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The true housing benefit scroungers

pap

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Sour Mash

Sour Mash

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I grew up in Ruislip, Middlesex and it isn't concreted over. The amount of green there when you consider you are but 30/40 mins from Central on the tube is quite staggering.

 

They've got a lido and everything :)

What about Hounslow, Wembley, Wealdstone etc, concreted over pretty much and not an English person to be seen.
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suewhistle

suewhistle

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Let me dive in, it'll be the Pinot Noir speaking...

 

As somebody said above, it's a supply side problem, as much as anything. Now, those of you who say the government can't do much: well, they already are. Planning controls (I agree with them), the fact that BTL investors can offset their costs (interest mainly) against tax, lack of a land/property tax so that people can hoard it and there is no cost to them to do so. I can't remember the latest figures but the ownership of land is so highly concentrated in the UK, and this perpetuates wealth, whether people work or not. The lack of any controls on foreign fugitive (and "black") money, and the lack of any tax on such foreign domiciled people who leave their properties unoccupied, ready for the next revolution in their own countries. Next surge of investment from the Ukraine, perhaps?

 

I've returned to the UK after living abroad, back to the same house, and as a result my views are coloured by that. Does everybody need/want/deserve (!) a garden. If you are renting a house should you be repairing motorbikes and dropping piston-heads on the tiles in the kitchen and using the worktop as a workbench? [Chr**t, the least of it!] Doesn't renting a house come with responsibilities? Should the b****rd really be breeding.. OK, you get the picture..:-)

 

Bitter jokes aside, my continental experience showed me that flats can be a perfectly acceptable mode of living, although they have to be designed a bit better than the average British one, so: more than one aspect, decent sound insulation, decent balconies, parking under the building, storage rooms in the cellars. The latter are so, so useful: winter/summer tyres, wine, tools, bicycles, out of season items all tucked away.

 

So there are a whole host of things that can be done and changed, and this idea that government is powerless is one for those that think being shat upon is normal and acceptable. Mind you, we've experienced it for years, it's just that the current lot are more obtuse, complacent, doctrinaire, unempathic, self-interested and plain stupid than the previous 20 year's worth..

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Hockey_saint

Hockey_saint

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I blame BBC's homes under the hammer for these problems....full of who-rey-henry's making money from houses which were previously built so the poor had somewhere to live (and not for them to exploit them with disgraceful rents)...also most are owned by individual families who have monopolies in certain areas (not to sound racist...although I find it interesting this issue always comes down to that) for example in Southampton, it's usually dominated by South Asians.

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Barry Sanchez

Barry Sanchez

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The real cost of building a home is land, time, materials and labour.

 

Any monetary figure you see is always going to be some kind of fiction, because it's all based on the same fiction - the level of credit created by the banks to finance the property market. So let's examine the labour component of building a home. You'll need to pay x people for y day's work, at z an hour. I'm not really interested in x and y; there's a saying the Irish have - "it is what it is". Absent some revolutionary change in the way we build houses or the sort of houses we build, we're stuck with it. The rate of pay is something I'm interested in, because I know the only reason I'm paying the z rate is because I'm covering someone else's housing expenses, which are set too high in the first place.

 

Further, many of the items on the bill of materials are going to be locally sourced. You're paying bank tax there too. Anyone involved in the production of those materials will probably also have expensive housing costs to cover. Of course, much will come from overseas, which creates its own problems (less jobs, more people on housing benefit in first place).

 

Finally, you need to look at the cost of land, which could also come down. The idea that Britain is concreted over is a fallacy. There are just a lot of people holding onto a lot of land and making it more expensive for anyone else to procure.

 

Housing shouldn't be a market, and shouldn't be a business. The only people that benefit from its current state are banks and landlords.

 

 

Pap if you want to see overpriced housing in Liverpool for land/cost look no further than the New Heys development in Allerton.

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buctootim

buctootim

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Mr Mash they conveniently fail to see the difference between a retiree with money living abroad and an economic migrant.

 

No, that would be you. Elderly people are expensive in terms of healthcare and social services. The majority of Brits in Spain have gone there for the warmer weather, lower heating bills and cheaper housing - Spain seems them as economic migrants.

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pap

pap

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I fail to see what the problem is here? A private landlord will try to make the most out of property they have been given, it's their prerogative. With a shortage of properties the Government has to house people somewhere? I don't know what world people think we live in sometimes.

 

A world where the richest MP moans about people getting "something for nothing" despite trousering a sh!tload of taxpayer cash through the prism of the very people he derides.

 

Should have gone to SpecSavers, Jeff.

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buctootim

buctootim

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Ah you're right, so the only significant places UK citizens have emigrated to in numbers are the retirement enclaves of Spain, Ireland and France.

 

According to the BBC 2.6 million Brits live in the US, Canada and Australia, more than in Europe. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/brits_abroad/html/n_america.stm Thats almost 5million Brits in North America and the EU, let alone the rest of the world. Another 220,000 in South Africa and 200,000 in NZ. There are probably 6million Brits living abroad in total, far more than foreigners living in Britain.

Edited by buctootim
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Barry Sanchez

Barry Sanchez

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No, that would be you. Elderly people are expensive in terms of healthcare and social services. The majority of Brits in Spain have gone there for the warmer weather, lower heating bills and cheaper housing - Spain seems them as economic migrants.

 

That has been paid in the UK by their National Health premiums, Spain gets paid for them, before the freedom of movement there were lots of pensioners investing in Spain, areas rely on their money now, how can someone be an economic migrant if they dont work and have retired?

It works both ways as well lets not forget.

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Barry Sanchez

Barry Sanchez

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According to the BBC 2.6 million Brits live in the US, Canada and Australia, more than in Europe. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/brits_abroad/html/n_america.stm

 

They would have entered the US, Canada and Australia under a skillied migration program so of course the Countries want them, like the UK would not want skilled workers? Of course it would but this is not the issue and has no relevance to Europe or the UK though does it?

Edited by Barry Sanchez
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Sour Mash

Sour Mash

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According to the BBC 2.6 million Brits live in the US, Canada and Australia, more than in Europe. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/brits_abroad/html/n_america.stm Thats almost 5million Brits in North America and the EU, let alone the rest of the world. Another 220,000 in South Africa and 200,000 in NZ. There are probably 6million Brits living abroad in total, far more than foreigners living in Britain.
Check net-migration figures in the UK.
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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

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According to the BBC 2.6 million Brits live in the US, Canada and Australia, more than in Europe. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/brits_abroad/html/n_america.stm Thats almost 5million Brits in North America and the EU, let alone the rest of the world. Another 220,000 in South Africa and 200,000 in NZ. There are probably 6million Brits living abroad in total, far more than foreigners living in Britain.

 

Excuse me?

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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

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I've got no problem with someone renting one house out if circumstances take them elsewhere. People who farm benefit claimants can f**k right off.

 

So you'd prefer to see those people on the streets then?

 

I am looking at changing the rental strategy on my properties. Currently I rent out to professionals, but they are unreliable in paying. I am looking at renting out a couple of my properties to the council, because even though I will earn less per month, the guarantee of payment makes it worthwhile. The only thing holding me back is that I have warned about how council tenants can look after/leave properties, with damage far exceeding the paltry deposit amounts put down by the government.

 

Oh, and by the way, I pay a ton of tax because of this.

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pap

pap

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So you'd prefer to see those people on the streets then?

 

I am looking at changing the rental strategy on my properties. Currently I rent out to professionals, but they are unreliable in paying. I am looking at renting out a couple of my properties to the council, because even though I will earn less per month, the guarantee of payment makes it worthwhile. The only thing holding me back is that I have warned about how council tenants can look after/leave properties, with damage far exceeding the paltry deposit amounts put down by the government.

 

Oh, and by the way, I pay a ton of tax because of this.

 

No, I'd prefer to see them in decent social accommodation until they can afford money for a home.

 

I absolutely don't want them being a cash cow for people like you, rewarded for signing a couple of mortgage applications and a gas service contract.

 

Any tax accrued from housing benefit tenants isn't real tax. It's giving a little bit of money back to those who gave you it in the first place.

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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

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No, I'd prefer to see them in decent social accommodation until they can afford money for a home.

 

I absolutely don't want them being a cash cow for people like you, rewarded for signing a couple of mortgage applications and a gas service contract.

 

Any tax accrued from housing benefit tenants isn't real tax. It's giving a little bit of money back to those who gave you it in the first place.

 

But that's not a realistic strategy? What you want is a fantasy that doesn't exist, anywhere on earth.

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pap

pap

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So who's getting the handouts here? The landlords have to buy and maintain the place but the tenants are getting it for free?

 

Please. Deposit, buy-to-let mortgage application, insurance, gas service contract and letting agent. Rinse and repeat.

 

That sound like effort to you?

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pap

pap

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You could say that about anyone who works for or takes money from the public sector though Pap.

 

Private landlords aren't exactly working, Tokes. They're not the beleaguered social worker with 20 insoluble cases on her desk.

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Barry Sanchez

Barry Sanchez

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So you'd prefer to see those people on the streets then?

 

I am looking at changing the rental strategy on my properties. Currently I rent out to professionals, but they are unreliable in paying. I am looking at renting out a couple of my properties to the council, because even though I will earn less per month, the guarantee of payment makes it worthwhile. The only thing holding me back is that I have warned about how council tenants can look after/leave properties, with damage far exceeding the paltry deposit amounts put down by the government.

 

Oh, and by the way, I pay a ton of tax because of this.

 

 

Is it morally right thought to benefit from a housing shortage?

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Tokyo-Saint

Tokyo-Saint

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Private landlords aren't exactly working, Tokes. They're not the beleaguered social worker with 20 insoluble cases on her desk.

 

Didn't say they were just that the same defense used by the left on public service workers is now being used by the right and dismissed by the left as a non defense.

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buctootim

buctootim

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The "hit and run" will have to be a new forum term. THis has some interesting reading http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/long-term-international-migration-flows-and-uk

 

Thats a fair summary, I don't have a problem with the numbers. I suspect that what we are saying isnt actually very different. British people have emigrated in consistent numbers for decades - hence 6 million UK passport holders living abroad. The number of foreign passport holders in the UK is less at around 4.8 million - however many of those have arrived in the last 10 years. Its reasonable to see that as too much immigration too quickly. Its also fair to point out that most of the immigrants are from the new EU accession countries and 45% only plan to stay 1 or two years. I think its an issue that will balance out in a couple of years - if there is reduction in non EU immigration.

 

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census/key-statistics-for-local-authorities-in-england-and-wales/rpt-international-migrants.html

Edited by buctootim
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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

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Is it morally right thought to benefit from a housing shortage?

 

Is it right morally to benefit from a lack of anything I suppose? I am not responsible for building social housing. What I would be doing is providing social housing to a government, nay, a succession of governments that haven't built enough social housing/sold off social housing to the tenants.

 

For me, it's about ROI. I don't care if the money comes from a private citizen who works and pays for their accomodation, or from someone that doesn't work/can't afford housing and has to live off the extorniate taxes that I pay based on the fact that I have worked hard and done well in life. Only in this country would we reward failure the way we do.

 

The best way to solve it is to create massive camped villages in disused areas of the country to house thes people, as obviously those that provide housing for them are seen as morally corrupt.

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Sour Mash

Sour Mash

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Thats a fair summary, I don't have a problem with the numbers. I suspect that what we are saying isnt actually very different. British people have emigrated in consistent numbers for decades - hence 6 million UK passport holders living abroad. The number of foreign passport holders in the UK is less at around 4.8 million - however many of those have arrived in the last 10 years. Its reasonable to see that as too much immigration too quickly. Its also fair to point out that most of the immigrants are from the new EU accession countries and 45% only plan to stay 1 or two years. I think its an issue that will balance out in a couple of years - if there is reduction in non EU immigration.

 

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census/key-statistics-for-local-authorities-in-england-and-wales/rpt-international-migrants.html

No, you seem to have missed the point. The UK continues to suffer from significant net-migration, year after year, it doesn't matter what passports people hold or how long they tell a survey the intend to stay - it puts a strain on certain levels of housing in certain parts of the country, hardly a surprise.
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Tokyo-Saint

Tokyo-Saint

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Yeah but on the other hand it helps with the pension crisis and the aging population. The real reason the government has invited all people in from the EU is that they are young, eager to work and will in most go home to retire. This helps at least cushion the problem of our aging population reaching retirement age, get us out the **** for a bit and when they get old, they go back to being someone else's problem.

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