Malaysia Airlines plane missing

[Weston Saint]

I think we're getting our Erics mixed up here.

 

One is a very highly trained professional that can expertly manoevre a huge passenger jet with pin point accuracy anywhere in the world.

 

The other one is a pilot.

I know the Eric I am talking about. He is not the one that frequents Dubai drinking holes with dubious people.

[derry]

I don't want to disclose how I know that which I have stated is correct as the person concerned would be in trouble, but I say no more than he/she will be correct!!

 

Is it the satellite that instigates the exchange or the aircraft that contacts the satellite? I think the Australians said the intelligence was from the US. There is no doubt in my mind that agencies will be less than helpful primarily protecting their sources and abilities as their priority.

[Simples]

My money would be on the GPS units starting the data link. They acquire the satellites in order to get required coverage/RAIM etc.

[Whitey Grandad]

Is it the satellite that instigates the exchange or the aircraft that contacts the satellite? I think the Australians said the intelligence was from the US. There is no doubt in my mind that agencies will be less than helpful primarily protecting their sources and abilities as their priority.

 

More about the pings here:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/18/why-mh370-could-still-talk-to-satellites-after-its-other-comms-went-dark/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/19/heres-whats-odd-about-that-map-of-mh370s-final-satellite-ping/

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-news/se-asia/story/missing-mh370-how-satellites-communicate-plane-malaysia-airlines

[Whitey Grandad]

My money would be on the GPS units starting the data link. They acquire the satellites in order to get required coverage/RAIM etc.

 

The GPS satellites are separate to the ACARS Inmarsat ones.

[derry]

More about the pings here:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/18/why-mh370-could-still-talk-to-satellites-after-its-other-comms-went-dark/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/19/heres-whats-odd-about-that-map-of-mh370s-final-satellite-ping/

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-news/se-asia/story/missing-mh370-how-satellites-communicate-plane-malaysia-airlines

 

They say the ACARS on MH370 was too old to have GPS but that doesn't ring true as 767s I've flown were older but had GPS in the systems including ACARS which we didn't use but was probably used by the company etc.

[Whitey Grandad]

They say the ACARS on MH370 was too old to have GPS but that doesn't ring true as 767s I've flown were older but had GPS in the systems including ACARS which we didn't use but was probably used by the company etc.

 

I think it's not so much the age of the aircraft as the cost of using the ACARS service. The figures I read were $10 per flight but Malysian weren't prepared to pay it.

[Simples]

The GPS satellites are separate to the ACARS Inmarsat ones.

 

I was only relating the GPS units, not the ACARS, that was switched off anyway.

[derry]

I think it's not so much the age of the aircraft as the cost of using the ACARS service. The figures I read were $10 per flight but Malysian weren't prepared to pay it.

 

The article mentioned the age of the equipment level. As far as I know the engine/systems data could be enabled but the pilot/atc elements, printer etc not operating. It sounds like the ACARS was switched off but the aerial was not and able to communicate with the satellite.

[West Stand]

They say the ACARS on MH370 was too old to have GPS but that doesn't ring true as 767s I've flown were older but had GPS in the systems including ACARS which we didn't use but was probably used by the company etc.

 

Dave, I have used Inmarsat satellite telephones on many occasions from all over the world and as you know we were recently in the Far East and used the Inmarsat satellite to call the UK.

From what I am being told our telephone used the same system and procedure, and from the Far East the same satellite as received the 'pings', to communicate.

On switch on the first message on the screen is 'getting GPS fix'. Until this fix is obtained the telephone is useless.

When the fix is obtained it tells you that it is connecting to the network, one can then make a call because the satellite knows where you are in the world.

I am also being told that the technology and procedure used by ACARS to transmit is similar to that of my satellite telephone, ergo that satellite must have had a GPS fix from the aeroplane associated with each 'ping' received.

I'm sorry but I refuse to explain in more detail from where my information comes but it is very accurate information.

I am still sure that some agency knows far more than they are telling the public/the other agencies and I still have no idea what happened so I am refusing many of the requests for interviews for that reason.

[buctootim]

Dave, I have used Inmarsat satellite telephones on many occasions from all over the world and as you know we were recently in the Far East and used the Inmarsat satellite to call the UK.

From what I am being told our telephone used the same system and procedure, and from the Far East the same satellite as received the 'pings', to communicate.

On switch on the first message on the screen is 'getting GPS fix'. Until this fix is obtained the telephone is useless.

When the fix is obtained it tells you that it is connecting to the network, one can then make a call because the satellite knows where you are in the world.

I am also being told that the technology and procedure used by ACARS to transmit is similar to that of my satellite telephone, ergo that satellite must have had a GPS fix from the aeroplane associated with each 'ping' received.

I'm sorry but I refuse to explain in more detail from where my information comes but it is very accurate information.

I am still sure that some agency knows far more than they are telling the public/the other agencies and I still have no idea what happened so I am refusing many of the requests for interviews for that reason.

 

The satellite which picked up the plane was Inmarsat 3-F1 which was launched in 1996. Its geostationary and does not require a GPS fix. It is located level with the equator in the centre of the Indian Ocean and where it overlapped with another satellite was where the breaks in the published arcs were. It does not cover the far east, which is covered by 3-F3.

 

This guy probably has the planes location right (imo).

Edited 21 March, 2014 by buctootim
added overlapping satellite

[Whitey Grandad]

Dave, I have used Inmarsat satellite telephones on many occasions from all over the world and as you know we were recently in the Far East and used the Inmarsat satellite to call the UK.

From what I am being told our telephone used the same system and procedure, and from the Far East the same satellite as received the 'pings', to communicate.

On switch on the first message on the screen is 'getting GPS fix'. Until this fix is obtained the telephone is useless.

When the fix is obtained it tells you that it is connecting to the network, one can then make a call because the satellite knows where you are in the world.

I am also being told that the technology and procedure used by ACARS to transmit is similar to that of my satellite telephone, ergo that satellite must have had a GPS fix from the aeroplane associated with each 'ping' received.

I'm sorry but I refuse to explain in more detail from where my information comes but it is very accurate information.

I am still sure that some agency knows far more than they are telling the public/the other agencies and I still have no idea what happened so I am refusing many of the requests for interviews for that reason.

 

No it didn't have to have a GPS fix. The ping is only the start of the message exchange and that is all that was received. It means that the only part of the system that was working was at the very basic level. It's all explained in the link I gave earlier:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/03/18/why-mh370-could-still-talk-to-satellites-after-its-other-comms-went-dark/

 

A ping is just to check that the receiver is there, that's all the information that the reply contains. Each receiver has a unique identifier.

Edited 21 March, 2014 by Whitey Grandad

[Weston Saint]

Let me just say that West Stand is correct in what he says. I am not going to go into detail but Whitey Grandad, whatever you might pick up on the internet is less than West Stand knows for certain. I have my sources as Derry will know. Let us just leave it there.

[buctootim]

Let me just say that West Stand is correct in what he says. I am not going to go into detail but Whitey Grandad, whatever you might pick up on the internet is less than West Stand knows for certain. I have my sources as Derry will know. Let us just leave it there.

 

He isnt correct. He has misinterpreted what he has been told.

[Weston Saint]

He isnt correct. He has misinterpreted what he has been told.

This man does not misinterpret. Not on matters such as this. Nor from his source.

 

He is an expert in the field of aviation. I trust his judgement and interpretation over those commenting on here.

[aintforever]

This man does not misinterpret. Not on matters such as this. Nor from his source.

 

He is an expert in the field of aviation. I trust his judgement and interpretation over those commenting on here.

 

Maybe he should call one of the thousands of people searching for the plane and let them in on his little secret?

[PhilippineSaint]

Maybe he should call one of the thousands of people searching for the plane and let them in on his little secret?

 

There is always the possibility that the first Ping is being used as a GPS locator and they were keeping it quiet to get more knowledge of where people say they are and where they actually are ??

[aintforever]

There is always the possibility that the first Ping is being used as a GPS locator and they were keeping it quiet to get more knowledge of where people say they are and where they actually are ??

 

I don't doubt the fact that we are not being told everything but if it is common knowledge within the industry that the engines give off a GPS position then that's not the sort of information a government would or could withhold.

[buctootim]

I don't doubt the fact that we are not being told everything but if it is common knowledge within the industry that the engines give off a GPS position then that's not the sort of information a government would or could withhold.

 

Apart from anything else Australia is a member of the UKUSA Five eyes agreement and have access to the most sensitive intelligence. If there was a GPS fix they would know and would act on it - not least because China would know we knew.

[West Stand]

This man does not misinterpret. Not on matters such as this. Nor from his source.

 

He is an expert in the field of aviation. I trust his judgement and interpretation over those commenting on here.

 

Thanks Ron I copy below a quote from an aviation forum which sums it up beautifully:

 

'The amount of known facts in the public domain on this issue is tiny. The media has misreported the facts and added huge amounts of unfounded speculation. As for the Malayasian authorities, they appear to be the modern day aviation equivalents of the Keystone Cops. Please do not make it worse by putting up more stupid ideas entirely founded on stupidity. It is perfectly clear who knows what they are talking about (there have been some excellent contributions from some) and equally clear when someone knows absolutely nothing.'

[ART]

I find it amazing that no aircraft carrier has been ordered into the search area by now. Surely it would be the only way to continue the ongoing search in an area deemed highly likely. Hours of flight time and search ability is being hampered by the planes needing 4 hours to arrive on site.

 

It amazes me even more that no aircraft carrier is to be found involved elsewhere since the beginning. I know China has an aircraft carrier and can believe the Americans have one in the vicinity of Japan.

[Whitey Grandad]

Thanks Ron I copy below a quote from an aviation forum which sums it up beautifully:

 

'The amount of known facts in the public domain on this issue is tiny. The media has misreported the facts and added huge amounts of unfounded speculation. As for the Malayasian authorities, they appear to be the modern day aviation equivalents of the Keystone Cops. Please do not make it worse by putting up more stupid ideas entirely founded on stupidity. It is perfectly clear who knows what they are talking about (there have been some excellent contributions from some) and equally clear when someone knows absolutely nothing.'

 

Er... what does that statement say, exactly?

[benjii]

Let me just say that West Stand is correct in what he says. I am not going to go into detail but Whitey Grandad, whatever you might pick up on the internet is less than West Stand knows for certain. I have my sources as Derry will know. Let us just leave it there.

 

Lol. ITK as always.

[Window Cleaner]

Er... what does that statement say, exactly?

 

 

Basically the same as you find on most forums: I know I'm right because I have proof that I can't of course divulge so everyone who doesn't agree with me is necessarily wrong and thus probably just making thing up.

 

Disclaimer:

I might add that I mean this to have no incidence on the current discussion, just explaining what the statement probably means.

Edited 21 March, 2014 by Window Cleaner

[Verbal]

Lol. ITK as always.

 

Of course! Just as he was Tommac - also a flying ace.

[Whitey Grandad]

Let me just say that West Stand is correct in what he says. I am not going to go into detail but Whitey Grandad, whatever you might pick up on the internet is less than West Stand knows for certain. I have my sources as Derry will know. Let us just leave it there.

 

I readily admit that my days of designing avionics and working in satellite comms lie many years in the past but the basic explanation concerning handshake pings with no next-level data seems plausible to me. What I do find unsettling is the assumption that some people seem to have that somebody must know something more than they are admitting or that some government is operating a cover-up. It's a symptom of the modern world that everybody expects instant information about everything but sometimes the simple explanation is that nobody knows anything.

[Window Cleaner]

I find it amazing that no aircraft carrier has been ordered into the search area by now. Surely it would be the only way to continue the ongoing search in an area deemed highly likely. Hours of flight time and search ability is being hampered by the planes needing 4 hours to arrive on site.

 

It amazes me even more that no aircraft carrier is to be found involved elsewhere since the beginning. I know China has an aircraft carrier and can believe the Americans have one in the vicinity of Japan.

 

 

Flat tops are floating cities, I really doubt that anyone has one to consecrate to the search for 239 dead people. Time it got there it would be useless anyway, sonar research vessels would probably be far more efficient.

[Window Cleaner]

Whilst I am reflecting on this mystery. I keep reading that it is a known fact that the turn to the west was programmed into the

flight computer of the aircraft at least 12 minutes before the last contact between the pilots and ground radar. How would anyone exactly know that ?

[Halo Stickman]

... sometimes the simple explanation is that nobody knows anything.

 

I think you’re on the wrong forum, Whitey.

[trousers]

Whilst I am reflecting on this mystery. I keep reading that it is a known fact that the turn to the west was programmed into the

flight computer of the aircraft at least 12 minutes before the last contact between the pilots and ground radar. How would anyone exactly know that ?

 

Good question. That's been bugging me too.

[Window Cleaner]

Good question. That's been bugging me too.

 

 

Indeed because it is used as the primary reason to disprove the theory where the flight crew could have been overcome by smoke (or something) and attempted a desperate turn back towards somewhere they knew. I've given up following this drama closely but this always comes back to me whenever I think on it. How can anyone possibly know that, if they knew by some electronic transmission that it had been done they might have known the plotted course.

[Whitey Grandad]

Whilst I am reflecting on this mystery. I keep reading that it is a known fact that the turn to the west was programmed into the

flight computer of the aircraft at least 12 minutes before the last contact between the pilots and ground radar. How would anyone exactly know that ?

 

This seems to be the crucial question. If the co-pilot (apparently) was the last to have contact with ATC then surely he must have known that this was programmed in? I presume it's possible that data was being exchanged automatically with the ground at this stage before it was later disabled.

[aintforever]

The Chinese are going to be right f*cked off when they find out West Stand knew how to find their plane all along. This could get interesting.

[Wurzel]

Whilst I am reflecting on this mystery. I keep reading that it is a known fact that the turn to the west was programmed into the

flight computer of the aircraft at least 12 minutes before the last contact between the pilots and ground radar. How would anyone exactly know that ?

 

Add me to the bugged by that list.

 

I read it that it was programmed in before the final contact to turn at a certain later time/distance into the flight . No idea how they would know that from the ground but if they do why don't they know about any subsequent manoeuvres? Would programmed ones be detectable but not manual ones?

 

Alternatively should we be reading it to mean it actually made the manoeuvre 12 minutes before last contact?

[Weston Saint]

The Chinese are going to be right f*cked off when they find out West Stand knew how to find their plane all along. This could get interesting.

Sarcasm seems to be your strength. When you can turn that into a skill to save lives you might have some merit like West Stand.

[derry]

Whilst I am reflecting on this mystery. I keep reading that it is a known fact that the turn to the west was programmed into the

flight computer of the aircraft at least 12 minutes before the last contact between the pilots and ground radar. How would anyone exactly know that ?

 

In my opinion they wouldn't as the FMS isn't communicable unless the flight and navigation data is transmitted by ACARS throughout the flight or downloaded to the satellite periodically or on landing.

[Window Cleaner]

In my opinion they wouldn't as the FMS isn't communicable unless the flight and navigation data is transmitted by ACARS throughout the flight or downloaded to the satellite periodically or on landing.

 

I have read somewhere that in fact the ACARS system cannot be totally switched off, just put on standby. In fact switching the ACARS off on China flights is apparently quite common because there isn't VHF coverage (is that right) and it forces the system into SATCOMM mode. However there are so many "contributions" on this subject that one doesn't really know what to take as gospel.

 

Might be useful to put up the link, so I've found it again, I'm sure that someone will tell us it's total bullsh*t though.

 

http://www.nst.com.my/latest/font-color-red-missing-mh370-font-acars-cannot-be-disabled-1.521314?cache=wixtvnujghdrti

 

I do somewhat agree with the last line about military capability though, there is so much hidden technology out there that

it has become quite frightening.

[derry]

It should be considered that people who have had a lifetime of membership in BALPA and were actively involved, have access to contacts throughout aviation, manufacturers, avionics, AAIB etc. For example I assisted the BMA pilots barristers at the Kegworth inquest, also was helped by an AAIB expert on data recorders to successfully defend a pilot on appeal.

 

For a variety of reasons, security, litigation or personal employment reasons information is passed by experts off the record to trusted contacts. I suspect that the intelligence agencies first and foremost look after their interests. It is fact that the US pointed the Australians in the west of Perth direction. The Enigma factor is still with us. I personally take West Stand's information as read.

[Gemmel]

Sarcasm seems to be your strength. When you can turn that into a skill to save lives you might have some merit like West Stand.

 

To be fair mate, you should probably re-read your post as that was exactly how it came across.

[OldNick]

The Chinese are going to be right f*cked off when they find out West Stand knew how to find their plane all along. This could get interesting.

TBF West Stand said he had no idea what happened and so it is a non event. No point the media asking him if he has no idea, they might as well phone me up at least I could give them a few snippets from on here.

[derry]

Still nothing on the search, abandoned until daylight. It is beginning to look like nobody knows, because the Indians etc are still searching the northern arc just in case.

[Viking Warrior]

Thanks Weston , derry and west stand very informative posts .

 

Aintforever and bactotim . I think you are out if order in your comments re Weston and west stand .

 

They reading between the lines of their respective posts . Instead of trying to discredit or mock them .

[View From The Top]

This whole thing is utterly baffling. I mean, it just seems utterly implausible that that a modern commercial aircraft can just disappear and no one has a chuffing clue where to look for it.

[buctootim]

TBF West Stand said he had no idea what happened and so it is a non event. No point the media asking him if he has no idea, they might as well phone me up at least I could give them a few snippets from on here.

 

No he didn't. He said that the location was known through GPS but was being suppressed, implying the whole search was charade. The 'proof' of that was that his satellite phone call from a totally different location using totally different technology needed a GPS fix to work. He may be an expert on something, but it isn't this.

Edited 21 March, 2014 by buctootim

[derry]

Thanks Weston , derry and west stand very informative posts .

 

Aintforever and bactotim . I think you are out if order in your comments re Weston and west stand .

 

They reading between the lines of their respective posts . Instead of trying to discredit or mock them .

 

West Stand and myself have over 40000 hours flying between us and very many years on Boeings. We don't have a clue what happened but the current management of the search isn't even approaching competent and hasn't helped, as for the military radar, what military radar? Any half competent radar operator would know exactly what direction MH370 went. No surprise though. The major powers have unbelievable surveillance capability, my concern is what have they seen.

[derry]

No he didn't. He said that the location was known through GPS but was being suppressed, implying the whole search was charade. The 'proof' of that was that his satellite phone call from a totally different location using totally different technology needed a GPS fix to work. He may be an expert on something, but it isn't this.

 

I think you are ignoring his contact who I would bet is with Inmarsat.

[Viking Warrior]

Dave .

 

I'm like you and do not gave a clue what has happened. But some of the more secret service , FBI etc will have a better idea than most of us

[Saint Charlie]

Anyone else lost with who Dave is?

[Window Cleaner]

And would not being subscribed for the satellite version of ACARS (as is the case of Malaysia Airlines) change the way data is transmitted to and from satellites ?

[buctootim]

Anyone else lost with who Dave is?

 

 

Its the 'Only Fools and Horses' thread.

Edited 21 March, 2014 by buctootim