Turkish Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 The sole reason Man united dominated English football for the last twenty year was not because they had the greatest manager in history and players like Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Van Nistelroy, Stam, schmichel etc it was because they wore red shirts.
Nolan Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 It has been proven that if two athletes or teams were of exactly the same ability, then the one wearing red would have a higher probability of winning. This has been proven again and again in multiple studies. Obviously if two teams or athletes of widely different abilities were against each other, the 'red effect' would not be enough to counter quality. Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk
CB Fry Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 Christ almighty small fry, even by your standards, this is a whopper. Scientists look for independent effects. The claim is not that teams in red win; rather it is that teams in red are more likely to win after controlling for everything else that might affect success i.e. a team's ability among other explanatory factors. That's what these experiments try to do -and with large samples. Simply trotting off teams of wildly differing abilities that have won a league and not worn not in red is Fry-like logic. My local Sunday league side wears red - it hasn't won the World Cup ergo the theory is wrong and you're right. Nice one. How do you manage to do your shoelaces. Where is this scientific study you speak of? Must have a large sample and everything because someone as clever as you has swallowed it.
Berudenot2 Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 The sole reason Man united dominated English football for the last twenty year was not because they had the greatest manager in history and players like Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Van Nistelroy, Stam, schmichel etc it was because they wore red shirts. As is also evidenced in the performances of Boro & Charlton over the last 20+ years.
Turkish Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 It has been proven that if two athletes or teams were of exactly the same ability, then the one wearing red would have a higher probability of winning. This has been proven again and again in multiple studies. Obviously if two teams or athletes of widely different abilities were against each other, the 'red effect' would not be enough to counter quality. Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk Name the two athletes or teams who were EXACTLY of the same ability, one in red, one in none red, where the one in red won.
Turkish Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 Yet four of the top 6 this season, including the champions wore non red kits. How can this be when it's been proven wearing red is a guarantee of success?
CB Fry Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 Name the two athletes or teams who were EXACTLY of the same ability, one in red, one in none red, where the one in red won. Hang on, Dr Strawlock has the evidence, sourced from a large sample. He's a scientist, you know. Coming right up.
Nolan Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 Yet four of the top 6 this season, including the champions wore non red kits. How can this be when it's been proven wearing red is a guarantee of success? Feel free to actually read the link I posted in post #791 http://m.livescience.com/276-red-outfits-give-athletes-advantage.html
Sour Mash Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 Feel free to actually read the link I posted in post #791 http://m.livescience.com/276-red-outfits-give-athletes-advantage.html Please say you're kidding? Are you suggesting that article is scientific proof of anything?
Turkish Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 Feel free to actually read the link I posted in post #791 http://m.livescience.com/276-red-outfits-give-athletes-advantage.html Sorry. I'm pretty sure you said it had been proven. So when did this series of match ups take place? When did the teams or athletes with exactly the same ability, preparation, tactics, training, management, diet, etc take place?
Turkish Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 I'm pretty sure something happened in 1976 when a team not wearing red beat a team wearing red who were a better side than them. Surely scientists can prove that never happened.
Turkish Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 Hang on, Dr Strawlock has the evidence, sourced from a large sample. He's a scientist, you know. Coming right up. FFS 'small fry' don't you know listing the numerous occasions where this hasn't happened is far less credible than something about animalistic tendencies from centuries ago in a completely made up, hypothetical situation which will be impossible to ever occur that a scientist wrote once.
Nolan Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 Feel free to print out and read the actual study done at an actual university by actual scientists. (pdf file) http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCsQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.dur.ac.uk%2Fr.a.hill%2FAttrill_et_al_2008.pdf&ei=4fZ-U7DvFYuBPY2QgZgM&usg=AFQjCNFlawcRSPBjU35P6Ebftbk_0klaWA&sig2=n9Wdv5zC_t81s0u1d7LRYQ&bvm=bv.67720277,d.ZWU Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk
CB Fry Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 FFS 'small fry' don't you know listing the numerous occasions where this hasn't happened is far less credible than something about animalistic tendencies from centuries ago in a completely made up, hypothetical situation which will be impossible to ever occur that a scientist wrote once. Actually what swung it for me was the strength of all that large sample sourced scientific evidence making all those football clubs all over the world change their kits to red. In terms of how evidence based science changed behaviour around the world, the red kit thing is up there with smoking causes lung cancer.
saint si Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 My anecdotal evidence trumps your research! Best take it up with those buffoons at the University of Durham. Abstract: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v435/n7040/abs/435293a.html Full paper: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v435/n7040/pdf/435293a.pdf
benjii Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 It has been proven that wearing red can confer psychological benefits ( viz my earlier post about martial arts scoring, which is referenced in the first line of the article linked above). Clearly that doesn't mean you can bung eleven spastics in red shirts and expect them to do a job on Real Madrid. It might, however, mean that the psychological effect of red has an impact at times which is beneficial. It's really not that hard to understand ( although no surprise that the usual suspects seem to struggle).
Turkish Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 Feel free to print out and read the actual study done at an actual university by actual scientists. (pdf file) http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCsQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.dur.ac.uk%2Fr.a.hill%2FAttrill_et_al_2008.pdf&ei=4fZ-U7DvFYuBPY2QgZgM&usg=AFQjCNFlawcRSPBjU35P6Ebftbk_0klaWA&sig2=n9Wdv5zC_t81s0u1d7LRYQ&bvm=bv.67720277,d.ZWU Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk Id be interested to read about all those match ups. When did they happen? Does it go into detail about the cloning of these athletes and teams and their mangers and coaches so they could be 100% certain their ability was EXACTLY the same?
SO16_Saint Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 any chance that all the bickering and point scoring can be put to one side, if just for a second, so this thread can get back on topic?
Sour Mash Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 any chance that all the bickering and point scoring can be put to one side, if just for a second, so this thread can get back on topic? What topic?
Block34 Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 Guys, any of you been on the Stadium tour? In the players tunnel, the wall against which our lads stand prior to the start is painted red, the away team's is white (if I remember correctly) - the guide said this was purely psychological in intent in that that it was meant to subliminally weaken the opposition. Whether this works or not I have no idea, however, SFC believe it does and the link between this and "red shirts win" is not a huge leap.
SO16_Saint Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 Not wanting to fuel the fire further, but: This research followed from a wildly publicized study in 2005 evaluating a somewhat similar process in humans. The researchers followed contestants in combative sports, including boxing, tae kwon do, and two types of wrestling, in the 2004 Olympics. These contestants were randomly assigned to either wear red or blue uniforms during the games. The researchers found that contestants wearing red were significantly more likely to win their matches. This was especially the case when the two competitors were relatively equal in ability (red gave them an extra nudge). Similar results were found with teams assigned to wear red in an international soccer tournament in 2005. The researchers argued these results are due to an evolutionary history – in which red coloration was related to testosterone levels and by extension dominance. In this way, it became a cue regarding which male would win a competition – a cue still used by humans today. How exactly this process operates, however, is still unclear. Is the competitor wearing red more confident or their opponent more intimidated? Other researchers have argued that the effect has to do with the referees’ biases. For example, referees were found to give more points to tae kwon do competitors wearing red than to those wearing blue, even when the performances were identical. Whatever the reason, the effect is there, and should be considered in high stakes competitive sports. http://psych-your-mind.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/power-of-red.html and: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4559071.stm
CB Fry Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 Feel free to print out and read the actual study done at an actual university by actual scientists. (pdf file) http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCsQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.dur.ac.uk%2Fr.a.hill%2FAttrill_et_al_2008.pdf&ei=4fZ-U7DvFYuBPY2QgZgM&usg=AFQjCNFlawcRSPBjU35P6Ebftbk_0klaWA&sig2=n9Wdv5zC_t81s0u1d7LRYQ&bvm=bv.67720277,d.ZWU Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk This is, conveniently, English football, not the four top divisions of Europe as someone claimed. Would you believe it, Liverpool, Arsenal and Man United at the top of their little table. But Real Madrid and Barcelona wouldn't be top of a similar study in Spain? And who would be at the top in Scotland? For a study based on human psychological reactions to colours in sport the idea that the thesis would collapse the minute one gets on a easyjet to Barcelona kind of weakens the theory. And, in that 2008 study Saints are classified as "red" so the stripes/non stripes thing is irrelevant, as someone claimed further up the thread that it was "all red". The study defines striped teams alongside their plain brothers. But hey, that's science for you.
CB Fry Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 It's been proven that teams who wear all red strips are more successful. Across the top three or four leagues, I believe, including England. Quoted.
CB Fry Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 It has been proven that wearing red can confer psychological benefits ( viz my earlier post about martial arts scoring, which is referenced in the first line of the article linked above). Clearly that doesn't mean you can bung eleven spastics in red shirts and expect them to do a job on Real Madrid. It might, however, mean that the psychological effect of red has an impact at times which is beneficial. It's really not that hard to understand ( although no surprise that the usual suspects seem to struggle). That is pretty easy to understand but the impact is so utterly marginal to be non existent in an global team sport played out over 9 months of the calender year, by teams with huge variances in resources. And so utterly marginal that no major clubs in my memory have switched to plain red and seen a direct correlation to success. Leeds switched to white and did okay, though. It's hardly up there with the advances in diet, nutrition, conditioning and our Clive's old eye - gym now is it? The only people struggling are the parade of divs that think our ten-a-penny template red kit is some holy grail of competitive advantage. It aint. All the martial arts research on the planet isn't going to change that.
alpine_saint Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 LOL CB Fry is really in his element at the moment. A split fan base, uncertainty, concern, fear, and he is dashing in an out of converstations, indulging in a massive sneering b*tch fest wherever he sees a soft underbelly. And people complain about the likes of me, Barry, and Glasgow.............
Turkish Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 LOL CB Fry is really in his element at the moment. A split fan base, uncertainty, concern, fear, and he is dashing in an out of converstations, indulging in a massive sneering b*tch fest wherever he sees a soft underbelly. And people complain about the likes of me, Barry, and Glasgow............. This is important to you. Stripes have a slimming effect, tubby.
shurlock Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 (edited) That is pretty easy to understand but the impact is so utterly marginal to be non existent in an global team sport played out over 9 months of the calender year, by teams with huge variances in resources. And so utterly marginal that no major clubs in my memory have switched to plain red and seen a direct correlation to success. Leeds switched to white and did okay, though. It's hardly up there with the advances in diet, nutrition, conditioning and our Clive's old eye - gym now is it? The only people struggling are the parade of divs that think our ten-a-penny template red kit is some holy grail of competitive advantage. It aint. All the martial arts research on the planet isn't going to change that. As someone no longer with us used to say, you're doing an admirable impression of an Italian tank. So it might make a tmarginal impact - imposing little or no additional cost. Disgruntled pony fiddlers like yourself don't really count. I couldn't give two f**ks what colour we play in. Red and white stripes will do fine. But I'm more interested in your suggestion that there are droves on here who think it's the holy grail of competitive advantage. Do tell me who they are...please do. Or I'll take it you're wrong yet again. Edited 23 May, 2014 by shurlock
Block34 Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 That is pretty easy to understand but the impact is so utterly marginal to be non existent ....... Absolutely, it is marginal, it may or may not work - but it might just have an effect so why not use it if it 'costs' nothing? .....The only people struggling are the parade of divs that think our ten-a-penny template red kit is some holy grail of competitive advantage. It aint. ....agreed, it is no Holy Grail and the effect may well be marginal - but it might just have an effect so why not use it if it 'costs' nothing? Plus I think this year's strip looks rather good anyway. Couldn't really see us playing in blue, green, yellow or anything other than red, myself. Wouldn't stop me supporting SFC if we did though.
Colinjb Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 ....agreed, it is no Holy Grail and the effect may well be marginal - but it might just have an effect so why not use it if it 'costs' nothing? How much did it cost in lost merchandise sales? That all sizes of the home kit went to discounted sale, under the recent powers that be that is unprecedented.
Sour Mash Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 Absolutely, it is marginal, it may or may not work - but it might just have an effect so why not use it if it 'costs' nothing? ....agreed, it is no Holy Grail and the effect may well be marginal - but it might just have an effect so why not use it if it 'costs' nothing? Plus I think this year's strip looks rather good anyway. Couldn't really see us playing in blue, green, yellow or anything other than red, myself. Wouldn't stop me supporting SFC if we did though. Why don't every club use it then? It's not marginal, there is no proof that it adds any benefit. I don't beleive that anyone actually thinks last season's kit looks good, so I won't be taking that point seriously.
shurlock Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 (edited) How much did it cost in lost merchandise sales? That all sizes of the home kit went to discounted sale, under the recent powers that be that is unprecedented. I'd suggest there are many operational, marketing and management things responsible for that - after all, it didn't stop the first red kit flying off the shelves. Again there might have been lots of things responsible for that too. Right as I told myself never to post on a kits thread, the retarded younger brother of the PTS thread where the mongboards best and brightest come to fantasise about the width of stripes and do charming little mock ups, I'll bow out here. Edited 23 May, 2014 by shurlock
farawaysaint Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 (edited) 5 years in the future with City and Chelsea I'd imagine there'd be a statistically significant correlation between blue and success in the pl. Correlation does not necessarily mean causation. Edited 23 May, 2014 by farawaysaint
Block34 Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 (edited) Why don't every club use it then? It's not marginal, there is no proof that it adds any benefit. I don't beleive that anyone actually thinks last season's kit looks good, so I won't be taking that point seriously. a) there is no proof it doesn't b) colour red is seen as 'aggressive' which may (or may not) have an effect on a competitor c) every team using it? They may do where the away team are, just like they use other effects such as shared not single showers in the away dressing rooms, we just don't see it in the kit d) your opinion as to my opinion of the kit is worth to me exactly what I paid for it. e) .... and it's 'doesn't' not 'don't' and 'believe' not 'beleive' ..and like shurlock, I'm off....... Edited 23 May, 2014 by Block34
The Kraken Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 If this thread is anything to go by so far I'm looking forward to how this progresses when the club unveils the actual kit. If it's a third in a row utter pile of sh*te, things could get a bit tasty.
Colinjb Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 If this thread is anything to go by so far I'm looking forward to how this progresses when the club unveils the actual kit. If it's a third in a row utter pile of sh*te, things could get a bit tasty. The quotes that RK is aware of a desire to return to stripes leave me feeling a bit more ambivalent, change should be afoot for 15/16 at least.
The Kraken Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 The quotes that RK is aware of a desire to return to stripes leave me feeling a bit more ambivalent, change should be afoot for 15/16 at least. Yeah I get the feeling it's going to be another Cortese inspired all red affair. If I'm honest I'm glad we're away from Adidas, their kits in the past few years have been utterly bland. Saying that they're infinitely better than the turgid tripe that Sondico churn out for our pals down the M27.
Sour Mash Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 a) there is no proof it doesn't b) colour red is seen as 'aggressive' which may (or may not) have an effect on a competitor c) every team using it? They may do where the away team are, just like they use other effects such as shared not single showers in the away dressing rooms, we just don't see it in the kit d) your opinion as to my opinion of the kit is worth to me exactly what I paid for it. e) .... and it's 'doesn't' not 'don't' and 'believe' not 'beleive' ..and like shurlock, I'm off....... Well that's it then
Turkish Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 So still no proof that when everything else is exactly the same the team/competitor in red wins, despite scientists proving this.
Colinjb Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 So still no proof that when everything else is exactly the same the team/competitor in red wins, despite scientists proving this. The only 'proof' is a marginal observed effect on judges/referees, not the competitors.
dubai_phil Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 More confused that ever. What should I have for my pre dinner drink now? Red Wine? Red Bull? Red Stripe? I guess Heineken is now forbidden
Window Cleaner Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 So still no proof that when everything else is exactly the same the team/competitor in red wins, despite scientists proving this. Scientists can prove anything you like provided it gets them a grant for further research. Everything is true when you tend to zero and infinity, squares become circles, parallel lines cross and spheres become tetahedra:rolleyes:.
Turkish Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 If you think there is proof, you do not understand research. Our geniuses told us it was proven, so there must be proof.
Block34 Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 So, one more time... have you been on the St Mary's tour? No? You've not listened to the Guide explaining how the colour red is used in the tunnel to 'intimidate' the opposition then? No? So SFC have wasted their time and may as well have painted the walls a delicate shade of magnolia? In that case SFC must, by your standards, be utterly foolish to have even considered this, let alone put it into practice! Nice to see you all, once again, putting you club down - what a lovely bunch you really are!
The Kraken Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 The lack of a collar and the badge being on the sash makes it look inferior to the Saints work of art. That really was a lovely kit.
latter day saint Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 ^^ that looks strangely familiar & also rather good
Colinjb Posted 23 May, 2014 Posted 23 May, 2014 The lack of a collar and the badge being on the sash makes it look inferior to the Saints work of art. That really was a lovely kit. Strangly, for those reasons you mention I actually prefer the Peru one. Both are fine shirts in their own right mind.
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