Les Reed on The Footballers' Football Show tonight (7pm & 11pm - SS1)

[dubai_phil]

I would perhaps instinctively agree with those that suggest we should be loaning out the youngsters.

 

However, it is hard to argue with LR's point of Luke Shaw, James WP, Callum Chambers having not been out on loan. It's certainly not hurt them - they have all taken to first-team duties, at Premier League level, like fish to water. I guess it depends on the set-up behind the scenes. Which is clearly something we are doing well at the moment, both under LR and prior to that.

 

Where's our resident expert telling us LR should be "no where near a football club"?

 

What a shame we don't have some form of competitive first team matches where we can plan for the future and give the new crop of youngsters the chance to get experience and show them a path to proper 1st Team football.

 

What a shame we have to take the Cup Competitions so seriously..............

[Sour Mash]

Exactly so - it's a different philosophy. Different, that is, to the philosophy (if that's the word) that's produced a staggeringly poor quality of footballer in England compared with the production lines in Spain, Germany, Holland, Brazil, Argentina, and many more. It's a measure of how stubborn this lame 'loan-'em-out-to-toughen-'em-up' mantra is that it gets trotted out on this thread, on this forum, at this club.

England has produced plenty of world class players over the years, so while it's certainly good that improvements are made to the system, we'vestill been top 10 in the world. I don't think any one on this thread has suggested the purpose of loaning players out is to "toughen em up", quite a simplistic, black and white view.

[Sour Mash]

What a shame we don't have some form of competitive first team matches where we can plan for the future and give the new crop of youngsters the chance to get experience and show them a path to proper 1st Team football.

 

What a shame we have to take the Cup Competitions so seriously..............

How many youngsters got a good run out in the two cup games that we lost? Great development process for KelvinDavis, Guly Do Prado and Jos Hooiveld maybe.

[dubai_phil]

How many youngsters got a good run out in the two cup games that we lost? Great development process for KelvinDavis, Guly Do Prado and Jos Hooiveld maybe.

 

Yeah who were this year's cover players.

 

Maybe next year Cropper, Stephens, Turnbull, Reed & McQueen will fill those roles? What is very clear from the interview is that the project means a process which means things happen in certain ways for reasons WITH AN EYE ON THE FUTURE.

 

(Of course equally next year it may be the only way that Maya, SRL, Davis & Boruc get any game time IF we bring in outsiders)

[melmacian_saint]

Whilst I agree with Les' point about nurturing them in-house, I can't help but look at the two most prominent examples in European football when it gets to talent: Spain and Germany.

 

And forget your super-powers, have a look at your Bremens, Athletics, Sevillas, Valencias or Leverkusens.

 

They all produce homegrown talent, AND they all have a B team that competes in the football pyramid in the country. If anything, it combines both the nurturing, in-house preparation side and the open, competitive environment that many claim is an issue with British young talent.

 

In Spain, these are allowed to go as far up as the 2nd Division (i.e. the Championship). While I think this is too far up, most compete in the closest non-professional/semi-professional level (the 2nd Division B, read League One).

In Germany, I'm not sure how far up the ranks they are allowed to go but I believe most compete in the Regional leagues. I think this would probably be the best scenario for our clubs. Perhaps we could establish a "ceiling" just before the Football Conference, and allow B teams to compete up to level 7. Or maybe at county level, as this would have less implications for the national pyramid.

 

Whatever we do, I believe this model is the one we should follow. Not create closed, reserve-only leagues where competitiveness is hindered considerably by the objective of most teams, which is little more than squad and player rotation, or the similar nature of the opposition they face every week.

[Sour Mash]

Yeah who were this year's cover players.

 

Maybe next year Cropper, Stephens, Turnbull, Reed & McQueen will fill those roles? What is very clear from the interview is that the project means a process which means things happen in certain ways for reasons WITH AN EYE ON THE FUTURE.

 

(Of course equally next year it may be the only way that Maya, SRL, Davis & Boruc get any game time IF we bring in outsiders)

It's a lovely idea theoretically, difficult to implement fully in a team that is also successful.

[holepuncture]

Whilst I agree with Les' point about nurturing them in-house, I can't help but look at the two most prominent examples in European football when it gets to talent: Spain and Germany.

 

And forget your super-powers, have a look at your Bremens, Athletics, Sevillas, Valencias or Leverkusens.

 

They all produce homegrown talent, AND they all have a B team that competes in the football pyramid in the country. If anything, it combines both the nurturing, in-house preparation side and the open, competitive environment that many claim is an issue with British young talent.

 

In Spain, these are allowed to go as far up as the 2nd Division (i.e. the Championship). While I think this is too far up, most compete in the closest non-professional/semi-professional level (the 2nd Division B, read League One).

In Germany, I'm not sure how far up the ranks they are allowed to go but I believe most compete in the Regional leagues. I think this would probably be the best scenario for our clubs. Perhaps we could establish a "ceiling" just before the Football Conference, and allow B teams to compete up to level 7. Or maybe at county level, as this would have less implications for the national pyramid.

 

Whatever we do, I believe this model is the one we should follow. Not create closed, reserve-only leagues where competitiveness is hindered considerably by the objective of most teams, which is little more than squad and player rotation, or the similar nature of the opposition they face every week.

 

Reed was in agreement on the idea of a proper B league.

 

I agreed with his argument, that a club should not spend many years and large amounts of money & resources building up a player from a young age, only to farm out your most promising talent to a lower league club, where you have no real control anymore. I guess it would be like changing schools after five years to complete your final term, different teachers, environment etc.

 

I thought Reed was excellent in an interesting debate.

[gogo_saint]

Really interesting, thanks for posting that. Very reassuring and makes for very positive and pleasing reading. I don't think our youngsters would gain anything playing in a B team in conference football or below. Inwould even say the same about league two. The pitches alone aren't condusive to passing the ball for the winter months and you're relying on other managers and coaches too much. Can see it working for some players though, and hopefully mayuka's loan spell will help him. However, I have to say whatever we're doing at the moment - let's keep doing it. We're on a very very good run of producing talent currently and long may it continue. He clearly knows what he's doing. Very happy.

[pap]

Link to the audio podcast version:-

 

http://www.skysports.com/podcast/0,20494,26960,00.html

[Snopper]

Link to the audio podcast version:-

 

http://www.skysports.com/podcast/0,20494,26960,00.html

 

Many thanks for posting this link. Fascinating stuff.

[JackanorySFC]

First time I've seem Reed interviewed/ part of a round table discussion like this. Have to say I was pleasantly impressed, articulate, knowledgeable and persuasive in his arguments. A really good ambassador for Southampton FC and our philosophy.

 

I was won over by his arguments re loaning out players, and that is as a family member (on my missus' side) of one of our current U21 squad that prob' won't make it. He and his parents agree SFC is the best place for him, not just on the pitch but off it. If he doesn't make it as a player the club have said they will support him through Uni' to become a physio. According to his Mum and Dad there aren't any other clubs that would do that. He would rather try and make it as a Southampton player along with his mates that have already made it or are almost there, than go to a lower league club with inferior facilities, medical team, playing style and all whilst away from his family/ lodge. This group of lads have been together since little kids, Southampton have created an environment that the players, staff and Management are all clearly positive about and want to succeed. With this in mind, and what my guy in the U21's has told me, means there is no chance we will sell Chambers/ Shaw, JWP, Lallana etc unless KL wants the money. They don't want to go. Les Reed deserves credit for his part in that, not something I thought I'd say a few years ago but hey, we all make mistakes and need to admit when we are wrong.

 

Up the Saints!

[stevegrant]

For those with Sky, it's also available On Demand

[washsaint]

Great post jackanory and really interesting input "from the inside". Really hope it all continues to hang together as we should only improve as the youngsters get more experienced.

 

Truly is an exciting time to be a Saints fan - as the future looks very bright with some of the Academy prospects that appear to be coming through.

 

All credit to everyone concerned with creating the "Southampton way": including those no longer at the club.

 

We appear to be a credit to football and other teams could do well to learn from the "Southampton way"

[dubai_phil]

Hugh H Jorgan ‏@hughjorgan_14 8h Ha ha laughing at #saintsfc fans thinking their great when they've just bought foreigners like JayJay Rodriguez and Alain Lalllana.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Hugh H Jorgan ‏@hughjorgan_14 8h Ha ha laughing at #saintsfc fans thinking their great when they've just bought foreigners like JayJay Rodriguez and Alain Lalllana.

 

Looking at his feed, I'm not certain he is serious.

[CB Fry]

Looking at his feed, I'm not certain he is serious.

 

The renowned Hugh Jorgan not serious? Unlikely.

[Fowllyd]

The renowned Hugh Jorgan not serious? Unlikely.

 

[sotonist]

condensed point: the club don't intend to stockpile players who don't stand a chance of first team football.

 

that means if we do see players going out on loan it's with a view to moving them on. JWP's mooted loan was probably his own idea, similar to his training secretly with havant and waterloovile.

[Under Weststand]

Recorded it this morning, just watched it and found it very interesting. I can see both sides of the debate on the show, but we obviously have a very strong philosophy on how to develop our youngsters. The system (pathway) giving the young players the ability to drop straight into a system they are comfortable with. Les Reed surprised me, haven't been sure about him but must admit he impressed me, clear concise and have to agree with his stance on the way we do things, not loaning out players to lower leagues as this doesn't prepare them for the premier league. I love to see our own youngsters coming through and thriving on the big stage, long may it continue.

[pap]

I listened to this twice during the course of the day as background noise. Les Reed came across very well, and it looks like we are well set up for this Premier League B thing if it gets some proper promotion. Marketed properly, it could be the UK equivalent of College Football over in the US, or potentially better. Most College Football fans actually went to the "school" of the team they support. Premier League B wouldn't necessarily have that constraint. The Premier League could put real money behind this idea and bill the B games as a support act for the real thing. It's a belief and presentation thing, really. As a Saints fan, I'd much rather be tuning in to watch our youth team on a Friday night than a Championship game.

[The Kraken]

Am I the only one that thinks a B league might not necessarily be such a great thing?

 

The current set-up isn't ideal, but it allows the development of players without a burden on the actual results. Results of games are important but nowhere as near as much as progressing the talents of the players. A competitive league could disrupt that.

 

Still, I imagine LR knows hell of a lot more about it than I do so perhaps those fears are unfounded.

[pap]

Am I the only one that thinks a B league might not necessarily be such a great thing?

 

The current set-up isn't ideal, but it allows the development of players without a burden on the actual results. Results of games are important but nowhere as near as much as progressing the talents of the players. A competitive league could disrupt that.

 

Still, I imagine LR knows hell of a lot more about it than I do so perhaps those fears are unfounded.

 

Well I can't answer for everyone, but I think the burden is important. That's the rationale behind sending players out on loan so that they can get first-team football. From our perspective, the burden that Premier League B would provide would be ideal. We want our players to play together and benefit from the staff setup and training facilities. A properly funded Premier League B would give us both.

 

There will undoubtedly be increased expectation on youth players from where they are now, but not quite on a par with their parent teams. A bit of pressure won't be bad, and I think anyone looking to become a Premier League footballer would relish the opportunity to show off their skills. Besides, Sky Sports already puts on a load of youth games; the precedent exists - it's just that the organisation has been lacking.

[Sour Mash]

I might have missed something, but how does "Premier League B" differ from just a normal reserve league rebranded?

[The Kraken]

I might have missed something, but how does "Premier League B" differ from just a normal reserve league rebranded?

U23 (plus 4 over age players) instead of U21.

Broadcast from the stadiums.

Prime time kick off times for public viewing.

 

It's the reserve league but with the Premier League marketing team thrown at it.

[Sour Mash]

U23 (plus 4 over age players) instead of U21.

Broadcast from the stadiums.

Prime time kick off times for public viewing.

 

It's the reserve league but with the Premier League marketing team thrown at it.

Can't see how that will sustain too much interest long-term, handy to catch bits of the games now and again.

[The Kraken]

Can't see how that will sustain too much interest long-term, handy to catch bits of the games now and again.

Current kick off times are often during the day in the week, and so aren't (in the main) conducive to big gates or big TV audiences. Moving those to the evenings and making them a regular fixture might change that. We've had gates of 10K against Arsenal and Spurs in the past for reserve games at St. Mary's, so there's clearly something to work with. Whether it will do what the PL are saying/hoping it will do, we'll see.

[Sour Mash]

Current kick off times are often during the day in the week, and so aren't (in the main) conducive to big gates or big TV audiences. Moving those to the evenings and making them a regular fixture might change that. We've had gates of 10K against Arsenal and Spurs in the past for reserve games at St. Mary's, so there's clearly something to work with. Whether it will do what the PL are saying/hoping it will do, we'll see.

I don't think the Under 21s usually play during the day. I've been to a couple of games with a few hundred there, not a bad turn-out, viewing the games on-line might be popular though.

[The Kraken]

I don't think the Under 21s usually play during the day. I've been to a couple of games with a few hundred there, not a bad turn-out, viewing the games on-line might be popular though.

Yeah fair point, not sure where I've got that from, even the U18s play predominantly weekends.

 

No idea if this will work but, if the PL are getting interested, then they must think there's potential to it. Certainly the bigger clubs might get some considerable TV interest. But West Brom v Sunderland reserves on the box isn't going to tick too many boxes for the neutral, you'd have thought.

 

It's worth a try, I suppose. I always thought it was a shame the U21 league developed as it did, it kind of nosedived a little in recent years. The gates we got in the PL were testament to the fact that there was an interest there. Could it be rekindled? Maybe. Online viewing also could, like you say, prove popular for a niche market.

Edited 11 March, 2014 by The Kraken

[The Kraken]

Actually, I was correct.

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/fixtures-results/u21-fixtures/

 

Most games played during the week and during the day, it would seem.

[Suhari]

Watched this on Sky+ just now.

 

Such an interesting topic, and good debate. Reed came across really well, and I love that we have such a considered and 'top to bottom' approach.

 

Find myself thinking just what an effort it would take for the so called big clubs to move to our model.....such a massive change in approach. We're clearly well ahead when it comes to producing English talent; interesting to see how things develop going forwards.

[Sour Mash]

Actually, I was correct.

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/fixtures-results/u21-fixtures/

 

Most games played during the week and during the day, it would seem.

Yes, I know most are played during the week, that's when I've seen them. We played once this season, 3pm on a Saturday at St Marys, not sure how many bothered going to that.

[Baird of the land]

I think very specific well matched loans can work. I very much disagree with the Chelsea Hoover model and endless loans. Don't think it helped cork and doubt it'll help this youngster bamford they nicked off forest who everyone is raving about. Love our current approach, just hope we can keep hold of the star youngsters for long enough.

[TheCholulaKid]

England has produced plenty of world class players over the years

 

Simply not true. I'd be interested to see who has been world class in the time, for example, that Sky has been involved in English football (so the last 20 years basically). I can think of 2 maybe 3.

[The Kraken]

Simply not true. I'd be interested to see who has been world class in the time, for example, that Sky has been involved in English football (so the last 20 years basically). I can think of 2 maybe 3.

Define "world class".

[Matthew Le God]

Simply not true. I'd be interested to see who has been world class in the time, for example, that Sky has been involved in English football (so the last 20 years basically). I can think of 2 maybe 3.

 

Depends on your definition of "world class", but I'd say...

 

Paul Scholes

David Beckham

Ashley Cole

Steven Gerrard

Alan Shearer

Paul Gascoigne

Were all at their peak world class, possibly some others as well.

Edited 12 March, 2014 by Matthew Le God

[Bearsy]

Define "world class".

 

If the world sent a team to play vs borg collective at the universe cup, they would get in the squad.

[Sour Mash]

Simply not true. I'd be interested to see who has been world class in the time, for example, that Sky has been involved in English football (so the last 20 years basically). I can think of 2 maybe 3.

Quickly, off the top of my head Micheal Owen, Steven Gerrard, Rooney, Beckham, Walcott, Scholes, Ferdinand, Lampard, Shearer, Addy Cole, Gareth Bale, Fowler

[TheCholulaKid]

If the world sent a team to play vs borg collective at the universe cup, they would get in the squad.

 

That.

 

Ashley Cole (defo)

Paul Scholes (defo)

Rio Ferdinand (for a short period of time)

Hadn't considered Shearer - maybe him

Not Beckham

Not Gerrard

Can't think of anyone else

[Matthew Le God]

Hadn't considered Shearer - maybe him

 

Only a maybe for the all time Premier League top scorer?

 

Not Beckham

Not Gerrard

 

At their peak, both were exceptional players for their positions on a world stage.

[DuncanRG]

Depends on your definition of "world class", but I'd say...

 

Paul Scholes

David Beckham

Ashley Cole

Steven Gerrard

Alan Shearer

 

Were all at their peak world class, possibly some others as well.

 

 

Gascoigne, Rooney, Terry, Lampard, Owen at his peak...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sour Mash]

Simply not true. I'd be interested to see who has been world class in the time, for example, that Sky has been involved in English football (so the last 20 years basically). I can think of 2 maybe 3.

So it is true and this country has produced plenty of top class players. In fact, there are only probably a couple of countries in the whole world that have been able to produce top class players consistently throughout the last 20 years better than England.

[St_Tel49]

If the world sent a team to play vs borg collective at the universe cup, they would get in the squad.

 

As good a definition as any.

[St_Tel49]

Gascoigne, Rooney, Terry, Lampard, Owen at his peak...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Of those - only Gascoigne and Owen for me. Rooney has never delivered at international level. And good as Lampard Is there were always better midfielders around internationally.

Edited 12 March, 2014 by St_Tel49

[TheCholulaKid]

So it is true and this country has produced plenty of top class players. In fact, there are only probably a couple of countries in the whole world that have been able to produce top class players consistently throughout the last 20 years better than England.

 

Haha. Still not true. Just because a couple of blokes on the internet agree with you doesn't make it true. World class (for me) means would be included in a squad of say 22 at any given time.

 

Rooney (never - had potential when he was 18 - gives ball away too much)

Beckham (******** - good right foot/dead ball delivery - not world class)

Gerrard (nope - too many Hollywood balls/gives it away too much)

Terry (that's a joke, right?)

Lampard (****ing hell)

 

Don't get me wrong - they're not **** or anything but they're not world class either.

 

Which of the above would stand a chance of getting in the Spanish national XI at the moment? None is the answer (probably not even in their 22) Cole/Scholes/Shearer/Ferdinand (at his peak) probably would.

 

P.S> I notice you've moved the goalposts from 'world class' to 'top class' - there's probably a difference between the two.

[The Kraken]

Of those - only Gascoigne and Owen for me. Rooney has never delivered at international level. And good as Lampard Is there were always better midfielders around internationally.

Lampard came second in the ballon d'or in 2005, so it would suggest his peers considered he was one of the world's best at one point. Gerrard was also third that year, so same for him too.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Of those - only Gascoigne and Owen for me. Rooney has never delivered at international level. And good as Lampard Is there were always better midfielders around internationally.

 

Not really a Lampard fan, but how many of these better players have scored and assisted as many as him as consistently as he has?

 

The guys record is phenomenal.

[The Kraken]

Haha. Still not true. Just because a couple of blokes on the internet agree with you doesn't make it true.

 

Owen, Beckham, Gerrard, Lampard and Shearer have all been voted in the top three of the world player of the year. By their peers. Which suggest they absolutely meet your benchmark of being "included in a squad of say 22 at any given time." They made a squad of 3.

 

That's before you even get to talking about other English players who have may have made that 22.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Surely Giggs has to be up there too?

[The Kraken]

Surely Giggs has to be up there too?

Yep, you could argue that Giggs for sure, he moved to Manchester when he was 5 or 6.

[Sour Mash]

Haha. Still not true. Just because a couple of blokes on the internet agree with you doesn't make it true. World class (for me) means would be included in a squad of say 22 at any given time.

 

Rooney (never - had potential when he was 18 - gives ball away too much)

Beckham (******** - good right foot/dead ball delivery - not world class)

Gerrard (nope - too many Hollywood balls/gives it away too much)

Terry (that's a joke, right?)

Lampard (****ing hell)

 

Don't get me wrong - they're not **** or anything but they're not world class either.

 

Which of the above would stand a chance of getting in the Spanish national XI at the moment? None is the answer (probably not even in their 22) Cole/Scholes/Shearer/Ferdinand (at his peak) probably would.

 

P.S> I notice you've moved the goalposts from 'world class' to 'top class' - there's probably a difference between the two.

I haven't moved any goal posts, 'top' or 'world' class, all the same to me. How many countries have the kind of output of players in the last 20 years that I've listed above?

 

I'm not sure what the current Spain team has to do with anything, no-one on here is disputing their quality.