Ukraine

[dubai_phil]

They are sidenotes and distractions, the issue is a Country has been occupied against its will and being chopped up before our very eyes and it shall be a sacrificial lamb to keep the peace, this has happened before.

 

True that.

 

Panama, Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam.

 

The issue is not simply that Ukraine has been "Invaded" it is the fact that a set of circumstances that could have been foreseen caused the opportunity for it to be invaded.

 

I have no idea how the luvvies on the Beeb reported the "Glorious Revolution" but some of the non-politicised press around the world did point out that a number of unlikely bed fellows had come together. The EU at the very least encouraged the "Coup" and may have even helped fund it. The vacuum once it happened was a lesson that SHOULD have been learnt from Iraq - it took too long to get the Emergency Government together and gave Russia the opportunity.

 

History shows that your view of Black & White Opinions is always wrong. History is always grey and full of stupid decisions and arrogant idiots who then run away and hide.

 

Merkel et al are as much to blame for the invasion as Putin is. FFS every other commentator on the planet saw this coming why didn't they?

[Halo Stickman]

Possibly getting increased airplay in certain Ukrainian regions at the moment:

 

Pussy Riot’s Punk Prayer 2012:

 

“S***, s***, holy s***. S***, s***, holy s***.

Virgin Mary, Mother of God, banish

Putin, banish Putin, banish Putin.”

[Tokyo-Saint]

If you hum the tune, I'll sing along.

[Halo Stickman]

If you hum the tune, I'll sing along.

 

Only if you’re happy to run the risk of being imprisoned or horse-whipped.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Always

[alpine_saint]

Excellent post, Chicken With a Banjo. I too think the West has been pushing its luck for far too long with respect to the former Eastern bloc.

 

Former Eastern Bloc

 

 

 

EU

 

 

Yep, all those countries were bullied to join the EU.

[pap]

Yep, all those countries were bullied to join the EU.

 

Nah, not bullied. Courted and planned for, maybe.

 

This is interesting; Victoria Nuland discussing the regime change the US is looking to achieve. This is the leaked call in which she says "f**k the EU".

 

 

Lots of players in this game.

[Barry Sanchez]

I dont like the EU in the main but I also dont like a Country being invaded, what was the reason of the invasion again?

 

I will also add I am totally in favour of Crimea and the East leaving Ukraine and froming their Nation or being absorbed into Russia if done so by democratic means.

Edited 4 March, 2014 by Barry Sanchez

[alpine_saint]

I dont like the EU in the main but I also dont like a Country being invaded, what was the reason of the invasion again?

 

 

The formula excuse tried-and-tested by none other than that Austrian reprobate with the greasy hair and paintbrush moustasche himself, in Sudetenland and parts of Poland. . Local ethnic minority speaking same language as bully nation feels threatened by the yokels.

 

 

I will also add I am totally in favour of Crimea and the East leaving Ukraine and froming their Nation or being absorbed into Russia if done so by democratic means.

 

How easy that response seems to roll of the tongue of those a few thousand miles away. Wonder how you would feel about your homeland, rights and citizenship being traded or given away to protect the comfort of those in other nations ?

[Barry Sanchez]

The formula excuse tried-and-tested by none other than that Austrian reprobate with the greasy hair and paintbrush moustasche himself, in Sudetenland and parts of Poland. . Local ethnic minority speaking same language as bully nation feels threatened by the yokels.

 

 

 

 

How easy that response seems to roll of the tongue of those a few thousand miles away. Wonder how you would feel about your homeland, rights and citizenship being traded or given away to protect the comfort of those in other nations ?

 

I wouldn't like it at all but what could you do if the majority of the area wanted to leave? Jinnah did it to Gandhi over the creation of Pakistan if you recall.

Edited 4 March, 2014 by Barry Sanchez

[Halo Stickman]

One of the few ex-Soviets I’ve ever met was a dishevelled drunk in the back streets of Tallinn, Estonia. He was probably early-thirties, but looked like he’d been living rough for a long, long time. He cut rather a menacing figure as he stumbled towards us; one which caused Mrs Stickman to gather our young sons towards her, whilst cursing me under her breath for once again leading my family off the beaten tourist track.

 

In almost perfect English, he introduced himself as ‘Angel’, and asked for a cigarette. I took out two, and, in the time it took us to smoke them, he told me his life story: conscripted into the army by an ‘occupying’ government he detested, sent to Afghanistan, usual horrors, now left behind by the pace of change in his newly ‘liberated’ country.

 

Before taking leave of our new acquaintance, Angel asked if we could spare him some money. I was a little surprised he didn’t follow us back to ply his trade on the beaten tourist track, but perhaps people like him were discouraged from frequenting the sunnier side of town.

 

This little scenario could have been played out in countless cities around the world. Realpolitiking, governments jostling for influence and power, it’s largely the same the world over. Invariably, it’s people like Angel that end up paying the price.

[trousers]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/freddy-gray/2014/03/ten-handy-phrases-for-bluffing-your-way-through-the-ukraine-crisis/

[buctootim]

One of the few ex-Soviets I’ve ever met was a dishevelled drunk in the back streets of Tallinn, Estonia. He was probably early-thirties, but looked like he’d been living rough for a long, long time. He cut rather a menacing figure as he stumbled towards us; one which caused Mrs Stickman to gather our young sons towards her, whilst cursing me under her breath for once again leading my family off the beaten tourist track.

 

In almost perfect English, he introduced himself as ‘Angel’, and asked for a cigarette. I took out two, and, in the time it took us to smoke them, he told me his life story: conscripted into the army by an ‘occupying’ government he detested, sent to Afghanistan, usual horrors, now left behind by the pace of change in his newly ‘liberated’ country.

 

Before taking leave of our new acquaintance, Angel asked if we could spare him some money. I was a little surprised he didn’t follow us back to ply his trade on the beaten tourist track, but perhaps people like him were discouraged from frequenting the sunnier side of town.

 

This little scenario could have been played out in countless cities around the world. Realpolitiking, governments jostling for influence and power, it’s largely the same the world over. Invariably, it’s people like Angel that end up paying the price.

 

Ive got a friend in Ekaterinburg. She and her mother used to live in a state owned apartment overlooking the lake in the centre of town. When the Soviet Union broke up they were given their apartment for nothing, as were all long term renters. She is a successful manager in a Russian company which imports and sells batteries, torches etc. Her brother is a waster who drinks and runs up debts secured on their apartment which she then has to pay off.

 

There is something broken about many, maybe even most Russian men. Maybe its the enforced conscription for two years in the army - a brutalising time from what Ive heard. .

Edited 4 March, 2014 by buctootim

[Batman]

the armed forces of Ukraine have absolutely zero chance of repelling russian forces. No chance what so ever

 

sorry sight when warships are hanging mattresses over their guard rails to help prevent people taking the ship

 

ukraine/the crimea only hope is that UK/EU and more importantly, the US come calling. whether they should is another thing

one thing is for sure, russia is very much back in the term of serious military capability that is lost in the early 90's. very much so

 

wonder how more aggressive putin will get when the paralympics are over??

[Window Cleaner]

sorry sight when warships are hanging mattresses over their guard rails to help prevent people taking the ship

 

?

 

Why would they do that, what good would that do, training must be pretty poor then.

[Batman]

Why would they do that, what good would that do, training must be pretty poor then.

 

not a great deal

[Window Cleaner]

not a great deal

 

 

conscripts are they ?

[Batman]

conscripts are they ?

 

ukraine. dunno. russians? some are

[Picard]

From before the conflict.

[Barry Sanchez]

In a dream, Vladimir Putin sees the ghost of Joseph Stalin and asks for his advice on running the country. “Round up and shoot the opposition, and then repaint the Kremlin walls blue,” Stalin says. “Why blue?” Putin asks. “Very good,” Stalin replies, “I knew you wouldn’t ask about the first part.”

 

ShareTweet EmailPrint— Russian joke from 2000

 

So true, Putin also sees Stalin as a great Russian leader, there are two points here,

 

1) No he was not.

2) He was Georgian not Russian.

[Whitey Grandad]

In a dream, Vladimir Putin sees the ghost of Joseph Stalin and asks for his advice on running the country. “Round up and shoot the opposition, and then repaint the Kremlin walls blue,” Stalin says. “Why blue?” Putin asks. “Very good,” Stalin replies, “I knew you wouldn’t ask about the first part.”

 

ShareTweet EmailPrint— Russian joke from 2000

 

So true, Putin also sees Stalin as a great Russian leader, there are two points here,

 

1) No he was not.

2) He was Georgian not Russian.

 

OK, if not 'Russian leader' how about 'leader of Russia'?

[Barry Sanchez]

OK, if not 'Russian leader' how about 'leader of Russia'?

 

How about leader of the Soviet Union?

[Whitey Grandad]

How about leader of the Soviet Union?

 

Yes, that too

[pap]

Channel 4 news and the Guardian are both covering a hacked conversation between Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet and Catherine Ashton, an EU foreign policy chief - suggesting that the snipers that fired on the crowd were hired by Maidan leaders.

 

http://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-catherine-ashton-phone-shoot-maidan-bugged-leaked

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet

 

The obligatory Comrade papski RT link:-

http://rt.com/news/estonia-confirm-leaked-tape-970/

 

Estonian Minister has confirmed authenticity of the recording, below.

 

 

The links have shorter versions of the video which cut to the chase.

[pap]

Wow.

 

Crimea's de facto authorities have declared Crimea to be Russian. Ratification awaits, but here's the scary bit.

Temirgaliev said that as of Thursday, the only legal troops on Crimean soil were the Russian army.

"Any troops of a third country will be treated as illegal band formations, with all the consequences that entails," he said.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-crimea-part-of-russia-local-parliament-declares

[Verbal]

Channel 4 news and the Guardian are both covering a hacked conversation between Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet and Catherine Ashton, an EU foreign policy chief - suggesting that the snipers that fired on the crowd were hired by Maidan leaders.

 

http://www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-catherine-ashton-phone-shoot-maidan-bugged-leaked

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet

 

The obligatory Comrade papski RT link:-

http://rt.com/news/estonia-confirm-leaked-tape-970/

 

Estonian Minister has confirmed authenticity of the recording, below.

 

 

The links have shorter versions of the video which cut to the chase.

 

All giving new meaning to the term pap smear.

[pap]

All giving new meaning to the term pap smear.

 

Real Verbal on holiday or something? Are you his word count challenged relief?

[Barry Sanchez]

Just seen on BBC that some senators in Washington are talking about shipping US gas to Europe, in code to get a rocket up the Germans arse.

[bridge too far]

I don't really know what's going on in Ukraine. I read the papers and listen to the BBC but I'm not finding an answer to a question I have.

 

As I understand it, Ukraine deposed its president and government by demonstrations and revolt and not by democratic and fair elections. Is that right?

 

I'm also led to believe that the replacement Ukraine government comprises a large number of fascist / extreme right wing representatives. Is that right?

 

So why is perceived to be an illegal act for Crimea to want to hold a referendum? Some are saying that's undemocratic and illegal, but is it any more undemocratic and illegal than what's happened in Ukraine?

[aintforever]

I don't really know what's going on in Ukraine. I read the papers and listen to the BBC but I'm not finding an answer to a question I have.

 

As I understand it, Ukraine deposed its president and government by demonstrations and revolt and not by democratic and fair elections. Is that right?

 

I'm also led to believe that the replacement Ukraine government comprises a large number of fascist / extreme right wing representatives. Is that right?

 

So why is perceived to be an illegal act for Crimea to want to hold a referendum? Some are saying that's undemocratic and illegal, but is it any more undemocratic and illegal than what's happened in Ukraine?

 

I think Ukraine deposed its president by taking a vote in their parliament after he was having demonstrators shot.

[dubai_phil]

A really interesting article found by a pal of mine in the US media but by someone based in Kiev

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/opinion/sunday/how-russia-has-already-lost-the-war.html?_r=0

Worth reading the full article but here is a snippet.

 

(Mrs D_P's pals are in Kiev Airport in transit as I type this and everything there is calm organised and peaceful and everyone is going out of their way to thank them for using their Airline...)

 

KIEV, Ukraine — OVER the past two weeks, residents of Kiev have lived through its bloodiest conflict since the Second World War, watched their reviled president flee and a new, provisional team take charge, seen Russian troops take control of part of the country, and heard Russia’s president, Vladimir V. Putin, assert his right to take further military action. Yet the Ukrainian capital is calm.

Revolutions often falter on Day 2, as Ukraine has already bitterly learned twice — once after the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union and then again in 2005 after the Orange Revolution. That could happen again, but the new revolution is enjoying a prolonged honeymoon, thanks to Mr. Putin, whose intervention in Ukrainian foreign and trade policy provoked the uprising in the first place, and whose invasion has, paradoxically, increased its chance of long-term success.

 

Kiev smells like a smoky summer camp, from the bonfires burning to keep the demonstrators still out on Independence Square warm, but every day it is tidier. Sidewalks in the city center are checkerboarded with neat piles of bricks that had been dug up to serve as missiles and are now being put back.

The police, despised for their corruption and repression, are returning to work. Their squad cars often sport Ukrainian flags and many have a “self-defense” activist from the protests with them. A Western ambassador told me that the activists were there to protect the cops from angry citizens. My uncle, who lives here, said they were also there to stop the police from slipping back into their old ways and demanding bribes.

This revolution may yet be eaten by its own incompetence or by infighting. A presidential election is scheduled for May, and the race, negative campaigning and all, has quietly begun. The oligarchs, some of whom have cannily been appointed governors of the potentially restive eastern regions, are jockeying for power. But for now, Ukrainians, who were brought together by shared hatred of the former president, Viktor F. Yanukovych, are being brought closer still by the Kremlin-backed invasion.

“Yanukovych freed Ukraine and Putin is uniting it,” said Iegor Soboliev, a 37-year-old ethnic Russian who heads a government commission to vet officials of the former regime. “Ukraine is functioning not through its government but through the self-organization of its people and their sense of human decency.”

Mr. Soboliev is a former investigative journalist who grew frustrated that carefully documented revelations of government misbehavior — which he says “wasn’t merely corruption, it was marauding” — were having no impact. He and a few friends formed Volya, a movement dedicated to creating a country of “responsible citizens” and a “state worthy of their trust.”

“People in Odessa, Mykolaiv, Donetsk and Dnipropetrovsk are coming out to defend their country,” Mr. Soboliev said. “They have never liked the western Ukrainian, Galician point of view. But they are showing themselves to be equally patriotic. They are defending their country from foreign aggression. Fantastical things are happening.”

This conflict could flare into Europe’s first major war of the 21st century, and Crimea may never again be part of Ukraine. But no matter what happens over the next few months, or even years, Mr. Putin and his vision of an authoritarian, Russian-dominated former Soviet space have already lost. Democratic, independent Ukraine, and the messy, querulous (but also free and law-abiding) European idea have won.

 

 

 

So far, the only certain victory is the ideological one. Many outsiders have interpreted the past three months as a Yugoslav-style ethno-cultural fight. It is nothing of the kind. This is a political struggle. Notwithstanding the bloodshed, the best parallel is with Prague’s Velvet Revolution of 1989. The emphasis there on changing society’s moral tone, and each person’s behavior, was likewise central to the protests that overthrew Mr. Yanukovych.

For Ukraine, as well as for Russia and much of the former U.S.S.R., the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 was only a partial revolution. The U.S.S.R. vanished, but the old nomenklatura, and its venal, authoritarian style of governance remained. Mr. Putin is explicitly drawing on that heritage and fitfully trying to reshape it into a new state capitalist system that can compete and flourish globally. An alliance with Mr. Yanukovych’s Ukraine was an essential part of that plan.

That effort has now failed. Whatever Mr. Putin achieves in Ukraine, it will not be partnership with a Slavic younger brother enthusiastically joining in his neo-imperialist, neo-Soviet project.

The unanswered question is whether Ukraine can be a practical success. The economy needs a total structural overhaul — and that huge shift needs to be accomplished while either radically transforming, or creating from scratch, effective government institutions.

This is the work Central Europe and the Baltic states did in the 1990s. Their example shows that it can be done, but it takes a long time, requires a patient and united populace, and probably also the promise of European partnership.

Continue reading the main story

[Whitey Grandad]

I think Ukraine deposed its president by taking a vote in their parliament after he was having demonstrators shot.

 

He scarpered, effectively he resigned.

[pap]

I think Ukraine deposed its president by taking a vote in their parliament after he was having demonstrators shot.

 

I take it you didn't listen to the Estonian Foreign Minister's chat with Catherine Ashton.

 

Needless to say, there is some dispute about which parties were firing on demonstrators.

 

When it comes down to it, both votes ( Ukraine's to depose its president, Crimea's to become part of Russia ) have about as much legitimacy as each other.

Edited 8 March, 2014 by pap
Whoops; Catherine, not Caroline. Still, 10 hours and no-one noticed :)

[dubai_phil]

My favourite conspiracy theory so far is that #globalsfc #russkiesaints engineered the annexation of Crimea because there weren't enough Saints fans in Ukraine

 

#notserious #lotofbeer #40pointparty

[Halo Stickman]

Been reading Execution By Hunger: The Hidden Holocaust by Miron Dolot – an eye witness testimony of the Soviet’s often brutal implication of collective farming in the Ukraine and the 1932/33 famine which followed, referred to as Holodomor (see link). This book certainly gives a good insight into some of the region’s historical tensions.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

[Barry Sanchez]

Reading this again has made me chuckle.

[Batman]

on the verge of all out war.

NATO is obliged to step in (if they keep their end of the bargain)

[Minty]

on the verge of all out war.

 

I think we're a little way from that just yet.

[Batman]

I think we're a little way from that just yet.

 

it will never get that far. but makes good viewing from your armchair

I do laugh at out lot (and the yanks) getting on their moral high ground about it all

[Window Cleaner]

it will never get that far. but makes good viewing from your armchair

I do laugh at out lot (and the yanks) getting on their moral high ground about it all

 

 

in the mean time I believe we have all banned 21 Russian and Ukrainian diplomats or something from our shores. What is the f*cking point of doing that, if they want to come to one of the countries that has "banned" them they'll just travel under a false name with state sponsored false doucuments, like their spies have been doing for these past 70 years.

[pap]

it will never get that far. but makes good viewing from your armchair

I do laugh at out lot (and the yanks) getting on their moral high ground about it all

 

It's especially amusing because they were caught on tape discussing regime change prior to the glorious revolution.

 

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm

[Batman]

It's especially amusing because they were caught on tape discussing regime change prior to the glorious revolution.

 

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm

 

I have not opened that link but I assume it is from pre 2008 as Obama would never let that happen. he is the greatest man ever

[Window Cleaner]

I have not opened that link but I assume it is from pre 2008 as Obama would never let that happen. he is the greatest man ever

 

 

As per usual Obama has by now found out that he controls precisely nothing. Anyway this came from last month, wasn't the famous fùck the EU statement part of that conversation, certainly came from Nuland, hawkess in chief at State.

[pap]

Bah.

 

Putting this here as it isn't strictly Crimea.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-officials-in-eastern-city-of-donetsk-proclaim-independence-from-kiev-and-set-date-for-referendum-on-joining-russia-9243750.html

 

Donetsk have done something similar and have proclaimed independence from Ukraine. Referendum to follow.

[Halo Stickman]

A few weeks ago, I came across this article by a chap called James Sheer in an interview in The Ukrainian Week on 6 August 2013.

 

http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/86263

 

This interview was obviously conducted at a time when it appeared that Ukraine was about to sign an Association Agreement with the EU – something which turned out not to happen, precipitating the present crisis. I thought the following excerpt was particularly interesting:

 

Let me give you an ominous analogy. In April 2008, NATO had a summit in Bucharest and came up with the formula that Ukraine and Georgia will become members of NATO. This had a major effect on Russia’s whole cycle of thinking and planning. Our recognition of Kosovo’s independence was clearly a factor in repelling Russia on the course which led to war in Georgia in August that year.

 

If the EU signs an Association Agreement with Ukraine, the Russians will interpret this as the beginning of Ukraine’s integration into the EU ending with membership. Because of the huge stakes attached to Ukraine not moving into the EU’s orbit, which would mean Russia losing influence and losing the ability to guide Ukraine, its policy, trajectory, and economy, there will almost inescapably be pressure in Moscow to respond and try to derail this process. The worry that should exist in Kyiv and Brussels is how they might derail it particularly given the present condition of Ukraine, its vulnerabilities, its strained internal situation, its divisions, the presence and influence of economic interests in the country closely bound to Russia, intelligence services, the Black Sea fleet in Crimea, and so on and so forth. If some people imagine that from the day the Association Agreement is signed, Ukraine’s position becomes progressively more secure and better, they might have a very rude shock.

 

[pap]

A few weeks ago, I came across this article by a chap called James Sheer in an interview in The Ukrainian Week on 6 August 2013.

 

http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/86263

 

This interview was obviously conducted at a time when it appeared that Ukraine was about to sign an Association Agreement with the EU – something which turned out not to happen, precipitating the present crisis. I thought the following excerpt was particularly interesting:

 

That article is an excellent read. Thanks for posting it.

 

Really goes to show how little Westerners know about the region or the way it works. One conclusion you can definitely draw is that Ukraine is nowhere near being able to join the EU and benefit. Sounds like the people running things wouldn't be super-happy about the transfer of sovereignty. Even if Ukraine did join the EU, I can see it being like an extreme version of Denmark when it comes to flouting membership requirements. Can you really imagine the far right nationalists welcoming their EU fellow citizens under the rules of the Single Market?

[Barry Sanchez]

That article is an excellent read. Thanks for posting it.

 

Really goes to show how little Westerners know about the region or the way it works. One conclusion you can definitely draw is that Ukraine is nowhere near being able to join the EU and benefit. Sounds like the people running things wouldn't be super-happy about the transfer of sovereignty. Even if Ukraine did join the EU, I can see it being like an extreme version of Denmark when it comes to flouting membership requirements. Can you really imagine the far right nationalists welcoming their EU fellow citizens under the rules of the Single Market?

 

 

Many of the new entrants into the EU have well established extreme right wing movements , its not new but ironic given the treatment the fascists gave them. I dont think its the Europeans the extremists have issues with.

[Halo Stickman]

That article is an excellent read. Thanks for posting it.

 

Really goes to show how little Westerners know about the region or the way it works. One conclusion you can definitely draw is that Ukraine is nowhere near being able to join the EU and benefit. Sounds like the people running things wouldn't be super-happy about the transfer of sovereignty. Even if Ukraine did join the EU, I can see it being like an extreme version of Denmark when it comes to flouting membership requirements. Can you really imagine the far right nationalists welcoming their EU fellow citizens under the rules of the Single Market?

 

I find the political situation in Ukraine quite fascinating: the relative embryonic state of the country renders their politics raw and unrefined; hence, their politicians tend to be, let’s say, more colourful than the homologous grey-suits in the UK and other places. I, too, struggle to comprehend how anyone could think that Ukraine would be suitable for inclusion within the EU; although, they’d certainly shake the damn place up, I suppose.

 

As for right-wing politics in Ukraine: the furthest right ground is mainly occupied by a party called Svoboda. Two points:

 

1/ How relevant are Svoboda?

 

In the 2007 presidential elections they won 0.76 percent of the votes cast. In 2012 they won 10.44 percent, gaining 38 out of 450 parliamentary seats. In a presidential election opinion poll, conducted in December 2013 during the recent crisis, their leader, Oleh Tyahnybok, won the popular vote with 28.8 percent. Of course, there were extenuating circumstances at play during this poll; nevertheless, IMO, it’s fair to say that Svoboda are becoming increasingly relevant.

 

2/ How right wing are Svoboda?

 

Opinions vary: some commentators say they are extreme right, fascist and anti-Semitic etc; Svoboda dispute this, and say they are simply nationalistic. People will have to come to their own conclusions; but, having read up as much as I can about them, IMO, it’s fair to say that they’re more BNP than UKIP.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29

[Barry Sanchez]

They are not that relevant but merely an excuse for the Russians and apologists.

[alpine_saint]

Personally I reckon all the right-wing agitation is being stoked up and funded by the Russians as an excuse for them to invade at some yet to be decided point. Its mid-30s Nazi tactics all over again.

 

And when the authorities in Ukraine move to take back control of these stupid little occupations and delcarations of independence in towns like Donetsk, it just gives the Russians even more excuse.

 

"Motherland protecting ethinc Russians"