Malaysia Airlines plane missing

[buctootim]

Inmarsat VP - "no GPS, no time and distance information". Industry needs to evolve. Reports every 15 minutes which detail time, speed, direction and position can be done now for $1 per hour.

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26723980

Edited 25 March, 2014 by buctootim

[Whitey Grandad]

Inmarsat "no GPS, no time and distance information".

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26723980

 

Let's not be too precious over what was said or passed on from personal contacts. It's very easy for the precise meaning to get modified or misinterpreted but what is important is the general gist of the information and I'm sure we are all grateful that anyone should take the time to pass on what they have heard.

[buctootim]

Let's not be too precious over what was said or passed on from personal contacts. It's very easy for the precise meaning to get modified or misinterpreted but what is important is the general gist of the information and I'm sure we are all grateful that anyone should take the time to pass on what they have heard.

 

I agree - all input is valuable, especially from those with first hand experience of the subject in hand. At times I have been guilty of misinterpreting things as I'm sure all other posters have too. The post is directed at those who would have us believe governments knew where it was all along but chose not to say.

Edited 25 March, 2014 by buctootim

[Wade Garrett]

I bow to the obvious expertise on this thread. But, why has it taken so long to come to this conclusion? It seems to me that this is no more than a mathematical theory, based in part, on one or two assumptions.

 

I'm still not convinced we are being told the whole story.

[pap]

I bow to the obvious expertise on this thread. But, why has it taken so long to come to this conclusion? It seems to me that this is no more than a mathematical theory, based in part, on one or two assumptions.

 

I'm still not convinced we are being told the whole story.

 

Nor me. Many of the proposed theories have been debunked on little more than a government statement. There seems to have been no follow-up on the Kuda Huvadhoo sightings either.

 

http://www.ibtimes.com/malaysia-airlines-flight-spotted-maldives-examining-latest-theory-mh370-1562221

[buctootim]

The Maldives coast guard told CNN it had no reports of such sightings and had not even been requested to conduct a search.

 

The acting Malaysian transport minister also declared the reports false.

 

"I can confirm that the Malaysian Chief of the Defense Force has contacted his counterpart in the Maldives, who has confirmed that these reports are not true," Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said at a press conference.

 

The Maldives Ministry of Defense and National Security also confirmed that their radar systems and surveillance mechanisms show no indication of the missing plane.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/19/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane-ground-witnesses/

[Window Cleaner]

I bow to the obvious expertise on this thread. But, why has it taken so long to come to this conclusion? It seems to me that this is no more than a mathematical theory, based in part, on one or two assumptions.

 

I'm still not convinced we are being told the whole story.

 

The exact same theory was being put about from about the 12/14th March onwards, seems the Malaysians didn't want to accept until they had some sort of solid basis to uphold it, they still don't really but I guess they just grew tired of all the

circus in KL.

[pap]

The Maldives coast guard told CNN it had no reports of such sightings and had not even been requested to conduct a search.

 

The acting Malaysian transport minister also declared the reports false.

 

"I can confirm that the Malaysian Chief of the Defense Force has contacted his counterpart in the Maldives, who has confirmed that these reports are not true," Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said at a press conference.

 

The Maldives Ministry of Defense and National Security also confirmed that their radar systems and surveillance mechanisms show no indication of the missing plane.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/19/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane-ground-witnesses/

 

Like I said, a lot of this stuff has been debunked with just a government say-so.

[buctootim]

Like I said, a lot of this stuff has been debunked with just a government say-so.

 

Er no. The reports never existed. It was made up. Unless of course the Maldives coastguard and defence force are in cahoots with the Malaysians and Austalians and Chinese and Americans and Inmarsat and the UK Air Accidents Investigations Branch and France and CNN and......

[PhilippineSaint]

Have they actually found it yet then????

[buctootim]

Have they actually found it yet then????

 

The Australian General in charge of the search said yesterday they weren't searching for a needle in a haystack, because they haven't found the haystack yet.

[View From The Top]

I wonder if we will ever find out the truth as this whole thing is murkier than kanu's birth certificate.

[pap]

Er no. The reports never existed. It was made up. Unless of course the Maldives coastguard and defence force are in cahoots with the Malaysians and Austalians and Chinese and Americans and Inmarsat and the UK Air Accidents Investigations Branch and France and CNN and......

 

Now you're leaping a little. There's no evidence to suggest that the story was fabricated, except the government refusal.

 

As for your list of potential co-conspirators, are they really all required here? Does CNN have radar and military installations in the area? Why do you insist that all of these other agencies need to be involved? I think that potentially some do, but the reports really come from one place. Discredit it there, propagate the story and you're done.

[Window Cleaner]

Now you're leaping a little. There's no evidence to suggest that the story was fabricated, except the government refusal.

 

As for your list of potential co-conspirators, are they really all required here? Does CNN have radar and military installations in the area? Why do you insist that all of these other agencies need to be involved? I think that potentially some do, but the reports really come from one place. Discredit it there, propagate the story and you're done.

 

Honestly those reports were never sustainable, if an unidentified aircraft had flown that low over the Maldives it would appear on the OTH radars at Diego, it obviously didn't so it didn't. It was always a crock of crap. They might have seen a low flying aircraft but it wasn't MH370.

[pap]

Honestly those reports were never sustainable, if an unidentified aircraft had flown that low over the Maldives it would appear on the OTH radars at Diego, it obviously didn't so it didn't. It was always a crock of crap. They might have seen a low flying aircraft but it wasn't MH370.

 

A lot of people over at the DIF reckon that the plane landed in Diego Garcia, citing the sighting as something that supports their claim.

[Window Cleaner]

A lot of people over at the DIF reckon that the plane landed in Diego Garcia, citing the sighting as something that supports their claim.

 

No it didn't, take that as read, it's just made up ******.

[pap]

No it didn't, take that as read, it's just made up ******.

 

With a complete absence of evidence, I don't think you can take anything as read.

[Window Cleaner]

With a complete absence of evidence, I don't think you can take anything as read.

 

 

As you wish, although I think you jest sire.. The evidence is that there is no evidence.

[buctootim]

 

Actually **** it. I dont want to derail this serious thread into another conspiracy fruitloop discussion.

[Minty]

There's clear evidence now that it was in the South Indian Ocean, and given that has been corroborated by the AAIB, that's good enough for me.

 

To progress any other theory, especially some of the more outlandish conspiracies going around, would require would require some pretty good evidence from a similar organisation. But there is none.

 

Each to their own. It's important to keep an open mind on any subject, especially when there is a lack of alternatives, but when the pursuance of a conspiracy such as this would go against the worlds leading Accident Investigation organisation, you have to ask why you think it is still worth pursuing, and whether you really want to accuse them of being complicit in something like that.

[Weston Saint]

The plane flew for 8 hours which is just about its full endurance.

 

The team investigating the Boeing 777’s disappearance believe no malfunction or fire was capable of causing the aircraft’s unusual flight or the disabling of its communications system before it veered wildly off course on a seven-hour silent flight into the sea. An analysis of the flight’s routing, signalling and communications shows that it was flown “in a rational way”.

 

Investigators believe “this has been a deliberate act by someone on board who had to have had the detailed knowledge to do what was done ... Nothing is emerging that points to motive.”

 

Looking like suicide but still baffling. Who? The Pilot or Co-Pilot and why did one not stop the other!

[Window Cleaner]

The plane flew for 8 hours which is just about its full endurance.

 

The team investigating the Boeing 777’s disappearance believe no malfunction or fire was capable of causing the aircraft’s unusual flight or the disabling of its communications system before it veered wildly off course on a seven-hour silent flight into the sea. An analysis of the flight’s routing, signalling and communications shows that it was flown “in a rational way”.

 

Investigators believe “this has been a deliberate act by someone on board who had to have had the detailed knowledge to do what was done ... Nothing is emerging that points to motive.”

 

Looking like suicide but still baffling. Who? The Pilot or Co-Pilot and why did one not stop the other!

 

 

Could be suicide, could be big bravery from a crew that had been hijacked for a terrorist attempt, knew everyone was going to die anyway so made it so that only those on board were victims and not thousands of people on the ground somewhere.

[buctootim]

Only thing I can think of is a small bomb in the toilet behind the cockpit which took out comms, depressurised cabin and injured flight crew.

[pap]

As you wish, although I think you jest sire.. The evidence is that there is no evidence.

 

I'm still not subscribed to any particular theory, but the little we do know suggests that most systems were inoperable while one remained transmitting. I don't think that you can rule out a nation state being responsible for its disappearance. The link Tim posted basically said the same thing as you did. "No it isn't. It's all made up".

 

The only conclusion that the article allows you to draw is that the eyewitnesses on Kuda Huvadhoo are just plane-imaginin' fantasists. No alternative explanation (another plane, etc) exists, and yet there are locals that insist the government is lying from the few English tweets I can find.

 

If a lack of evidence prevents us from reaching a definite conclusion on the fate of MH370, it also prevents us from ruling much out.

[pap]

The plane flew for 8 hours which is just about its full endurance.

 

The team investigating the Boeing 777’s disappearance believe no malfunction or fire was capable of causing the aircraft’s unusual flight or the disabling of its communications system before it veered wildly off course on a seven-hour silent flight into the sea. An analysis of the flight’s routing, signalling and communications shows that it was flown “in a rational way”.

 

Investigators believe “this has been a deliberate act by someone on board who had to have had the detailed knowledge to do what was done ... Nothing is emerging that points to motive.”

 

Looking like suicide but still baffling. Who? The Pilot or Co-Pilot and why did one not stop the other!

 

Aren't you pre-supposing that pilots had control of the plane? We live in the age of drones, after all.

[trousers]

The plane flew for 8 hours which is just about its full endurance.

 

The team investigating the Boeing 777’s disappearance believe no malfunction or fire was capable of causing the aircraft’s unusual flight or the disabling of its communications system before it veered wildly off course on a seven-hour silent flight into the sea. An analysis of the flight’s routing, signalling and communications shows that it was flown “in a rational way”.

 

Investigators believe “this has been a deliberate act by someone on board who had to have had the detailed knowledge to do what was done ... Nothing is emerging that points to motive.”

 

Looking like suicide but still baffling. Who? The Pilot or Co-Pilot and why did one not stop the other!

 

Could the pilot or co-pilot, if left alone in the cockpit for a few minutes, induce a controlled decompression in the cabin to make everyone unconscious, and thus leave the plane flying on auto for 8 hours?

[Halo Stickman]

Looking like suicide but still baffling. Who? The Pilot or Co-Pilot and why did one not stop the other!

 

I believe I’m right in saying that since 9/11 flight-deck doors have been fitted with impregnable locking mechanisms. These can be overridden by the cabin crew if the flight-deck crew are unconscious or incapacitated, but this overriding system can be negated from within the flight-deck. In other words, if someone on the flight-deck wants to bar entry, then there’s no way of gaining access to the flight-deck from the cabin. Hopefully, one of our aviation experts can confirm or deny this.

 

Perhaps one of the pilots left the flight-deck for some reason and the other pilot took the opportunity to lock him out?

Edited 25 March, 2014 by Halo Stickman

[Whitey Grandad]

I believe I’m right in saying that since 9/11 flight-deck doors have been fitted with impregnable locking mechanisms. These can be overridden by the cabin crew if the flight-deck crew are unconscious or incapacitated, but this overriding system can be negated from within the flight-deck. In other words, if someone on the flight-deck wants to bar entry, then there’s no way of gaining access to the flight-deck from the cabin. Hopefully, one of our aviation experts can confirm or deny this.

 

Perhaps one of the pilots left the flight-deck for some reason and the other pilot took the opportunity to lock him out?

 

Isn't there supposed to be an axe locked away somewhere so that the cabin crew can hack their way in? Obviously it's in a secret location

[Simples]

Isn't there supposed to be an axe locked away somewhere so that the cabin crew can hack their way in? Obviously it's in a secret location

 

There are, but they are designed to exit the aircraft in an accident, not to get into the cockpit door thankfully. The number depends on the number of seats fitted.

[Halo Stickman]

Isn't there supposed to be an axe locked away somewhere so that the cabin crew can hack their way in? Obviously it's in a secret location

 

If the lone-rogue-pilot-locked-inside-the-flight-deck scenario does turn out to be what actually happened then the aviation industry will be forced to adopt measures to prevent it ever happening again. Although, I would imagine it’s very difficult to install procedures for every possible contingency without compromising existing security measures.

[derry]

Isn't there supposed to be an axe locked away somewhere so that the cabin crew can hack their way in? Obviously it's in a secret location

 

In the flight deck is standard Boeing, there may be another one down the back. Activating the SARBE emergency beacon was an option if fitted. Ours were in overhead bins front/back.

[Minty]

If the lone-rogue-pilot-locked-inside-the-flight-deck scenario does turn out to be what actually happened then the aviation industry will be forced to adopt measures to prevent it ever happening again. Although, I would imagine it’s very difficult to install procedures for every possible contingency without compromising existing security measures.

 

Indeed. And think of the wider implications that kind of thinking would have. Through training and certification we put trust in pilots, doctors, air traffic controllers, engineers, the military, you name it... any scenario where a single person has influence over tens, hundreds maybe thousands of others *could* be a situation in which that 'lone rogue individual' has power over others' lives.

 

We can't live in a world like that. We don't live in a world like that. We do need to continually improve our studies into and understanding of mental health and the reasons why people do things, but without inherent trust, what would the world end up like?

[Halo Stickman]

Indeed. And think of the wider implications that kind of thinking would have. Through training and certification we put trust in pilots, doctors, air traffic controllers, engineers, the military, you name it... any scenario where a single person has influence over tens, hundreds maybe thousands of others *could* be a situation in which that 'lone rogue individual' has power over others' lives.

 

We can't live in a world like that. We don't live in a world like that. We do need to continually improve our studies into and understanding of mental health and the reasons why people do things, but without inherent trust, what would the world end up like?

 

Yes, at this point, it might be worth reflecting on a 1966 summer’s day in Texas, when ex-marine sniper Charles Whitman stabbed to death his wife and mother, climbed to the top of a water tower on a university campus, and shot dead a further 14 people, wounding 32. An even worse carnage was only prevented by the brave actions of two state policemen and a civilian who managed to scale the tower, break down Whitman’s barricade, and shoot him dead.

 

Whitman left letters – effectively suicide notes – pleading with the authorities to conduct a post-mortem in order to establish what had compelled him to commit this terrible atrocity. The post-mortem revealed a previously undiagnosed brain tumour.

 

The medical authorities have long argued over to what extent this tumour contributed to Whitman’s behaviour that day. But if we accept the views of those who say it did play a role, then it leads to any interesting question: how responsible was Whitman for his actions?

 

As you say, Minty, no one can ever legislate for such terrible incidents; nor should they, thankfully, they are exceedingly rare.

[pap]

As you say, Minty, no one can ever legislate for such terrible incidents; nor should they, thankfully, they are exceedingly rare.

 

Resolution is going to be incredibly important, not just for the families of the missing, but also to ensure that we don't create any kneejerk legislation based on unresolved events. Without knowing precisely what the problem was, confidence will be lost in the industry and we may see draconian, but ultimately needless legislation created from the uncertainty.

 

Right off the top of my head, you could argue that we need to have some form of international ID ( the two Iranians on-board under different documentation ), more checks on pilots (suicide theory), more systems on planes (failure of telemetry).

[Halo Stickman]

Resolution is going to be incredibly important, not just for the families of the missing, but also to ensure that we don't create any kneejerk legislation based on unresolved events. Without knowing precisely what the problem was, confidence will be lost in the industry and we may see draconian, but ultimately needless legislation created from the uncertainty.

 

Right off the top of my head, you could argue that we need to have some form of international ID ( the two Iranians on-board under different documentation ), more checks on pilots (suicide theory), more systems on planes (failure of telemetry).

 

Agree with that, pap.

 

Let’s hope the black-box can be found and that it will reveal the explanation for this tragedy.

[buctootim]

Let’s hope the black-box can be found and that it will reveal the explanation for this tragedy.

 

The voice recorder, which is arguably the most important of the two in this case only records for two hours. Since the flight lasted for at least seven hours all the recordings of the critical phase of the flight, the first five hours, will have been lost. Flight reporting technology is woefully out of date on many dimensions.

[Whitey Grandad]

Agree with that, pap.

 

Let’s hope the black-box can be found and that it will reveal the explanation for this tragedy.

 

Unless it's found in the next few weeks I doubt either it or the aircraft ever will be.

[Halo Stickman]

The voice recorder, which is arguably the most important of the two in this case only records for two hours. Since the flight lasted for at least seven hours all the recordings of the critical phase of the flight, the first five hours, will have been lost. Flight reporting technology is woefully out of date on many dimensions.

 

Good point, Tim, but, hopefully, the voice recorder might still reveal whether or not those on the flight deck were still conscious and acting rationally.

[hutch]

I reckon psychometric profiling for all passengers and crew is the way forward.

 

They could do it while we're waiting for the results of the tests on our shoes, belts, watches, glasses, wallets, toothpaste........

[buctootim]

I reckon psychometric profiling for all passengers and crew is the way forward.

 

They could do it while we're waiting for the results of the tests on our shoes, belts, watches, glasses, wallets, toothpaste........

 

Ive pretty much stopped flying in Europe because of the hassle - and ended up having some great holidays in places I wouldn't have normally gone to because of it.

[Halo Stickman]

I reckon psychometric profiling for all passengers and crew is the way forward.

 

They could do it while we're waiting for the results of the tests on our shoes, belts, watches, glasses, wallets, toothpaste........

 

Christ, hutch, it would take longer than that to psychometrically profile most of us on here – the beeper would be red hot and going off like a siren!

[pap]

Been chatting with an islander from Kuda Huvadhoo.

 

According to him, no-one is too comfy with the idea of saying that it was definitely MH370 they saw, but was reported to be much bigger than the seaplanes they routinely see over the island.

[melmacian_saint]

Diego Garcia has population. Surely if a plane landed there a photo would've been leaked?

[Window Cleaner]

Diego Garcia has population. Surely if a plane landed there a photo would've been leaked?

 

 

planes land there all of the time, it's above all a US Navy Base, from time to time they do charter flights from the US to change the personnel and bring supplies. Don't know the frequency nowadays though, probably once or twice a week. Don't know why Pap is keeping on about this really.

[pap]

Diego Garcia has population. Surely if a plane landed there a photo would've been leaked?

 

The indigenous people were turfed off between 1968 and 1973.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depopulation_of_Diego_Garcia

 

Not sure what the present day population is comprised of.

[buctootim]

The indigenous people were turfed off between 1968 and 1973.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depopulation_of_Diego_Garcia

 

Not sure what the present day population is comprised of.

 

Diego Garcia will be routinely photographed and monitored by the Chinese. The idea that the Americans captured a civilian airliner and flew it to Diego Garcia is nuts in itself, without even factoring in the Chinese reaction.

[Window Cleaner]

The indigenous people were turfed off between 1968 and 1973.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depopulation_of_Diego_Garcia

 

Not sure what the present day population is comprised of.

 

Well there's something you can construct a nutjob theory from then, the Chagossians hijacked it and tried to fly it to their spiritual home. It would have ended up in the drink for sure.

[pap]

Diego Garcia will be routinely photographed and monitored by the Chinese. The idea that the Americans captured a civilian airliner and flew it to Diego Garcia is nuts in itself, without even factoring in the Chinese reaction.

 

It's probably putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5, and you're right, it is nuts. May I gently remind sir that we live in a f**king crazy world? Just a few months ago, the US was petitioning to get involved in Syria to assist our "al Qaeda allies". That's nuts. The crisis in Ukraine is nuts. The US and UK are implicitly backing far right parties in the Ukraine, which should be utterly f**king hat-stand to supposedly moderate democracies, yet we're doing it anyway.

 

My point is that insanity doesn't seem to be any bar to implementation.

 

I have no idea of the Chinese's monitoring capabilities over Diego Garcia, or how frequent they are. Logic would suggest that you are correct, but the reality is that neither of us know jack sh!t apart from what we're assuming. Given the unfolding crisis at the time, those resources may have been directed elsewhere.

 

I completely agree that the Chinese would react very badly if they found out another nation state was complicit in the disappearance of MH370, but at the same time, this is a plane that disappeared off the radar and has eluded the world ever since. Some kind of resolution is required for a reaction, or in other words, it only matters if the prospective perpetrator is caught.

 

Just speculating here.

[buctootim]

1. The Ukraine government is a national emergency coalition. Yes there are a few ultra nationalists in it but the very large majority are mainstream parties. Their prime minister is Jewish.

2. Similarly the opposition to Assad consists of many disparate groups. If the EDL and Socialist workers both wanted to reduce car tax does that make them allies?

3. Why would the US risk world outrage and condemnation, with the active support of Britain, to abduct and presumably kills 250 people? For two tonnes of mangos and some laptop batteries?

[pap]

Why would the US risk world outrage and condemnation, with the active support of Britain, to abduct and presumably kills 250 people? For two tonnes of mangos and some laptop batteries?

 

It's a good question. One explanation is that there was something of high value on the plane that isn't currently documented.

 

It's already been suggested that the plane could be re-purposed as a missile, with the Israelis on high alert. Again, just speculation, but if that were to occur and Tehran was implicated, it not only opens the door for more Middle Eastern adventures, but it would also drive a wedge between Iran and one of its patrons.

Edited 25 March, 2014 by pap