passing across own goalmouth

[toe_punt]

I don't see my son's U16 side do what Fonte and Guly did today.

 

Passing a ball casually across your own goalmouth is the most basic defensive no-no there is.

 

I can forgive Fonte because he's put in some pretty good shifts this year, but Guly repeating the error one minute later?

Hopefully that's the last time we ever see Guly in a Saints shirt.

[doddisalegend]

I don't see my son's U16 side do what Fonte and Guly did today.

 

Passing a ball casually across your own goalmouth is the most basic defensive no-no there is.

 

I can forgive Fonte because he's put in some pretty good shifts this year, but Guly repeating the error one minute later?

Hopefully that's the last time we ever see Guly in a Saints shirt.

 

 

 

Well with Gaston, Jack and Victor injured. JWP being off the pace Guly might have to play a few more times before the end of the season.....

[Barry the Badger]

I don't see my son's U16 side do what Fonte and Guly did today.

 

Passing a ball casually across your own goalmouth is the most basic defensive no-no there is.

 

I can forgive Fonte because he's put in some pretty good shifts this year, but Guly repeating the error one minute later?

Hopefully that's the last time we ever see Guly in a Saints shirt.

 

So you're saying that of two players who made similar mistakes, you're judging one more harshly than the other.

 

That seems fair of you.

 

Fonte's mistake was much worse btw.

[woodsaint]

I don't see my son's U16 side do what Fonte and Guly did today.

 

Passing a ball casually across your own goalmouth is the most basic defensive no-no there is.

 

I can forgive Fonte because he's put in some pretty good shifts this year, but Guly repeating the error one minute later?

Hopefully that's the last time we ever see Guly in a Saints shirt.

 

Fontes mistake was much worse. Yes Guly gave it away, but a tackle should have been made at the edge of the box before the pass to Hooper, then Boruc should not be palming it back out into danger, gk basics and then who is following Snodgrass in? Bad pass by Guly but we could easily have prevented the goal after the ball was given away.

[Olallana]

Gulys pass was basically at the mid circle....?

[Saints boy in Leeds]

I don't see my son's U16 side do what Fonte and Guly did today.

 

Passing a ball casually across your own goalmouth is the most basic defensive no-no there is.

 

I can forgive Fonte because he's put in some pretty good shifts this year, but Guly repeating the error one minute later?

Hopefully that's the last time we ever see Guly in a Saints shirt.

 

They're both human, move on mate.

[Mowgli]

Is that the same Guly heavily involved in the third saints goal?

 

I might have suggested it was worth talking about had we dropped 2 points but as Poch himself said, those sort of mistakes show the risk in our adopted style of play. Still need to learn from them though. If anything I would suggest that Boruc having an off day contributed more to the nervous ending. Not criticising though - everyone has an off day

[Saint_clark]

Except neither passes were across the goal mouth at all.

[Batman]

Except neither passes were across the goal mouth at all.

 

indeed.

[Whitey Grandad]

Gulys pass was basically at the mid circle....?

 

No, it was a few yards upfield from the 'D' and the Norwich player had a clear run on goal.

 

Fonte's was just a sloppy pass back towards goal that he played without looking.

[Batman]

No, it was a few yards upfield from the 'D' and the Norwich player had a clear run on goal.

 

Fonte's was just a sloppy pass back towards goal that he played without looking.

 

it clearly isnt. its just been on telly

[eelpie]

I don't see my son's U16 side do what Fonte and Guly did today.

 

Passing a ball casually across your own goalmouth is the most basic defensive no-no there is.

 

I can forgive Fonte because he's put in some pretty good shifts this year, but Guly repeating the error one minute later?

Hopefully that's the last time we ever see Guly in a Saints shirt.

 

It's a standard Saints tactic that our defences been doing for years. Why?

[Hopkins]

Neither were passes across the goal mouth.

Fonte's much worse than Guly's.

Your sons U16 team are not as good as our first team.

It's not the biggest defensive no no there is, that's a myth and incredibly outdated.

It's the way we play, it benefits us more than it harms us, get used to it, it's going to happen.

 

Apart from that, good post.

[lambjo1976]

There was a number of times in the first half where we played it out from the box and nearly got punished.

Boruc had a bad day, his kicking from goal was woeful. Still think he is good for another season.

[Bwanamakubwa]

Neither were passes across the goal mouth.

Fonte's much worse than Guly's.

Your sons U16 team are not as good as our first team.

It's not the biggest defensive no no there is, that's a myth and incredibly outdated.

It's the way we play, it benefits us more than it harms us, get used to it, it's going to happen.

 

Apart from that, good post.

 

It's a high risk strategy and the way we play, creates space all over the pitch. If the opposition press they commit 4 players forward who are out of the game. What we did less yesterday when we were pressed was simply go back to boruc to go long... perhaps because of his assumed injury.

 

If we go long and straight direct from goal kicks they will almost certainly win the first ball, meaning a battle for the second ball. It's about possession football and overall is easier on the eye and more effective than the alternative

[Saint Charlie]

The thing that made the Guly one worse was the mental aspect of doing it just after conceding the first goal through a woeful pass.

 

Surely he should be more alert in that situation. Yes he assisted for the third, but in the main he showed no tempo or urgency and the pass IMO summed it up.

 

He is undoubtedly very lucky to still get on the pitch in a PL game as has never really made any contdibution to us getting a result at this level.

 

Was far, far too casual yesterday compared to the team style.

[70's Mike]

problem is when Lambert does not play, or plays in the deeper role, pumping it forward is counter productive because it comes straight back.

But what happened yesterday was not about passing it across goal mouth but about passing it without looking

[DuncanRG]

Guly was probably sillier for trying a showboating outside-of-the-foot pass when there was a simple sidefoot in front of him.

[St_Tel49]

problem is when Lambert does not play, or plays in the deeper role, pumping it forward is counter productive because it comes straight back.

But what happened yesterday was not about passing it across goal mouth but about passing it without looking

This. And I might add that singling Guly out is just stupid. It was happening all game - casual passes without an awareness of where the opposition were. I am just surprised that we did not get punished for it until nearly the end of the game.

[sydneysaint17]

Given the position we are in, I would much rather see some of the academy kids coming off the bench for the last 10 minutes of a game if required. Gulys not getting a new contract and so far the academy boys have done very well indeed!

[melmacian_saint]

In all fairness, how many times this season have we seen our defenders (CBs, FBs and Keeper) play dangerous passes towards our more defensive midfielder?

 

Many times and we got away with it far many times.

 

It's a tactical option which is risky in a high-tempo game like the English one, and when a team is sitting pretty on the scoreboard, defensive possession is one of the first set of movements where the players become complacent. It was Fonte but it could've been Lovren, JWP, Shaw or Clyne or especially considering his feet game yesterday Boruc!

 

One goal is not a problem. But when someone else does exactly the same thing a minute later, that one is not an acceptable mistake.

[Wes Tender]

The OP is right to highlight the problems we caused ourselves by passing the ball around at the back and it was only a matter of time before we were punished for it. I mentioned this in my post on the match thread and would have expected Pochettino to get them to stop it at his half-time talk. But he obviously didn't, or the players weren't listening, because they just carried on in their own merry little careless way and sure enough we did get punished. To do it once and concede was bad enough, but to do it again almost immediately afterwards was inexcusable.

 

Fair enough to pass the ball around the back, waiting for an opening upfield to exploit with a pass, in the meantime hoping to draw their players forward and create open spaces upfield for us. But why do we do it when they already have attackers upfield ready to close us down immediately and with the potential to pounce on any loose ball, or to win a 50/50 tackle? When that situation arises, the solution is to get the ball forward.

 

Both goals yesterday were caused by us faffing about at the back and both were totally unavoidable.

[Batman]

Guly was by the centre circle

 

Hardly call that messing about at the back

[Scudamore]

So no sideways passing in our own half? Got it. May have the wrong manager for that particular brand of football.

[Saint Charlie]

Guly was by the centre circle

 

Hardly call that messing about at the back

 

He was the last player before the two centre backs so certainly not an area to play such a careless pass in.

 

Especially after conceding via a poor pass 30 seconds before. It was very poor.

[Wes Tender]

So no sideways passing in our own half? Got it. May have the wrong manager for that particular brand of football.

 

Sideways and back passing are pefectly acceptable under some circumstances. By all means keep possession when you are ahead or not chasing the game. Frustrate the other team and draw them forward if they seek to regain possession and wait for that tactic to create spaces upfield that can be exploited.

 

But to have passages of play where the ball is passed forwards, then back, then sideways, when all the time our space and players are steadily being closed down at the back is just inviting disaster sooner or later. For crissakes, it's the tactic we use on rivals, close down space high up the field and gain possession in dangerous areas. A bit ironic that yesterday Norwich got both their goals from employing our tactics. And I was full of admiration for them when they had scored the two goals and had us on the rack, for they way that they got the ball into our box at every opportunity, putting immense pressure on our defence. OK, there was the risk that we would hit them on the break, as we did, but it was a gamble worth taking for them, as it was either go for it full tilt, or lose anyway. When we are behind in a match, we still try too often to pass the ball into the net, allowing time for the defence to get back in numbers.

[Monk]

I don't see my son's U16 side do what Fonte and Guly did today.

 

Passing a ball casually across your own goalmouth is the most basic defensive no-no there is.

 

I can forgive Fonte because he's put in some pretty good shifts this year, but Guly repeating the error one minute later?

Hopefully that's the last time we ever see Guly in a Saints shirt.

 

Please return to the pre-historic ages.

[corky morris]

Exactly!

 

Given the position we are in, I would much rather see some of the academy kids coming off the bench for the last 10 minutes of a game if required. Gulys not getting a new contract and so far the academy boys have done very well indeed!

[Dr Who?]

It really is a school boy error and one of the first things you are told not to do!

[Dr Who?]

So no sideways passing in our own half? Got it. May have the wrong manager for that particular brand of football.

 

Not right in front of your area, playing with 2 at the back!

[Dr Who?]

Given the position we are in, I would much rather see some of the academy kids coming off the bench for the last 10 minutes of a game if required. Gulys not getting a new contract and so far the academy boys have done very well indeed!

 

It seems that everyone at the club and most supporters want him to get a goal before he leaves. If we are 3-0 or comfortable at home and get a pen, he will take it.

[Whitey Grandad]

it clearly isnt. its just been on telly

 

You're right, of course, I remembered it as being 10 yards nearer our goal. It was still a crap attempt at a short pass that left us exposed at the back. There were several opportunities to retrieve the situation even after that.

[Bearsy]

P*ssing across ur own mouth is as biologically difficult as it is unwise, imo. I wouldn't even attempt it.

[Barry the Badger]

It really is a school boy error and one of the first things you are told not to do!

 

It's one of the first things you are told not to do if you are a bit **** at football and not able to be relied upon to make accurate passes.

 

Premier League footballers are not told to avoid passing across the defence, they are told to maintain possession.

 

Brendan Rogers got quite a lot of stick for this, I can't remember if it was Liverpool or Swansea had let in a few in this way, he put up an excellent argument for it being generally productive despite the inevitable odd goal you will give away trying. He's not doing too badly now is he?

[Minty]

For me, yesterdays game highlighted how we miss Corks control and awareness in that position. He rarely gives the ball away, and is often put under a lot of pressure in that same position, yet consistently shows supreme awareness of his own teammates and opposition players around in to keep the ball moving and hold possession.

 

JWP did ok yesterday and he will continue to get better, but Cork is exceptional in that role, so we missed him. For all that Wanyama gives us, Cork is the better option for us IMO.

 

That said, the first goal conceded yesterday was clearly down to Fonte's rushed wayward pass and it didn't matter who was playing. As others have said, the second goal could've been prevented even after Guly gave it away. It was a loose pass, but one he should've made, and relatively low risk... he just ballsed it up. But after that we didn't track the runners very well at all even then Snodgrass did well/got a bit lucky to score from where he was... Boruc will be disappointed.

 

All in all it will probably do us some good to focus minds a bit but we need to stick with our philosophy... just as Barry highlights Rogers had said. We just make sure the players are good enough to carry it out. And most of the time we are. You don't make progress without the odd setback along the way.

[Monk]

I can happily show you a number of grassroots/academy teams that can play around their own penalty area at the correct time from U8's - U18's.

 

I encourage my current team to do it when its appropriate.

[Whitey Grandad]

I can happily show you a number of grassroots/academy teams that can play around their own penalty area at the correct time from U8's - U18's.

 

I encourage my current team to do it when its appropriate.

 

It's a common style of play but it doesn't half make for some boring football. Until somebody f*cks up, that is.

[Monk]

[video=youtube;l7F5wrO-PFE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7F5wrO-PFE

[Minty]

It's a common style of play but it doesn't half make for some boring football. Until somebody f*cks up, that is.

 

Sorry, don't agree with that at all. How does keeping possession = boring football? It just means keeping possession!

 

What a team then does with it is secondary. Some teams keep it far too long and don't get anywhere, others try to force an opening too soon and lose the ball, some rely on individual players to unlock the door, others rely on quick interplay and good movement to create space... and there's plenty of other things that teams do or don't do with the ball.

 

Yes, keeping possession and not doing anything productive with it can be boring, but keeping possession in itself is not boring.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Sorry, don't agree with that at all. How does keeping possession = boring football? It just means keeping possession!

 

What a team then does with it is secondary. Some teams keep it far too long and don't get anywhere, others try to force an opening too soon and lose the ball, some rely on individual players to unlock the door, others rely on quick interplay and good movement to create space... and there's plenty of other things that teams do or don't do with the ball.

 

Yes, keeping possession and not doing anything productive with it can be boring, but keeping possession in itself is not boring.

 

They should just GET IT FORRRRRWWWWWAAAAAAARRRRRDDDDD!!!!!!!!!! :x

[Whitey Grandad]

Sorry, don't agree with that at all. How does keeping possession = boring football? It just means keeping possession!

 

What a team then does with it is secondary. Some teams keep it far too long and don't get anywhere, others try to force an opening too soon and lose the ball, some rely on individual players to unlock the door, others rely on quick interplay and good movement to create space... and there's plenty of other things that teams do or don't do with the ball.

 

Yes, keeping possession and not doing anything productive with it can be boring, but keeping possession in itself is not boring.

 

The first half on Saturday was an example of what I was referring to. There were extended periods of endless passing the ball across the back four and back again with no attempt at forward passes which made the football tediously one-dimensional, indeed some players didn't even take the time to look for a forward pass.

 

They should just GET IT FORRRRRWWWWWAAAAAAARRRRRDDDDD!!!!!!!!!! :x

 

Not at any cost, certainly, but as a minimum I believe that there should always be some intent to get the ball further up the pitch. There are times when the ball has to be passed backwards in order to look for a better angle but often this happens when there appear to be possibilities further forward. How many times this season have we been beaten when we've had much higher possession percentages and the opposition have only had two or three chances but have scored from all of them?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Sorry WG - it was a very tongue-in-cheek post. I was very much teasing.

 

FWIW I like the possession approach.

 

I always enjoyed watching Spain/Barca passing teams to death, chasing the ball for 90 mins until they are practically out on their feet. You could see Arsenal players completely out on their feet last week against Bayern - that was due to that approach.

 

Obviously, we are not that good at it, not even close - that is not what I am claiming. But I do enjoy that style of play. That's not to say it is perfect, or isn't with out it's drawbacks, but there are positives to it as well.

 

It's like any tactic/approach really they all have upsides and flaws. Personally, I am very happy with this philosophy, including the possession approach, and the playing it out from the back. Yes, it is at times dangerous, but I really enjoy watching us boss games, controlling the ball for 70% of the game.

[Whitey Grandad]

Sorry WG - it was a very tongue-in-cheek post. I was very much teasing.

 

FWIW I like the possession approach.

 

I always enjoyed watching Spain/Barca passing teams to death, chasing the ball for 90 mins until they are practically out on their feet. You could see Arsenal players completely out on their feet last week against Bayern - that was due to that approach.

 

Obviously, we are not that good at it, not even close - that is not what I am claiming. But I do enjoy that style of play. That's not to say it is perfect, or isn't with out it's drawbacks, but there are positives to it as well.

 

It's like any tactic/approach really they all have upsides and flaws. Personally, I am very happy with this philosophy, including the possession approach, and the playing it out from the back. Yes, it is at times dangerous, but I really enjoy watching us boss games, controlling the ball for 70% of the game.

 

No need to apologise, KRG, it's a perfectly valid comment. I don't mind the passing it about amongst ourselves so much as the pass it across the back and wait for half-time that we had against Norwich. If the opposition aren't prepared to play ball and take the bait then it all becomes a rather pointless exercise. It is supposed to be an entertainment after all.

[Monk]

To be honest I think (I hope) some people are taking the majority of posts out of context. It's not that maintaining possession isn't beneficial, I again assume people are getting frustrated of the lack of 'line penetrating' passes.

 

There have been a number of games when we haven't played a penetrating pass against the line. To be fair it is what Gaston is superb at and we saw it with our first goal.

 

The reason most teams maintain possession around their own area(or high defensive line) is to draw any initial press from the opposition and take out each line (attacking - strikers, wingers and holding players CDMs,CMs) with no more than two passes. It doesn't always work and you can now see Barcelona play a number of diagonal balls to cut out the first pressing line.

[angelman]

There was a number of times in the first half where we played it out from the box and nearly got punished.

Boruc had a bad day, his kicking from goal was woeful. Still think he is good for another season.

 

TBH this playing short from the back has been a bit dodgy all season. We should have been punished in the first half vs Norwich yet persist with it. Now I'm fairly pessimistic when watching (like turning to my neighbour after 83 minutes and asking when he thought it safe that we were going to win - was slightly tongue in cheek at 3-0 with 7 mins to go!!), but my old man is far worse, esp now he has the beginnings of dementia. I had to keep on telling him that it was good to play out from the back, but really he has a point. While there is an ethos to build the attacks from the back, sometimes we just **** around far too much. In this league, you make a mistake and chances are you get punished for it (and we are much better at punishing this season).

 

Coupled to the crap kicking display, I got thinking whether it might not be good to give Gazza the gloves for the rest of the season. I agree that Boruc might be good for another season, but he isn't the future. He has made mistakes, and made some world class saves. We missed him when he was injured which I guess is the real test of his value. But....I would like to see Gazza for the last 8 games.

[Barry the Badger]

...I would like to see Gazza for the last 8 games.

 

Dear god no. Boruc at 50% is better than Gazza at 100%.

[Batman]

why see gazza.

he has had two longish spells in the team and is no way good enough. making the same mistakes over and over

[Bad Wolf]

Other way round for me. I can forgive Guly but not Fonte. Fonte is a CB, that's his position. He should know better.

[Barry the Badger]

. It is supposed to be an entertainment after all.

 

Maybe I can help you with this.

 

Fiotball is a sport, it's not "meant to be an entertainment". You are paying to witness a sporting event, and of course it's nice when it's entertaining, but it's a sport and is primarily about winning.

 

Going to the theatre is entertainment, there's no focus on winning, just on keeping the audience entertained.

 

Athletics = sport

Cinema = entertainment

Snooker = sport

Music gig = entertainment

 

Is that helpful?

[Wes Tender]

People go to watch all of those events to be entertained, therefore they are entertainment events. Simple really. Whether they are sports or other forms of entertainment, they still remain varieties of entertainment events, comprising people mostly sat in paid for seats to watch them.