Ukraine

[SuperMikey]

I like the thought that if we all get drafted, it will just be Alpine here on his own, angrily responding to his own incendiary posts.

[Batman]

Kind of funny how the yanks are telling the Russians that invading another country is like going back to the 19th century

[pap]

Kind of funny how the yanks are telling the Russians that invading another country is like going back to the 19th century

 

Especially since one of their big threats was "we'll bomb you back to the Stone Age".

[Halo Stickman]

Would things have been different if Ukraine hadn’t given up the nuclear weapons it inherited from the Soviet Union?

[TopGun]

Stock market will be interesting this week.

[TopGun]

Crimea was part of the Russian Soviet Republic until 1954 when it was transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Republic so ended up as part of an independent Ukraine in 1991as an accident really.

[Saintandy666]

Nice to see the Sun taking things seriously...

 

[alpine_saint]

Crimea was part of the Russian Soviet Republic until 1954 when it was transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Republic so ended up as part of an independent Ukraine in 1991as an accident really.

 

Yes, Khrushchev pushed Crimea into Ukraine to mark some sort of tricenntenary celebration (dont know what for). Allowing Russia to annex Ukraine unequivocally represents the peaceful solution, but its not exaclty based in principle and sends a dangerous message to Putin in the way Czechoslovakia sent Hitler a similar message.

 

Personally, I think if this goes tits-up, Russia may well get permanent control of Crimea and a bit further into Eastern Ukraine, but they will get one f*ck of a bloody nose. I didnt realsie just how big the Ukrainian Army and Navy is until this morning. This isnt Georgia Mk. 2. In addition, their economic relationship with most of the world will be totally buggered.

 

Putin has taken a gamble that the West and Ukraine will capitulate; he's probably right about the West, but he might have bitten off more than he can chew with Ukraine.

[Whitey Grandad]

Yes, Khrushchev pushed Crimea into Ukraine to mark some sort of tricenntenary celebration (dont know what for). Allowing Russia to annex Ukraine unequivocally represents the peaceful solution, but its not exaclty based in principle and sends a dangerous message to Putin in the way Czechoslovakia sent Hitler a similar message.

 

Personally, I think if this goes tits-up, Russia may well get permanent control of Crimea and a bit further into Eastern Ukraine, but they will get one f*ck of a bloody nose. I didnt realsie just how big the Ukrainian Army and Navy is until this morning. This isnt Georgia Mk. 2. In addition, their economic relationship with most of the world will be totally buggered.

 

Putin has taken a gamble that the West and Ukraine will capitulate; he's probably right about the West, but he might have bitten off more than he can chew with Ukraine.

 

We spent a day in Crimea and another in Odessa on a cruise a few years ago. We visited Sevastopol and Balaclava where we went round what had been a top-secret underground nuclear submarine base. The guide, whose husband was a lieutenant in the submarine service, said that on the break up of the Soviet Union there were over 300 submarines to share out. Ukraine got one. She also said that they were very pleased that Russia wanted to continue to use Sevastopol as its naval base because of the importance to their economy.

[buctootim]

Yes, Khrushchev pushed Crimea into Ukraine to mark some sort of tricenntenary celebration (dont know what for). Allowing Russia to annex Ukraine unequivocally represents the peaceful solution, but its not exaclty based in principle and sends a dangerous message to Putin in the way Czechoslovakia sent Hitler a similar message.

 

Personally, I think if this goes tits-up, Russia may well get permanent control of Crimea and a bit further into Eastern Ukraine, but they will get one f*ck of a bloody nose. I didnt realsie just how big the Ukrainian Army and Navy is until this morning. This isnt Georgia Mk. 2. In addition, their economic relationship with most of the world will be totally buggered.

 

Putin has taken a gamble that the West and Ukraine will capitulate; he's probably right about the West, but he might have bitten off more than he can chew with Ukraine.

 

Ukraine is only one third of the population of Russia and is almost bankrupt, there is no way they can win militarily. The Crimea is ethnically about 50% Russian and Putin can take it and hold it. I guess he has calculated it will win him support at home and that sanctions wont hurt Russia much because they essentially export commodities like oil and gas - and someone will always pay the market rate for those. It will make Russia much more isolated again though - maybe that also suits his agenda.

[Barry Sanchez]

The Russians have no right to be there, why are they "protecting" Ukranian citizens?

[Tokyo-Saint]

Cause he does what he wants Barry.

 

[Barry Sanchez]

Ukraine is only one third of the population of Russia and is almost bankrupt, there is no way they can win militarily. The Crimea is ethnically about 50% Russian and Putin can take it and hold it. I guess he has calculated it will win him support at home and that sanctions wont hurt Russia much because they essentially export commodities like oil and gas - and someone will always pay the market rate for those. It will make Russia much more isolated again though - maybe that also suits his agenda.

 

If the West stops buying Russias oil then they will be bankrupt very quickly indeed.

[Tokyo-Saint]

And we will be in the cold and dark.

[Minsk]

NATO will do f**k all. Russia will annexe the Crimea to ensure a warm water port and perhaps the whole eastern part of Ukraine.

 

I am pretty certain the outcome of this will either be Crimea going back into Russian hands (like Ossetia) or becoming its own, new, nation - although probably only recognised as such by the Russian Federation.

 

If Russia does indeed decide to annex the Crimea, as looks distinctly possible this morning, then they will surely not face any real military opposition from the west in that eventuality. Russia is still a nuclear superpower afterall, therefore the prospect of the US 7th Fleet deploying into the Black Sea anytime soon is completely out of the question I would hope. I would also hope that recovering the Crimea (a traditional Russian not Ukrainian enclave) is the limit of Putin's territorial ambitions.

 

A free and open referendum by all the people of the Crimea on whether they desire to be a part of Russia or the Ukraine may provide a acceptable way out of this mess if that could be agreed.

 

However if Russia invades then the US will insure that Putin pays a heavy price all right, but the usual diplomatic protests aside, the EU is distinctly limited in the meaningful options it has available because of this continent's dependence upon Russian natural gas supplies. This is a unavoidable consequence of pursuing a energy supply policy that places your security in the hands of potentially hostile foreign leaders, leaders who may not share our libertarian world view or set of humanitarian values.

 

Developing viable alternatives to the traditional fossil fuel technologies that our economies still largely depend upon is not just a environmental priority - it's a national security interest too.

 

Crimea was due to have a referendum based on giving it even greater autonomy than it already had (which was considerable) some time in May. This has been moved forward to the end of March. It could well be that this referendum could be further changed to give the the vote for a complete break-away from Ukraine - with or without the addition of them becoming part of Russia.

 

Closest we have come to a neo-Fascist revolution in Europe. Two of the biggest players in the street fighting were the Right Wing Svoboda Party and the Bandera UPA a militant group of Ukrainian Fascists. You only have to browse photos of the fighting to see Celtic Cross ,Wolfshook and the Black and Red horizontal flags to prove it.

My favorite moment was on BBC News when they were going on about the "peaceful protesters" when a guy wearing full uniform of the Ukranian Galician Waffen SS Division walked past.

 

This is how it is being reported in this (pro-Russian) part of the world.

[Barry Sanchez]

And we will be in the cold and dark.

 

Would we?

[Tokyo-Saint]

Well either that or we (the UK alone not the west) have to get 20 million tuns of coal out of Wales and Yorkshire again, year after year and pretty quickly. The rest of the west will have to do similar and then hope that someone like China doesn't just buy it from Russia anyway.

[pap]

If the West stops buying Russias oil then they will be bankrupt very quickly indeed.

 

Never heard of autarky, dune?

[Minsk]

We spent a day in Crimea and another in Odessa on a cruise a few years ago. We visited Sevastopol and Balaclava where we went round what had been a top-secret underground nuclear submarine base. The guide, whose husband was a lieutenant in the submarine service, said that on the break up of the Soviet Union there were over 300 submarines to share out. Ukraine got one. She also said that they were very pleased that Russia wanted to continue to use Sevastopol as its naval base because of the importance to their economy.

 

I usually spend about 3 weeks every summer in the Crimea, sometimes 4, last year just the 2. I have also been to that ex-submarine base (it was a must do for an ex-RN SONAR operator). There is no doubt that the economy of the entire Crimea is hugely dependant on Russia - mostly through tourism.

 

Crimea is, I would say, made up of about 80% Russian ethnicity. Virtually all the people there see themselves as much Russian as Ukrainian. The Crimea was only given to Ukraine in the 50's. This would never have happened had they thought the Soviet Union would one day break-up.

 

I really don't believe, and whole heartedly there won't be, any military conflict over this. There is not a legal government in Ukraine. The ones in power now have not been democratically voted in. I don't think this can be resolved until there has been an election there. A referendum will be held in Crimea before that; there nay have to be another one after too.

 

The only thing that really concerns me about this entire affair is that I absolutely love going to the Crimea. As part of Ukraine there is no requirement for me to get a visa to go there. If it comes under Russia, then I will need one. And the Russians do, deliberately, make it difficult for UK nationals to obtain visas when outside of the UK. (A member of staff of their embassy here admitted as much to me when I tried getting a visa to go to Moscow. He said it was to reciprocate the way the UK authorities treat Russians/Belarusians when applying for visas.) To be fair though, they didn't take any money from me until I had jumped through all of their hoops and had produced enough paperwork for him to say I would be granted the visa. Unlike our government, who take the money then keep it when a visa is refused.

 

So, I think my summers are going to be a bit buggered up from now on. This coming one, most certainly!!

Edited 3 March, 2014 by Minsk
Somehow had too many quotes

[Tokyo-Saint]

They can't survive on dog food exports alone Pap.

 

 

Also, Germany gets most of it's natural gas from Russia, I can't see them cancelling that deal. Not to mention the massive deal China signed in 2011.

[pap]

They can't survive on dog food exports alone Pap.

 

 

Also, Germany gets most of it's natural gas from Russia, I can't see them cancelling that deal. Not to mention the massive deal China signed in 2011.

 

We're dealing with a true world power here. Sure, the West may stop buying Russian energy, but as you say, it's doubtful.

 

China is having to invest deep in Africa to get what it needs. The US is going around invading countries to keep its economy going. Russia has pretty much everything it needs within its own borders, and unlike the US, realises that.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Plus in the nicest possible way, they generally don't give a **** and just do what they want. If Barry thinks people are going to stop buying their power, he is living on anther planet. We are all power junkies and they are the biggest dealers around.

[pap]

Plus in the nicest possible way, they generally don't give a **** and just do what they want. If Barry thinks people are going to stop buying their power, he is living on anther planet. We are all power junkies and they are the biggest dealers around.

 

Oh aye; they're provocative buggers, and can afford to be. Leaving aside the current day obsession with energy (and you really shouldn't), they're still the largest country on the planet in terms of landmass, and have a long history of coming out on top in wars. They did the bulk of the European fighting in WW2; we'd never have won without them.

[Barry Sanchez]

Never heard of autarky, dune?

 

Yes I have Burp.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Many would say that we didn't actually win Pap. If you take into account the reason for us entering the war in the first place was to protect Poland (therefore the goal of Britian and France entering the war would be to liberate Poland). The fact that by the end of the war Poland along with half of Eastern Europe was under Russian control and we were bankrupt, we did little better than protect ourselves and keep our spot on the child's chair at the top table.

[badgerx16]

The Russians have no right to be there, why are they "protecting" Ukranian citizens?

 

Because their view is that they are protecting ethnic Russians from a western induced coup-d'etat that has deposed a legitimately elected ( pro-Russian ) Government. Russia's constitution enables them to take any action necessary to protect ethnic Russians wherever they may be.

[Barry Sanchez]

Because their view is that they are protecting ethnic Russians from a western induced coup-d'etat that has deposed a legitimately elected ( pro-Russian ) Government. Russia's constitution enables them to take any action necessary to protect ethnic Russians wherever they may be.

 

It does when it suits them, Georgia etc etc but Khrushchev gave it away to Ukraine, before that Stalin kicked out and killed the Muslim Taters, it should be a democratic vote nothing more nothing less concerning leaving Ukraine. Russia has no right to be there.

[Barry Sanchez]

Many would say that we didn't actually win Pap. If you take into account the reason for us entering the war in the first place was to protect Poland (therefore the goal of Britian and France entering the war would be to liberate Poland). The fact that by the end of the war Poland along with half of Eastern Europe was under Russian control and we were bankrupt, we did little better than protect ourselves and keep our spot on the child's chair at the top table.

 

Fascism was defeated but Communism won in the East, Churchill was right all along.

[pap]

Many would say that we didn't actually win Pap. If you take into account the reason for us entering the war in the first place was to protect Poland (therefore the goal of Britian and France entering the war would be to liberate Poland). The fact that by the end of the war Poland along with half of Eastern Europe was under Russian control and we were bankrupt, we did little better than protect ourselves and keep our spot on the child's chair at the top table.

 

Well, you can definitely say the Russians won. The US did too.

 

Seventy years later, Germany dominates Europe

 

Us? Don't think it was a victory. We lost the Empire, the position of sterling as the world's top currency and by implication, a huge protectionist market for British goods and services.

 

Chamberlain tried to avoid war at almost all costs, yet he is cast as the simpering appeaser, whereas Churchill, who handed over large parts of Eastern Europe to Stalin and cost us nearly everything we had on the world stage, is feted as a hero.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Fascism was defeated but Communism won in the East, Churchill was right all along.

 

Yeah but we didn't actually enter the war to defeat fascism, this came later as a reason for entering the war.

 

Well, you can definitely say the Russians won. The US did too.

 

Seventy years later, Germany dominates Europe

 

Us? Don't think it was a victory. We lost the Empire, the position of sterling as the world's top currency and by implication, a huge protectionist market for British goods and services.

 

Chamberlain tried to avoid war at almost all costs, yet he is cast as the simpering appeaser, whereas Churchill, who handed over large parts of Eastern Europe to Stalin and cost us nearly everything we had on the world stage, is feted as a hero.

 

I agree

[Barry Sanchez]

Well, you can definitely say the Russians won. The US did too.

 

Seventy years later, Germany dominates Europe

 

Us? Don't think it was a victory. We lost the Empire, the position of sterling as the world's top currency and by implication, a huge protectionist market for British goods and services.

 

Chamberlain tried to avoid war at almost all costs, yet he is cast as the simpering appeaser, whereas Churchill, who handed over large parts of Eastern Europe to Stalin and cost us nearly everything we had on the world stage, is feted as a hero.

 

Chamberlain was cast as a yellow man simply because of his vanity in not wanting to lead Britain into war, that cost 1000's of peoples lives both here and abroad as he could not accpet Hitler would continue, Hore-Belisha and Churchill were saying about this a long time before it happened, both for different reasons but both equally correct. Chamberlain bottle it.

Edited 3 March, 2014 by Barry Sanchez

[Barry Sanchez]

Yeah but we didn't actually enter the war to defeat fascism, this came later as a reason for entering the war.

 

 

 

I agree

 

I suggest you learn more about the period then.

[Barry Sanchez]

People frantically googling subject matter to appear like they know what they are on about.

[buctootim]

Chamberlain was cast as a yellow man simply because of his vanity in not wanting to lead Britain into war, that cost 1000's of peoples lives both here and abroad as he could not accpet Hitler would continue, Hore-Belisha and Churchill were saying about this a long time before it happened, both for different reasons but both equally correct. Chamberlain bottle it.

 

Chamberlain appeased whilst re-arming Britain. What would you have done differently - gone to war two years earlier using WW1 ships, planes and guns and without the support of France?

[pap]

People frantically googling subject matter to appear like they know what they are on about.

 

Speak for yourself, kidda.

 

I Google'd f**k all for my comments. There's this thing called "reading books" that some of us do, often to the detriment of post counts on here.

[Barry Sanchez]

Chamberlain appeased whilst re-arming Britain. What would you have done differently - gone to war two years earlier using WW1 ships, planes and guns and without the support of France?

 

How quickly did Germany re arm? I would have also not allowed German forces to re arm as they did, support of France go on?

[Barry Sanchez]

Speak for yourself, kidda.

 

I Google'd f**k all for my comments. There's this thing called "reading books" that some of us do, often to the detriment of post counts on here.

 

Burp the last time a World War thread came up concerning tanks you copied and pasted everything simply to stay in the conversation, you got whalloped on that one:lol:

[badgerx16]

.... and killed the Muslim Taters,.....

 

Did he use them for halal chips ?

[Tokyo-Saint]

Yep, Barry handing out the insults without actually knowing much about the subject himself. I take it that comment was aimed at me Barry? My knowledge of the period goes a little beyond the jingoistic crap fed to post war school kids you spout out.

 

The truth is the majority of Britain including most in power were not anti fascist before the war. The people in power in the UK including the monarchy were much more worried about communism and bolshevism spreading and them losing grip of power.

[badgerx16]

It does when it suits them, Georgia etc etc but Khrushchev gave it away to Ukraine, before that Stalin kicked out and killed the Muslim Tartars, it should be a democratic vote nothing more nothing less concerning leaving Ukraine. Russia has no right to be there.

 

But both Kruschev and Stalin where working on the basis of a unified USSR - an independent Ukraine wasn't a consideration in the 1950s, that only became possible post-Gorbachev. As for the democratic vote - the last election in Ukraine elected a pro-Russian Government, and the Crimea is due it's own vote in a couple of months - when the nearly 2/3rds ethnic Russian majority will get their way.

[Barry Sanchez]

But both Kruschev and Stalin where working on the basis of a unified USSR - an independent Ukraine wasn't a consideration in the 1950s, that only became possible post-Gorbachev. As for the democratic vote - the last election in Ukraine elected a pro-Russian Government, and the Crimea is due it's own vote in a couple of months - when the nearly 2/3rds ethnic Russian majority will get their way.

 

Then why is Russia invading now? I have no issue if Crimea democratically cedes from Ukraine, democracy must stand, Stalin evicted 1000's and the demographic would look very different to how it is now, they are returning in their numbers and the Ethnic Russians are at loggerheads over land with them, could this be the reason?

[badgerx16]

Then why is Russia invading now? I have no issue if Crimea democratically cedes from Ukraine, democracy must stand, Stalin evicted 1000's and the demographic would look very different to how it is now, they are returning in their numbers and the Ethnic Russians are at loggerheads over land with them, could this be the reason?

 

As I stated above, Russia's position is that it is protecting it's interests and the ethnic Russian majority from a western instigated coup against the democratically elected Government of Ukraine. The broader picture almost certainly includes continued access to naval and air bases on the Black Sea.

[Barry Sanchez]

As I stated above, Russia's position is that it is protecting it's interests and the ethnic Russian majority from a western instigated coup against the democratically elected Government of Ukraine. The broader picture almost certainly includes continued access to naval and air bases on the Black Sea.

 

Ethnic Russian is the word you should be using, it makes no difference they are Ukranian and Ukranian territory has be violated by Russians being where they should not be,no law they have passed is relevant in this invasion, they are protecting no one, where has any bloodshed been in the Crimea?

[Tokyo-Saint]

As I stated above, Russia's position is that it is protecting it's interests and the ethnic Russian majority from a western instigated coup against the democratically elected Government of Ukraine. The broader picture almost certainly includes continued access to naval and air bases on the Black Sea.

 

Ethnic Russian is the word you should be using, it makes no difference they are Ukranian and Ukranian territory has be violated by Russians being where they should not be,no law they have passed is relevant in this invasion, they are protecting no one, where has any bloodshed been in the Crimea?

 

Confused.

[Barry Sanchez]

Confused.

 

Sorry I thought you refered to them as Russians, did not read properly.

[pap]

Sorry I thought you refered to them as Russians, did not read properly.

 

Ha.

 

"Thought"

[Barry Sanchez]

Ha.

 

"Thought"

 

Do you ever contribute anything remotely interesting?

[aintforever]

Speak for yourself, kidda.

 

I Google'd f**k all for my comments. There's this thing called "reading books" that some of us do, often to the detriment of post counts on here.

 

LOL, from the person who thought Lee Rigby's murder was one big false flag staged by the government.

 

"look at the hands, the hands!, where's the blood?!"

[pap]

LOL, from the person who thought Lee Rigby's murder was one big false flag staged by the government.

 

"look at the hands, the hands!, where's the blood?!"

 

Back on this, are we?

 

Let me know the next (first?) time you have an opinion of your own. I'll dismantle it if and when.

[aintforever]

Back on this, are we?

 

Let me know the next (first?) time you have an opinion of your own. I'll dismantle it if and when.

 

Of course you can.

 

How's your Boston bombing false flag theory getting on?