Malaysia Airlines plane missing

[Special K]

Posting up the same old conspiracy stuff for every event involving people getting killed and showing the same thrill everytime in no way can be construed as demonstrating your beliefs, no sir no way. You're just posting up stuff from the same point of view everytime for discussion. Thats the tactics of a man who believes carp but isnt prepared to stand by his views when challenged.

 

That's not strictly true though tim. He did attempt to provide an explanation of his views on the physical laws of movement and the properties of materials, namely steel and concrete, with a mock up demonstration of the WTC using a gingerbread house, an airfix plane and bag of sugar.

[pap]

Well done, I'm proud of you for that. It looks like you may be learning something - you actually looked at the evidence and made some sort of rational judgement based on it. Has to be a first.

 

Ah, superb. I'll tell the kids I won the admiration of a fool today. Constrain your educational advice to yourself, though ainttooclever. You need it more than me.

 

Posting up the same old conspiracy stuff for every event involving people getting killed and showing the same thrill everytime in no way can be construed as demonstrating your beliefs, no sir no way. You're just posting up stuff from the same point of view everytime for discussion. Thats the tactics of a man who believes carp but isnt prepared to stand by his views when challenged.

 

What a load of nonsense. I post all over this site on loads of different subjects. My main interest on this site now lies in making the likes of you and ainttooclever look bigger c**ts than you manage yourselves, which is quite the task, I can tell you.

 

I think the pair of you should just get a room. Premier Inn is very cheap these days and is advertised by the reputable Lenny Henry. Fk it. You can both call my name when you come if you want*.

 

* that's a username-only offer, kids.

[buctootim]

Ah, superb. I'll tell the kids I won the admiration of a fool today. Constrain your educational advice to yourself, though ainttooclever. You need it more than me.

 

 

 

What a load of nonsense. I post all over this site on loads of different subjects. My main interest on this site now lies in making the likes of you and ainttooclever look bigger c**ts than you manage yourselves, which is quite the task, I can tell you.

 

I think the pair of you should just get a room. Premier Inn is very cheap these days and is advertised by the reputable Lenny Henry. Fk it. You can both call my name when you come if you want*.

 

* that's a username-only offer, kids.

 

Classic Pap. A hissy fit which always involves calling people gay as an insult. Why not drop the mask totally and call me Jewish as well? Admit it, you've got sucked into the primarily American right wing, Jew and gay hating conpiracist underground. You like to think of yourself as a free thinking libertarian but in fact are just weak minded and easily lead.

[pap]

Classic Pap. A hissy fit which always involves calling people gay as an insult. Why not drop the mask totally and call me Jewish as well? Admit it, you've got sucked into the primarily American right wing, Jew and gay hating conpiracist underground. You like to think of yourself as a free thinking libertarian but in fact are just weak minded and easily lead.

 

I love the gay references. The only people who get really offended are homophobes. Didn't call you it directly though. What two men get up to in the comfort of a Premier Inn is entirely their concern. I'd pegged the pair of you as being so excited about finally meeting each other, you'd ejaculate on the spot. If you wanna take that further, it's up to you. I'm not your mum or your judge.

 

So in your little moment of anger, you've decided to go for the anti-semitic label too. It lost its power once Netanyahu called boycott supporters anti-semitic. Indeed, I read a very good quote the other day.

 

"Anti-semitic used to describe people who didn't like Jews. Now it describes people Jews don't like".

 

Netanyahu's definition to a tee.

 

For the record though, I don't give a crap about what people choose to self-identify themselves as. I do think that Israel is the most prolific rogue state going, and that historical sensitivities should not preclude being robust with the Israelis over present day concerns. You want to label that anti-semitic, fill your boots - but I go back to what I said in my previous post - making you look a bigger c**t than you manage yourself is quite the task.

[Picard]

World Cup 2018

 

Predictions?

 

Leading German politicians have called for Russia to be stripped of hosting the next football World Cup in response to the shooting down of Flight MH17.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10985678/Russia-should-be-stripped-of-World-Cup-after-MH17-attack-say-German-politicians.html

 

But I suppose four years is a very long time in world politics.

[pap]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10985678/Russia-should-be-stripped-of-World-Cup-after-MH17-attack-say-German-politicians.html

 

But I suppose four years is a very long time in world politics.

 

I've been watching the video you linked again. I'll be interested to see whether the Russians can seek, or indeed provide any sort of independent verification, especially on important stuff like the location of those anti-air batteries and whatever the voice recorder turns up.

 

This week's No Agenda show covers MH17 for about the first 90 minutes.

 

http://mp3s.nashownotes.com/NA-636-2014-07-20-Final.mp3

 

I wouldn't be on-board with everything Messrs Curry and Dvorak peddle on their show, but they do a fair job of scouring the media and dissecting it, when Adam Curry isn't getting the wrong end of the stick, which is often (their WC conspiracy theories were so far off the mark it was unbelievable). Some decent listening here though, with a lot of focus on the language used to describe events.

[pap]

Consider this a follow-up to Picard's posted video.

 

At the end of that one, the Russians challenge the US to produce the evidence they have. Here, a US reporter asks the same thing.

 

"Do you have any evidence other than social media?"

 

[Minty]

pap, you are starting to come across like Saints George used to on the Climate Change thread... replying to every challenge with longwinded insults and put-downs, rather than building credibility by explaining your reasoning. I appreciate others don't always reply to your hypotheses with the same kind of respect, but surely you must recognise that by putting forward theories that you know are going to provoke a response, and you should be prepared better for that than to simply shout down with childish comments that add nothing and, IMO, make the thread unreadable.

 

Further, if your "main interest on this site now lies in making the likes of [buctootim] and ainttooclever look bigger c**ts than you manage yourselves" then you'll quickly lose any respect people may have had for you.

 

Present your conspiracies and your evidence, stand by it, defend it if you feel you need to, and debate the points, but if you plan on winning people over with your arguments, then drop all the personal rubbish.

 

Whoever or whatever caused it, this loss of life was a tragic event and there is a lot of interest in what happened. If we have to disagree on potential causes etc, that's fine, but a bit more tolerance and respect wouldn't go amiss IMO, especially on something like this.

[pap]

pap, you are starting to come across like Saints George used to on the Climate Change thread... replying to every challenge with longwinded insults and put-downs, rather than building credibility by explaining your reasoning. I appreciate others don't always reply to your hypotheses with the same kind of respect, but surely you must recognise that by putting forward theories that you know are going to provoke a response, and you should be prepared better for that than to simply shout down with childish comments that add nothing and, IMO, make the thread unreadable.

 

Further, if your "main interest on this site now lies in making the likes of [buctootim] and ainttooclever look bigger c**ts than you manage yourselves" then you'll quickly lose any respect people may have had for you.

 

Present your conspiracies and your evidence, stand by it, defend it if you feel you need to, and debate the points, but if you plan on winning people over with your arguments, then drop all the personal rubbish.

 

Whoever or whatever caused it, this loss of life was a tragic event and there is a lot of interest in what happened. If we have to disagree on potential causes etc, that's fine, but a bit more tolerance and respect wouldn't go amiss IMO, especially on something like this.

 

Hi Minty. You've been present on these threads long enough to know the score. You'll know that historically, I've had to deal with the same four morons that have unfailingly produced all sorts of "personal rubbish" aimed at me. You're asking me to drop my revolver in a four against one gun fight.

 

Let's do the list shall we? So far, I've had mental disorders ( buctootim & aintforever ), been an anti-semite (Verbal, btt), been an embarrassment to both my father and my kids (CB Fry), an idiot or a nutter. This has been going on for two years.

 

So yes, my main interest now does lie in showing these people up for the bullies that they are, because with all of the above, sensible discussion is impossible.

 

If that causes me to lose respect, so be it - but know that it goes both ways.

[Minty]

I realise it goes both ways, and you've been present on here long enough to know that every so often I feel the need to ask everyone to have a bit of tolerance and respect for alternative views, (which pretty much always fails). I addressed you to start with because (I think) you are intelligent enough to recognise that if you present views which are quite some way from the accepted norm, then you have to expect some quite pointed replies. If you dealt with those pointed replies better then you might have a better audience for your views.

[JackFrost]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10985678/Russia-should-be-stripped-of-World-Cup-after-MH17-attack-say-German-politicians.html

 

But I suppose four years is a very long time in world politics.

 

Translated - "We can't do a damn thing, so we don't want to play football with you"

 

Trying to convince an organisation like FIFA to strip a country like Russia of the World Cup. Good luck with that

[pap]

I realise it goes both ways, and you've been present on here long enough to know that every so often I feel the need to ask everyone to have a bit of tolerance and respect for alternative views, (which pretty much always fails). I addressed you to start with because (I think) you are intelligent enough to recognise that if you present views which are quite some way from the accepted norm, then you have to expect some quite pointed replies. If you dealt with those pointed replies better then you might have a better audience for your views.

 

Pointed replies are one thing. The level of abuse I've gotten on here has been out of control. And for what, because I hold different ideas in my head?

 

It's only my narcissism (right, Tim?) that has allowed me to continue

 

In terms of audience, I'm encouraged by developments over the last couple of years. I had far more people on my case back then, and no-one was really interested. These days, I've got support on a number of the issues I've raised and my list of regular detractors is down to about two.

 

One positive thing about the abuse I get is that it allows others to post, so there's that.

[Minty]

Well I'm not picking sides, and I've made my point. I'm also not a mod anymore (mores the frustration sometimes...) so people can ignore me and forum life goes on.

 

And back on topic, I just hope there is some valuable information to come from the flight data recorders soon.

[buctootim]

This is a good balanced comment piece on the BBC by the Russian based Head of the Carnegie Centre (an endowed independent peace organisation). Talks about Putin's game plan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28421196

 

Separately it appears that the Americans do indeed have detailed images of the BUK launcher inside rebel controlled territory. However the 'problem' is that the the guys manning it appear to be wearing Ukrainian type uniforms and be lacking discipline as the site is surrounded by rubbish, mainly bottles, so possibly drunk. There is nothing conclusive yet. Their analysts are trying to establish whether the crew were 1. Rebels wearing Ukrainian uniforms (not uncommon) 2. Deserters from Ukrainian army. 3. Ukrainian army unit on unauthorisied mission 4. Ukrainians on authorised mission 5. Rebels deliberately wearing Ukrainian uniforms to deflect attack by ground attack aircraft 6. A Russian / rebel attempt to place blame on Ukraine, knowing there would be satellite imagery. The most liekly explanantion remains that the rebels did it because the launcher and command / radar modules are unprotected.

Edited 24 July, 2014 by buctootim

[pap]

Well I'm not picking sides, and I've made my point. I'm also not a mod anymore (mores the frustration sometimes...) so people can ignore me and forum life goes on.

 

And back on topic, I just hope there is some valuable information to come from the flight data recorders soon.

 

Well I've got infinitely more respect for this sort of post than some of the others I get

 

As long as you know where I'm coming from. They stop being personal, so do I.

[hypochondriac]

Pointed replies are one thing. The level of abuse I've gotten on here has been out of control. And for what, because I hold different ideas in my head?

 

It's only my narcissism (right, Tim?) that has allowed me to continue

 

In terms of audience, I'm encouraged by developments over the last couple of years. I had far more people on my case back then, and no-one was really interested. These days, I've got support on a number of the issues I've raised and my list of regular detractors is down to about two.

 

One positive thing about the abuse I get is that it allows others to post, so there's that.

 

Just because people have been worn down and largely ignore you now does not mean you have more people who agree with you and your mostly objectionable views.

[pap]

This is a good balanced comment piece on the BBC by the Russian based Head of the Carnegie Centre (an endowed independent peace organisation). Talks about Putin's game plan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28421196

 

Separately it appears that the Americans do indeed have detailed images of the BUK launcher inside rebel controlled territory. However the 'problem' is that the the guys manning it appear to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and be lacking discipline as the site is surrounded by rubbish, mainly bottles, so possibly drunk. Nothing conclusive yet. Their analysts are debating whether the crew were 1. Rebels wearing Ukrainian uniforms (not uncommon) 2. Deserters from Ukrainian army. 3. Ukrainian army unit on unauthorisied mission 4. Ukrainians on authorised mission 5. Rebels deliberately wearing Ukrainian uniforms to deflect attack by ground attack aircraft 6. A Russian / rebel attempt to place blasme on Ukraine, knowing there would be satellite imagery.

 

Still no evidence beyond social media then?

 

Perhaps the US shouldn't have made statements that they had proof.

[pap]

Just because people have been worn down and largely ignore you now does not mean you have more people who agree with you and your mostly objectionable views.

 

There's a man who speaks from experience!

 

Read the thread, ask yourself the last time anyone asked for your opinion, and weep.

[hypochondriac]

There's a man who speaks from experience!

 

Read the thread, ask yourself the last time anyone asked for your opinion, and weep.

 

Who apart from the couple of nutters have ever asked for your view on subjects such as the London attack? Most were simply disgusted or laughed at what you said and then decided not to humour you any further. You would definitely be more at home on the David icke forum that you claim to respect so much.

Edited 24 July, 2014 by hypochondriac

[Minty]

Still no evidence beyond social media then?

 

Perhaps the US shouldn't have made statements that they had proof.

 

Perhaps they have proof, but are waiting to piece things together with other countries and agencies. I suspect they want to ensure that when the evidence is pieced together, if indeed they have it, that it shows thigns beyond any reasonable doubt.

 

Also, this social media line is an interesting one... after all social media is simple a platform to publish information. It is no different to a newspaper. All information that comes out ideally needs clear sourcing, but the limits of social media mean it is often left out. Just because something is published via social media, doesn't mean it should be afforded any more OR less credibility, until such time as sources are verified.

[Hatch]

Why dont Black Box Flight recorders automatically transmit the info they hold back to HQ somewhere or other.

 

Even my iphone can do this.

[buctootim]

Pointed replies are one thing. The level of abuse I've gotten on here has been out of control. And for what, because I hold different ideas in my head?

 

No its your evident glee in anything involving death and human misfortune. It ramps your post count right up.

 

It's only my narcissism (right, Tim?) that has allowed me to continue

 

Yep, it is your narcississm. When the weakenesses in your arguments are pointed out you default to "I'm being bullied, me, me, me, me". The posts become all about you, Poor Pap.

 

The reason you now have fewer detractors is because at first most people assumed your could be persuaded by evidence. Its been clear for a long time that isnt true, so most people dont bother with you.

Edited 24 July, 2014 by buctootim

[pap]

Perhaps they have proof, but are waiting to piece things together with other countries and agencies. I suspect they want to ensure that when the evidence is pieced together, if indeed they have it, that it shows thigns beyond any reasonable doubt.

 

Also, this social media line is an interesting one... after all social media is simple a platform to publish information. It is no different to a newspaper. All information that comes out ideally needs clear sourcing, but the limits of social media mean it is often left out. Just because something is published via social media, doesn't mean it should be afforded any more OR less credibility, until such time as sources are verified.

 

Sorry Minty, but I don't agree. The Russians have been fitted up for this from the start, proof or not. Day one, the Americans said they had proof of a missile launch from rebel-held territory. This has not been presented, despite being a slam dunk.

 

Can't really agree with the social media thing either. Take a look at the main board transfers thread and the disdain that tweeted rumours get, yet the US is willing to blame another super-power for an atrocity based on Twitter and YouTube, user generated content which can come from anywhere. It's madness.

[pap]

No its your evident glee in anything involving death and human misfortune. It ramps your post count right up.

 

Yep, it is your narcississm. When the weakenesses in your arguments are pointed out you default to "I'm being bullied, me, me, me, me". The posts become all about you, Poor Pap.

 

The reason you now have fewer detractors is because at first most people assumed your could be persuaded by evidence. Its been clear for a long time that isnt true, so most people dont bother with you.

 

You should really learn the difference between narcissism and confidence.

 

Fk it, just learn confidence. Probably an alien concept.

[buctootim]

Why dont Black Box Flight recorders automatically transmit the info they hold back to HQ somewhere or other.

 

Even my iphone can do this.

 

Yep this was discussed when the Malasian plane went missing over the sea. If I recall correctly Inmarsat, the satellite company, said it was routinely offered and could be done for around £7 per flight - but that many airlines refused to pay the miniscule fee.

[Minty]

Sorry Minty, but I don't agree. The Russians have been fitted up for this from the start, proof or not.

Sorry pap, but you can't ask for proof from others, and then make a point without any whatsoever. I'm willing to entertain the possibility, but like everything in this discussion, we can only judge on the evidence before us and make our minds up accordingly. To make our minds up on no evidence whatsoever, is somewhat misguided IMO.

 

Day one, the Americans said they had proof of a missile launch from rebel-held territory. This has not been presented, despite being a slam dunk.

As I said, it could be that they need to go through a process of verifying this, or cross-referencing it with other evidence from other organisations or countries. If it doesn't come out at all, then I might agree with you, but I'm not going to judge them in the same way while investigations are ongoing.

 

Can't really agree with the social media thing either. Take a look at the main board transfers thread and the disdain that tweeted rumours get, yet the US is willing to blame another super-power for an atrocity based on Twitter and YouTube, user generated content which can come from nowhere. It's madness.

 

I'm pretty sure the US (and the UK, and the Netherlands, and Australia remember...) is not basing it's accusations on purely social media alone... I suspect they will have followed up initial reports that may have come from social media, and then sought to verify the evidence by contacting people directly, along with their own data, etc, etc. To believe these things solely based on social media evidence would indeed be madness... Such a strategy would be picked apart by many people far less suspicious than you if they were to do so. I would fully expect them to investigate things further, and frankly, I'm surprised that you would allege such a thing.

 

We will see.

[pap]

Sorry pap, but you can't ask for proof from others, and then make a point without any whatsoever. I'm willing to entertain the possibility, but like everything in this discussion, we can only judge on the evidence before us and make our minds up accordingly. To make our minds up on no evidence whatsoever, is somewhat misguided IMO.

 

The video I posted established that the US State Dept either don't have or are unwilling to share the information they said they had last week. The only cited proof of the allegations are social media.

 

As I said, it could be that they need to go through a process of verifying this, or cross-referencing it with other evidence from other organisations or countries. If it doesn't come out at all, then I might agree with you, but I'm not going to judge them in the same way while investigations are ongoing.

 

I'm pretty sure the US (and the UK, and the Netherlands, and Australia remember...) is not basing it's accusations on purely social media alone... I suspect they will have followed up initial reports that may have come from social media, and then sought to verify the evidence by contacting people directly, along with their own data, etc, etc. To believe these things solely based on social media evidence would indeed be madness... Such a strategy would be picked apart by many people far less suspicious than you if they were to do so. I would fully expect them to investigate things further, and frankly, I'm surprised that you would allege such a thing.

 

We will see.

 

Which would be an entirely fair line of reasoning, except for the massive rush to judgement. We've had reports of rebels stealing from the dead, black boxes being spirited away to Moscow or "scared" eyewitnesses saying they saw a BUK launcher in rebel hands and a call to strip the Russians of the 2018 WC.

 

If you say they are still in the process of gathering proof, how do you reconcile that with the myriad of proofless accusations?

[andysstuff]

Sky reporting an Algerian plane has gone missing

[Minty]

The video I posted established that the US State Dept either don't have or are unwilling to share the information they said they had last week. The only cited proof of the allegations are social media.

Unwilling *so far* for the reasons I've stated. This is all supposition though.

Which would be an entirely fair line of reasoning, except for the massive rush to judgement. We've had reports of rebels stealing from the dead, black boxes being spirited away to Moscow or "scared" eyewitnesses saying they saw a BUK launcher in rebel hands and a call to strip the Russians of the 2018 WC.

 

If you say they are still in the process of gathering proof, how do you reconcile that with the myriad of proofless accusations?

 

The massive rush to judgement by who? Many members of the public who aren't able to think for themselves? Yes, fair enough, as your point about the main board and transfer rumours shows. But diplomats and official investigators are not making final judgements - they are putting across accusations based on evidence they supposedly have. And just because they have not presented their proof to you yet, does not mean they do not have it at all.

 

If you believe my response is a fair line of reasoning that only falls on the part of the judgements being made then what we effectively have is the equivalent of a standard court case... allegations being made, evidence gathering by the prosecution in preparation of charges being put forward. And just as in our justice system, allegations are made and charges can be brought before the full weight of evidence is brought forward. That is done at a later date, i.e. at a trial. If those allegations are not proven, then those alleged against will be not guilty.

 

Nothing that is happening here is particularly out of the ordinary, and certainly does not, IMO, indicate any kind of 'fit up'.

[Seaford Saint]

It was Putin's missile! by Pepe Escobar

 

And here's the spin war verdict: the current Malaysia Airlines tragedy - the second in four months - is "terrorism" perpetrated by "pro-Russian separatists", armed by Russia, and Vladimir Putin is the main culprit. End of story. Anyone who believes otherwise, shut up.

 

Why? Because the CIA said so. Because Hillary "We came, we saw, he died" Clinton said so. Because bat**** crazy Samantha "R2P" Power said so - thundering at the UN, everything duly printed by the neo-con infested Washington Post. [1]

 

Because Anglo-American corporate media - from CNN to Fox (who tried to buy Time Warner, which owns CNN) - said so. Because the President of the United States (POTUS) said so. And mostly because Kiev had vociferously said so in the first place.

 

Right off the bat they were all lined up - the invariably hysterical reams of "experts" of the "US intelligence community" literally foaming at their palatial mouths at "evil" Russia and "evil" Putin; intel "experts" who could not identify a convoy of gleaming white Toyotas crossing the Iraqi desert to take Mosul. And yet they have already sentenced they don't need to look any further, instantly solving the MH17 riddle.

 

It doesn't matter that President Putin has stressed the MH17 tragedy must be investigated objectively. And "objectively" certainly does not mean that fictional "international community" notion construed by Washington - the usual congregation of pliable vassals/patsies.

 

And what about Carlos?

A simple search at reveals that MH17 was in fact diverted 200 kilometers north from the usual flight path taken by Malaysia Airlines in the previous days - and plunged right in the middle of a war zone. Why? What sort of communication MH17 received from Kiev air control tower?

 

Kiev has been mute about it. Yet the answer would be simple, had Kiev released the Air Traffic Control recording of the tower talking to flight MH17; Malaysia did it after flight MH370 disappeared forever.

 

It won't happen; SBU security confiscated it. So much for getting an undoctored explanation on why MH17 was off its path, and what the pilots saw and said before the explosion.

 

The Russian Defense Ministry, for its part, has confirmed that a Kiev-controlled Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational near the MH17's crash. Kiev has deployed several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers; these are all perfectly capable of bringing down jets flying at 33,000 ft.

 

Radiation from a battery's Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla (a village some 30km south of Donetsk) was detected by the Russian military. According to the ministry, the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery which was at a firing distance from MH17's flight path. The tracking radar range on the Buk system is a maximum of 50 miles. MH17 was flying at 500 mph. So assuming the "rebels" had an operational Buk and did it, they would have had not more than five minutes to scan all the skies above, all possible altitudes, and then lock on. By then they would have known that a cargo plane could not possibly be flying that high. For evidence supporting the possibility of a false flag, check here.

 

And then there's the curiouser and curiouser story of Carlos, the Spanish air traffic controller working at Kiev's tower, who was following MH17 in real time. For some Carlos is legit - not a cipher; for others, he's never even worked in Ukraine. Anyway he tweeted like mad. His account - not accidentally - has been shut down, and he has disappeared; his friends are now desperately looking for him. I managed to read all his tweets in Spanish when the account was still online - and now copies and an English translation are available.

 

These are some of his crucial tweets:

 

 

"The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar (5.48 pm)"

"If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a few minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)"

"As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed us of the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00)"

"Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don't believe it, it was taken down by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it too (7.14)"

"The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but the Ministry of Defense didn't. (7.15)"

"The military confirm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from. (7.31)"

 

Carlos's assessment (a partial compilation of his tweets is collected here http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/ ): the missile was fired by the Ukraine military under orders of the Ministry of Interior - NOT the Ministry of Defense. Security matters at the Ministry of the Interior happen to be under Andriy Parubiy, who was closely working alongside US neo-cons and Banderastan neo-nazis on Maidan.

 

Assuming Carlos is legit, the assessment makes sense. The Ukrainian military are divided between Chocolate king President Petro Poroshenko - who would like a d?tente with Russia essentially to advance his shady business interests - and Saint Yulia Timoshenko, who's on the record advocating genocide of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine. US neo-cons and US "military advisers" on the ground are proverbially hedging their bets, supporting both the Poroshenko and Timoshenko factions.

 

So who profits?

The key question remains, of course, cui bono? Only the terminally brain dead believe shooting a passenger jet benefits the federalists in Eastern Ukraine, not to mention the Kremlin.

 

As for Kiev, they'd have the means, the motive and the window of opportunity to pull it off - especially after Kiev's militias have been effectively routed, and were in retreat, in the Donbass; and this after Kiev remained dead set on attacking and bombing the population of Eastern Ukraine even from above. No wonder the federalists had to defend themselves.

 

And then there's the suspicious timing. The MH17 tragedy happened two days after the BRICS announced an antidote to the IMF and the World Bank, bypassing the US dollar. And just as Israel "cautiously" advances its new invasion/slow motion ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Malaysia, by the way, is the seat of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, which has found Israel guilty of crimes against humanity.

 

Washington, of course, does profit. What the Empire of Chaos gets in this case is a ceasefire (so the disorganized, battered Kiev militias may be resupplied); the branding of Eastern Ukrainians as de facto "terrorists" (as Kiev, **** Cheney-style, always wanted); and unlimited mud thrown over Russia and Putin in particular until Kingdom Come. Not bad for a few minutes' work. As for NATO, that's Christmas in July.

 

From now on, it all depends on Russian intelligence. They have been surveying/tracking everything that happens in Ukraine 24/7. In the next 72 hours, after poring over a lot of tracking data, using telemetry, radar and satellite tracking, they will know which type of missile was launched, where from, and even produce communications from the battery that launched it. And they will have access to forensic evidence.

 

Unlike Washington - who already knows everything, with no evidence whatsoever (remember 9/11?) - Moscow will take its time to know the basic journalistic facts of what, where, and who, and engage on proving the truth and/or disproving Washington's spin.

 

The historical record shows Washington simply won't release data if it points to a missile coming from its Kiev vassals. The data may even point to a bomb planted on MH17, or mechanical failure - although that's unlikely. If this was a terrible mistake by the Novorossiya rebels, Moscow will have to reluctantly admit it. If Kiev did it, the revelation will be instantaneous. Anyway we already know the hysterical Western response, no matter what; Russia is to blame.

 

Putin is more than correct when he stressed this tragedy would not have happened if Poroshenko had agreed to extend a cease-fire, as Merkel, Hollande and Putin tried to convince him in late June. At a minimum, Kiev is already guilty because they are responsible for safe passage of flights in the airspace they - theoretically - control.

 

But all that is already forgotten in the fog of war, tragedy and hype. As for Washington's hysterical claims of credibility, I leave you with just one number: Iran Air 655.

 

Notes:

[Minty]

Interesting stuff. Just one thing though. No one has given a 'verdict' yet. And the whole international community has called for a credible international investigation into what happened, not just Putin.

 

That is exactly what should happen and all this postulating either way needs to be notched back a bit until it happens.

[buctootim]

Interesting stuff. Just one thing though. No one has given a 'verdict' yet. And the whole international community has called for a credible international investigation into what happened, not just Putin.

 

That is exactly what should happen and all this postulating either way needs to be notched back a bit until it happens.

 

That article is from Russia Today - so as you you say, just another piece in a propoganda war, not a contribution to any search for the truth.

http://rt.com/op-edge/174088-was-it-putin-missile/

[Gemmel]

Algerian plane now gone missing..... this is getting silly

 

 

Apparently crashed

Edited 24 July, 2014 by Gemmel

[aintforever]

It was Putin's missile! by Pepe Escobar

 

And here's the spin war verdict: the current Malaysia Airlines tragedy - the second in four months - is "terrorism" perpetrated by "pro-Russian separatists", armed by Russia, and Vladimir Putin is the main culprit. End of story. Anyone who believes otherwise, shut up.

 

Why? Because the CIA said so. Because Hillary "We came, we saw, he died" Clinton said so. Because bat**** crazy Samantha "R2P" Power said so - thundering at the UN, everything duly printed by the neo-con infested Washington Post. [1]

 

Because Anglo-American corporate media - from CNN to Fox (who tried to buy Time Warner, which owns CNN) - said so. Because the President of the United States (POTUS) said so. And mostly because Kiev had vociferously said so in the first place.

 

Right off the bat they were all lined up - the invariably hysterical reams of "experts" of the "US intelligence community" literally foaming at their palatial mouths at "evil" Russia and "evil" Putin; intel "experts" who could not identify a convoy of gleaming white Toyotas crossing the Iraqi desert to take Mosul. And yet they have already sentenced they don't need to look any further, instantly solving the MH17 riddle.

 

It doesn't matter that President Putin has stressed the MH17 tragedy must be investigated objectively. And "objectively" certainly does not mean that fictional "international community" notion construed by Washington - the usual congregation of pliable vassals/patsies.

 

And what about Carlos?

A simple search at reveals that MH17 was in fact diverted 200 kilometers north from the usual flight path taken by Malaysia Airlines in the previous days - and plunged right in the middle of a war zone. Why? What sort of communication MH17 received from Kiev air control tower?

 

Kiev has been mute about it. Yet the answer would be simple, had Kiev released the Air Traffic Control recording of the tower talking to flight MH17; Malaysia did it after flight MH370 disappeared forever.

 

It won't happen; SBU security confiscated it. So much for getting an undoctored explanation on why MH17 was off its path, and what the pilots saw and said before the explosion.

 

The Russian Defense Ministry, for its part, has confirmed that a Kiev-controlled Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational near the MH17's crash. Kiev has deployed several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers; these are all perfectly capable of bringing down jets flying at 33,000 ft.

 

Radiation from a battery's Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla (a village some 30km south of Donetsk) was detected by the Russian military. According to the ministry, the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery which was at a firing distance from MH17's flight path. The tracking radar range on the Buk system is a maximum of 50 miles. MH17 was flying at 500 mph. So assuming the "rebels" had an operational Buk and did it, they would have had not more than five minutes to scan all the skies above, all possible altitudes, and then lock on. By then they would have known that a cargo plane could not possibly be flying that high. For evidence supporting the possibility of a false flag, check here.

 

And then there's the curiouser and curiouser story of Carlos, the Spanish air traffic controller working at Kiev's tower, who was following MH17 in real time. For some Carlos is legit - not a cipher; for others, he's never even worked in Ukraine. Anyway he tweeted like mad. His account - not accidentally - has been shut down, and he has disappeared; his friends are now desperately looking for him. I managed to read all his tweets in Spanish when the account was still online - and now copies and an English translation are available.

 

These are some of his crucial tweets:

 

 

"The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar (5.48 pm)"

"If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a few minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)"

"As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed us of the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00)"

"Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don't believe it, it was taken down by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it too (7.14)"

"The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but the Ministry of Defense didn't. (7.15)"

"The military confirm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from. (7.31)"

 

Carlos's assessment (a partial compilation of his tweets is collected here http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/ ): the missile was fired by the Ukraine military under orders of the Ministry of Interior - NOT the Ministry of Defense. Security matters at the Ministry of the Interior happen to be under Andriy Parubiy, who was closely working alongside US neo-cons and Banderastan neo-nazis on Maidan.

 

Assuming Carlos is legit, the assessment makes sense. The Ukrainian military are divided between Chocolate king President Petro Poroshenko - who would like a d?tente with Russia essentially to advance his shady business interests - and Saint Yulia Timoshenko, who's on the record advocating genocide of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine. US neo-cons and US "military advisers" on the ground are proverbially hedging their bets, supporting both the Poroshenko and Timoshenko factions.

 

So who profits?

The key question remains, of course, cui bono? Only the terminally brain dead believe shooting a passenger jet benefits the federalists in Eastern Ukraine, not to mention the Kremlin.

 

As for Kiev, they'd have the means, the motive and the window of opportunity to pull it off - especially after Kiev's militias have been effectively routed, and were in retreat, in the Donbass; and this after Kiev remained dead set on attacking and bombing the population of Eastern Ukraine even from above. No wonder the federalists had to defend themselves.

 

And then there's the suspicious timing. The MH17 tragedy happened two days after the BRICS announced an antidote to the IMF and the World Bank, bypassing the US dollar. And just as Israel "cautiously" advances its new invasion/slow motion ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Malaysia, by the way, is the seat of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, which has found Israel guilty of crimes against humanity.

 

Washington, of course, does profit. What the Empire of Chaos gets in this case is a ceasefire (so the disorganized, battered Kiev militias may be resupplied); the branding of Eastern Ukrainians as de facto "terrorists" (as Kiev, **** Cheney-style, always wanted); and unlimited mud thrown over Russia and Putin in particular until Kingdom Come. Not bad for a few minutes' work. As for NATO, that's Christmas in July.

 

From now on, it all depends on Russian intelligence. They have been surveying/tracking everything that happens in Ukraine 24/7. In the next 72 hours, after poring over a lot of tracking data, using telemetry, radar and satellite tracking, they will know which type of missile was launched, where from, and even produce communications from the battery that launched it. And they will have access to forensic evidence.

 

Unlike Washington - who already knows everything, with no evidence whatsoever (remember 9/11?) - Moscow will take its time to know the basic journalistic facts of what, where, and who, and engage on proving the truth and/or disproving Washington's spin.

 

The historical record shows Washington simply won't release data if it points to a missile coming from its Kiev vassals. The data may even point to a bomb planted on MH17, or mechanical failure - although that's unlikely. If this was a terrible mistake by the Novorossiya rebels, Moscow will have to reluctantly admit it. If Kiev did it, the revelation will be instantaneous. Anyway we already know the hysterical Western response, no matter what; Russia is to blame.

 

Putin is more than correct when he stressed this tragedy would not have happened if Poroshenko had agreed to extend a cease-fire, as Merkel, Hollande and Putin tried to convince him in late June. At a minimum, Kiev is already guilty because they are responsible for safe passage of flights in the airspace they - theoretically - control.

 

But all that is already forgotten in the fog of war, tragedy and hype. As for Washington's hysterical claims of credibility, I leave you with just one number: Iran Air 655.

 

Notes:

 

Some interesting points but weird that they complain about the fog of war yet fail to mention the other evidence, like the rebel's blog saying they had shot down a plane which was then suddenly removed. And the video of the rebels at the fresh crash site sifting through the wreckage saying stuff like "sh!t they are all foreigners".

 

Any investigation should be led by the Dutch and Malaysians to ensure there is no hidden agendas.

[pap]

Interesting stuff. Just one thing though. No one has given a 'verdict' yet. And the whole international community has called for a credible international investigation into what happened, not just Putin.

 

That is exactly what should happen and all this postulating either way needs to be notched back a bit until it happens.

 

Completely agree.

 

That article is from Russia Today - so as you you say, just another piece in a propoganda war, not a contribution to any search for the truth.

http://rt.com/op-edge/174088-was-it-putin-missile/

 

The implied message being that the BBC is somehow trustworthy and impartial?

 

I used to believe that the Beeb was de-beaked after Hutton. Recent revelations have shown it to be an utterly compromised organisation that simultaneously harboured paedos and set up things like Childline.

 

I'll accept your point with the qualification that it's all propaganda.

 

Some interesting points but weird that they complain about the fog of war yet fail to mention the other evidence, like the rebel's blog saying they had shot down a plane which was then suddenly removed. And the video of the rebels at the fresh crash site sifting through the wreckage saying stuff like "sh!t they are all foreigners".

 

The point has been made several times, on this and other topics. Social media is inherently unreliable, and for the sake of argument, how would you tell between a Ukrainian nationalist and a rebel?

 

Any investigation should be led by the Dutch and Malaysians to ensure there is no hidden agendas.

 

On this we concur, but I think it unlikely to happen. The Malaysians have been dragged through the mud twice now, perhaps not coincidentally. This is a country which won't admit Israeli citizens and charged Bush and Blair with war crimes. The fact that it's a moderate Islamic country makes matters even worse. Irrespective of who was responsible for the problems the flights met, it is unrealistic to expect US/UK/Israel to cheer-lead for Malaysia to run the investigation, especially with the entirely unresolved case of MH370.

 

The Dutch are in a tight spot. Russia is their 3rd largest trading partner.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-22/death-of-193-dutch-strains-russian-relations-for-shell-heineken.html

http://www.smh.com.au/business/world-business/mh17-crash-death-of-193-dutch-strains-russia-relations-for-shell-heineken-20140723-zvw5j.html

 

Incidentally, those two articles are another great example of the "rush to judgement". Already talking about breaking off trade relations because of unproven claims, backed only by social media.

Edited 24 July, 2014 by pap

[Gemmel]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-28465010

 

Now on BBC for Algerian missing plane

[buctootim]

Russia has a bigger problem with ultra nationalists and neo-Nazis than Ukraine. Good piece here about Russian neo-nazis operating in Eastern Ukraine, possibly 'co-opted' by Putin. My long standing friend in Ekaterinburg has a different take - she reckons Putin is deliberately letting them mess up so badly they lose support within Russia.

=42481&no_cache=1#.U9D9WWOnHt8"]http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=42481&no_cache=1#.U9D9WWOnHt8

 

The Involvement of Russian Ultra-Nationalists in the Donbas Conflict

Publication: Eurasia Daily Monitor Volume: 11 Issue: 105

June 11, 2014 05:03 PM Age: 43 days

By: Richard Arnold

 

(Source: Reuters)

 

Several cities in Donbas, the eastern portion of Ukraine comprising the regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, have been embroiled in Russian-sponsored secessionist violence against Ukrainian authorities since early April 2014. And while Russia has no officially identified uniformed troops in the region, there are claims that it has been involved in the fighting through the deployment of irregulars, like the Chechen Vostok battalion (see EDM, May 30). Other irregular forces have also been involved, such as hardline Russian nationalists. Now it appears there are connections to the most extreme nationalists, Russia’s neo-Nazi movement. Posting on Facebook, Alexander Belov, the leader of the banned Movement Against Illegal Immigration (known by its Russian acronym DPNI), announced the death in Donetsk of Sergei Vorotsev. Vorotsev was a former organizer for the DPNI in the Moscow Region town of Korolev (Official Facebook page of DPNI, June 4). According to the same posting, Vorotsev was killed in the battle for the Donetsk airport.

 

The presence of a former member of the DPNI in eastern Ukraine is not entirely surprising, but it does suggest a merging of the goals of such movements and of the Russian regime. Similarly, other neo-Nazi groups have also tried to become involved in the Ukrainian crisis, with the group “Sputnik and Pogrom” organizing humanitarian aid for those ethnic Russians affected by the fighting in the region. A banner bearing the slogan “Donbas says thank you” was posted on their site to thank all those who had donated financial aid (sputnikipogrom.com). On another neo-Nazi website (officially banned in Russia but purportedly hosted on servers in the United States to prevent closure by the Kremlin), that of the skinhead gang “Slavyansky Soyuz” (Slavic Union), there is a call for Russia to start arming the separatists or even to provide more substantial aid due to the disproportionate array of forces deployed against them by the government in Kyiv (http://www.demushkin.com/content/news/222/8964.html). Finally, an individual from the “Russkiye” ethno-political movement, which grew out of the 2011 protests against United Russia and the reelection of President Vladimir Putin (and whose membership overlaps with many other neo-Nazi gangs), expressed condolences on May 18 to the families of those killed in the fighting in Donbas, saying that “we must prepare ourselves for new victims” (http://www.dpni.org/articles/vazhnoe/39003/).

 

It also seems that the extreme nationalists have renounced their position in the Russian political opposition movement. Illustratively, the calls by some nationalists for a “new Manezh” (street protest) against Putin on May 18 were dismissed by most Far Right leaders as a provocation (http://www.sova-center.ru/racism-xenophobia/publications/2014/06/d29635/). This evidence strongly suggests, therefore, the Kremlin has now co-opted the neo-Nazi movement.

 

Nevertheless, the Russian Far Right’s involvement in Donbas has consequences for the unity of other irregular forces who are supporting the separatists in eastern Ukraine. Specifically, not all the Russian neo-Nazis were happy with the prospect of working with other elements—especially the Chechens—in the fight for eastern Ukraine. On DPNI leader Belov’s Facebook page, for instance, there were comments, presumably from other neo-Nazis, deriding the involvement of the Chechens. Indeed, Belov himself posted commentary on the DPNI website complaining that Chechens were in Donbas “with [Chechen leader Ramzan] Kadyrov’s blessing and for money” and not out of reasons of patriotism or ethnic belonging (http://www.dpni.org/articles/novostnaya/39200/). This was despite the denials from Chechen president and Kremlin appointee Kadyrov that he had directed any Chechens to go to Donbas. Ethnic-Russian nationalists question the commitment of the Chechens and other North Caucasians to the cause of “Novorossiya” (“New Russia,” a vision declared by Vladimir Putin on April 17 calling for bringing southeastern Ukraine under some form of Russian control—see EDM, May 1). Rather, many ethnic Russians perceive people from the Caucasus as foreign at best and all too often as hostile aliens. Indeed, there has been a spate of race riots against people from the Caucasus in Russia in recent times (see EDM, March 5), which presumably was something the organizers of the May 18 rally were trying to provoke. It is tempting to conclude that the irregular Russian juggernaut now fighting in eastern Ukraine is held together by its common goals, but it will have to keep winning future victories or it will dissolve in internal squabbling.

 

The evidence that the Kremlin is working with neo-Nazi or ultranationalist forces in Donbas is highly ironic but not surprising. The regime’s allies in the Russian Far Right make the Kremlin’s warnings of a “neo-Nazi” takeover in Kyiv seem even more incredulous. Ostensibly, it was concerns over the role of the Ukrainian neo-Nazi group “Right Sector” and its leader Dmitri Yarosh in the new government that served as justification for the Russian government to annex Crimea. Kremlin propaganda from the time told of mass shootings carried out by Right Sector and even broadcast what it alleged to be photographs of corpses lying in freshly-dug mass graves (http://antimaydan.info/2014/03/lider_neonacistskoj_gruppirovki_pravyj_sektor_dmitrij_yarosh_zayavil__37446.html). While, Right Sector has indeed been involved in a number of violent actions in Ukraine such as an April 2014 attack on a court and judge in the country (http://novorossy.ru/news/news_post/pravyy-sektor-zahvatil-verhovnyy-sud-ukrainy-a-nakazhut-yugo), the fact that the Kremlin is working with its own domestic neo-Nazi movement makes its claims seem all the more disingenuous.

 

The Russian Far Right’s involvement in the Ukraine crisis and its growing ties to the Kremlin also provide a warning of how volatile the current situation is inside Russia itself. If such trends continue, the next Kremlin occupant could very well be openly sympathetic to the Russian neo-Nazi movement, and such an outcome would truly be a dire situation for the country, Eurasia and the world (see EDM, February 13,

Edited 24 July, 2014 by buctootim

[Gemmel]

14:14: Real Madrid Info tweets: The plane #AH5017 that disappeared today was used by the Real Madrid between 2007 & 2009 known as "La Saeta"[@Marca]

 

 

Am I reading this right, that the missing Algerian plane, was the same plane as used by Real Madrid squad in 2009?

[andysstuff]

There's certainly a Spanish connection reading earlier reports - both pilots were Spanish and I think a Spanish co own the plane.

[buctootim]

14:14: Real Madrid Info tweets: The plane #AH5017 that disappeared today was used by the Real Madrid between 2007 & 2009 known as "La Saeta"[@Marca] Am I reading this right, that the missing Algerian plane, was the same plane as used by Real Madrid squad in 2009?

 

There's certainly a Spanish connection reading earlier reports - both pilots were Spanish and I think a Spanish co own the plane.

 

Apparently it was on charter from a Spanish airline.

[Dr. Kucho]

Living in the Netherlands the Malaysian plane crash has been huge. Have been out the country for the last few days, but still big news here with special broadcasts throughout the day. The speech by the Dutch foreign minister was moving.

At the gym I work a 20 year boy lost both his mother and step dad in the crash.

[pap]

Pap - with the aid of some Spanish sun, a few pints and a nice glass of red, I'm coming down on the conspiracy side with regard to the original plane from this thread.

 

I've given you stick in the past so you can laugh at me now.

 

I meant to reply to this ages ago. It may have been all of those things, but I won't be having a laugh at your expense.

 

It's a very interesting case, both in its unresolved nature and the way that the story eventually disappeared from the radar. With MH17 and the now confirmed crash today, there is probably even less chance that the story will get the attention it deserves.

 

That doesn't imply any sort of plan, btw. Just the way it is.

[melmacian_saint]

AH5017 was operated by Swiftair for Air Algerie, a sort of Spanish version of Flightline (for the British airline market ITKs).

 

It's called a wet-lease arrangement, where you pay an airline to operate with their crew and aircraft on your behalf. Extremely common practice around the world, especially in the summer months where the demand is higher but not enough to make it viable to expand organically, which is probably the case with Air Algerie. It's also common for start-up airlines to do it.

 

Seems that a very bad sandstorm may have caught it...

[Halo Stickman]

 

The Involvement of Russian Ultra-Nationalists in the Donbas Conflict

Publication: Eurasia Daily Monitor Volume: 11 Issue: 105

June 11, 2014 05:03 PM Age: 43 days

By: Richard Arnold

 

(Source: Reuters)

 

The evidence that the Kremlin is working with neo-Nazi or ultranationalist forces in Donbas is highly ironic but not surprising.

 

As someone who grew up during the Cold War, there does seem a certain irony in the Russian leader becoming the political darling of the far-right in certain quarters.

 

Here is a link to an article published in the New Republic magazine May 2014 by Andrew Foxall, Director of the Russia Studies Centre at The Henry Jackson Society, a London-based international affairs think-tank:

 

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117838/putins-far-right-european-admirers-run-european-parliament-may

 

It’s always important to check out sources, so here is a link for people to decide for themselves the credibility and possible biases or prejudices of the Henry Jackson Society.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Jackson_Society

 

It’s also interesting to read what some of the USA hard-right Republicans think about Putin (admittedly this link is from a liberal source published in March 2014):

 

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/03/10/republicans-dream-leader-vladimir-putin.html

[Window Cleaner]

AH5017 was operated by Swiftair for Air Algerie, a sort of Spanish version of Flightline (for the British airline market ITKs).

 

It's called a wet-lease arrangement, where you pay an airline to operate with their crew and aircraft on your behalf. Extremely common practice around the world, especially in the summer months where the demand is higher but not enough to make it viable to expand organically, which is probably the case with Air Algerie. It's also common for start-up airlines to do it.

 

 

Seems that a very bad sandstorm may have caught it...

 

The fact that Hollande is personally supervising the com on this event tells me that it wasn't a sandstorm, unless that's the name of some SAM or other.

[melmacian_saint]

The fact that Hollande is personally supervising the com on this event tells me that it wasn't a sandstorm, unless that's the name of some SAM or other.

 

Maybe the fact that the area is unstable, the French have been there for a year and their army are conducting the rescue effort?

 

Are we just going to assume that from now on every plane that crashes is shot down?

[Window Cleaner]

Maybe the fact that the area is unstable, the French have been there for a year and their army are conducting the rescue effort?

 

Are we just going to assume that from now on every plane that crashes is shot down?

 

I am well aware of where the french forces are active thanks, I have a son who's with them. Not going to say any more than that.

[melmacian_saint]

I am well aware of where the french forces are active thanks, I have a son who's with them. Not going to say any more than that.

 

We've read all sorts of stuff on here so I'm just going to assume your theory is that it was another horrible mistake?

[Window Cleaner]

We've read all sorts of stuff on here so I'm just going to assume your theory is that it was another horrible mistake?

 

not really no, Hollande is handling the com with his PM and DM for a reason, what that is I couldn't say. It's a sensitive zone to be sure, our lads are trying to get the rabble out of it but it's not an easy job.

[pap]

Ukraine : the selectivity of the media

 

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85098

 

The photos of the separatist controlled BUKs, apparently proving their complicity, were taken back in March.