Malaysia Airlines plane missing

[Ludwig]

That's good to know. Of course, the term 'weaponised language' is also weaponised language. Boiled down it means: "It's a conspiracy kids!"

 

Using the term "kids" in this context implies that adults are mature and intelligent enough to understand the complexities of the world and only young, uninformed minds need it pointing out. Is that weaponised language?

[pap]

That's good to know. Of course, the term 'weaponised language' is also weaponised language. Boiled down it means: "It's a conspiracy kids!"

 

The word "terrorist" is an interesting sibling, I reckon.

 

If you're charged as a murderer, you get a trial. If you're labelled a terrorist, it's a tazer, bag over the head and a cargo class flight to a torture facility. If you're lucky, it'll be one that the press knows about.

[RedArmy]

http://www.intellihub.com/will-matching-malaysian-airlines-777-stored-israeli-hangar-later-used-false-flag-attack/

[buctootim]

http://www.intellihub.com/will-matching-malaysian-airlines-777-stored-israeli-hangar-later-used-false-flag-attack/

 

MH17 was built in a diffferent year had a totally different serial number and a different registration number. Apart from those minor details, spooky.

http://aviationweek.com/blog/airframe-details-malaysia-airlines-mh17

Edited 20 July, 2014 by buctootim

[JackFrost]

If anyone needs to know how much credibility we have in threatening sanctions against Putin/Russia because they apparently supplied the rebels with an anti-aircraft system that was used in the attack then they should bear in mind the following.

 

We have sold well over £400 million of arms to the Russian government since 2008 and have been continuing to sell them arms way after the Crimean crisis started. As of 4 months ago we still have 271 separate export licences active. This equipment has included sniper rifles, ammunition, drones, laser technology, air vehicles, military helicopters and spy equipment.

 

We'll go to the ends of the Earth to pretend we're doing something but there are good reasons why we'll do virtually nothing.

[sadoldgit]

The disregard for the lives of innocent men women and children never ceases to amaze me. Here we are in 2014 with thousands of years of experience behind us as a supposedly constantly evolving and growing life form and we (well some of us) continue to act like monsters. I hope those responsible are found, convicted and rot in jail. You watch the programmes about the First and Second World Wars and realise that nothing has really changed. For all the pain and suffereing we are still capable of producing these sickening atroceties.

[Batman]

and we want to welcome these people with open arms to the EU

brilliant

[Jonnyboy]

and we want to welcome these people with open arms to the EU

brilliant

 

Erm... These are the ones that don't want to be in the EU.

 

Edit: a bit like you and Mr farage.

[Whitey Grandad]

and we want to welcome these people with open arms to the EU

brilliant

 

Who's 'we'? There's no enthusiasm for it anywhere in the EU.

[buctootim]

The self proclaimed Government of the People's Republic of Lugansk.

 

Looting bodies

 

 

https://twitter.com/LawDavF/media

Edited 21 July, 2014 by buctootim

[pap]

Official statement from the Russians.

 

http://english.pravda.ru/russia/kremlin/18-07-2014/128078-russian_defense_ministry_boeing-0/

 

Interesting bit:-

 

"Statements from official Kiev saying that those complexes or aircraft did not open fire on air targets raise serious doubts. In such a short period of time, making such unequivocal conclusions under the conditions of fierce fighting in the area is impossible. Such responsible statements that entail serious legal consequences, require full investigation."

[buctootim]

The Russians are making all kinds of claims, most of them ludicrous. I have never seen a government lie as directly as the Russians, particulalrly Lavrov, have over the past 6 months.

 

1. That they arent arming the rebels. Where else did these brand new Russian made uniforms and weapons come from in a land locked area hemmed in by Ukraine and Russia?

2. MH17 was tracked by a Ukrainian SU25 fighter. The SU25 is an aging ground attack aircraft with an altitude ceiling of 23,000 feet. The only air to air missiles it is capable of carrying are light and short range with a tiny 3kg warhead not capable of blowing apart a 777 in mid air.

3. They have put up low resolution photos of supposed Ukrainian army BUK units operating in rebel controlled territory. It is impossible to identify anything from those photos, except that when deployed the unit was alone. An AA battery has no form of self defence. nobody would send it out into enemy territory without some kind of armoured column to protect it.

 

The rebels shot down the aircraft, probably unintentionally, with arms supplied by Russia. The only question is whether Putin knew in advance

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

Edited 21 July, 2014 by buctootim

[pap]

The Russians are making all kinds of claims, most of them ludicrous. I have never seen a government lie as directly as the Russians, particulalrly Lavrov, have over the past 6 months.

 

1. That they arent arming the rebels. Where else did these brand new Russian made uniforms and weapons come from in a land locked area hemmed in by Ukraine and Russia?

2. MH17 was tracked by a Ukrainian SU25 fighter. The SU25 is an aging ground attack aircraft with an altitude ceiling of 23,000 feet. The only air to air missiles it is capable of carrying are light and short range with a tiny 3kg warhead not capable of blowing apart a 777 in mid air.

3. They have put up low resolution photos of supposed Ukrainian army BUK units operating in rebel controlled territory. It is impossible to identify anything from those photos, except that when deployed the unit was alone. An AA battery has no form of self defence. nobody would send it out into enemy territory without some kind of armoured column to protect it.

 

The rebels shot down the aircraft, probably unintentionally, with arms supplied by Russia. The only question is whether Putin knew in advance

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

 

You must have quite the geopolitical nerve-centre in Sussex, Tim.

 

Alas, the limited resources in Liverpool don't leave me with as much dogmatic certainty.

 

I don't trust the Ukrainians at all, or anything coming out of that country right now. Some of the stories that have surfaced are an immediate indicator of fishiness. When a plane is shot down, why the hell is it important to claim that pro-Russian forces have been stealing from the dead? That is the least important aspect of the incident, puffed up and made big to generate disgust. Seems all a bit Hillsborough to me.

 

Let's entertain a wilder claim from Ukraine; that the BUK's are so complex that the pro-Rebels must have had ongoing and operational support from Russians when the missile was fired. I really like this one. It goes for broke, in the sense that it tries to create a direct tie to Putin and MH17. Thing is, it doesn't really make any sense. What good has Putin derived from this incident? What were the perceived benefits of shooting an international airliner out of the sky?

 

The only party that has benefited from the tragedy are the pro-West Ukrainians and those that are supporting them. That doesn't exclude your hypothesis btw; the rebels could have shot down the plane and the Ukrainians could just be creating the corpse-robbin' propaganda.

 

World attention has been fading recently; little international relevance once you mute the screeches of the loudest hawks. There is little that is as tangibly international as a long-haul passenger flight, and few things that'll generate as much attention when one goes missing. Ukraine is back on the international agenda and Putin is a monster that is responsible for shooting down innocent internationals, right?

 

Personally, I think the Ukrainians engineered this crisis themselves.

Edited 22 July, 2014 by pap

[pap]

A report of an alleged Spanish aircraft controller in Ukraine.

 

http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/

Edited 22 July, 2014 by pap

[aintforever]

Personally, I think the Ukrainians engineered this crisis themselves.

 

You thought the Lee Rigby murder was an elaborate false flag operation carried out by the UK government, despite the fact that the guys were seen doing it, filmed doing it and admitted doing it on camera whilst covered in blood holding a meat cleaver.

[buctootim]

You thought the Lee Rigby murder was an elaborate false flag operation carried out by the UK government, despite the fact that the guys were seen doing it, filmed doing it and admitted doing it on camera whilst covered in blood holding a meat cleaver.

 

His thought processes are fried. Believing a random blog about a fictious spanish air traffic controller despite the Spanish confirming the account is bogus and that no Spaniards worked in Ukrainian air traffic control is just the latest.

Edited 22 July, 2014 by buctootim

[pap]

You thought the Lee Rigby murder was an elaborate false flag operation carried out by the UK government, despite the fact that the guys were seen doing it, filmed doing it and admitted doing it on camera whilst covered in blood holding a meat cleaver.

 

You said you were never going to discuss this again out of respect, didn't you? How many times have you done so now for cheap point scoring?

 

Still, this chronic lack of memory is to be expected if you ainttooclever.

 

His thought processes are fried. Believing a random blog about a fictious spanish air traffic controller despite the Spanish confirming the account is bogus and that no Spaniards worked in Ukrainian air traffic control is just the latest.

 

Ha! I thought that'd draw you out. I've read the debunkings too, Tim. You've made my morning by scurrying about the internet and doing the same.

 

Which one was your favourite?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

 

Personally, I think the Ukrainians engineered this crisis themselves.

 

So could Pro-Russian Ukrainians be included in that

 

Keeping your options open. I like it.

[pap]

So could Pro-Russian Ukrainians be included in that

 

Keeping your options open. I like it.

 

Indeed. The Ukrainians have been bombing the shít out of their own people during the course of this civil war, not something that you're hearing a great deal about in the media. You can bet that the rebels have been trying to shoot shít out of the sky.

 

I think most laymen will accept that the picture of those flight routes shows MH17 veering off its normal course.

 

Get the appropriate disinformation into the rebel ranks (military plane flying out at....) and you have all the ingredients for an international incident.

[buctootim]

MH17 was flying commercial air route L980 / A87 in common with other MH17 flights previously

 

Other MH17 routes on previous days

 

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html?_r=0

 

Other flights on July 17th

Edited 22 July, 2014 by buctootim

[pap]

Other flights on July 17th

 

MH17 deviated, a point which you tacitly acknowledged by changing your "It didn't deviate!" post to "...".

[aintforever]

You said you were never going to discuss this again out of respect, didn't you? How many times have you done so now for cheap point scoring?

 

Still, this chronic lack of memory is to be expected if you ainttooclever.

 

I'm just putting your posts into some context.

 

You don't look at the evidence and make rational judgements, you have some agenda inspired conspiracy in your head (usually anti American/Israeli) from the start and desperately try and twist facts to suit.

[pap]

I'm just putting your posts into some context.

 

You don't look at the evidence and make rational judgements, you have some agenda inspired conspiracy in your head (usually anti American/Israeli) from the start and desperately try and twist facts to suit.

 

No, you're avoiding any serious discussions of the points made by referring to a year old argument, which you and your pals said you'd never discuss again, in an effort at a quick coup de grace.

 

Tell me. How many times has that worked exactly? Your big boss Verbal is in hiding from his own identity & Complete Bollócks Fry has moved on to destroying himself with his own content.

 

I'm still here, getting asked for my opinions on this thread on matters conspiracy.

 

Bang up job on character assassination there, boys x

Edited 22 July, 2014 by pap

[Minty]

A photo of a piece of debris a few miles from the main crash site shows clear evidence of a fragmenting warhead from a SAM:

 

 

More pics and background here: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/21/world/europe/wreckage-offers-clues-on-why-flight-17-went-down.html

[JackFrost]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28424115

 

Are these the same black boxes that have apparently already been sent to Moscow?

[Minty]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28424115

 

Are these the same black boxes that have apparently already been sent to Moscow?

 

That was never confirmed, only an unconfirmed rumour at the time.

[JackFrost]

That was never confirmed, only an unconfirmed rumour at the time.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that the Russian Government explanation is equally as credible as the US and British Government explanations?

 

If you are, ask yourself why the flight and voice recorders from an American built aircraft registered in Malaysia on a flight from Netherlands to Malaysia that "crashed" in Ukraine were stolen from the site and taken to Russia for "examination"?

 

If it looks like a guilty duck, walks like a guilty duck and quacks like a guilty duck, it's probably not a swan.

 

It seemed to be a forgone conclusion 1 page ago.

[Batman]

Erm... These are the ones that don't want to be in the EU.

 

Edit: a bit like you and Mr farage.

 

yeah, because the other lot are just brilliant

two sides of the same coin, I reckon

[hypochondriac]

No, you're avoiding any serious discussions of the points made by referring to a year old argument, which you and your pals said you'd never discuss again, in an effort at a quick coup de grace.

 

Tell me. How many times has that worked exactly? Your big boss Verbal is in hiding from his own identity & Complete Bollócks Fry has moved on to destroying himself with his own content.

 

I'm still here, getting asked for my opinions on this thread on matters conspiracy.

 

Bang up job on character assassination there, boys x

 

It's worth bringing it up now and again to remind people who may not have been around at the time. It allows people to put your others views in context.

[pap]

It's worth bringing it up now and again to remind people who may not have been around at the time. It allows people to put your others views in context.

 

Coming from the man who goes around libelling people as child abusers.

 

 

Consider your views in context, sir. Worth reminding people, innit?

[Picard]

Russian press conference presenting their satellite and radar data.

 

http://player.rutv.ru/iframe/video/id/822433/acc_video_id/610598/isPlay/false/time_play/1/

[Minty]

It seemed to be a forgone conclusion, for one person on this thread, 1 page ago.

 

That would've been more appropriate.

 

I prefer to deal in the facts as we know them (or as we are presented them, before Pap dives in).

[buctootim]

Russian press conference presenting their satellite and radar data.

 

http://player.rutv.ru/iframe/video/id/822433/acc_video_id/610598/isPlay/false/time_play/1/

 

Jeez thats hard to watch. Sounds like the woman who usually does the Eurovison scores broadcasting from an echo chamber. A lot of echos of the shooting down of the Korean plane in the 80s where there denied everything and then changed their story every time they got caught out.

[aintforever]

No, you're avoiding any serious discussions of the points made by referring to a year old argument, which you and your pals said you'd never discuss again, in an effort at a quick coup de grace.

 

Tell me. How many times has that worked exactly? Your big boss Verbal is in hiding from his own identity & Complete Bollócks Fry has moved on to destroying himself with his own content.

 

I'm still here, getting asked for my opinions on this thread on matters conspiracy.

 

Bang up job on character assassination there, boys x

 

Paranoid as well as delusional, think you need help mate.

 

As you the points you made on this thread. If any of the qualified airline pilots on here think that MH17's flight path is cause for suspicion I would take their opinion seriously but me commenting on your uninformed opinion is pointless.

 

Every airline pilot and air traffic controller in the World is free to comment on the flightpath in the media, if there was anything suspicious about it we would have heard over and over again.

[pap]

Russian press conference presenting their satellite and radar data.

 

http://player.rutv.ru/iframe/video/id/822433/acc_video_id/610598/isPlay/false/time_play/1/

 

Thanks, Picard - FWIW, I agree with Tim - bit heavy going, but some interesting claims in there regardless.

 

Someone is lying, and it's well worth remembering that we live right at the center of the de facto Anglo-American bubble. There are other power blocs out there that'll get past the very heavy accents and perk up to listen to what the Russians have to say. BRICS members would spring to mind.

 

So if someone is lying, what do we believe?

 

The Russians put forward some reasonably detailed evidence in support of their claims. I know you can always knock a nation when they use their own data in a clear conflict of interests, but this is a little different from Israeli intelligence reports claiming that Assad DEFINITELY did the chemical attacks, dovetailed with Hague saying "vanishingly small" a lot (bit like his career, then). There is a degree of independent verification that can be sought, not least with the flight recorders that have just been released for investigation.

 

Anyway, major Russian claims:-

 

Ukrainian BUKs nearby (photography)

Ukrainian Military aircraft near MH17, despite Ukr claims to contrary

 

Major questions:-

 

The US reckon they've got footage of the missile being launched. The Russians are quite keen on seeing it.

The Russians showed a picture of a BUK, allegedly in Ukr-loyal hands, in an apparently "fired" state.

 

Video is tough going, but worth a watch.

[pap]

Paranoid as well as delusional, think you need help mate.

 

As you the points you made on this thread. If any of the qualified airline pilots on here think that MH17's flight path is cause for suspicion I would take their opinion seriously but me commenting on your uninformed opinion is pointless.

 

Every airline pilot and air traffic controller in the World is free to comment on the flightpath in the media, if there was anything suspicious about it we would have heard over and over again.

 

You don't know me. Your continued presumption that you do is a source of constant amusement. Are you a medical doctor, like Tim?

 

Anyway, I see that you found the one point you could argue on and very proud we are of you for making a fair stab given the available resources.

 

Still, keep the patronising nastiness up. It'll make your big reveal day all the sweeter.

Edited 22 July, 2014 by pap
Edited a lot; I fecked up :)

[JackFrost]

That would've been more appropriate.

 

I prefer to deal in the facts as we know them (or as we are presented them, before Pap dives in).

 

Agree on both counts.

 

'Facts' and 'allegations made by the Ukrainian government/western media' seem to get confused easily with some. Personally I don't believe the Ukrainian government any more I do the Russian government.

[Lighthouse]

The self proclaimed Government of the People's Republic of Lugansk.

 

They look like a friendly bunch.

[Picard]

World Cup 2018

 

Predictions?

[Goatboy]

 

It's the Pompey boardroom.

[pap]

They look like a friendly bunch.

 

They are probably just happy to be part of history. They are the biggest civilian population to be bombed in Europe since WW2.

 

Not so happy pictures in this link:-

 

http://revolution-news.com/the-bombing-of-civilians-in-lugansk-by-the-kyiv-government-graphic-behind-ukraines-walls-of-fire-iv/

[aintforever]

They are probably just happy to be part of history. They are the biggest civilian population to be bombed in Europe since WW2.

 

Not so happy pictures in this link:-

 

http://revolution-news.com/the-bombing-of-civilians-in-lugansk-by-the-kyiv-government-graphic-behind-ukraines-walls-of-fire-iv/

 

If anything the fact that the Ukraine government are using aircraft to bomb makes it more likely that the Russian Separatists were targeting aircraft and shot MH17 down by mistake.

[pap]

If anything the fact that the Ukraine government are using aircraft to bomb makes it more likely that the Russian Separatists were targeting aircraft and shot MH17 down by mistake.

 

Cheers genius. I made that point myself posts ago.

[Whitey Grandad]

If anything the fact that the Ukraine government are using aircraft to bomb makes it more likely that the Russian Separatists were targeting aircraft and shot MH17 down by mistake.

 

And even more risky to be flying through it all.

[Lighthouse]

World Cup 2018

 

Predictions?

 

People's Republic of Luhansk to beat England in the group stages.

[pap]

And even more risky to be flying through it all.

 

Also makes the repeated claims that the Ukrainian military have no assets in the area look ridiculous.

 

I accept that a rebel shoot down could be an option, but I think its crazy to have an authoritative opinion on who did what so early in the game, in the middle of a war zone. If nothing else, this proves the effectiveness of propaganda on the weak-minded. They'd be fúcked if they ever met a jedi

[Minty]

If nothing else, this proves the effectiveness of propaganda on the weak-minded.

 

You are aware of the potential irony of that statement I hope!

[pap]

You are aware of the potential irony of that statement I hope!

 

Oh aye, but contrary to what you might have read from others, I very rarely say "x definitely happened". No point. People don't like being told what to think, and I'd be lying if I said I knew anyway.

 

Unfortunately, my unpaid PR department do a fúcking terrible job of representation. Most of the stuff they get so annoyed about are simply questions about dodgy aspects of reported events, although that doesn't stop them from saying I believe this, or I believe that. I've gone to considerable lengths to distinguish "belief" from "taking stuff seriously". They don't listen

 

I'd sack them, but they love their jobs.

[aintforever]

Cheers genius. I made that point myself posts ago.

 

Well done, I'm proud of you for that. It looks like you may be learning something - you actually looked at the evidence and made some sort of rational judgement based on it. Has to be a first.

[buctootim]

Oh aye, but contrary to what you might have read from others, I very rarely say "x definitely happened". No point. People don't like being told what to think, and I'd be lying if I said I knew anyway.

 

Unfortunately, my unpaid PR department do a fúcking terrible job of representation. Most of the stuff they get so annoyed about are simply questions about dodgy aspects of reported events, although that doesn't stop them from saying I believe this, or I believe that. I've gone to considerable lengths to distinguish "belief" from "taking stuff seriously". They don't listen

 

Posting up the same old conspiracy stuff for every event involving people getting killed and showing the same thrill everytime in no way can be construed as demonstrating your beliefs, no sir no way. You're just posting up stuff from the same point of view everytime for discussion. Thats the tactics of a man who believes carp but isnt prepared to stand by his views when challenged.