The club is no longer run FOR the fans...............

[Frank's cousin]

So basically Frank you are saying the fans are irrelevant?

 

Not at all FF, just questioning the need of fans to feel that they are...

[Wade Garrett]

yea I agree with this, esp the overlapping bit but aren't we becoming subservient? Just asking. Should we not be a bit more vocal in what we want. Our devotion to the Liebherrs is a bit nauseating tbh

 

Devotion is a bit harsh Duncan. Gratitude would be more appropriate.

 

Personally, my anger at going out of the cup is directed more at the players performance and attitude of some, rather than the owners or manager. Fact is, the side Pochettino put out should have been more than capable of beating a virtual Sunderland reserve side.

[trousers]

FF, there is a huge amount of emotive rhetoric spouted when folks discuss clubs, owners, etc. Reality is that when you let go of all that baggage and just accept the club owes us nothing... And see it for what it us, a game, a club we CHOSE to support for our own enjoyment, it's a lot easier to enjoy it.

 

I went 'down' to SOL as one of the 800 odd and as all was disappointed with the performance... We looked tired and heavy footed - and an alternative viewpoint might be that be that an attempt was made to freshen things up... Crap drive home, but the hysterical nonsense on here, fuelled by our 2or 3 resident trolls is comical as it is expected.

 

Thank feck this site is not reflective of the majority of fans, just the plaything for a few saddos with nothing else to do, who take such delight in spreading their 'opinion'.

 

The eh club always has and always will make decisions they believe tone in their best interests- some will resonate with fans others will anger them... It's always been like that. Seriously, when the is accepted, we can get on with our part in this, supporting and hopefully enjoying it... It is after all our choice and it's meant to be fun...

 

This

[Goalie66]

Why? It's what I think. I have enjoyed the last five years and been very proud this season but I still feel the fans are way down the food chain these days. It is the same almost everywhere else too I accept. Will it change? No I guess not but I am not going to sit back and say it is wonderful being owned by the Liebherr company just because we have had five good years. For me it would be a lot greater if the fans were at least listened to when it comes to things like design of the kit. We are continually told how much the players value our support especially at away matches but this support is sometimes a one way street as we saw on Saturday. Do you think Pochettino spent one second considering the away fans at the Stadium of Light?

 

No fans should not have seats on the board and no clubs should not be run for the fans but the fans' views need to be respected in certain areas.

 

Agreed . The danger is disenfranchisement. If a customer does not feel valued or has poor communication with a supplier he eventuallly goes elswhere. As a fan you cannot divorce the football team you support but you can take other actions such as:

 

1. Stop attending matches altogether

2. Go to selected matches

3. Stay at home and watch streams

 

Now in today's market this will not make a great deal of difference to the income stream of a Premier League Club but eventually it will as advertisers do not like empty stadiums and as with all "bubbles" the premier league model is unsustainable .

 

That said I am still mightily pi..ed off with Saturday especially as I was one of the 850.

Edited 17 February, 2014 by Goalie66
spelling

[benjii]

And I think that is where it all started going downhill as far as fan's are concerned. I guess it is evolution or progress but I don't agree with it hence the OP.

 

But it took a cup defeat to figure it out?

 

If Lambert hadn't missed that complete sitter would you still be none the wiser?!

 

I think most people knew this about ten years ago, TBF. Maybe a football historian could shed some light?!

[david in sweden]

My following of the club did not begin through knowing anything about who owned it, as I became an adult (ish) I became more aware and developed genune concerns that we were being run in a way that I could also still not give a sh*t about who owned it.

 

That all changed when it looked like we may have lost the club for good...for the first time I may not have had a club, I could no more switch affections than remove my own legs so I became grateful to a man called Liebherr and the man who directed him toward St Mary's. Once this was done I could then continue my love affair (as deeply illogical as any other love affair) with my club...and enjoyed the ride as much as any time during my 50+ years of supporting.

 

My point is - the club, the team that I follow can wear pink,drop leagues, lose the odd away cup game even but they'll always be 'my' team and that is not going to change. The game itself has changed enormously, we no longer play at The Dell, everything about the experience has changed...but my feeling for Southampton FC hasn't. Yes, I could be ripe for exploitation it could be argued - happy to be so as long as I have 'my' club.

 

I feel like going to West Ham.

 

 

well said Dronski . Those fans who want constant success should have been born in North London or Manchester. I'm proud to have been born a Sotonian - even when we were in L1.

[Greenridge]

But it took a cup defeat to figure it out?

 

If Lambert hadn't missed that complete sitter would you still be none the wiser?!

 

I think most people knew this about ten years ago, TBF. Maybe a football historian could shed some light?!

 

^ This.

 

Not even a week ago after beating Hull comprehensively everything was rosey yet 4 days later after a very poor performance and a missed sitter we have a forum (and Club apparently) in the process of meltdown. Fickle.

[Sour Mash]

well said Dronski . Those fans who want constant success should have been born in North London or Manchester. I'm proud to have been born a Sotonian - even when we were in L1.

It's not about necessarily wanting constant success, it's questioning what modern football feels like for many fans, that it is more about exploiting loyal fans who will put up with anything than genuine enjoyment of a sport. It is a pity,I don't see how anyone can think otherwise?

[Turkish]

FF, there is a huge amount of emotive rhetoric spouted when folks discuss clubs, owners, etc. Reality is that when you let go of all that baggage and just accept the club owes us nothing... And see it for what it us, a game, a club we CHOSE to support for our own enjoyment, it's a lot easier to enjoy it.

 

I went 'down' to SOL as one of the 800 odd and as all was disappointed with the performance... We looked tired and heavy footed - and an alternative viewpoint might be that be that an attempt was made to freshen things up... Crap drive home, but the hysterical nonsense on here, fuelled by our 2or 3 resident trolls is comical as it is expected.

 

Thank feck this site is not reflective of the majority of fans, just the plaything for a few saddos with nothing else to do, who take such delight in spreading their 'opinion'.

 

The eh club always has and always will make decisions they believe tone in their best interests- some will resonate with fans others will anger them... It's always been like that. Seriously, when the is accepted, we can get on with our part in this, supporting and hopefully enjoying it... It is after all our choice and it's meant to be fun...

 

This. That would mean 90% of our fans are complete bellends who talk a load of sh*t.

[Viking Warrior]

Duncan

 

Like you I was disappointed with the result.

 

However, may I suggest that if you and others want a club run for the fans etc and run by the fans , then can I suggest we take a leaf out of that very succesfull club down the road in skatesville

 

We lose a game and some folk are planning a revolution.

 

Im more than pleased with the way the club is being run, , Its the best its been for many a year

 

I totallly disagree with you Duncan we are not being played like pawns.

and I thing you odff the mark when you say no one as listening to the fans

 

Can I remind you. You are now once again allowed to sell books in the club shop

 

Francis benali is allowed back

 

Check your facts first duncan instead of comming out with a generalisation that fans are not being listened to

[Turkish]

I've been saying for months that players and fans want to win things and that we should try to win the cups. A few months back i was told that this was ridiculous, shouted down and we need to concentrate on the league, we played a weakened team at the league cup game at Sunderland and this was a good thing otherwise it would detract from our push for the champions league. It was champions league or nothing. Now reality has hit home and the fact of the matter is, like some "trolls" said back in october, we aren't going to make the champions league and we will finish midtable then suddenly it's outrageous and disgusting that the club haven't taken the cups seriously.

 

Players and fans want to win thing, they want memorable days out and they want a shot at glory, this is what sport is all about. What it isn't about is settling for midtable at the cost of all else. To those that are happy we went out of the cups meekly i'll ask you this, are we a sports club or a cash cow? In 30 years time do they want to remember the days we played a cup semi final or final at Wembley or do they want to talk about the time we got an extra £2m quid for finishing 7th rather than 12th?

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Duncan

 

Like you I was disappointed with the result.

 

However, may I suggest that if you and others want a club run for the fans etc and run by the fans , then can I suggest we take a leaf out of that very succesfull club down the road in skatesville

 

We lose a game and some folk are planning a revolution.

 

Im more than pleased with the way the club is being run, , Its the best its been for many a year

 

I totallly disagree with you Duncan we are not being played like pawns.

and I thing you odff the mark when you say no one as listening to the fans

 

Can I remind you. You are now once again allowed to sell books in the club shop

 

Francis benali is allowed back

 

Check your facts first duncan instead of comming out with a generalisation that fans are not being listened to

 

 

Bandwagon Bob, your ignorance is breath taking. Firstly I have not said I want a club run for the fans or by the fans just a little more recognition. Please be good enough to actually read what I say before hitching your skirt to the bandwagon of ignorance.

 

No one is talking revolution - you made that up in your own little head, it must be the long dark nights up there.

 

I am really glad you are pleased at the way the club is being run - presumably you are privy to all meetings and decisions or is that just blind faith on your part?

 

Oh and I should be honoured that my book is now being allowed back in the shop, making the club money, adding to the 50 grand that Hagiology books have already made the club. I am so lucky, thank you for pointing that out, I had completely forgotten.

 

Check my facts? - that is rich coming from a twerp like you who can't even type, spell or construct a sentence. You are not related by any chance to that old hag that used to sit at the bottom of the guillotine during the French Revolution cackling every time another head hit the basket?

[Dellman]

FF is not an historian of football, he is far too prejudiced and fickle too if one match gives him such a brainstorm. Other people who do not claim to be historians knew long before this match that the Club (and all others) was run as a business and this one has been run wonderfully well for the last five years. Does FF want a return to the rot that took us down three leagues and to bankruptcy?

[martel]

This is going to be a slightly controversial post, but imo since the Liebherr family took over, the club stopped being run "for the fans". Instead it is run for the good of the "business". Normally the two go hand in hand but occasionally, there are times, like yesterday when there is a conflict of interest or a diversity of ambition.

 

The events at the Stadium of Light have most probably thrown up the most discord on this forum since a Cortese inspired Liebherr bandwagon trampled the flawed Le Tissier dream ticket consortium into oblivion and swept into town to take over. Gawd we were all so grateful. Me included.

 

I said at the time it is great to be rescued and to have real money at our fingertips (and what a five years we have had), but gone forever are the days where the fans priorities and dreams are a priority. Even Lowe had to keep one eye on keeping the fans happy.

 

No one in charge at SMS really genuinely cares about our stripes, our traditions or our history. It remains a money making machine that will be sold or kept according to market forces. The fans dreams and hopes are mere side issues. We are supporting a company who happen to be based in our city and there is no going back.

 

So who is going to Upton Park?

 

I would not disagree with that, but since the conception of the premier league that was the direction that football was always going to go; this is a multi-billion pound business and just like any other corporation it is their to try and make money and if required keep shareholders happy as well, as much as I would have loved to see a good cup run and who knows we may have won it, the question is raised as to whether that is in the best interest of the club, personally I do not believe it would be, as much as that gripes I believe it to be a fact at this moment in time. So how does the club turn this around, first I think we need to keep our current young stars, then over the next year or two we will have more coming through, add to this the top ups from the transfer market so as to have a squad of players that can cover every position, that way we can compete in the premiership and go for cup competitions at the same time without placing our premiership position in jeopardy,like all of you I am gutted about last Saturday,however, due to the revenue the premiership offers I do not see another way around this financial trap, unless one of you have a better suggestion of course.

[Goalie66]

FF is not an historian of football, he is far too prejudiced and fickle too if one match gives him such a brainstorm. Other people who do not claim to be historians knew long before this match that the Club (and all others) was run as a business and this one has been run wonderfully well for the last five years. Does FF want a return to the rot that took us down three leagues and to bankruptcy?

 

It is now Monday so quite a lot of time has elapsed from saturday. I think FF has hit the nail on the head with the sentiment of many fans after that display by both team and management that spoke volumes about their priorities which regrettably do not gel with us fans. To those of us who made the effort to go we were given the proverbial two fingers by the club. That is why so many, including me , are still angry. It hurts that we had a great chance of glory. Glory that us fans dream about. Glory of a cup final. Instead we got a urinal performance and the first to the through was the Manager.

 

It was and still is unacceptable.

[Frank's cousin]

 

Players and fans want to win thing, they want memorable days out and they want a shot at glory, this is what sport is all about. What it isn't about is settling for midtable at the cost of all else. To those that are happy we went out of the cups meekly i'll ask you this, are we a sports club or a cash cow? In 30 years time do they want to remember the days we played a cup semi final or final at Wembley or do they want to talk about the time we got an extra £2m quid for finishing 7th rather than 12th?

 

First up I ain't saying it's right... But why all the desire to be part of the prem, with the usual panic merchants saying we would blow promotion... If we don't really like what it's all about. Anyone new on here yesterday would think they had stumbled on a bunch of naive kids who had been on another planet for the past 20 years... The game IS al about money ... And some on here seem only to have just realised this....

 

But it's also about progression. IMHO, P of his carrying on NCs project. Progress in the league is priority...why? Because the actual difference between 12 and 7th will be over 4 mil now, but the difference it makes to how the club is perceived is much more valuable. To the outside, it will be seen that we are the best of the rest... Potentially, we are also seen as attractive bet to push on, if we can keep the best kids and attract 1 or 2 bits of quality.... NC and POCH see that as more important than the cups... We might not like it, but that is their view and the way to progress the club... As mentioned before, when you stop expecting the club to love you back, you are not disappointed that it does not.... Those expecting the 'love' are those who are truly left disappointed....

 

Was a crappy performance by by a group of players that were knackered... But should have been good enough to win. Not for the first time this season, we have failed to convert chances which have cost us... Well surprise surprise, happens at all clubs... That's Ethan take em more often, win things... Not exactly tricky is it... If the 'message' given by POCH to players by his selection wasoneof indifference! then the players still had the opportunity to go for it regardless, if they desired... Too knackered IMHO, and I was there, so saw it all first hand... ****ty day, but hardly something new...

[Window Cleaner]

Just driven past St Mary's.

 

Just watched three members of staff coming out of the Saints shop carrying huge piles of heavy-looking books. Chucked the whole lot into their wheely bins. Before rubbing their hands together and going back inside.

 

Anyone know why?

:rolleyes:

[Greenridge]

Bandwagon Bob, your ignorance is breath taking. Firstly I have not said I want a club run for the fans or by the fans just a little more recognition. Please be good enough to actually read what I say before hitching your skirt to the bandwagon of ignorance.

 

No one is talking revolution - you made that up in your own little head, it must be the long dark nights up there.

 

I am really glad you are pleased at the way the club is being run - presumably you are privy to all meetings and decisions or is that just blind faith on your part?

 

Oh and I should be honoured that my book is now being allowed back in the shop, making the club money, adding to the 50 grand that Hagiology books have already made the club. I am so lucky, thank you for pointing that out, I had completely forgotten.

 

Check my facts? - that is rich coming from a twerp like you who can't even type, spell or construct a sentence. You are not related by any chance to that old hag that used to sit at the bottom of the guillotine during the French Revolution cackling every time another head hit the basket?

 

You managed to throw an insult in every sentence there FF. That could be a new forum record.

[dronskisaint]

FF, there is a huge amount of emotive rhetoric spouted when folks discuss clubs, owners, etc. Reality is that when you let go of all that baggage and just accept the club owes us nothing... And see it for what it us, a game, a club we CHOSE to support for our own enjoyment, it's a lot easier to enjoy it.

 

I went 'down' to SOL as one of the 800 odd and as all was disappointed with the performance... We looked tired and heavy footed - and an alternative viewpoint might be that be that an attempt was made to freshen things up... Crap drive home, but the hysterical nonsense on here, fuelled by our 2or 3 resident trolls is comical as it is expected.

 

Thank feck this site is not reflective of the majority of fans, just the plaything for a few saddos with nothing else to do, who take such delight in spreading their 'opinion'.

 

The eh club always has and always will make decisions they believe tone in their best interests- some will resonate with fans others will anger them... It's always been like that. Seriously, when the is accepted, we can get on with our part in this, supporting and hopefully enjoying it... It is after all our choice and it's meant to be fun...

 

Well reasoned and sensible response from someone who was there at the match...

 

I'm not sure that I chose to support Saints all those years back but it's sure as hell academic now. It's in the blood, we've lived through some amazing ups and downs over the decades I've been going and if I can live through relegations, seeing a n 8-0 and a 7-0 defeat from the stands administration (x 1 only you skatechez tw*ts!), Branfoot's 'football', Lowe's return that can all be balanced against promotion to Div1, Ron Davies scoring 4 at OT, seeing Le Tiss play for 'my' club, '76, promotion, promotion, promotion, JPT, beautiful football - I know what sticks and I know that it will take more than a cup defeat that on another day could easily have gone our way (Villa match!!?) to make it change.

 

It is fun (most of the time ...unless your personality or support of other teams dictates!) :-)

[Giordano]

First of all : I'm afraid I do not buy into the conspiracy theory that Mopo essentially "threw" this match by deliberately playing an understrength team so as to improve chances of taking points at Upton Park.

 

Secondly : I think Mopo could have put out a stronger team, but he misjudged it this time. I don't blame Perez - he is the reserve Manager so he gets his chance in the CC and FA Cup just like the fringe /reserve players do. He and Mopo probably do not understand about the FA cup and why its more important for us to do well in the Cup than finish a marginal place higher or lower in mid table. They chose to give some fringe players the chance, they took a calculated risk.

 

In retrospect, replacing Ads with McQueen was a gamble that failed. In retrospect JWP for Morgan was a gamble that failed as was Guly for Jrod. Three gambles three fails. KD was not so much of a gamble away to Sunderland imo. Jos was always starting after Fontes injury. The rest of the team was plenty strong enough.

 

Overall I would say that this Club, this Manager and this squad don't deserve the current vitriol over what was a simply one misjudged team selection in one game that went wrong in a match settled by a "worldy".

 

As for are the supporters "pawns"- of course we are. I hate it too. But its not necessary (even though it feels in the right zone) to connect it to a misjudged team selection away to Sunderland in the 6th round. Yes it feels like the end of the season, and for some possibly the death knell for this possibly most talented ever of Saints squads which may get dispersed to the winds in the summer, but if we have had our once every decade season-in-the-sun at least we are now recognised the world over for playing great football, in the "Southampton Way". What other supporters outside top four can say that?

Edited 17 February, 2014 by Giordano

[saint michael]

This is going to be a slightly controversial post, but imo since the Liebherr family took over, the club stopped being run "for the fans". Instead it is run for the good of the "business". Normally the two go hand in hand but occasionally, there are times, like yesterday when there is a conflict of interest or a diversity of ambition.

 

The events at the Stadium of Light have most probably thrown up the most discord on this forum since a Cortese inspired Liebherr bandwagon trampled the flawed Le Tissier dream ticket consortium into oblivion and swept into town to take over. Gawd we were all so grateful. Me included.

 

I said at the time it is great to be rescued and to have real money at our fingertips (and what a five years we have had), but gone forever are the days where the fans priorities and dreams are a priority. Even Lowe had to keep one eye on keeping the fans happy.

 

No one in charge at SMS really genuinely cares about our stripes, our traditions or our history. It remains a money making machine that will be sold or kept according to market forces. The fans dreams and hopes are mere side issues. We are supporting a company who happen to be based in our city and there is no going back.

 

So who is going to Upton Park?

 

 

 

 

Duncan, I think you are describing 21st century football in general. The names of the clubs may be the same. The older fans go along believing they still support their club. But everything else has changed.

 

Change is inevitable and we can't go back... Even if you start again you will soon get caught up in the commercial machine. I think we have to accept this and make of the new way what we can. I was really sad about the game Saturday as it makes what I just said more stark. I have always loved the cup and first went along to my first tie in 67..

 

Must be sad for a historian like you but hard not to draw a line under it all

[NickG]

FF, there is a huge amount of emotive rhetoric spouted when folks discuss clubs, owners, etc. Reality is that when you let go of all that baggage and just accept the club owes us nothing... And see it for what it us, a game, a club we CHOSE to support for our own enjoyment, it's a lot easier to enjoy it.

 

I went 'down' to SOL as one of the 800 odd and as all was disappointed with the performance... We looked tired and heavy footed - and an alternative viewpoint might be that be that an attempt was made to freshen things up... Crap drive home, but the hysterical nonsense on here, fuelled by our 2or 3 resident trolls is comical as it is expected.

 

Thank feck this site is not reflective of the majority of fans, just the plaything for a few saddos with nothing else to do, who take such delight in spreading their 'opinion'.

 

The eh club always has and always will make decisions they believe tone in their best interests- some will resonate with fans others will anger them... It's always been like that. Seriously, when the is accepted, we can get on with our part in this, supporting and hopefully enjoying it... It is after all our choice and it's meant to be fun...

A sensible response.

 

I know there are strange views on here at times but this over reaction to a defeat by a single goal away to prem side is amazing. It seems that the cup was guaranteed until MP deliberately through it - you couldn't make it up!

 

Do some posters know who our players are? Do they keep up to date with injuries? Do they remember criticisms they have recently given players?

 

Apart from injuries and the new tradition of having a cup keeper the only player who was dropped surprisingly was Morgan. The same player that people have been moaning has looked off form/ jaded. Replaced by a player (jwp) who fans here, and even on other club forums has been spoken about as international player.

 

I think some need to let result sink in, watch the game again to see misses by Lambert, JWP and Lallana (prob L and L's easiest chances this season) look at team sheet, look at photos of Fontes leg, find a player who played who can't get into first team normally (only Guly and who else replace JayRod when he isn't fit?) See that he brought on best players even when not 100% for half hour to try to win it.

 

I don't get taking Lallana off but that isn't a lack of respect to cup thing, he does it (wrongly IMHO) in 50% of games. Maybe he saw something in the game that McQyeen could exploit? It didn't work.

 

I am accused of being too optimistic and positive (I was planning my Wembley trips ) but it seems others arrogantly thought the cup was ours. We put out a good side.

 

Guess too much sense again for OP and will be written off as waffle but at least this is based on facts.

 

Its not the fans who are being disrespected - it is the club and management - doing great but had the nerve to make a mistake and lose! I thought arsenal were bad booing recently...find this embarrassing.

[OldNick]

Just driven past St Mary's.

 

Just watched three members of staff coming out of the Saints shop carrying huge piles of heavy-looking books. Chucked the whole lot into their wheely bins. Before rubbing their hands together and going back inside.

 

Anyone know why?

Lol, it is amazing a week ago KL and co could do no wrong in FF eyes, they took his book in to the shop, dropped the parking fees and let FB back into the ground. 'We had got our club back', now in a fit of peek due to us going out of the FA cup they have become the devil.

[ecuk268]

The past is another country, Duncan, they do things differently there (apologies to L.P. Hartley).

 

Those of us who grew up watching Saints before football became "corporate" have fond memories of when it appeared that the supporter had more of a connection with the club although I think that there's a touch of rose-tinted glasses here.

 

The ticket office at The Dell always seemed to think that they were doing you a huge favour by selling you a ticket. We put up with the awful toilets and rubbish catering and getting soaked on the terraces because we didn't know any better.

 

Football is now solely a business and the bottom line is what matters to the suits who run the clubs. So, I imaging that a couple of extra league places and the extra cash that brings in is more important than a cup run and a Europa League spot, neither of which generate much income.

 

There's no doubt that the Sky money has brought much better stadia and facilities but at the expense of the connection, real or imagined, that we used to feel with the club.

 

Personally, I regret the loss of red and white stripes and the replacement of the programme sellers with bimbos (no disrespect, ladies), but you pays your money and you takes your choice. One of the few benefits of growing old is experience and, having watched Saints since '58 (my dad used to lift me over the turnstile, couldn't get away with that now), I think that I prefer today.

[OldNick]

 

 

Oh and I should be honoured that my book is now being allowed back in the shop, making the club money, adding to the 50 grand that Hagiology books have already made the club. I am so lucky, thank you for pointing that out, I had completely forgotten.

 

Duncan you keep going on about making the club £50k on book sales, that is chicken feed compared to the clubs finances,

If you stood back and considered you might understand why NC took a stand as as soon as anything goes against your opinion/wishes you do get pretty tetchy. i suspect you will give me a blast but I dont think that your OP is fair and your post to Viking does you any favours. Just my view of course.

Edited 17 February, 2014 by OldNick

[Sour Mash]

A sensible response.

 

I know there are strange views on here at times but this over reaction to a defeat by a single goal away to prem side is amazing. It seems that the cup was guaranteed until MP deliberately through it - you couldn't make it up!

 

Do some posters know who our players are? Do they keep up to date with injuries? Do they remember criticisms they have recently given players?

 

Apart from injuries and the new tradition of having a cup keeper the only player who was dropped surprisingly was Morgan. The same player that people have been moaning has looked off form/ jaded. Replaced by a player (jwp) who fans here, and even on other club forums has been spoken about as international player.

 

I think some need to let result sink in, watch the game again to see misses by Lambert, JWP and Lallana (prob L and L's easiest chances this season) look at team sheet, look at photos of Fontes leg, find a player who played who can't get into first team normally (only Guly and who else replace JayRod when he isn't fit?) See that he brought on best players even when not 100% for half hour to try to win it.

 

I don't get taking Lallana off but that isn't a lack of respect to cup thing, he does it (wrongly IMHO) in 50% of games. Maybe he saw something in the game that McQyeen could exploit? It didn't work.

 

I am accused of being too optimistic and positive (I was planning my Wembley trips ) but it seems others arrogantly thought the cup was ours. We put out a good side.

 

Guess too much sense again for OP and will be written off as waffle but at least this is based on facts.

 

Its not the fans who are being disrespected - it is the club and management - doing great but had the nerve to make a mistake and lose! I thought arsenal were bad booing recently...find this embarrassing.

So you think it was just a coincidence that we happened to change half our team for a cup game? And took off our best player to give a young kid a debut while going for an equaliser? And gave priority to a mid-table clash with Hull over a decent chance of getting on a cup run against Sunderland?

[Lets B Avenue]

So you think it was just a coincidence that we happened to change half our team for a cup game? And took off our best player to give a young kid a debut while going for an equaliser? And gave priority to a mid-table clash with Hull over a decent chance of getting on a cup run against Sunderland?

 

TBF he wasn't remotely close to being our "best player" on Saturday.

[Sour Mash]

TBF he wasn't remotely close to being our "best player" on Saturday.

He was more likely to produce something for us than McQueen was.

[Highfield Saint]

This thread seems to have agreement that the "fans" have either been disrespected or that the club has lost its connection with its "fan base" and I began to speculate on the validity of both these lines of thought and the apparent dichotomy of building a successful club which still has local "fans" at its heart. If you look at the two ends of the spectrum then at one end you have the global brands of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea etc who have a fan base (and their financial foundations secured in this) in the many millions the majority of whom live abroad and never have a hope of attending a game. They support their club, they pay their money when they can whether that be via sky, shirt purchases or otherwise simply support and carry the flag.

 

Are they less of a fan because they are not the traditional fans that we purport to be? We have less of these than the large global brands but I am sure we aspire for more of them. I am sure that many of us think that on signing a Japanese/Korean/Kenyan/Croatian that perhaps we will attract some of the players home country supporters which will add to our momentum of support and drive additional revenues. Is it not hypocritical then to ignore or disenfranchise these supporters in this way?

 

At the other end of the spectrum we have the laughing stock which is that misleading fan owned piece of ***t down the road whose fan and supporter base is locked within a two mile radius of a fish market.

 

We may all prefer for things to be the way we remember them - football in the decade you caught the love - but the world is racing towards a different place and if the choices are as currently set out between us and them then I know which I would prefer.

 

The revenues the club needs to deliver a sound footing at a level of football where it and we aspire for it to be will not come from our gate revenues. The market the club is seeking is Premier League driven. Watanabe san in Osaka doesnt really understand the FA Cup but will support and watch a top premier league team.

 

You can argue that this is a "business" rather than a club being run for the fans but that is, in my view, disrespectful of the fans that subscribe through Sky and other methods of interaction.

 

I go to less games than I used to and am lucky because I can watch on Sky, Bt, internet streaming - just like the guy in Osaka.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

FF is not an historian of football, he is far too prejudiced and fickle too if one match gives him such a brainstorm. Other people who do not claim to be historians knew long before this match that the Club (and all others) was run as a business and this one has been run wonderfully well for the last five years. Does FF want a return to the rot that took us down three leagues and to bankruptcy?

 

Not a historian of football eh - I will point you to a couple of recent independent reviews.

http://www.hagiologists.com/atsrev.htm

 

And if the club has been so wonderfully run over the last five years why has the man who has been running it been replaced by the owner. Are you as thick as you sound?

[Fitzhugh Fella]

The past is another country, Duncan, they do things differently there (apologies to L.P. Hartley).

 

Those of us who grew up watching Saints before football became "corporate" have fond memories of when it appeared that the supporter had more of a connection with the club although I think that there's a touch of rose-tinted glasses here.

 

The ticket office at The Dell always seemed to think that they were doing you a huge favour by selling you a ticket. We put up with the awful toilets and rubbish catering and getting soaked on the terraces because we didn't know any better.

 

Football is now solely a business and the bottom line is what matters to the suits who run the clubs. So, I imaging that a couple of extra league places and the extra cash that brings in is more important than a cup run and a Europa League spot, neither of which generate much income.

 

There's no doubt that the Sky money has brought much better stadia and facilities but at the expense of the connection, real or imagined, that we used to feel with the club.

 

Personally, I regret the loss of red and white stripes and the replacement of the programme sellers with bimbos (no disrespect, ladies), but you pays your money and you takes your choice. One of the few benefits of growing old is experience and, having watched Saints since '58 (my dad used to lift me over the turnstile, couldn't get away with that now), I think that I prefer today.

 

 

Good post

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Not a historian of football eh - I will point you to a couple of recent independent reviews.

http://www.hagiologists.com/atsrev.htm

 

And if the club has been so wonderfully run over the last five years why has the man who has been running it been replaced by the owner. Are you as thick as you sound?

 

As a 'football historian' - can you remind us mere layman what has happened at the club in the past five years?

 

I was under the impression that Bottom of League 1 with -10 - to Top half of the Premier League in 5 seasons was a pretty good thing.

 

Imagine what could have been achieved if the club were well run.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Duncan you keep going on about making the club £50k on book sales, that is chicken feed compared to the clubs finances,

If you stood back and considered you might understand why NC took a stand as as soon as anything goes against your opinion/wishes you do get pretty tetchy. i suspect you will give me a blast but I dont think that your OP is fair and your post to Viking does you any favours. Just my view of course.

 

isn't it time Old Nick became Old Woman? You're certainly starting to sound like one.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

As a 'football historian' - can you remind us mere layman what has happened at the club in the past five years?

 

I was under the impression that Bottom of League 1 with -10 - to Top half of the Premier League in 5 seasons was a pretty good thing.

 

Imagine what could have been achieved if the club were well run.

 

I have already acknowledged the on field progress which has been marvellous (helped by spending a fair bit of money btw), but off the pitch very much less so. One day the fans will revolt and just stay away. I thought it so ironic on Saturday when the BT commentator was bemoaning the sub 17,000 attendance. He was completely oblivious to the fact that the early kick off for the sole benefit of plastic armchair spectators meant some fans (esp from Southampton) didn't bother. Less fans = less atmosphere = nervous television execs. It has already been mentioned on this thread but football started going downhill when clubs became less reliant on gate receipts because of sponsorship, tv revenue etc. That's all very well but you can't buy atmosphere despite what Man Utd are doing.

[OldNick]

Not a historian of football eh - I will point you to a couple of recent independent reviews.

http://www.hagiologists.com/atsrev.htm

 

And if the club has been so wonderfully run over the last five years why has the man who has been running it been replaced by the owner. Are you as thick as you sound?

I think you should not be so sensitive about your book, the majority think it is great including myself.

Perhaps being the clubs historian in the past you were given privilages that may not be there anymore, therefore you feel a sense of loss that the majority of fans do not feel. I have gone along to watch Saints for decades and never been invited for any event (without paying) or given access to areas that you doubt have. it is naive to think that the club has ever been run for anything less than profit and an old boys club until we had the Liebherrs who have run the business correctly. I respect the fact that Marcus chose NC to do the work and whilst you have info that things were not 100% i suspect there was a tremendous bond between the 2 and Ml might not have wished for NC to be replaced. Time will tell whether that decision (getting rid of NC)was a major mistake, i worry that Kl may not be as shrewd as Nc especially when dealing with transfers out. her instant turning by appeasing the fans re some small issues show she may not be too hard nosed

[OldNick]

isn't it time Old Nick became Old Woman? You're certainly starting to sound like one.

A bit sexist, you are not showing your best side.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I have already acknowledged the on field progress which has been marvellous (helped by spending a fair bit of money btw), but off the pitch very much less so. One day the fans will revolt and just stay away. I thought it so ironic on Saturday when the BT commentator was bemoaning the sub 17,000 attendance. He was completely oblivious to the fact that the early kick off for the sole benefit of plastic armchair spectators meant some fans (esp from Southampton) didn't bother. Less fans = less atmosphere = nervous television execs. It has already been mentioned on this thread but football started going downhill when clubs became less reliant on gate receipts because of sponsorship, tv revenue etc. That's all very well but you can't buy atmosphere despite what Man Utd are doing.

 

No doubt the financial backing helped, but it still has to be used well. Look how many clubs have thrown money around and it's gotten them no where. Look how much Leicester threw at it the season we got promoted. Them and West Ham blew us out the water in terms of spending that season - and yet neither managed to do better than us in the league. So yes, money certainly helps, but you have to use it in the right way - which is part of the running of the club surely.

 

I'm just not entirely sure what it is you want mate. You clearly care about the club a great deal, but from where I am sat - your problems lie with football as a whole, not just Saints. What do you want Saints to do realistically? I suspect in many fans, there is an element of Rose-Tinted specs about the past. People will always complain that things aren't like they were, things change and people rarely like this. I'm sure in 20/30 years I will do the same, and if I have kids they will do the same in turn.

[once_bitterne]

First Lowe, then Cortese and now working on KL. The tabloid Newspaper's favourite 'pink jacketed militant' certainly seems on a mission to fall out with every person pulling the strings at SMS.

 

I guess that's what you get for living your life in the past.

[tajjuk]

I don't really understand the point being made, if the club are being run with just business in in then a cup run is profitable as is Europa league qualification, more prize money, more games, more gates, more profile raised etc.

 

Now I could understand a business decision abandoning the cups if you are in a relegation battle because the difference between staying in the premier league and not can't be made up by cup runs, but not finishing 11th or 7th and the cups.

 

So the actual resting of players etc doesn't really support the OP's theory.

 

 

All Saturday told me is that whilst we probably have a better first eleven than all but about 6 or 7 clubs in this league, once we get outside the regular 15 players we have used all season our back ups are fairly poor.

 

Whereas Sunderland who have had a rather haphazard transfer policy over the last couple of years have a better first eleven than us the other 10 to 12 players that don't make their starting line up are not much worse and probably better than our back ups.

 

Someone did notice that Sunderland made 9 changes yeh? that they are still in the relegation zone and that whilst we had a hard fought away win against a Hull team are very strong at home, Sunderland didn't have a mid week game.

[once_bitterne]

I don't really understand the point being made, if the club are being run with just business in in then a cup run is profitable as is Europa league qualification, more prize money, more games, more gates, more profile raised etc.

 

Now I could understand a business decision abandoning the cups if you are in a relegation battle because the difference between staying in the premier league and not can't be made up by cup runs, but not finishing 11th or 7th and the cups.

 

So the actual resting of players etc doesn't really support the OP's theory.

 

 

All Saturday told me is that whilst we probably have a better first eleven than all but about 6 or 7 clubs in this league, once we get outside the regular 15 players we have used all season our back ups are fairly poor.

 

Whereas Sunderland who have had a rather haphazard transfer policy over the last couple of years have a better first eleven than us the other 10 to 12 players that don't make their starting line up are not much worse and probably better than our back ups.

 

Someone did notice that Sunderland made 9 changes yeh? that they are still in the relegation zone and that whilst we had a hard fought away win against a Hull team are very strong at home, Sunderland didn't have a mid week game.

 

The point that is being made is that isn't it terrible that it's not the 1970s anymore.

 

Which I guess is par for the course from a Trade Unionist.

[Sour Mash]

I don't really understand the point being made, if the club are being run with just business in in then a cup run is profitable as is Europa league qualification, more prize money, more games, more gates, more profile raised etc.

 

Now I could understand a business decision abandoning the cups if you are in a relegation battle because the difference between staying in the premier league and not can't be made up by cup runs, but not finishing 11th or 7th and the cups.

 

So the actual resting of players etc doesn't really support the OP's theory.

 

 

All Saturday told me is that whilst we probably have a better first eleven than all but about 6 or 7 clubs in this league, once we get outside the regular 15 players we have used all season our back ups are fairly poor.

 

Whereas Sunderland who have had a rather haphazard transfer policy over the last couple of years have a better first eleven than us the other 10 to 12 players that don't make their starting line up are not much worse and probably better than our back ups.

 

Someone did notice that Sunderland made 9 changes yeh? that they are still in the relegation zone and that whilst we had a hard fought away win against a Hull team are very strong at home, Sunderland didn't have a mid week game.

Well I don't understand what your point is. Are you saying that the club isn't 100% business focused now? That clubs don't now prioritise the league over cups, partly due to financial concerns?

[Smirking_Saint]

Is there ever a time that Duncan doesnt throw his toys out of the pram ?!

 

I remember his so called glory days, under Lowe, a club ran for the fans....... Didnt stop you moaning every five minutes though.

 

Then KL was glorious, she brought back the parking charges, she reinvigorated your bank account by stocking the book in the club shop. Now she is a heathen that cares not for the wishes of us poor Saints fans.

 

Having sat back and thought about the dissapointment I felt Saturday it was more an abject performance of the team on the pitch then anything else. It wasstrong enough, especially to overcome a bottom table dide who had made 9 changes and despite a few mistakes it took a barnstormer of a goal to beat us. It wasnt thrown, thats rediculous, it was a mistake.

 

So there you go, I responded to this OTT thread, and its laughable that FF has the nerve to call OldNick an old woman after his tantrum filled thread.

[saint1977]

I think some consistency is called for, much as I usually like FF's posts. Hasn't KL and her advisors given ground on several of the issues that a minority of posters were upset about e.g. parking charges, friction with Franny/MLT, stock in the shop, alleged attitude towards sub-contractors etc? I can't see how the club can be criticised for MP's dreadful team choices on Saturday and lack of drive to win the FA Cup, he is in charge of all matters first team as manager and rightly so, nor Lambert missing an open goal that a 90 year old could have scored. My one frustration is that we didn't get a loan striker in the window with Sam Gallagher's situation but I don't know all of the facts there and perhaps neither did the club.

[holepuncture]

This is going to be a slightly controversial post, but imo since the Liebherr family took over, the club stopped being run "for the fans". Instead it is run for the good of the "business". Normally the two go hand in hand but occasionally, there are times, like yesterday when there is a conflict of interest or a diversity of ambition.

 

The events at the Stadium of Light have most probably thrown up the most discord on this forum since a Cortese inspired Liebherr bandwagon trampled the flawed Le Tissier dream ticket consortium into oblivion and swept into town to take over. Gawd we were all so grateful. Me included.

 

I said at the time it is great to be rescued and to have real money at our fingertips (and what a five years we have had), but gone forever are the days where the fans priorities and dreams are a priority. Even Lowe had to keep one eye on keeping the fans happy.

 

No one in charge at SMS really genuinely cares about our stripes, our traditions or our history. It remains a money making machine that will be sold or kept according to market forces. The fans dreams and hopes are mere side issues. We are supporting a company who happen to be based in our city and there is no going back.

 

So who is going to Upton Park?

 

IIRC there was some debate towards the end of the last season as to the final PL places and how much each position upwards is worth to a club.

 

So, I guess the opportunity cost is, [1] a punt on the cup could yield £1-3m in additional revenue, [2] or a punt on 6/7/8/9th place could yield £2/3/5/9m additional revenue

 

If you were a magic circle firm advising KL, then option two is the only definate opportunity, with the greater return.

 

MLG can you confirm?

 

It was like that long before the Liebherrs were here just like most other clubs.

 

Indeed it has, though I think Saints fans have a better perspective than many though due to our 27 PL years, the PLC reverse takeover, the admins and the pheonix from League 1.

 

Put another way, whilst we have experienced the above, I have many plastic friends who have spent the last ten years doing nothing other than gobbing off about Man Utd, Fergie, Van Nistlerooy and Rooney!

 

This guy called it:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Scholar

 

Disagree - before Marcus Liebherr bought the club Turkish, the people who ran it were accountable. Ok not to the fans wholly, the shareholders were the gods, but some of them were fans and that is why Lowe finally faltered. I think the Liebherr family have been good owners, no great owners but the truth remains, as fans we no longer have any influence. Cortese could not give a **** about us and I doubt Katharina is losing too much sleep over yesterday's events.

 

But was that a good thing?

 

Chorley and the gang mouthing off on soap boxes, thirty peices of silver being thrown at Lowe (... what a thought LOL), public power struggles between the major shareholders some of whom were fans, all whilst watching the share value plummet from 50p to 9p as a result of the circus on and off the pitch!

 

I have no doubt NC or KL are/were too worried about the fans feelings, though at least with NC we had a shared agenda, him taking his cash was his side of the deal, happy-clappy fans and back-to-back promotions was our side of the deal. KL dosent need cash.

 

With KL in the building, surrounded by the magic circle etc, it feels a little more corporate, like the old SLH days but without the fan on the board mentality, or those thirty beautiful pieces of silver slapping Lowe in the face.

 

That plastic veneer may be getting shinier by the day, though we are in a much better place than I have known before. IMO.

[hypochondriac]

I think some consistency is called for, much as I usually like FF's posts. Hasn't KL and her advisors given ground on several of the issues that a minority of posters were upset about e.g. parking charges, friction with Franny/MLT, stock in the shop, alleged attitude towards sub-contractors etc? I can't see how the club can be criticised for MP's dreadful team choices on Saturday and lack of drive to win the FA Cup, he is in charge of all matters first team as manager and rightly so, nor Lambert missing an open goal that a 90 year old could have scored. My one frustration is that we didn't get a loan striker in the window with Sam Gallagher's situation but I don't know all of the facts there and perhaps neither did the club.

 

 

Exactly! I just do not see why these comments are warranted when directed at Katherina. What has she done?

[Turkish]

The club hasn't been run for the fans for a long time. FF seems to be conveniently forgetting Lowe closing the curtains to the fans protesting outside, the appointment of Woodward, the appointment of Stuart gray, Wigley and Sturrock, the sacking of Pearson, the entire Northam standing singing 'spend some f*cking money' in the first few days at SMS.

 

If the Liebherrs didn't give a toss about us then Cortese would still be here running riot. The fact that they put a stop to it and what with the summer rumours suggests they've been trying to address issues for some time.

 

Football isn't run for fans anymore it's a multi million business but all things conferred we've done pretty well having the liebhers own us.

[manji]

This about 5 mins after the club decided to stock his books which was all he cared about a couple of weeks ago. The guy seems to look for division everywhere he goes.

Spot on.

[melmacian_saint]

Posted this a while back and not the same and don't think it will be as bad but the PL clubs are showing many of the signs that led to the decline of the Spanish league.

 

Floating in money, many had extravagant nouveau riche shareholders (which came from a move towards a Private Limited Company model in the professional leagues in the early 90s) and managerial changes were (in some ways still are) extremely often even in teams that weren't doing very badly. Eventually you had expensive, good-on-paper teams full of imports from other leagues (mainly from South America) that really didn't add that much, ditto for coaches (Spanish managers were never really in charge of signings or other club aspects than tactics and team selection/training , the trend in England shows a similar behavior with head coaches being appointed rather than "managers"), and a national team that was underachieving despite the success of the league where some of the stars were indeed Spanish (read England today).

 

Eventually some odd relegations happened (read Celta Vigo, Zaragoza, Betis, Atletico Madrid, Sevilla, Real Sociedad), debts accumulated and when the call came a vast number of clubs crumbled Pompey-style.

 

Of course a lot of it came from the overall economic collapse of the country, with clubs (and in many cases owners) excessively reliant on loans from regional credit unions that failed spectacularly as a result of the housing bubble.

But I feel a similar analogy can be drawn with TV money and the investment that it drives. In this case I'd think the risk is smaller in a macro perspective, but much higher in an industry/sector perspective as the TV income dependance is significant as a result of the "global" repercussion of the PL and the technological development the means of live, free broadcasting are ever increasing, and live broadcast sports will become a mass market. Eventually, much like music players and downloading, it will be either that (possibly still illegal, but hard to control and certainly the loss revenue for professional football leagues is getting bigger by the hour??) or an iTunes-style 0.99p per football match process (eventually it will be more worth it than charging TV memberships).

 

This could drive all other revenues (and ultimately costs) down (including the absurd player wages), meaning that some of the perceived "appeal" maybe lost, and the whole model based on attractiveness for global players and other tycoons will be lost (for local ones it is still a great source of income!).

One could suspect he will be getting what he paid for in many ways (though eventually match ticket prices may show the similar severe discrimination pattern as a high-priced, quick-selling good concert vs. perhaps free, not-so-well-known concert, maybe in the same league!?).

The point is, unless he is a fan with strong sentiments for a club/league (a mere niche segment, shall we call it) those Watanabe sans in Japan will probably eventually realize they are only marginally more pleased with paying to watch a match of the PL live on TV (not the match itself!) than paying to watch something else via the same mean. It's like broadcasting concerts and charging a membership for it. Bar from a few, it really isn't a money spinner (many suggesting it could be though? I'm sure it won't be as much as football charges today)

 

A warning if there ever was one, not that Scudamore will care. Meanwhile the football agents (i.e. the football bubble version of the property developers of the pre 2008 global recession) rejoice. Not for long.

[Viking Warrior]

WELL Duncan you said your post was going to be controversial

 

Certainly is , and you cannot the masses to subscribe to your various points

 

now on to your somewhat bullying insults, I have my opinion and you have yours, Some aspects of what you have said I accept ,

Oh and Im not some cyber warrior , You know who I am and we have shared a pint in the past, You will also know my passion for the club

 

anyway

 

Bandwagon Bob, your ignorance is breath taking. Firstly I have not said I want a club run for the fans or by the fans just a little more recognition. Please be good enough to actually read what I say before hitching your skirt to the bandwagon of ignorance.

 

 

My sir , what wonderful words of wisdom you spout I have re read your post and your other posts, you make reference to take on the needs of the fans and accoutability

Would you like us to become a leeds , cardiff , Porstmouth. I understand the point yoiu were making though, but I am not a bandwagon bob.

 

No one is talking revolution - you made that up in your own little head, it must be the long dark nights up there.

 

You put a controversial post up , So maybe you have taken my comment about revoultion slightly out of context. Ps nothing to do with long nights

I am really glad you are pleased at the way the club is being run - presumably you are privy to all meetings and decisions or is that just blind faith on your part?

 

Oh and I should be honoured that my book is now being allowed back in the shop, making the club money, adding to the 50 grand that Hagiology books have already made the club. I am so lucky, thank you for pointing that out, I had completely forgotten.

 

Im pleased the hali books are being sold in the club , The point I was making is that Since NC left the owners have taken on board the issues about fans etc.

You whinged on about the books not being sold etc

 

Check my facts? - that is rich coming from a twerp like you who can't even type, spell or construct a sentence. You are not related by any chance to that old hag that used to sit at the bottom of the guillotine during the French Revolution cackling every time another head hit the basket?

 

PS Duncan I am offended you come out with the words a little twerp, etc, I find that pretty offensive, its no big issue though, But then sometimes you come across as a barrack room lawyer, or a seventies trade Union rep . At least do the decent thing and accept each of us have differing opinions, The spelling mistakes occur when you type from an I Phone, but I will enrol in your English Classes next termRegards

 

Mike

Edited 17 February, 2014 by Viking Warrior

[dronskisaint]

The club hasn't been run for the fans for a long time. FF seems to be conveniently forgetting Lowe closing the curtains to the fans protesting outside, the appointment of Woodward, the appointment of Stuart gray, Wigley and Sturrock, the sacking of Pearson, the entire Northam standing singing 'spend some f*cking money' in the first few days at SMS.

 

If the Liebherrs didn't give a toss about us then Cortese would still be here running riot. The fact that they put a stop to it and what with the summer rumours suggests they've been trying to address issues for some t

 

Football isn't run for fans anymore it's a multi million business but all things conferred we've done pretty well having the liebhers own us.

 

Good post, I can remember chanting some along with the vitriol against Lowe, the fury at Branfoot but ultimately (I think..in my opinion etc) the average Saints fan just wants to enjoy the match day experience, not be wound up by perceived injustices that we can't (and almost never have been able to) control. A winning (mostly) team provides that,,for me. Not sure I want much more say than that in the club.

 

For me...with a couple of dumbstruck exceptions (AP, NA, NC sackings) the last five years have been largely like this