pap Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Of course you can. How's your Boston bombing false flag theory getting on? You know, I find it funny that someone that was evidently disgusted that I could even entertain such ideas skips over that disgust in an attempt to score cheap points. Go ask Verbal what to say.
aintforever Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 You know, I find it funny that someone that was evidently disgusted that I could even entertain such ideas skips over that disgust in an attempt to score cheap points. Go ask Verbal what to say. I wasn't disgusted, just amazed anyone over 12 years old could be so detached from reality. I have raised the point again because, despite you comments being in bad taste, you have yet to admit how wrong you were on both cases.
pap Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 I wasn't disgusted, just amazed anyone over 12 years old could be so detached from reality. Yeah, right. I suggest you go back to the Boston thread. You left in disgust after Verbal commanded you to. Thanks for that; it's made you even easier to deal with. Enjoy your faux disgust, yeah?
Barry Sanchez Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Back on this, are we? Let me know the next (first?) time you have an opinion of your own. I'll dismantle it if and when. Pap you got dismantled on that as well, bad week?
pap Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 . . .and the usual trolls take over the thread Yup. Shame. Barry accuses people of Googling their opinions, aintforever has nothing to say so rakes up something he thinks is a winner. I'd rather be discussing Ukraine on this thread.
Barry Sanchez Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 . . .and the usual trolls take over the thread I wanted a serious discussion on this as I am interested in this and also quite worried.
SO16_Saint Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Oh good....This thread is going THAT way again. What's the point of trying to have a sensible discussion topic
aintforever Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Yup. Shame. Barry accuses people of Googling their opinions, aintforever has nothing to say so rakes up something he thinks is a winner. I'd rather be discussing Ukraine on this thread. I've said what I think earlier on thanks. I don't really give a sh!te because it is nothing to do with us whatsoever. It's just a load of **** waving by the Russians, the UK and US have invaded enough countries so are in no position to take the moral high ground.
Barry Sanchez Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Back to the thread, I think this shall escalate with hopefully a Russian back down similar to the Cuban missile crisis, Putin is very hard edged though so its difficult to say.
Window Cleaner Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 I've said what I think earlier on thanks. I don't really give a sh!te because it is nothing to do with us whatsoever. It's just a load of **** waving by the Russians, the UK and US have invaded enough countries so are in no position to take the moral high ground. Well without being an expert on the Crimea I think it's more a case of the Russians protecting their no doubt sensitive bases than mere d**k waving. There are places you just can't let fall into the hands of just anyone.
pap Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Well without being an expert on the Crimea I think it's more a case of the Russians protecting their no doubt sensitive bases than mere d**k waving. There are places you just can't let fall into the hands of just anyone. Not sure how effective the Russians would be in the Middle East without Sevastapol as a base.
Window Cleaner Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Not sure how effective the Russians would be in the Middle East without Sevastapol as a base. Yes let's just say it's for access to the middle east without going the long way round, like the Falklands are important because they like being British and we need the extra sheep.
aintforever Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 (edited) Well without being an expert on the Crimea I think it's more a case of the Russians protecting their no doubt sensitive bases than mere d**k waving. There are places you just can't let fall into the hands of just anyone. Fair enough, certainly a better reason for invading than we had for invading Iraq. Seems like the best outcome for everyone would be a Ukraine split in half. Let the west have their links to Europe, let the side who prefer Russia go to them - everyones a winner. Not sure why that Bald headed ***t Hague needs to get involved. Edited 3 March, 2014 by aintforever
Window Cleaner Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Fair enough, certainly a better reason for invading than we had for invading Iraq. Seems like the best outcome for everyone would be a Ukraine split in half. Let the west have their links to Europe, let the side who prefer Russia go to them - everyones a winner. We weren't already in Iraq, don't the Russians have about 25000 troops in Crimea anyway ? Sounds about right really, mind you that really worked with India and Pakistan didn't it.
buctootim Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Fair enough, certainly a better reason for invading than we had for invading Iraq. Seems like the best outcome for everyone would be a Ukraine split in half. Let the west have their links to Europe, let the side who prefer Russia go to them - everyones a winner. Trouble with that is that the Ukraine was heavily settled by the Russians when it was part of the Soviet Union - like China is doing to Tibet. Ukrainians, not unreasonably do want to partition their country. As someone else said - its Northern Ireland again on a much bigger scale.
aintforever Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Trouble with that is that the Ukraine was heavily settled by the Russians when it was part of the Soviet Union - like China is doing to Tibet. Ukrainians, not unreasonably do want to partition their country. As someone else said - its Northern Ireland again on a much bigger scale. I agree that it's bound to get messy, nothing will change the fact that the majority in the west will want to be closer to Europe, and nothing will stop Russia wanting control over certain parts - something's got to give. We just need to stay out of it altogether.
Barry Sanchez Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 The Country as a whole has to vote on it, Putin wants to be known as the one who regained land as oppsed to one who lost it in his reign, Ukraine was used for years as the bread basket of the Soviet Union.
Johnny Bognor Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 ****'s getting serious. Ukraine have 11 hours to surrender or face assault on Crimea http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26424738
JoeShmoe Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 The west will huff and puff but they wont actually do anything, they're a paper tiger. The real issue will be if and when Russia tries to take the other states in Eastern Ukraine, and if/when Ukranian troops and civilians start dying
Barry Sanchez Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Another Chamberlain moment, the West should and has to act.
Sour Mash Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 How many people in Eastern Ukraine consider themselves Russian? Isn't it quite a high percentage?
pap Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Another Chamberlain moment, the West should and has to act. If you learn one thing from Chamberlain, it's that you should never put your foreign policy in the hands of another country. We emboldened the Poles by "guaranteeing" them safety. This made them intransigent and truculent in dealings with Hitler, and were destroyed as a result. West needs to stay out, imo.
Tokyo-Saint Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Another Chamberlain moment, the West should and has to act. Just to be clear, what action do you suggest?
Sour Mash Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Another Chamberlain moment, the West should and has to act. Like when we sold him to Arsenal?
derry Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 FFS it's easy, send half a dozen aircraft carriers into the Black Sea and invade through Germany with 2m troops and 10k tanks supported by 5k aircraft I thought it was obvious what we have to do, stay out of it.
Window Cleaner Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 FFS it's easy, send half a dozen aircraft carriers into the Black Sea and invade through Germany with 2m troops and 10k tanks supported by 5k aircraft I thought it was obvious what we have to do, stay out of it. Staying out of it seems to be the right thing to do really. We only really know what the Ukranian "rebels" want us to know. Wasn't the scenario of Crimson Tide based on a similar situation ?
Barry Sanchez Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Just to be clear, what action do you suggest? We should right anything off at the moment, do you advocate not doing anything whilst the possible slaughter and loss of land of Ukranians goes on?
Barry Sanchez Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 If you learn one thing from Chamberlain, it's that you should never put your foreign policy in the hands of another country. We emboldened the Poles by "guaranteeing" them safety. This made them intransigent and truculent in dealings with Hitler, and were destroyed as a result. West needs to stay out, imo. Chamberlain sold them out by giving them a guarantee not observed, he was also naive in his thinking that Hitler would not continue his advance, the writing was on the wall after the testing in Spain, still we did nothing.
JoeShmoe Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Realpolitik will of course win out in all of this. Maybe it will bring into sharp focus the fallacy of the West continuing to operate in disarming mode
pap Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 We should right anything off at the moment, do you advocate not doing anything whilst the possible slaughter and loss of land of Ukranians goes on? C'mon now. Tokes asked you a very simple (and worryingly sensible) question on what shape you believe Western action should take. Give him your answer, not more questions.
Bearsy Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 We should right anything off at the moment, do you advocate not doing anything whilst the possible slaughter and loss of land of Ukranians goes on? possible slaughter and loss of land is happening everywhere, including Torquay and Norwich. I will hold off for actual slaughter. Edit: soz thought i was logged in on my tokyos account
pap Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Chamberlain sold them out by giving them a guarantee not observed, he was also naive in his thinking that Hitler would not continue his advance, the writing was on the wall after the testing in Spain, still we did nothing. The guarantee was observed, in the sense that we declared war over the issue. The key dispute between Germany and Poland was the future of Danzig and the Polish corridor. Chamberlain should never have given the guarantee; there was no practical means to enforce it - neither the French nor the English had any means of defending Poland in a land war, as circumstances showed very shortly afterward. The right thing to do would have been to leave Poland to organise her own protection, same as it is here.
Tokyo-Saint Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 We should right anything off at the moment, do you advocate not doing anything whilst the possible slaughter and loss of land of Ukranians goes on? So do something but just not sure what yet, don't right anything off. Not sure what but it should be done right away. Ok, I'll have a word right away.
Window Cleaner Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 The guarantee was observed, in the sense that we declared war over the issue. The key dispute between Germany and Poland was the future of Danzig and the Polish corridor. Chamberlain should never have given the guarantee; there was no practical means to enforce it - neither the French nor the English had any means of defending Poland in a land war, as circumstances showed very shortly afterward. The right thing to do would have been to leave Poland to organise her own protection, same as it is here. Exactly this is a dispute between 'Russian' ethnies over warm water military bases, let the buggers sort themselves out because I certainly wouldn't want some of those Ukranian pseudo polticians in charge of anything dangerous.
Tokyo-Saint Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 possible slaughter and loss of land is happening everywhere, including Torquay and Norwich. I will hold off for actual slaughter. Edit: soz thought i was logged in on my tokyos account Weasel!
Barry Sanchez Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 (edited) The guarantee was observed, in the sense that we declared war over the issue. The key dispute between Germany and Poland was the future of Danzig and the Polish corridor. Chamberlain should never have given the guarantee; there was no practical means to enforce it - neither the French nor the English had any means of defending Poland in a land war, as circumstances showed very shortly afterward. The right thing to do would have been to leave Poland to organise her own protection, same as it is here. Pap he gave the guarantee, said peace in our time and them let them burn. They are the facts, never let an opinion get in the way of a fact. Edited 3 March, 2014 by Barry Sanchez
Tokyo-Saint Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Or a question get in the way of an answer. Come on Barry, what should the western leaders do right now? You were demanding action, what action do you want?
Barry Sanchez Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 I have just been told there is a frigate sailing towards Costa Blanca after Tom Withenright got a slap of a Spanish market seller for nicking pickled onions in Benidorm.....................
Barry Sanchez Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Or a question get in the way of an answer. Come on Barry, what should the western leaders do right now? You were demanding action, what action do you want? Sanctions and visa restrictions firstly.
Window Cleaner Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 I have just been told there is a frigate sailing towards Costa Blanca after Tom Withenright got a slap of a Spanish market seller for nicking pickled onions in Benidorm..................... Gonna be choppy ride then. Wind and wuthering in the Atlantic just now.
pap Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Pap he gave the guarantee, said peace in our time and them let them burn. They are the facts, never let an opinion get in the way of a fact. I think you're mixing a few things up there. "Peace in our time" was uttered after Chamberlain returned from Munich in 1938, having negotiated away the Sudetenland (Czechoslovakia) to the Germans. The Anglo-Polish military alliance was concluded around six months later.
Tokyo-Saint Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Sanctions and visa restrictions firstly. Complete sanctions? As in we cut off our (Europe's) main energy supplier in order to put the squeeze on a self sufficient country? Who's visa would you restrict and to where? This is getting messy already Barry.
Window Cleaner Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Complete sanctions? As in we cut off our (Europe's) main energy supplier in order to put the squeeze on a self sufficient country? Who's visa would you restrict and to where? This is getting messy already Barry. Well we could stop them coming here and funding football clubs, that would do no end of wonders for our economy wouldn't it. In fact that's the solution, we should nationalise Chelsea, don't know if the UK economy would stand up to pouring millions into them though.
dubai_phil Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Clearly you lot bloody started this. Allowing Clarkson & his mates to invade Crimea a couple of weeks ago would be enough to provoke anyone. Difficult one overall though, yes Crimea was given to Ukraine back in '54 and has a majority of ethnic Russians. Of course that was only possible because of the ethnic cleansing of the Tartars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars Soviet policies on the peninsula led to widespread starvation in 1921.[citation needed] Food was confiscated for shipment to central Russia, while more than 100,000 Tatars starved to death, and tens of thousands fled to Turkey or Romania.[28] Thousands more were deported or slaughtered during the collectivization in 1928–29.[28] The government campaign led to another famine in 1931–33. No other Soviet nationality suffered the decline imposed on the Crimean Tatars; between 1917 and 1933 half the Crimean Tatar population had been killed or deported.[28] During World War II, the entire Crimean Tatar population in Crimea fell victim to Soviet policies. Although a great number of Crimean Tatar men served in the Red Army and took part in the partisan movement in Crimea during the war, the existence of the Tatar Legion in the Nazi army and the collaboration of Crimean Tatar religious and political leaders with Hitler during the German occupation of Crimea provided the Soviets with a pretext for accusing the whole Crimean Tatar population of being Nazi collaborators. Modern researchers also point to the fact that a further reason was the geopolitical position of Crimea where Crimean Tatars were perceived as a threat.[29] This belief is based in part on an analogy with numerous other cases of deportations of non-Russians from boundary territories (see, e.g., Involuntary settlements in the Soviet Union), as well as the fact that other non-Russian populations, such as Greeks, Armenians and Bulgarians were also removed from Crimea.[citation needed] All Crimean Tatars were deported en masse, in a form of collective punishment, on 18 May 1944 as "special settlers" to Uzbek Soviet Socialist Republic and other distant parts of the Soviet Union.[30] The decree "On Crimean Tatars" describes the resettlement as a very humane procedure. The reality described by the victims in their memoirs was different. 46.3% of the resettled population died of diseases and malnutrition.[citation needed] This event is called Sürgün in the Crimean Tatar language. Many of them were re-located to toil as indentured workers in the Soviet GULAG system.[31] Needs some very calm heads and avoidance of soundbites - THAT is gonna be hard for UK Politicos. Oh and Goddamit, Alpine was right. He HAS been going on and on and on about Defence Reviews, where are all our Tanks these days?
Bearsy Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Well we could stop them coming here and funding football clubs, that would do no end of wonders for our economy wouldn't it. only do visa restrictions on the poor people then. Simples.
Barry Sanchez Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Complete sanctions? As in we cut off our (Europe's) main energy supplier in order to put the squeeze on a self sufficient country? Who's visa would you restrict and to where? This is getting messy already Barry. The US could do an awful lot, your suggestion is to do nothing as Putin can do it we will just let him, that has happened before and look where it got us. How much oil and gas do we actually get from Russia?
pap Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Oh and Goddamit, Alpine was right. He HAS been going on and on and on about Defence Reviews, where are all our Tanks these days? More to the point, who the f**k thought it would be a good idea to throw our lot in with the French?
derry Posted 3 March, 2014 Posted 3 March, 2014 Sanctions and visa restrictions firstly. That'll work. We won't take any gas from the pipeline the Russians will cut off or the Ukrainians will block. I thought we had visa restrictions for non EU countries already. The bull****ting politicians will have their bluff called by the Russians who don't do politics. The veto will take care of the UN. The US will file it in the too difficult to deal with drawer. I'm sure the EU commission will deal with it, after all they ****ed the Russians off by suggesting closer ties
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