wouldnt have a problem with Morgan playing for England. Its a bit marginal, but most of his professional career has been spent here. Lots of players for other teams are far more tenuous - qualified through grandparents despite never having been to the country or played there(eg Higginbotham Gibraltar and Cascarino Ireland)

 

Cascarino had no family connection with Ireland whatever, as he confirmed in his autobiography years later. He qualified by having once gone on a stag party to Dublin.

[pap]

Guadeloupe,Reunion,Martinique and French Guyana are part of France, they might have their own teams but they don't play in official competitions. Point a Pitre is in France. They send MPs to the parliament and have exactly the same laws as the rest of the country, they are governed from Paris which is different to the Falklands I think.

 

Amazed to learn that myself today.

 

EU citizens can move there, right?

[Window Cleaner]

Amazed to learn that myself today.

 

EU citizens can move there, right?

 

 

Yep part of the EU, French Civil Servants even get a bonus for going there, wife did 3 years in Martinique in her younger days on double pay and less tax.

[pap]

Yep part of the EU, French Civil Servants even get a bonus for going there, wife did 3 years in Martinique in her younger days on double pay and less tax.

 

What the f**k have I been doing with my life?

[Window Cleaner]

What the f**k have I been doing with my life?

 

 

The islands are a notorious drag on our economy now actually, very high unemployment levels because well we can't all eat 3 tonnes of bananas a day. Heavily subsidised by the mainland and now it's got too expensive and unruly to even go there for your hols.

[david in sweden]

So Mo Farah and Kevin Pieterson shouldn't be allowed to represent their home either. I wonder how many Brits are of pure celtic blood....

 

I don't know how many generations we go back, but the most logical definition has to be the person's birthplace.

 

After which you could argue..... adoption as a baby, refugee status or qualification by marriage..but residential qualification ?..I don't know.

 

I've lived in Sweden for 30 years (this month). ..I was born in So'ton and I'm no less of a Saints fan now, than when I watched my first game aged 11.

 

.....and for what it's worth .....they can bury me with my British passport in my pocket.

 

I've every sympathy for Schneiderlin, he deserves to be capped, but I'm sure he wants to play for his homeland, and many foreigners would see it as more than a joke - especially if he scored in the WC Final.

[Window Cleaner]

I don't know how many generations we go back, but the most logical definition has to be the person's birthplace.

 

After which you could argue..... adoption as a baby, refugee status or qualification by marriage..but residential qualification ?..I don't know.

 

I've lived in Sweden for 30 years (this month). ..I was born in So'ton and I'm no less of a Saints fan now, than when I watched my first game aged 11.

 

.....and for what it's worth .....they can bury me with my British passport in my pocket.

 

I've every sympathy for Schneiderlin, he deserves to be capped, but I'm sure he wants to play for his homeland, and many foreigners would see it as more than a joke - especially if he scored in the WC Final.

 

 

The irony of the situation is that Morgan is being kept out of the French side by blokes who aren't really French, like Mavuba.

He only acquired the nationality in 2005, wasn't born here and has no French parents or grandparents. He's an Angolan refugeee I think, bit like Mo Farah (well not Angolan in that case) Matuidi might be in the same case I think, his parents are Angolans as well.

[Window Cleaner]

Paper ****** as usual then.

 

Here you go.

 

http://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Actualites/Schneiderlin-dement-pour-les-three-lions/449933

 

I'm sure most of you will be able to get the jist from your 3rd form(and beyond) French

[Tokyo-Saint]

I'll translate it with the help of Bill Gates.

 

While the British press ensures that Morgan Schneiderlin consider changing nationality to play for the England team after the World Cup if he is not selected with the team of France, in the middle of Southampton has denied these allegations. " I was asked this question : "It's been over six years since you play in England, so you can apply for a British passport Are you aware of.?" I just said: "I was already in spoken, so yes, I know. " And this quote, English newspapers have a section, has he explained. I never said I wanted to wait to ask the World British nationality . I just thought it was going to be hard to be in the list of Blues for the World Cup, I expected this list and that I hoped to be. That's all . " He who is considered one of the best places in the English league for two seasons, but has never been selected by Didier Deschamps, has " never spoken English passport . " It is said

[moonraker]

Almost since the advent of interantional sport nations have been represented by by sportsmen who dont meet the Birthpace approach (the born and bred argument). The oldest Rugby Fixture the calacutta cup England had a Captain Born in India andIrishman playing for them (also a lad from Fawley). I have no problem with non British born sportsmen and women representing Engalnd provided they are commited anglophiles. Didnt are own Sam Gallagher get called into the England Under-19s after switching allegiances from Scotland.

[david in sweden]

I'll translate it with the help of Bill Gates.

 

While the British press ensures that Morgan Schneiderlin consider changing nationality to play for the England team after the World Cup if he is not selected with the team of France, in the middle of Southampton has denied these allegations. " I was asked this question : "It's been over six years since you play in England, so you can apply for a British passport Are you aware of.?" I just said: "I was already in spoken, so yes, I know. " And this quote, English newspapers have a section, has he explained. I never said I wanted to wait to ask the World British nationality . I just thought it was going to be hard to be in the list of Blues for the World Cup, I expected this list and that I hoped to be. That's all . " He who is considered one of the best places in the English league for two seasons, but has never been selected by Didier Deschamps, has " never spoken English passport . " It is said

 

 

Mmm......so much for translation sites:facepalm:

[david in sweden]

The irony of the situation is that Morgan is being kept out of the French side by blokes who aren't really French, like Mavuba.

He only acquired the nationality in 2005, wasn't born here and has no French parents or grandparents. He's an Angolan refugeee I think, bit like Mo Farah (well not Angolan in that case) Matuidi might be in the same case I think, his parents are Angolans as well.

 

......and to think the only thing that we complain about is Mark Clattenburg !

[Chewy]

This whole nationality thing is a farce. I think there ought to be something put in place at maybe youth level that asks players to declare their nationality and that's it. Had I been in a position to choose, thanks to grandparent nationality etc I could have played for England, and either of the Ireland's. Had I then gone to play in another country for 5 years then I could have been eligible for wherever that is. But I'm english, and nothing is going to change that. Same as I'm not going to stop being a saints fan whatever happens.

 

Morgan is french. He knows it, we know it, and so his only option should be with France. Would he improve the England team? Yes. Is it a travesty he's not been called up to the french squad? Yes. Should he choose to take up english nationality just because he can (or can't, depending on the home nations agreement)? Hell no.

 

I do accept it's sometimes difficult to know where to draw the line (mo farah for example) but surely someone must feel a sense of nationality, and stick with it.

[sotonist]

This whole nationality thing is a farce. I think there ought to be something put in place at maybe youth level that asks players to declare their nationality and that's it. Had I been in a position to choose, thanks to grandparent nationality etc I could have played for England, and either of the Ireland's. Had I then gone to play in another country for 5 years then I could have been eligible for wherever that is. But I'm english, and nothing is going to change that. Same as I'm not going to stop being a saints fan whatever happens.

 

Morgan is french. He knows it, we know it, and so his only option should be with France. Would he improve the England team? Yes. Is it a travesty he's not been called up to the french squad? Yes. Should he choose to take up english nationality just because he can (or can't, depending on the home nations agreement)? Hell no.

 

I do accept it's sometimes difficult to know where to draw the line (mo farah for example) but surely someone must feel a sense of nationality, and stick with it.

that's a good way to give england a lot more depth. anybody with hopes of going to a world cup will double check they don't qualify to play for england before declaring themselves for any of the other home nations.

[Window Cleaner]

that's a good way to give england a lot more depth. anybody with hopes of going to a world cup will double check they don't qualify to play for england before declaring themselves for any of the other home nations.

 

But this is where England lose out often enough, you need to have a solid career to get into the England Senior side so unless you're a Luke Shaw or a Theo Walcott you probably don't get a call until you're well into your twenties. Wales,Scotland etc they take anyone with a pair of boots as soon as they can climb out of their pram by themselves and give them a run out in a meaningless WC qualifier against Gibraltar or something. Now I've no idea if Bale's 4 grandparents were all welsh or his parents or anything but it could well have been that he might have an England qualification somewhere but as he got sucked into the Wales set-up at an early age England lost out and he'll never play in a major international tournament.

[Charlie Wayman]

Let's hope he doesn't quit and go to Arsenal to get noticed across La Manche

[Window Cleaner]

Let's hope he doesn't quit and go to Arsenal to get noticed across La Manche

 

 

He can't just quit, Arsenal would have to come up with the money, which they weren't willing to do in January. They are just so cheapskate that they eventually signed Kim Kallstrom knowing full well he had a back injury that would keep him from playing for at least 2 months. Doesn't matter now though they're out of Europe.

[CWD]

If you consider yourself to be English then that's what you are in my opinion. But if you asked Morgan his nationality I am pretty sure his response would be "I'm French", which is the end of the conversation as far as I'm concerned.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Nice idea - just not going to happen anytime in a FA decision soon.

[Glasgow_Saint]

Morgan is a superb player and seems a great guy.

 

Id love to see him playing for England, but it wont happen

[shurlock]

Morgan is a superb player and seems a great guy.

 

Id love to see him playing for England, but it wont happen

 

I would have loved to see him play at Sunderland.

Edited 17 March, 2014 by shurlock

[Grey Crab]

I also met him quite a few years ago and he was an extremely friendly man.

 

He thought you were a c*nt.

[Batman]

He thought you were a c*nt.

 

[Saint Billy]

If cricket can do it, rugby can do it, why cant football?

[Batman]

If cricket can do it, rugby can do it, why cant football?

 

football does. England do not, it seems

diego costa is now playing for spain!!!

[Goatboy]

football does. England do not, it seems

diego costa is now playing for spain!!!

 

Isn't that where the Malaysian Plane is?

[Lou]

Hopkins is correct. I've been in contact with FIFA in the past and this is legitimate information.

 

I'm aware that the Daily Mail journalist who wrote the story insists he is correct because he has spoken to someone at the FA and they cited Victor Moses changing switching association to Nigeria after playing for the England U21s, but he (they?) are wrong in assuming that Morgan Schneiderlin is in the same situation as Victor Moses was. Victor Moses met at least one of the criteria to play for Nigeria at the time he played for England U21s. In Moses' specific case, he was born in Nigeria to Nigerian parents whose parents were also Nigerian. The African international players who played for France at youth level are in similar situations.

 

Schneiderlin is ruled out even before the Home Nations Agreement is needed.

 

There are two criteria that he must meet to be eligible for England, this is the relevant part of the Eligibility Criteria from the 2013 FIFA Statutes:

 

66 III. ELIGIBILITY TO PLAY FOR REPRESENTATIVE TEAMS

 

a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at “A” international level for his current Association,

 

Schneiderlin would be eligible for England as he meets this criteria, he hasn't played for France at "A" international level. However he doesn't meet the second criteria:

 

and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.

 

This is where he Schneiderlin does not meet the criteria to change national association, this part doesn't specify that it must be "A" international level, but refers to an "international match". He first played in an official competition (UEFA Under 17 Championship Elite Round) for his current Association (France) and wasn't eligible to play for England at the time (March 2006).

 

It's on page 65 of the FIFA Statutes linked below if anyone's interested.

 

Definitions

 

International Match: a match between two teams (either two Representative Teams, two Club Teams, two Scratch Teams, one Representative Team and

one Club Team, or a Representative Team or Club Team and a Scratch Team) belonging to different Members. Any competition that may include an

International Match shall be subject to these regulations. For the purpose of authorisation, any match or competition played between two teams

belonging to the same Member but in a Third Country shall be recognised as an International Match.

 

International “A” Match: a match arranged by two Members and for which both Members field their first Representative Team (“A” Representative Team).

 

Are defined here: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/01/49/00/38/regulations_gov_international_matches_2011.pdf (2011 Regulations for Governing International Matches, the most recent)

 

and

 

Association: a football association recognised by FIFA. It is a member of FIFA, unless a different meaning is evident from the context.

 

Confederation:a group of Associations recognised by FIFA that belong to the same continent (or assimilable geographic region).

 

Official competition: a competition for representative teams organised by FIFA or any Confederation.

 

Are defined here: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/AFFederation/Generic/02/14/97/88/FIFAStatuten2013_E_Neutral.pdf (2013 Edition of the FIFA Statutes, the most recent)

 

 

Players also affected:

 

• Adama Traore, a former Ivorian youth international wanted to play for Australia. The FFA released a statement saying that he was unable to play for them as he played for Ivory Coast prior to gaining Australian citizenship. [1]
  
• Rubens Sambueza, a former Argentine youth international wanted to play for Mexico. FIFA rejected his application as he played for Argentina when he didn't have Mexican nationality.[2]
  
• Mikel Arteta, the British press longed for the former Spanish U16 international to be involved in the England national team (conveniently forgetting about the Home Nations Agreement). Arteta was ruled out for the same reason as Schneiderlin, Arteta had played in the UEFA U16 Championship in 1999. [3]
  

[trousers]

...

Edited 18 March, 2014 by trousers
Trousers being a clot as per usual