Lazlo78 Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere on here: http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2014/01/features/the-winning-formula "Prozone wasn't part of the culture of the game and most managers weren't used to it," Wilson says. "I was naïve but I couldn't understand why they didn't want this kind of information." Once, just before an August 2005 football league Championship game between Luton Town and Southampton, Wilson gave a pre-match briefing to the team and the manager, at the time, Harry Redknapp. "Harry was more intuitive than analytical," says Wilson. "He was nervous about overloading the players with information." Southampton lost 3-2. On the team bus, Redknapp turned to Wilson and said, "I'll tell you what, next week, why don't we get your computer to play against their computer and see who wins?" Ha Some managers, however, did get it -- and one in particular was Clive Woodward. He had been the coach of England's World Cup-winning rugby team in 2003, and in 2005 had been offered a one-year contract to serve as Southampton's director of football. He had been the first coach to adapt Prozone to rugby, installing it at Twickenham four years before the World Cup, which allowed him to collect data on how England and its opponents played. "When I first saw it I was fascinated because I'd never seen a game where you're looking down and just see dots and data and movement," Woodward says. "It removed a lot of the preconceived notions we had about how other teams played. It made a big difference when we started to see them as data, as opposed to teams we had never beaten before." Once, after his players insisted that there was no space on the field to run into, Woodward took a printout of a Prozone freeze-frame taken 24 seconds into a match against France. It showed both teams around the ball in a small area on the pitch and acres of unoccupied space everywhere else. He stuck it on board with the message: "The space is the green stuff". "Clive would challenge me at every level," says Wilson about Woodward's time at Southampton. "He would ask questions about every aspect of the game: why do we spend so much time working out how to score goals and not how to stop them? I would try to explain to him what they're doing and he'd just keep asking why." Woodward and Wilson tried things such as filming players striking the ball, to study technique from a biomechanical perspective. Those initiatives, however, never had much impact. Redknapp left before the end of the year and Woodward departed at the end of his contract. Wilson had left the club shortly before Woodward, convinced that there was a better way of running a club. "Woodward believed that evidence, be it video or statistics or any kind of data, was fundamental to how you prepare a team," Wilson says. Woodward remains his biggest influence. "He taught me that we didn't have to do things just because they had always been done in a certain way." I hope we're ready for progress this time around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 It isn't progress now it's common sense and all stuff the club and coaching staff do. Like most prem clubs Saints analyse a hell of a lot of data and use the latest sports science. People can mock Woodward all they want but it's the likes of Redknapp that annoy me more, refusing to accept change and anything that might complicate the job. To him it's always simple, you buy good players and sit back. Awful coach and one of the most inconsistent contradictory people I've experienced in my time following football. Amazed he's still managing. Thought being replaced by AVB then the job going to Sherwood would have wound him up too much. Don't agree. Harry's a good manager and Woodward was in wrong sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 It isn't progress now it's common sense and all stuff the club and coaching staff do. Like most prem clubs Saints analyse a hell of a lot of data and use the latest sports science. People can mock Woodward all they want but it's the likes of Redknapp that annoy me more, refusing to accept change and anything that might complicate the job. To him it's always simple, you buy good players and sit back. Awful coach and one of the most inconsistent contradictory people I've experienced in my time following football. Amazed he's still managing. Thought being replaced by AVB then the job going to Sherwood would have wound him up too much. The thing is, there is a certain degree of talent and latent instinct here. If management could be reduced to pure statistics and theory then the drop in performance of Manchester United under David Moyes would be easily rectified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plumstead_Saint Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Don't agree. Harry's a good manager Please offer some evidence for this view. IMHO he is crap, as he showed when failing to keep us up by hiring in a load of old lags on expensive wages. Just like he did at QPR - that ended in failure too. What has he won, and what has he achieved as a manager? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 It isn't progress now it's common sense and all stuff the club and coaching staff do. Like most prem clubs Saints analyse a hell of a lot of data and use the latest sports science. People can mock Woodward all they want but it's the likes of Redknapp that annoy me more, refusing to accept change and anything that might complicate the job. To him it's always simple, you buy good players and sit back. Awful coach and one of the most inconsistent contradictory people I've experienced in my time following football. Amazed he's still managing. Thought being replaced by AVB then the job going to Sherwood would have wound him up too much. So despite being very successful your amazed hecis still coaching ? He is a motivator, a dealer and yes very old school. If I was in his position Id rather have any information available to me to get the job done. If it improves the team by .5% then thats still an improvement. Saying that HR is a poor manager is just short sighted, simpleton nonesense brought on by the fact that because we are saints fans we are supposed to despise him despite the real villain of the piece being Lowe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supersubpuckett Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Redknapp and Woodward were both right as managing a team is a blend of intuition and science - not exclusively one or the other. If they had had greater respect for each others relative strengths then we may have done far better that season. All water under the bridge now though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Please offer some evidence for this view. IMHO he is crap, as he showed when failing to keep us up by hiring in a load of old lags on expensive wages. Just like he did at QPR - that ended in failure too. What has he won, and what has he achieved as a manager? Promotion with Bournemouth to the second tier for the first time ever. Took west ham into Europe via a fifth placed finish, which is equal saints second best ever top flight finish. Promotion with Pompey to the premier league, keeping them there and winning the FA cup. Taking spurs into the champion league for the first time ever. There's your evidence pal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Please offer some evidence for this view. IMHO he is crap, as he showed when failing to keep us up by hiring in a load of old lags on expensive wages. Just like he did at QPR - that ended in failure too. What has he won, and what has he achieved as a manager? FA Cup, top four with Spurs, top 6 consistently with Spurs, solid top half and Europe with Pompey and West Ham. Promotion from Championship with Pompey and almost certainly QPR. Bournemouth to unheard of heights ( until 30 years later). That's what he's won and achieved. Any further questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faz Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 FA Cup, top four with Spurs, top 6 consistently with Spurs, solid top half and Europe with Pompey and West Ham. Promotion from Championship with Pompey and almost certainly QPR. Bournemouth to unheard of heights ( until 30 years later). That's what he's won and achieved. Any further questions? Would you want him back here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 (edited) Would you want him back here? Doesn't make him a bad manager. Next. Here's one for you. Name another current manager outside of a top 4 club with a better record. Edited 26 January, 2014 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joensuu Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Henry is an awful manager. When he's been given money to spend he sometimes succeeds, cf. FA Cup, promotion from championship and achievements with Spurs. Sometimes even ridiculous money can't mask his tactical naivety, c.f QPR. Without money he seems utterly useless. I'd love to know how he somehow succeeded at Bournemouth. Did they have some good coaches advising him? I felt at the time that SCW was a move in the right direction, but that Henry was too much of a dinosaur for it ever to work. Probably not an experiment to test when dicing with relegation, but definitely the right move had we been more stable with a sharper manager at the helm. Like, say, us now. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Would you want him back here? No. I answered the question posed, and now I've answered yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Ahhh i see. If you take out his promotions with Bournemouth and Pompey, his FA cup win, his taking west ham to fifth, his champions league qualification and quarter final (?) appearances with spurs for the first time ever and top 6 finishes. If you take that out, he's a terrible manager. Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamesaint Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 FA Cup, top four with Spurs, top 6 consistently with Spurs, solid top half and Europe with Pompey and West Ham. Promotion from Championship with Pompey and almost certainly QPR. Bournemouth to unheard of heights ( until 30 years later). That's what he's won and achieved. Any further questions? LOL. QPR almost certainly promoted!! You really are grasping at straws aren't you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamesaint Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Ahhh i see. If you take out his promotions with Bournemouth and Pompey, his FA cup win, his taking west ham to fifth, his champions league qualification and quarter final (?) appearances with spurs for the first time ever and top 6 finishes. If you take that out, he's a terrible manager. Gotcha. Hardly a stellar record for somone with 30 odd years in football management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 (edited) LOL. QPR almost certainly promoted!! You really are grasping at straws aren't you. Not really. Take it out then. Still an excellent record. Hardly a stellar record for somone with 30 odd years in football management. Well, yes it is. Who are all these British managers with so much better records over the last thirty years? Certainly better than any other manager we have ever had. Edited 26 January, 2014 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Hardly a stellar record for somone with 30 odd years in football management. Name a current one outside the top 4 clubs who has done better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamesaint Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Not really. Take it out then. Still an excellent record. Well, yes it is. Who are all these British managers with so much better records over the last thirty years? Certainly better than any manager we have ever had. Joe Royle was a contemporary of Redknpp's. He won the FA up. He took Oldham as a second division team to a League Cup final. He won promotion with Oldham and Man City. His record is better than Rednapp's - and he didn't have to manage for a generation and a half to build up his record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 (edited) Joe Royle was a contemporary of Redknpp's. He won the FA up. He took Oldham as a second division team to a League Cup final. He won promotion with Oldham and Man City. His record is better than Rednapp's - and he didn't have to manage for a generation and a half to build up his record. Joe Royle's astonishing achievement of finishing top six one whole time, his relegation of Man City and his abject failure to take Ipswich back up are the hallmarks of a truly "stellar" career in management. And the fact he couldn't get arrested after that (apart from going back to Oldham) only prove how truly, truly outstanding he was. Not one of those managers who are rubbish and keep getting jobs at top flight clubs. Not Stellar Joe Royle. Okay, that's one name. Joe Royle, unquestionably one of Britains finest ever managers. But you must have loads more, right? Must be tripping off the tongue. Edited 26 January, 2014 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnailOB Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Joe Royle's astonishing achievement of finishing top six one whole time, his relegation of Man City and his abject failure to take Ipswich back up are the hallmarks if a truly "stellar" career in management. And the fact he couldn't get arrested after that (apart from going back to Oldham) only prove how truly, truly outstanding he was. Not one of those managers who are rubbish and keep getting jobs at top flight clubs. Not Stellar Joe Royle. Okay, that's one name. Joe Royle, unquestionably one of Britains finest ever managers. But you must have loads more, right? Must be tripping off the tongue. Does Martin O'Neil count ? Unfashionable Leicester, League cup winners twice and runners up once. Promotion to Premier League. Don't believe he left the club in financial dire straights either. No suggestion that he overspent / spent money that wasn't there in order to achieve his success. If you take Harrys success at Bournemouth then I suppose you could compare him with Lambert at Norwich who achieved back to back promotions in what some would consider a more difficult era. If you want to look at his F.A. cup win with Portsmouth (who are still dealing with the problems of that 'success') then you can look at Martin O'Neil with Leicester in the League Cup. Although must be noted that With regards to F.A. Cup, in the last 30 years I don't think there are many teams outside of top 4 who have actually won it so it was a good achievement (although level of finalist helped). His work at West Ham was mentioned although I believe a lot of West Ham fans would question how successful his time there actually was. Then there is Tottenham - who to be fair are not really one of the small clubs. Harry appeared to be doing a good job there BUT if he was such a 'success', then why was he moved on ? I think his current club gives a better insight into how good he is now. Last season he had quite a while to put things right for QPR and he spent once again A LOT of money but still achieved relegation. If you compare him to Pulis at Crystal Palace, Pulis has come in and changed CPs results around immediately and has taken them out of the relegation zone. IF Palace survive - would you then consider Pulis a better manager than Harry ? I suppose depends on your definition of success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Martn O'Neill definitely counts and is the only one I could name who has a comparable record to Redknapp. Excellent at Leicester and Villa and a decent Euro record with Celtic. He suffers from being, like old Saggy chops, someone the general dinlows on this forum have decided is terrible regardless of facts. Which is why Tamesaint is desperately quoting Joe Royle instead of more obvious names like O'Neill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnailOB Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Martn O'Neill definitely counts and is the only one I could name who has a comparable record to Redknapp. Excellent at Leicester and Villa and a decent Euro record with Celtic. He suffers from being, like old Saggy chops, someone the general dinlows on this forum have decided is terrible regardless of facts. Which is why Tamesaint is desperately quoting Joe Royle instead of more obvious names like O'Neill. Another 'debatable' call - Steve McClaren ? At Middlesbrough won league cup and reached UEFA Cup final. Went on to become England manager, but like most England managers succumbed to the pressure and ultimately failed. Re-invented himself at Twente and won their first ever title (not many English/British managers work let alone succeed overseas) Now re-inventing himself again at Derby and doing quite well. (To be fair i'm struggling to convince myself, I know a number of 'Boro fans and they didn't rate him that highly) If you were to compare McClaren with Redknapp then really we needed to see how Harry would have coped with the England job. I suppose the same could be said about Keegan and Taylor. All quite good club managers but totally ruined after taking the England job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Redknapp used sports science at pompey and Spurs. I think at Saints he just resented having a rugby coach and his buddies imposed on him by a d!ck-head chairman, if Redknapp was backed and allowed to do things his way we probably would have stuffed Luton. I went to that game and remember saying how all the players, manager, everyone just looked p!ssed off. We had a decent squad that season and would have bounced back straight away if managed properly. All this sport science could have added an extra 0.5% to the players performances, being a happy squad all working together and playing for each other would have added 25%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Manager with a better record than Redknapp? Walter Smith. A few months younger, but in his (10 years shorter) managerial career he won 11 league titles and 13 cups. He won the Scottish title with Rangers 9 seasons in a row, signed the likes of Gascoigne and Amoruso, almost took them to the Champions League final in 1993 and got them to the UEFA Cup Final in 2008. Also successful at Scotland, reshaping the shambles of a squad that Berti Vogts had cobbled together. People may say that he had a poor spell at Everton as well but with no money to spend, his best players being sold from underneath him (and also behind his back in Duncan Ferguson's case) and a pretty poor squad inherited from walking shambles Howard Kendall, he did surprisingly well - avoiding relegation despite the odds. He's also incredibly highly thought of by Sir Alex Ferguson, who hired Smith as his assistant for the World Cup in 86 (?) and also at Man Utd in the early 2000s, where he helped them win the FA Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamesaint Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 I see the great CB Fry has struck again. "No manager has a better record that Redknapp" apart from Joe Royle and Martin O'Neill and Steve mcClaren and Walter Smith I think CB Fry is auditioning for a part in "Life of Brian." LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 I see the great CB Fry has struck again. "No manager has a better record that Redknapp" apart from Joe Royle and Martin O'Neill and Steve mcClaren and Walter Smith I think CB Fry is auditioning for a part in "Life of Brian." LOL Where is that supposed quote from me from? Do show. Joe Royle and McClaren don't have better records. Smith couldn't hack the Premier League. O'Neill is one. Not better, just about as good. Who are these other stellar managers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Steve McClaren's last job: assistant to H Redknapp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 I suspect Howard Kendall did a fantastic job, I think he won the the league title and FA cup and more in a short period. Ok that was about 30years ago but. HR was in his job then. I was fully supportive of HR when here,and felt we would have made the playoffs in the first season down if he had stayed. The fans fans had turned and he saw the writing on the wall and jumped ship. I think we were in the play off places at the time. The deplorable way we treated players like Fuller did not help. We had been in the top tier so long the patience of the fans was low and unlike now we were not easily pleased. HR does need to spend, it is for various reasons of that I'm sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicestersaint Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 How anyone can think Redknapp is a good manager after what he did to us is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Harry Redknapp might be our pantomime villain, but his managerial record is fairly decent and as others have said whilst he might not be one of the top stellar managers, he is some way up the managerial list. IMHO there's certainly more managers below him than above him if you could come up with a league table. I think our view is tainted by his Portsmuff connections and also the debacle that was his tenure here with us. He came on a rebound, was never the right man for the job and was asked to work in a culture and set up that was alien to his method of operating. Woodward probably wasn't a bad shout when taken in isolation, but combine it with the context of restructuring following relegation and having to work alongside Redknapp, it was always going to be an uphill task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 How anyone can think Redknapp is a good manager after what he did to us is beyond me. Pretty easy to seperate the two things. Was in a london cab on friday telling the QPR cabbie how much I despise the man. You can do that and still accept he has a far superior record than Joe freaking Royle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 Sir Dave Brailsford and British Cycling are a success story in this area. They've had a hell of a lot of money invested into them and spent it in the right way. The results speak for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 (edited) I see the great CB Fry has struck again. "No manager has a better record that Redknapp" apart from Joe Royle and Martin O'Neill and Steve mcClaren and Walter Smith I think CB Fry is auditioning for a part in "Life of Brian." LOL Have you intentionally completely missed the point here or are you really just that thick ? Edited 26 January, 2014 by Smirking_Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 26 January, 2014 Share Posted 26 January, 2014 How anyone can think Redknapp is a good manager after what he did to us is beyond me. Its not really that hard to work out if you bother looking past the 'Im a saints fan I must hate Redknapp' bandwaggoning. Besides, if you knew the half of it you would hate Lowe a hell of a lot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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