Ukraine

[Window Cleaner]

only do visa restrictions on the poor people then. Simples.

 

Who needs poor people anyway, filthy russian lucre to pay 50 million for Torres (inc about 8 million VAT) now you're talking.

Just can't think how much Abrahamovic money the treasury must have siphoned off over the years. Probably enough to buy the Crimea.

[Barry Sanchez]

That'll work. We won't take any gas from the pipeline the Russians will cut off or the Ukrainians will block. I thought we had visa restrictions for non EU countries already. The bull****ting politicians will have their bluff called by the Russians who don't do politics. The veto will take care of the UN. The US will file it in the too difficult to deal with drawer. I'm sure the EU commission will deal with it, after all they ****ed the Russians off by suggesting closer ties

 

Lets see what the Government decide, does this action give larger Countries a free ride over others?

[Tokyo-Saint]

your suggestion is to do nothing

 

Where's this then? When did I say that? I just wanted to know what action you had in mind as you were so up for action.

 

How much oil and gas do we actually get from Russia?

 

About a third of all oil used in the EU and over a third of our natural gas. Could put a spanner in Labour's price freeze strategy.

[pap]

Lets see what the Government decide, does this action give larger Countries a free ride over others?

 

Russia is not just a big country. It's a permanent member of the UN Security Council, a nuclear power and a huge provider of energy.

 

Of all the super-powers, it's the one that could most easily say "f**k you" to the rest of the world and not be bothered about it.

[Halo Stickman]

One thing we could do: take the 2018 World Cup off them, play it here instead.

 

May not get Putin quaking in his boots, but would make me happy.

[Barry Sanchez]

Russia is not just a big country. It's a permanent member of the UN Security Council, a nuclear power and a huge provider of energy.

 

Of all the super-powers, it's the one that could most easily say "f**k you" to the rest of the world and not be bothered about it.

 

Pap their currency took a battering today, they couldn't be isolated forever if they export a lot it means they are reliant on others, I have asked the question repeatedly and yet no answer how much oil and gas do we import from Russia?

[Barry Sanchez]

One thing we could do: take the 2018 World Cup off them, play it here instead.

 

May not get Putin quaking in his boots, but would make me happy.

 

That is an action Ukraine may possibly ask for.

[Bearsy]

I have asked the question repeatedly and yet no answer how much oil and gas do we import from Russia?

 

i read somewhere it is about a third. I can't remember where i read this tho. It didn't seem a very respectable source at the time but it is the best i have got.

[Tokyo-Saint]

, I have asked the question repeatedly and yet no answer how much oil and gas do we import from Russia?

 

I told you, just over a third of our (The EU's) gas and oil supply.

[Tokyo-Saint]

 

It's a third Barry, trust me.

[Barry Sanchez]

I told you, just over a third of our (The EU's) gas and oil supply.

 

No the UK's, I know Germany import a 3rd hence their silence what is ours?

[Bearsy]

No the UK's, I know Germany import a 3rd hence their silence what is ours?

 

i read somewhere it is about a third.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Your google broken Barry?

 

According to Gazprom the UK imported 8.16 billion barrels in 2011. This would make Russia the third largest source of natural gas imports after Norway and Qatar.

 

The rest you can look up yourself.

[Minsk]

How many people in Eastern Ukraine consider themselves Russian? Isn't it quite a high percentage?

 

Yes, it is.

[Window Cleaner]

Your google broken Barry?

 

According to Gazprom the UK imported 8.16 billion barrels in 2011. This would make Russia the third largest source of natural gas imports after Norway and Qatar.

 

The rest you can look up yourself.

 

Gas imports are measured in millions of cubic metres, oil imports are measured in barrils. I'd be surprised if UK gas imports from Russia are anywhere near as high as is being stated on this thread. Could be wrong though. I thought Norway and Qatar were the main suppliers of natural gas to the Uk which has some stocks of it's own still.

[Barry Sanchez]

Gas imports are measured in millions of cubic metres, oil imports are measured in barrils. I'd be surprised if UK gas imports from Russia are anywhere near as high as is being stated on this thread. Could be wrong though. I thought Norway and Qatar were the main suppliers of natural gas to the Uk which has some stocks of it's own still.

 

Hence me asking, I know Qatar are by far the largest, typical tub thumping on here with actullly no back up at all.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Yes you are correct, however my point was the eu as let's face it, they don't give a **** about us alone. We do import a lot of coal from them though.

[Barry Sanchez]

Yes you are correct, however my point was the eu as let's face it, they don't give a **** about us alone. We do import a lot of coal from them though.

 

That will do for me sweetcheeks, at least you admit you know nothing about it.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Its about a third Barry. I have stated the eu all along. The price of our energy is strongly linked to how much the eu is paying for theirs and their supply. We have very little of our own these days.

Edited 3 March, 2014 by Tokyo-Saint

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I see tonight the Russia government is officially distancing itself from reports that a ultimatum to disarm, or face battle, had been issued to Ukrainian forces based in the Crimea. That's a good thing as far as it goes needless to say, but in this type of incredibly tense situation things can suddenly happen on the ground that are quite beyond the control of any politician or senior officer ... one unstable teenage conscript with a AK-74 in his hand could initiate a crisis that could rapidly spiral completely out of control with dire consequences across the region and elsewhere.

 

I see the Rouble has come under intense pressure today and the Russian Central Bank has be forced to intervene in the international money markets. I'm tempted to draw a comparison here with how the USA's huge economic might forced Britain and France to withdraw from their badly misconceived 'Suez' Operation back in the 1950's. That obvious comparison however may not be valid in this much more complex situation.

 

These are dangerous times folks.

[SuperMikey]

I'm sure I read somewhere it was a third, can't remember where tho

[SuperMikey]

Oops, wrong log-in.

[dubai_phil]

Your google broken Barry?

 

According to Gazprom the UK imported 8.16 billion barrels in 2011. This would make Russia the third largest source of natural gas imports after Norway and Qatar.

 

The rest you can look up yourself.

 

Hmm perhaps the 2018 World Cup will get moved after all..

 

 

To Norway

 

This has to be the strangest thread outside of PTS in the history of the Lounge.

 

Toke's & Bearsy debating sensible stuff sensibly.

 

I'm off back to Amsterdam, too bloody weird here for a first day back

[so22saint]

Hmm perhaps the 2018 World Cup will get moved after all..

 

 

To Norway

 

This has to be the strangest thread outside of PTS in the history of the Lounge.

 

Toke's & Bearsy debating sensible stuff sensibly.

 

I'm off back to Amsterdam, too bloody weird here for a first day back

 

i know, it must be a sign of the apocolypse - ha ha

 

oh

[Barry Sanchez]

Russia has lost billions today, they certainly could not continue a war with the States concerning money, they dont have the energy issue we do.

[Chicken With A Banjo]

Russia:

 

They have most of Eurasia (China included) by the balls not because of the gas they produce but because of the monopoly they have on the gas pipelines. They produce loads of gas, they produce a bit less oil but is their unique ability to shift other peoples product around as well as their own that puts them in such a strong position. They do not have a monopoly on oil, but on gas they really do and as it happens, due to liberalisation of energy markets Europe's energy mix is now hugely dependent on gas. Europe can do nothing about it. They tried to plan their own pipeline, Russia outmanoeuvred them with bribery and the European project failed. Liquefied natural gas is uneconomical. If Europe won't buy the Russians gas, China will.

 

The Russian government is phenomenally wealthy. They have huge cash reserves of all sorts of foreign currency (all the currencies in which their gas is bought) to call on for whatever purpose they see fit. A wobble in the rouble won't effect them at all. Even the ordinary people of Russia are now relatively wealthy. Many own their properties outright whereas Westerners generally have huge mortgages. Wherever you go on holiday in the world now, you will find Russians there spending money because they have nothing else to spend it on. If you think the world is going to impose sanctions, not buy Russian supplied resources and stop Russians spending their money, you're utterly mental.

 

The US and the UK should be ashamed of their part in this. The fact is, the uprising started because some Ukrainians were disappointed that the president rejected an offer from the European Union to bail them out of the debt problem they had got themselves into. Copied from elsewhere:

 

The EU Deal:

 

A tenuous free trade deal with the EU was offered, with no clear path to EU membership as a whole. The IMF offered $4 billion, provided that Ukraine double prices for gas and electricity to industry and residents, they lift a ban on private sale of Ukraine's agricultural lands, devalue their currency, and slash state funds for school children and the elderly in order to balance the budget.

 

 

The Russian Deal:

 

$15 Billion in loans to assuage impending bankruptcy, and a massive (33%) discount on Russian gas (Russia is by far the largest supplier of gas in Ukraine). There was no requirements of the Ukraine that were publicly known, but it seems likely they would have joined the customs agreement between Russia and Belarus and Kazakhstan. Basically a free trade area, much like NAFTA.

 

The Russian deal was clearly the right deal to take in the interests of the average Ukrainian person. People protesting either didn't understand the deal or were inciting a situation with ulterior motives, undoubtedly the US were involved in this no doubt ourselves too.

We have stirred up a hornets nest in Russia's back yard, and Russia is perfectly entitled to deal with the situation. So far they've dealt with it extremely well, and I see only hypocrisy from the Western politicians and media.

[LVSaint]

Of course that was only possible because of the ethnic cleansing of the Tartars.

 

Source?

[Barry Sanchez]

Russia:

 

They have most of Eurasia (China included) by the balls not because of the gas they produce but because of the monopoly they have on the gas pipelines. They produce loads of gas, they produce a bit less oil but is their unique ability to shift other peoples product around as well as their own that puts them in such a strong position. They do not have a monopoly on oil, but on gas they really do and as it happens, due to liberalisation of energy markets Europe's energy mix is now hugely dependent on gas. Europe can do nothing about it. They tried to plan their own pipeline, Russia outmanoeuvred them with bribery and the European project failed. Liquefied natural gas is uneconomical. If Europe won't buy the Russians gas, China will.

 

The Russian government is phenomenally wealthy. They have huge cash reserves of all sorts of foreign currency (all the currencies in which their gas is bought) to call on for whatever purpose they see fit. A wobble in the rouble won't effect them at all. Even the ordinary people of Russia are now relatively wealthy. Many own their properties outright whereas Westerners generally have huge mortgages. Wherever you go on holiday in the world now, you will find Russians there spending money because they have nothing else to spend it on. If you think the world is going to impose sanctions, not buy Russian supplied resources and stop Russians spending their money, you're utterly mental.

 

The US and the UK should be ashamed of their part in this. The fact is, the uprising started because some Ukrainians were disappointed that the president rejected an offer from the European Union to bail them out of the debt problem they had got themselves into. Copied from elsewhere:

 

The EU Deal:

 

A tenuous free trade deal with the EU was offered, with no clear path to EU membership as a whole. The IMF offered $4 billion, provided that Ukraine double prices for gas and electricity to industry and residents, they lift a ban on private sale of Ukraine's agricultural lands, devalue their currency, and slash state funds for school children and the elderly in order to balance the budget.

 

 

The Russian Deal:

 

$15 Billion in loans to assuage impending bankruptcy, and a massive (33%) discount on Russian gas (Russia is by far the largest supplier of gas in Ukraine). There was no requirements of the Ukraine that were publicly known, but it seems likely they would have joined the customs agreement between Russia and Belarus and Kazakhstan. Basically a free trade area, much like NAFTA.

 

The Russian deal was clearly the right deal to take in the interests of the average Ukrainian person. People protesting either didn't understand the deal or were inciting a situation with ulterior motives, undoubtedly the US were involved in this no doubt ourselves too.

We have stirred up a hornets nest in Russia's back yard, and Russia is perfectly entitled to deal with the situation. So far they've dealt with it extremely well, and I see only hypocrisy from the Western politicians and media.

 

 

 

I disagree with almost everything you have written there but I shall start with your finishing point, what right do Russia have to march in to another Country?

Clearly the average Ukrainian did not think it was the in the best interests of them do they?

And how much has Yanukovych taken out the Country and how much did he get for that?

Russia is full of cronies and at the top is Putin, Gazprom and the like.

 

 

Yanukovych calling Ukrainians bandits is funny as if you trace the Russian blood all the way back where do you get to?

[Barry Sanchez]

Source?

 

Approx 200,000 Tatars were deported by Stalin, but very good none the less.

[LVSaint]

Approx 200,000 Tatars were deported by Stalin, but very good none the less.

 

Sounds fishy

[pap]

Russia:

 

They have most of Eurasia (China included) by the balls not because of the gas they produce but because of the monopoly they have on the gas pipelines. They produce loads of gas, they produce a bit less oil but is their unique ability to shift other peoples product around as well as their own that puts them in such a strong position. They do not have a monopoly on oil, but on gas they really do and as it happens, due to liberalisation of energy markets Europe's energy mix is now hugely dependent on gas. Europe can do nothing about it. They tried to plan their own pipeline, Russia outmanoeuvred them with bribery and the European project failed. Liquefied natural gas is uneconomical. If Europe won't buy the Russians gas, China will.

 

The Russian government is phenomenally wealthy. They have huge cash reserves of all sorts of foreign currency (all the currencies in which their gas is bought) to call on for whatever purpose they see fit. A wobble in the rouble won't effect them at all. Even the ordinary people of Russia are now relatively wealthy. Many own their properties outright whereas Westerners generally have huge mortgages. Wherever you go on holiday in the world now, you will find Russians there spending money because they have nothing else to spend it on. If you think the world is going to impose sanctions, not buy Russian supplied resources and stop Russians spending their money, you're utterly mental.

 

The US and the UK should be ashamed of their part in this. The fact is, the uprising started because some Ukrainians were disappointed that the president rejected an offer from the European Union to bail them out of the debt problem they had got themselves into. Copied from elsewhere:

 

The EU Deal:

 

A tenuous free trade deal with the EU was offered, with no clear path to EU membership as a whole. The IMF offered $4 billion, provided that Ukraine double prices for gas and electricity to industry and residents, they lift a ban on private sale of Ukraine's agricultural lands, devalue their currency, and slash state funds for school children and the elderly in order to balance the budget.

 

 

The Russian Deal:

 

$15 Billion in loans to assuage impending bankruptcy, and a massive (33%) discount on Russian gas (Russia is by far the largest supplier of gas in Ukraine). There was no requirements of the Ukraine that were publicly known, but it seems likely they would have joined the customs agreement between Russia and Belarus and Kazakhstan. Basically a free trade area, much like NAFTA.

 

The Russian deal was clearly the right deal to take in the interests of the average Ukrainian person. People protesting either didn't understand the deal or were inciting a situation with ulterior motives, undoubtedly the US were involved in this no doubt ourselves too.

We have stirred up a hornets nest in Russia's back yard, and Russia is perfectly entitled to deal with the situation. So far they've dealt with it extremely well, and I see only hypocrisy from the Western politicians and media.

 

Excellent post, Chicken With a Banjo. I too think the West has been pushing its luck for far too long with respect to the former Eastern bloc.

 

Former Eastern Bloc

 

 

EU

 

[Barry Sanchez]

Excellent post, Chicken With a Banjo. I too think the West has been pushing its luck for far too long with respect to the former Eastern bloc.

 

Eastern Bloc

 

 

EU

 

 

 

So you deny the people to speak and protest? Why do you respect the Russians so much for these actions, you of all people I would have thought would have been outraged at this violation.

[dubai_phil]

Thing is Barry, conceptually, what the Russians are doing is right. Defending Russian speakers and their Military bases from an unknown threat. Morally & legally it is a crock of sh1t of course, this makes it much harder for Rhetoric and Spin to work against it.

 

In some ways it is possible that the much hated Globalisation will be the thing that stops this escalating into WW3.Let's face it, London would be bankrupt if all the Oligarchs pulled out over night & the EU recovery would fizzle out if Germany had to start paying double for it's energy prices.

 

All Politicians are corrupt, they took the Roubles The Riyalls or whatever and now find themselves looking stupid.

 

Also, let us not forget that the Revolution was instigated by many factions coming together in opposition. A core element were in simple terms Fascists. The new Ukraine Government took a few hours too long to reclaim control. THEY opened the door to this. The West simply helped them find a handle.

 

Listening to Hague condeming an unpopular invasion brought back so many images of the build up bullsh1t to the invasion of Iraq.

 

The world is a goddam mess

[pap]

So you deny the people to speak and protest? Why do you respect the Russians so much for these actions, you of all people I would have thought would have been outraged at this violation.

 

The Russians don't have to be liked, but they've got to be respected. That's part and parcel of the way superpowers work, and a big reason why superpowers keep schtum over certain issues. If freedom of the people is such an important feature of a society, why aren't countries like the US imposing sanctions on China for its continuing occupation of Tibet? Why isn't there a prominent member of the US Administration seeking human rights in Saudi Arabia, or any other of the dictatorships that the US cosies up to the in the Arab world?

 

We turn a blind eye when we want to, and get involved when we want to. It's all opportunistic; there are huge commercial gains to be made from Ukraine. The EU was seeking to consolidate through accession what Hitler couldn't hold down in war; access to the vast resources of that country. They f**ked up and should have offered Ukraine a better deal.

[Barry Sanchez]

Thing is Barry, conceptually, what the Russians are doing is right. Defending Russian speakers and their Military bases from an unknown threat. Morally & legally it is a crock of sh1t of course, this makes it much harder for Rhetoric and Spin to work against it.

 

In some ways it is possible that the much hated Globalisation will be the thing that stops this escalating into WW3.Let's face it, London would be bankrupt if all the Oligarchs pulled out over night & the EU recovery would fizzle out if Germany had to start paying double for it's energy prices.

 

All Politicians are corrupt, they took the Roubles The Riyalls or whatever and now find themselves looking stupid.

 

Also, let us not forget that the Revolution was instigated by many factions coming together in opposition. A core element were in simple terms Fascists. The new Ukraine Government took a few hours too long to reclaim control. THEY opened the door to this. The West simply helped them find a handle.

 

Listening to Hague condeming an unpopular invasion brought back so many images of the build up bullsh1t to the invasion of Iraq.

 

The world is a goddam mess

 

 

They are sidenotes and distractions, the issue is a Country has been occupied against its will and being chopped up before our very eyes and it shall be a sacrificial lamb to keep the peace, this has happened before.

[Barry Sanchez]

The Russians don't have to be liked, but they've got to be respected. That's part and parcel of the way superpowers work, and a big reason why superpowers keep schtum over certain issues. If freedom of the people is such an important feature of a society, why aren't countries like the US imposing sanctions on China for its continuing occupation of Tibet? Why isn't there a prominent member of the US Administration seeking human rights in Saudi Arabia, or any other of the dictatorships that the US cosies up to the in the Arab world?

 

We turn a blind eye when we want to, and get involved when we want to. It's all opportunistic; there are huge commercial gains to be made from Ukraine. The EU was seeking to consolidate through accession what Hitler couldn't hold down in war; access to the vast resources of that country. They f**ked up and should have offered Ukraine a better deal.

The Russians are not liked, they are feared not respected, the US, a united Europe and China could bring them to heal, they have a resource we need it does work both ways, we have a surplus of fuel due to a mild summer and the spring is on its way, I'll take a chance and roll the dice.

[Verbal]

So you deny the people to speak and protest? Why do you respect the Russians so much for these actions, you of all people I would have thought would have been outraged at this violation.

 

There'll be blood, Bazza (contra RT fanboy papski).

 

By the way, does this mean we can declare Stamford Bridge enemy territory and impose sanctions on John Terry?

[pap]

The Russians are not liked, they are feared not respected, the US, a united Europe and China could bring them to heal, they have a resource we need it does work both ways, we have a surplus of fuel due to a mild summer and the spring is on its way, I'll take a chance and roll the dice.

 

As I said earlier, "Ha! Thoughts".

 

I don't feel bad for repetition either; this post clearly vindicates me.

 

You source nothing; everything is opinion. Like your opener. "They are feared not respected". I hope diplomats don't conduct their activities with this mantra in mind. Does Merkel run from bipartisan Russian-German talks, screaming about that nasty Ivan?

 

You talk about a united Europe for the purposes of your argument here, yet say it can't happen on the EU threads. With respect to good guy USA and bad guys Russia, you seem to be operating under the illusion that we're living in the late 1980s (not just on this issue, Mavis).

 

Can you expand on these please?

 

"bring them to heal"?

"take a chance and roll the dice"?

 

About 70% of your post is unsubstantiated waffle, mate. Quite an achievement given it was a single sentence.

[pap]

contra RT fanboy papski

 

I rather like papski. I think I shall adopt it.

 

Verbalberg for your good self?

[Barry Sanchez]

As I said earlier, "Ha! Thoughts".

 

I don't feel bad for repetition either; this post clearly vindicates me.

 

You source nothing; everything is opinion. Like your opener. "They are feared not respected". I hope diplomats don't conduct their activities with this mantra in mind. Does Merkel run from bipartisan Russian-German talks, screaming about that nasty Ivan?

 

You talk about a united Europe for the purposes of your argument here, yet say it can't happen on the EU threads. With respect to good guy USA and bad guys Russia, you seem to be operating under the illusion that we're living in the late 1980s (not just on this issue, Mavis).

 

Can you expand on these please?

 

"bring them to heal"?

"take a chance and roll the dice"?

 

About 70% of your post is unsubstantiated waffle, mate. Quite an achievement given it was a single sentence.

 

And for a pro European you seem to be actually distinctly anti European and thats quite an achievement, I am actually anti invasion, you obviously love it, you will be burning your books next and beating up gays, after that onto Moscow hey Burp?

Edited 3 March, 2014 by Barry Sanchez

[Barry Sanchez]

As I said earlier, "Ha! Thoughts".

 

I don't feel bad for repetition either; this post clearly vindicates me.

 

You source nothing; everything is opinion. Like your opener. "They are feared not respected". I hope diplomats don't conduct their activities with this mantra in mind. Does Merkel run from bipartisan Russian-German talks, screaming about that nasty Ivan?

 

You talk about a united Europe for the purposes of your argument here, yet say it can't happen on the EU threads. With respect to good guy USA and bad guys Russia, you seem to be operating under the illusion that we're living in the late 1980s (not just on this issue, Mavis).

 

Can you expand on these please?

 

"bring them to heal"?

"take a chance and roll the dice"?

 

About 70% of your post is unsubstantiated waffle, mate. Quite an achievement given it was a single sentence.

 

No Merkel wont risk the German economy to stand up to "Ivan" as you put it, I would have thought a man of morals like yourself would hang her to out to dry for this realpolitik?

[pap]

And for a pro European you seem to be actually distinctly anti European and thats quite an achievement, I am actually anti invasion, you obviously love it, you will be burning your books next and beating up gays, after that onto Moscow hey Burp?

 

 

No Merkel wont risk the German economy to stand up to "Ivan" as you put it, I would have thought a man of morals like yourself would hang her to out to dry for this realpolitik?

 

So you can't expand on any of your points? Fair enough. Won't bother dignifying any of your "questions". Poor show here, I feel.

[Jonnyboy]

Barry's D grade O-level in politics coming to the fore tonight I see.

[Barry Sanchez]

 

 

 

So you can't expand on any of your points? Fair enough. Won't bother dignifying any of your "questions". Poor show here, I feel.

 

How very noble of you, very hypocritical and pick and mix of you there Burp.

I dont need to expand on anything as you have ask me nothing of real value all day, more over you never do, copy and paste as always.

[Barry Sanchez]

Barry's D grade O-level in politics coming to the fore tonight I see.

 

What do you disagree with?

[pap]

How very noble of you, very hypocritical and pix and mix of you there Burp.

I dont need to expand on anything as you have ask me nothing of real value all day, more over you never do, copy and paste as always.

 

I have challenged you to put a little substance behind some of the broad statements you are making. I specifically asked what "bring them to heal" and "take a chance and roll the dice" meant.

 

Your response is that I'm pro-Europe, into book burning, gay bashing and loving invasions?

 

All I can truthfully say is that all of that has come from your own head. Worry.

Edited 3 March, 2014 by pap

[Barry Sanchez]

I have challenged you to put a little substance behind some of the broad statements you are making. I specifically asked what "bring them to heal" and "take a chance and roll the dice" meant.

 

Your response is that I'm pro-Europe, into book burning, gay bashing and loving invasions?

 

All I can truthfully say is that all of that has come from your own head. Worry.

 

Pap I am condemning this as bad thing you are trying to justify it, worry no, surprised no, not as controversial as some of your previous threads granted but stupid none the less. Take a chance meaning take nothing off the table, we are already discounting things only the Americans are not, of course there will not be NATO military action against Russia, but that should stop us pressuring them to leave a Country they have invaded.

[pap]

Pap I am condemning this as bad thing you are trying to justify it, worry no, surprised no, not as controversial as some of your previous threads granted but stupid none the less. Take a chance meaning take nothing off the table, we are already discounting things only the Americans are not, of course there will not be NATO military action against Russia, but that should stop us pressuring them to leave a Country they have invaded.

 

Fair enough; this is better stuff.

 

So "nothing off the table" presumably means war in the Ukraine, presumably prosecuted by a Western coalition against the Russian forces?

 

I'm not sure that it's going to be as easy to find a "coalition of the willing" when the stakes are slightly higher than going against a third-rate power in the Middle East. Every country will have to ask itself whether Ukraine is worth the potential consequences of a general war with one of the world's few remaining superpowers.

 

What do you think? Is Ukraine worth a war with Russia?

[Barry Sanchez]

Fair enough; this is better stuff.

 

So "nothing off the table" presumably means war in the Ukraine, presumably prosecuted by a Western coalition against the Russian forces?

 

I'm not sure that it's going to be as easy to find a "coalition of the willing" when the stakes are slightly higher than going against a third-rate power in the Middle East. Every country will have to ask itself whether Ukraine is worth the potential consequences of a general war with one of the world's few remaining superpowers.

 

What do you think? Is Ukraine worth a war with Russia?

 

 

Pap you are still trying to justify a bad thing, is what worth a war with Russia, Ukraine? Ukraine what Pap explain it a bit better ie give a scenario for me to comment upon, poor even for you, I am off to the land of nod, goodnight.

[pap]

Pap you are still trying to justify a bad thing, is what worth a war with Russia, Ukraine? Ukraine what Pap explain it a bit better ie give a scenario for me to comment upon, poor even for you, I am off to the land of nod, goodnight.

 

It's a yes or no question, prompted by your "nothing off the table" comment.

 

The answer is "no", by the way.